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Christianity [OT] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
The “orthodoxy” sure seems quiet.

With all respect and charity, Sax, maybe I'm expecting a Christian thread to be kind of like a church. The sort of church where you get welcomed at the door and treated with respect and care and love, like every church of every denomination I have ever been to.

If I ever come across a church where I get yelled at and denounced before my second foot is over the threshold, then maybe I'm not going to come back.

We're not here to be punching bags basically.
 
That's the problem. All the "church" wants is your tithes and offerings. They obviously don't care about your salvation if sin is openly allowed IN THE CHURCH. its nonsense. The only reason I denounce the catholics is because its a false religion. Before speaking harshly, if you even want to call truth being harsh, I asked questions. They have no answers based on scripture. Its no different than the tactics jehovahs witnesses use but just on a greater scale. When Christ was telling people to stop sinning would you have considered that harsh too? When He called the Pharisees I believe it was sons of the devil, was he being harsh? The catholic church is built on practices that Christ would be disgusted with. And if we are to judge the church since this is the title they have decided to co-op for themselves, but not only that, go as far as taking the moniker of Christ and claiming to be THE church that "Christianity" should follow, I'm gonna go ahead and give that a NOPE as many others that aren't brainwashed by the false fathers would, are, will and will continue to do so.
 

VAL0R

Banned
phisheep phisheep , Sax has basically been an ignorant troll since this thread started. His big mouth crossed the threshold a long time ago. That's why nobody bothers answering his bait.
 
That's the problem. All the "church" wants is your tithes and offerings. They obviously don't care about your salvation if sin is openly allowed IN THE CHURCH. its nonsense. The only reason I denounce the catholics is because its a false religion. Before speaking harshly, if you even want to call truth being harsh, I asked questions. They have no answers based on scripture. Its no different than the tactics jehovahs witnesses use but just on a greater scale. When Christ was telling people to stop sinning would you have considered that harsh too? When He called the Pharisees I believe it was sons of the devil, was he being harsh? The catholic church is built on practices that Christ would be disgusted with. And if we are to judge the church since this is the title they have decided to co-op for themselves, but not only that, go as far as taking the moniker of Christ and claiming to be THE church that "Christianity" should follow, I'm gonna go ahead and give that a NOPE as many others that aren't brainwashed by the false fathers would, are, will and will continue to do so.

I'm non-denominational, and I'm with phisheep phisheep .

If you're just looking for a fight for the sake of a fight, then here's some scripture for you:

Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:4-5

Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matt 7:6
 
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Except the majority of their answers aren’t in scripture rendering them useless anyway.

Great understanding to be found here. I’ll leave it at that lest I throw pearls to swine.

“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:1-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
 
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Bolivar687

Banned
Lies. You don't answer because you don't have any based in scripture.

This is so outragously uncharitable. At this point, we've provided dozens and dozens of citations for theology, Christology, Mariology, the creation of the Church, the commission of the priesthood, and the institution of the Sacraments. It's one thing for you to disagree with our construction of the facts, but it's quite another thing entirely to outright deny that we've ever provided them.

For a long time, I've questioned whether you were serious or you were just trying to derail the thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you really believe this stuff and you think it's interesting but I'm not going to engage your posts any more and I strongly encourage everyone else to do the same.
 
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Barsinister

Banned
AngularSaxophone AngularSaxophone I think Christ could have a comment and throw down some fury regarding what some of us believe. I remember he spit fire at the money-changers in the temple. But, his was a righteous anger, in my opinion. He could not be wrong. We are, all of us, fallible. Maybe we could understand that in ourselves as well as others to get along as best we can? If you have all of the answers, what are you doing hanging around here? Go and start a church! After all, aren't we meant to preach the gospel? When the comet comes, tell Do and Rey I said, "Hi!"
 
This is so outragously uncharitable. At this point, we've provided dozens and dozens of citations for theology, Christology, Mariology, the creation of the Church, the commission of the priesthood, and the institution of the Sacraments. It's one thing for you to disagree with our construction of the facts, but it's quite another thing entirely to outright deny that we've ever provided them.

For a long time, I've questioned whether you were serious or you were just trying to derail the thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you really believe this stuff and you think it's interesting but I'm not going to engage your posts any more and I strongly encourage everyone else to do the same.

Yeah and the citations again are meaningless if they aren’t in scripture. Some of you take scripture as being “inspired by God” when that is incorrect. Scriptures were given to men by the Holy Spirit who is the spirit of truth. Once you start going by the thoughts of men, you aren’t going by spirit but men who’s word was never meant to be as a companion to scripture. The entire list of things you just gave, with the exception of one of the apostles starting the church, which again is a far cry from what the Catholic Church is anyway so even that gets striked down.

The last scripture I posted sets it absolutely undeniable as to Christ being the Son of God. You can’t post anything *solid* regarding Christ being God, you can’t post anything regarding Mary being the “Mother of God” nor the “Queen of heaven”, you can’t post anything regarding the taking of bread and wine being anywhere near what the Catholic Church has turned it into which is yet another stretch. There is no stretching the truth. It’s unnecessary. Call it whatever you want “harsh”, “unorthodox”, whatever but if we believe in Christ as the Son of God then this is church we’re having right here and any error should be debated, striked down and tossed out. If there is no debate, especially when it comes to theories of men then you are attempting to be God which you aren’t.
 
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Alright, I like the idea of this thread. I'm a newcomer and an atheist so here goes...

I began my young life as a Christian and probably transitioned into atheism sometime around college. I can't pinpoint an exact time, but it was brought on by a mixture of things including some toxic beliefs of my father surrounding race and sexuality that I just don't agree with, the dismissal of science, as well as some of the free-thinking and self-discovery that happened with living outside of my parents' household. The way that religion was taught to me was never presented as logical. It never had to justify why it is. It just was. Which is just about as far as I'm convinced it goes and I'm very interested to read into this thread more and see what comes of the discussion.

However, I'm also an atheist that disagrees that the world would be better off without the institution of religion. I certainly try not to insult people of faith and only really get into these types of situations where I feel as if someone is trying to dazzle me with the same argument that my younger self was originally unable to stand up and rebut. I understand that some people need religion. I understand that without it, several people lack the moral compass to make moral decisions. I think there's plenty of wise passages in the Bible. To that end, I appreciate some of the things that religion brings to the table.

I also think that I've personally outgrown religion. Not in simply an age sense, but in a sense that I expect more. If God created me that way, then I find it hard to suppress curiosity and skepticism for the proof evidenced in favor of some omniscient, omnipotent being. If there were something out there that was able to convince me, I've yet to see it. What's more is that the things presented as proof have left me more skeptical, even considering religion as a scam that relies on very vulnerable people in order to sustain itself. I also believe there are people out there that legitimately believe in God and do great things. Then we get into the altruism argument...whether a person of faith would still be inclined to be a decent and loving person if it weren't for the fear of what comes next and the dread that someone out there is penning a lifelong performance review based on their goodness.

Religion falls apart in so many ways for me. By the way it was taught. By the ways it's exploited for political or personal gain. By the way it rationalizes morality. Let's not forget the hundreds of other standing religions in the world and the major powers at play that have persisted throughout the age of man to make it the obvious prevailing choice of belief. Or the atrocities that have been committed in the names of many religions including Christianity.

I don't know. Where do we start?
 
welcome to the discussion. If you have questions that means you are seeking the kingdom which is good. What sets “Christianity” apart from other “religions” and I put both in quotes because Christ himself said the only religion there should be is helping widows, orphans and loving God and the term “Christian” isn’t even in any of the old text, Is that none of the others have a messiah, and none of the other sets of religious scripture are also books of Prophecy.

For the most part the crimes committed against humanity by the church™️ has been exclusively that. The Catholic Church. They are not God’s church as much as they’d like you to believe it. If you truly seek answers, read the Bible on your own with adult eyes. I’d start with the gospel (Matthew Mark Luke John) as you’ll get to know who Christ is. All else follows from there. If you go that far you’ll have an understanding of prayer and should be able to make your way through the rest of the book with a greater understanding and more answered questions. Go that far and all questions are answered along with understanding.

I myself have struggled with lust for women for a great part of my life and was just given a very clear answer yesterday about adultery. While one may view a divorced woman fair game, when you understand that it was God’s adversary who committed that first act by tempting Eve in the garden, you understand why and how it’s not from God and how the things that aren’t impact more than just the here and now. So while some say “do what you want as long as it isn’t hurting anyone” in reality theyre failing to view things outside of their own point of view which is pretty selfish IMO. But again, at the same time, that was me at one point in my life.
 
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Bolivar687

Banned
Ancient Gray Ancient Gray , great post. I'll take a stab at a few things.

1. Sorry to hear about your experiences growing up. What denomination? For what it's worth, racism is entirely incompatible with the facial text of Christianity.
"Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." (Acts 10:38). I don't know what your old man's beef was with sexuality but I think neuroscience and psychology show that there's tremendous value to chastity. And regarding denial of science - many of the greatest scientists in history come directly from the Catholic priesthood (Lemaitre, the proposer of the Big Bang Theory; Mendel, the father of genetics; Possibly Coepernicus, the proposer of heliocentrism). All of the leading thinkers of the scientific revolution cared and wrote about religion just as much, and in some cases more, than they ever did about science (Newton, Pascal, Descartes, Leibniz). Our whole Western tradition of reason and rationality derives from the work of Saint Thomas Aquinas.

2. I think the world would be far worse off without religion. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest provider of education, medicine, disaster relief, and overall human services, not just in the world today but throughout all of human history.

3. The existence of God is a philosophical argument, not a religious one. Aristotle and the ancient Greeks proposed the idea of the First Mover. Renee Descartes also offered a proof that was independent from his fervent Catholic faith. To me, it just does not seem like consciousness, creativity, civilization, logic, are naturally-occuring phenomenons. We live in a universe full of dead rocks and our planet is the only one with any real biodiversity; we have an enormous planet with a vast evolutionary timeline, but we're the only animal with each of these gifts, let alone all of them at the same time. The materialist argument is implausible.

4. Regarding "works of faith" - we don't do it because we expect a reward or worry about our life's inventory. We do good works because it's our duty, it's the least we can do out of gratitude to God. (Luke 17:10). The reward is the same regardless if you devoted your entire lifetime to God or only just the end. (Matthew 20).

5. You're right that there have been many religions throughout human history - I would argue that's anthropological proof positive of how important it is for human functioning.

6. The geopolitical and socio-cultural underpinnings of atrocity would persist even in the absence of religion. The explicitly atheist governments of the twentieth century slaughtered and starved more people than all wars of religion combined. France's anti-religious Reign of Terror killed more people than all of the Inquisitions across Europe combined. You cannot deny that the Crusades were a pre-emptive response to a violent, hegemonic Islam, who had destroyed the Persian Empire, and now besieged all of Europe in the East (the Turkish conquest of the Byzantine Empire), the West (The Moorish conquest of Spain) and the South, all along North Africa. Most of the accounts of atrocities are implausible stories by people who were born decades after the events - the sieges were largely in line with medieval warfare and have been revised downward as the evidence gets better. You should read the works of Thomas Madden for more.
 
Alright, I like the idea of this thread. I'm a newcomer and an atheist so here goes...

I began my young life as a Christian and probably transitioned into atheism sometime around college. I can't pinpoint an exact time, but it was brought on by a mixture of things including some toxic beliefs of my father surrounding race and sexuality that I just don't agree with, the dismissal of science, as well as some of the free-thinking and self-discovery that happened with living outside of my parents' household. The way that religion was taught to me was never presented as logical. It never had to justify why it is. It just was. Which is just about as far as I'm convinced it goes and I'm very interested to read into this thread more and see what comes of the discussion.

However, I'm also an atheist that disagrees that the world would be better off without the institution of religion. I certainly try not to insult people of faith and only really get into these types of situations where I feel as if someone is trying to dazzle me with the same argument that my younger self was originally unable to stand up and rebut. I understand that some people need religion. I understand that without it, several people lack the moral compass to make moral decisions. I think there's plenty of wise passages in the Bible. To that end, I appreciate some of the things that religion brings to the table.

I also think that I've personally outgrown religion. Not in simply an age sense, but in a sense that I expect more. If God created me that way, then I find it hard to suppress curiosity and skepticism for the proof evidenced in favor of some omniscient, omnipotent being. If there were something out there that was able to convince me, I've yet to see it. What's more is that the things presented as proof have left me more skeptical, even considering religion as a scam that relies on very vulnerable people in order to sustain itself. I also believe there are people out there that legitimately believe in God and do great things. Then we get into the altruism argument...whether a person of faith would still be inclined to be a decent and loving person if it weren't for the fear of what comes next and the dread that someone out there is penning a lifelong performance review based on their goodness.

Religion falls apart in so many ways for me. By the way it was taught. By the ways it's exploited for political or personal gain. By the way it rationalizes morality. Let's not forget the hundreds of other standing religions in the world and the major powers at play that have persisted throughout the age of man to make it the obvious prevailing choice of belief. Or the atrocities that have been committed in the names of many religions including Christianity.

I don't know. Where do we start?

We can start with the bold.

1. I think God for you and I wish there were more of you before #ShowerGate.

2. I am one of those individuals who probably wouldn't G.A.F. if Jesus didn't say I had to. This doesn't come from a fear of hell, but from natural...misanthropy, I think. For example, Jesus says to love thy neighbor, love thy enemies. I am only able to muster this via pity, as most people are at best average intelligence, and that's not their fault.

The ones who are intentionally dumb...well, the Lord is still working on how I should feel about them, lol.
 
Ancient Gray Ancient Gray , great post. I'll take a stab at a few things.

1. Sorry to hear about your experiences growing up. What denomination? For what it's worth, racism is entirely incompatible with the facial text of Christianity.
"Then Peter began to speak: 'I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." (Acts 10:38). I don't know what your old man's beef was with sexuality but I think neuroscience and psychology show that there's tremendous value to chastity. And regarding denial of science - many of the greatest scientists in history come directly from the Catholic priesthood (Lemaitre, the proposer of the Big Bang Theory; Mendel, the father of genetics; Possibly Coepernicus, the proposer of heliocentrism). All of the leading thinkers of the scientific revolution cared and wrote about religion just as much, and in some cases more, than they ever did about science (Newton, Pascal, Descartes, Leibniz). Our whole Western tradition of reason and rationality derives from the work of Saint Thomas Aquinas.

I began as Presbyterian and was transitioned into Baptist in the time I was practicing. My parents were furious because one of our presbyterian pastors was gay and then another church we left because they believed Noah's Ark was caused by the melting of polar ice caps. Which got us to a Baptist church. It's all pretty stupid reasons, and part of the reason I became disenchanted with Christianity as a whole. My dad usually would use race to make judgments of faith. Arab people were muslims, black people were Jehovah's Witness, Chinese people were Buddhist, Indian people were Hindu, so on and so forth. I know it's not a crack at religion and more an impression my father imparted on me about religion and his dealings in absolutes. So it stuck and left a bitter taste in my mouth.

2. I think the world would be far worse off without religion. The Roman Catholic Church is the largest provider of education, medicine, disaster relief, and overall human services, not just in the world today but throughout all of human history.

I agree! They've also done their share of sexual abuse wrapped in the guise of faith. Again, not saying that I believe all religious people to be twisted. I think religion provides a great deal of good to the world!

3. The existence of God is a philosophical argument, not a religious one. Aristotle and the ancient Greeks proposed the idea of the First Mover. Renee Descartes also offered a proof that was independent from his fervent Catholic faith. To me, it just does not seem like consciousness, creativity, civilization, logic, are naturally-occuring phenomenons. We live in a universe full of dead rocks and our planet is the only one with any real biodiversity; we have an enormous planet with a vast evolutionary timeline, but we're the only animal with each of these gifts, let alone all of them at the same time. The materialist argument is implausible.

Saying we live in a universe full of dead rocks feels like a reach to me in the same way that saying "God exists" without actually really seeing or talking to God in some significant sense. We can't perceive it to this point in some way that makes us believe it unequivocally so we can't say it. However, mathematically, I lean more on the concept that from a materialistic standpoint the occurrence of life like ours is extremely rare but not isolated. But I can't present you with anything outside of probability.

4. Regarding "works of faith" - we don't do it because we expect a reward or worry about our life's inventory. We do good works because it's our duty, it's the least we can do out of gratitude to God. (Luke 17:10). The reward is the same regardless if you devoted your entire lifetime to God or only just the end. (Matthew 20).

That's good to hear. I wish I knew more people that held that kind of belief. So just to ask a followup to this, let's say that a man who has never accepted Christ has done incredible things altruistically. Would he be granted passage to eternal life?

5. You're right that there have been many religions throughout human history - I would argue that's anthropological proof positive of how important it is for human functioning.

I agree. Completely.

6. The geopolitical and socio-cultural underpinnings of atrocity would persist even in the absence of religion. The explicitly atheist governments of the twentieth century slaughtered and starved more people than all wars of religion combined. France's anti-religious Reign of Terror killed more people than all of the Inquisitions across Europe combined. You cannot deny that the Crusades were a pre-emptive response to a violent, hegemonic Islam, who had destroyed the Persian Empire, and now besieged all of Europe in the East (the Turkish conquest of the Byzantine Empire), the West (The Moorish conquest of Spain) and the South, all along North Africa. Most of the accounts of atrocities are implausible stories by people who were born decades after the events - the sieges were largely in line with medieval warfare and have been revised downward as the evidence gets better. You should read the works of Thomas Madden for more.

I get that. But there's something that just stings a little more when it's done by a person of faith in the guise of faith. I don't know. In some ways I feel as if faith would make me act less moral? As if my adoption of it would lead me to be manipulative. I feel as if my principles are better suited by the notion of doing good things because they make me feel good. I guess that's not truly altruistic but it works and I don't see any reason why I shouldn't feel good for doing good. I feel as though my acceptance of religion places me more in line with a Pascal's Wager rather than a true belief in religion. It's hard to really believe something that you've been so conditioned to see in a negative light. I honestly don't know how you get back to that point without some serious trauma brought upon you.
 

appaws

Banned
Alright, I like the idea of this thread. I'm a newcomer and an atheist so here goes...

I began my young life as a Christian and probably transitioned into atheism sometime around college. I can't pinpoint an exact time, but it was brought on by a mixture of things including some toxic beliefs of my father surrounding race and sexuality that I just don't agree with, the dismissal of science, as well as some of the free-thinking and self-discovery that happened with living outside of my parents' household. The way that religion was taught to me was never presented as logical. It never had to justify why it is. It just was. Which is just about as far as I'm convinced it goes and I'm very interested to read into this thread more and see what comes of the discussion.

However, I'm also an atheist that disagrees that the world would be better off without the institution of religion. I certainly try not to insult people of faith and only really get into these types of situations where I feel as if someone is trying to dazzle me with the same argument that my younger self was originally unable to stand up and rebut. I understand that some people need religion. I understand that without it, several people lack the moral compass to make moral decisions. I think there's plenty of wise passages in the Bible. To that end, I appreciate some of the things that religion brings to the table.

I also think that I've personally outgrown religion. Not in simply an age sense, but in a sense that I expect more. If God created me that way, then I find it hard to suppress curiosity and skepticism for the proof evidenced in favor of some omniscient, omnipotent being. If there were something out there that was able to convince me, I've yet to see it. What's more is that the things presented as proof have left me more skeptical, even considering religion as a scam that relies on very vulnerable people in order to sustain itself. I also believe there are people out there that legitimately believe in God and do great things. Then we get into the altruism argument...whether a person of faith would still be inclined to be a decent and loving person if it weren't for the fear of what comes next and the dread that someone out there is penning a lifelong performance review based on their goodness.

Religion falls apart in so many ways for me. By the way it was taught. By the ways it's exploited for political or personal gain. By the way it rationalizes morality. Let's not forget the hundreds of other standing religions in the world and the major powers at play that have persisted throughout the age of man to make it the obvious prevailing choice of belief. Or the atrocities that have been committed in the names of many religions including Christianity.

I don't know. Where do we start?

I was like you, and so many others, who fell away from Christ at around that age. As I became a man, passing through my twenties, earning a PhD and then becoming a lawyer, I continued to read and learn. (I mention this not to brag, but to break the stereotype that non-believers have of Christians being stupid or dupes.)

Eventually in reading philosophy I stumbled across the argument from first cause. I could not find fault with it over years of thinking (and I still have never had any non-believer answer it to my satisfaction), and this brought me to a basic Deism. Sort of Jeffersonian, if you are familiar with that.

The study of history, scripture, and the writings of the Church fathers brought me back to the one true Church founded by Christ.

I recommend the podcast "Unbelievable" to you. Go back and find some of the debates between Christians and non-Christians on some of the philosophical or theological issues you find interesting. There are a huge number of them and they are over an hour so they have a lot of time to flesh out the discussion.
 

appaws

Banned
That's good to hear. I wish I knew more people that held that kind of belief. So just to ask a followup to this, let's say that a man who has never accepted Christ has done incredible things altruistically. Would he be granted passage to eternal life?

Nope. It is a difficult thing (for moderns) to deal with...but the answer is no. Christ is the only way.
 

DunDunDunpachi

Patient MembeR
Nope. It is a difficult thing (for moderns) to deal with...but the answer is no. Christ is the only way.
It's refereshing -- but rare, you have to admit -- to see a contemporary Christian take this stance, unpopular as it may be. What led you to this conclusion?

I agree, by the way. It's implicit in the message and the Scriptures. It's either the only way or it's all pointless. In Christianity there are facets that we have slowly grown to understand over the centuries, and there are doctrines that do not have unanimous agreement, but this isn't one of those things.
 

appaws

Banned
It's refereshing -- but rare, you have to admit -- to see a contemporary Christian take this stance, unpopular as it may be. What led you to this conclusion?

I agree, by the way. It's implicit in the message and the Scriptures. It's either the only way or it's all pointless. In Christianity there are facets that we have slowly grown to understand over the centuries, and there are doctrines that do not have unanimous agreement, but this isn't one of those things.

Actually I would say that ALL Christians believe this. I agree with you that it is a foundational belief of the Christian faith. Those who don't believe it have ceased to be Christians in any real sense.
 
“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

giphy.gif
 
I have another question which is important considering you claim the Catholic Church is God’s Church. If that is so then which priesthood do it’s priests belong?
 
It just got hot in here all of a sudden.

important analogy the “bank of the sea” tying it to the merchants of the earth. I would like now to reveal the history concerning certain men who are following an ancient system
designed to suppress and oppress the children of Yahweh from achieving their ultimate goal to be made in Yahweh’s likeness and image, and receiving authority over all creation. This guild of men and woman today are following an ancient system that monetized and commercialize sin, and through it they have gained great wealth for themselves. The “Bar Guilds” today that controlled all of the court systems throughout the world today are following an ancient court system establish by the children of Canaan. The “Bar Guilds” today were created by the Roman Cult, the Venetian, and Florentine and Khazar bankers. The start of this guild occurred after the creation of the Catholic Church in Rome by the father and uncles of Charlemagne in year 751. History show us in this time period a dramatic change in the structure and operations of judicial assemblies took place. In the year of 1057 this change was facilitated by St. Peter “the Venetian” Gregory VII who became the first “Satanic Pope” of the Catholic Church. In this time period there begin a transformation in the laws of government and their judicial systems. This change occurred in the Medieval Warming Period when the Roman Catholic Church begin to claim the right and control over Christianity. The super-rich Khazaran trading families of Venice-Genoa and Naples grew wealthy by establishing guilds and closed markets for the manufacturing of law and distribution. St.Peter who the Roman Catholic Church claims was the apostle of Yahshua Messiah whose bones they recently displayed to all the world is in fact St. Peter the “Venetian” from the elite trading family of Venice. This family saw that money could be made by the monetization of sin through the “cautio” (court) guild of Judges and Notaries. The elite trading families of Venice-Genoa and Naples investments in the Roman Catholic Church proved to be profitable through the Medici family of Florence who establish a system of guilds called “Arti”( where we get the word Art meaning secret practices). There were (5) major guilds called “arti mediane” and (7) minor guilds called the “arti minori”. The most influential of them all was the “Arte de Guidici Notai” (Frank O’ Collins). History also reveals in the Middle Ages a new order of judges were not concern with seeking justice, but the commercialization of penalties in the form of bonds, securities and bailment’s of vows and oath. The Roman
Catholic Church in 1249-1250 declared the first “Jubilee” where history
shows they pardon all sin, debt and they establish the trading of indulgences(insurance against sins). Notice the following information in this article “How to Succeed in Court by Frank Collins page 7:
The Bar Guilds (Societies) are the direct descendants of the Florentine – Venetian, and London guilds of the Middle ages, that used merchant trading principles to commercialize law and personally profit from crime. The Bar Guilds now control almost 100% of the judicial assemblies around the world in the worst example of organized crime in the history of civilization. (Frank Collins)
The control these guilds have over the judicial assemblies can also be seen in the guilds of the movie and music industries. These industries encourage crime so the private owners of prisons can become extremely wealthy through the commercialization of sin. This is accomplished through the “Black Robed Galla/Galli millennia” this Galla is described as priests who are connected to the goddess Cybele (the Queen of Heaven) also known as Mary. The priest of Cybele were voluntary eunuchs called the “Celibate Eunich Galla from the city of Ur in 1000b.c.e. The standard clothing of Galla in the ancient city of Ur was the “black ropes” identifying them as the servants of the Goddess Cybele. The organization today who follow the ancient teachings and imitate the practices of the Celibate Galla of the temple of Cybele is now sitting on Vatican Hill, and the ruler of this Galla is call the Pontiff Maxims the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church who is also the High Priest of this Galla. The “God” of this galla who they worshipped openly or knowingly is “Baal”. Baal worship was also known by the name “Baal Hanan (Hammon) the High Priests during the time periods of 20ce through 60ce were priest of Baal. These Priests of “Baal controlled Herod’s temple at Jerusalem, and after the destruction of the Temple in 70ce many of the inhabitants fled to many countries in Europe were they establish the trading families of Venice, Geona, and Florentine. They began to consolidate their power with their allies in the Roman sect and they took over the Catholic Church in the 13th century. The Venetian
Roman sect established through the Roman Catholic Church the means to control the judicial assemblies all over the world. All court systems today are based on a “collection of rituals” created by the Romans Catholic Church called the “Sacraments of Penance” which are codified under the Canon laws (959-997) for salvation, reconciliation for sin, and the monetization of sin. The court cases and suits today function according to the “Sacraments of Penance.”

The Church™️ Of The Sinner. 💵💰🏦
 
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Valor? Appaws? Are you there? Is this true? Correct me if it is wrong, Brothers. Show me the light. Please. If I have a plank in my eye, I need it not. 😞

It was Leo I successor Gelasius who later proclaimed to the world the Roman Catholic Church ruled over the Emperor and the whole world. The authority and control of the Catholic Church over a majority of the known world was maintain until the fifteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Catholic Church came under the control of the Medici family of Florence, Italy who brought great wealth to the Roman Catholic Church. It was Lorenzo de Medici (1449-1492) who establish control over the Catholic Church and also used his wealth and power to have his son Giovanni de Medici ordained a cardinal at the age of 13 who was elected Pope Leo X in 1513. Pope Leo X is shown in history to have proclaim the authority of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church over the kings of the earth and later over Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church continues to declare their authority through a new movement called Universal Christianity this began in 1893 at the World Parliament of Religions in Chicago. Christianity was described by the participants to embody all religions on earth. This new form of universalism today is form after the old universal concept of Constantine who created a Universal Religion and the Universal Church now embracing what is called today “Universal Christianity”. This new form of universalisms advocates the unity of all religions under the banner of Universal Christianity.
 
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Congrats. You destroyed the thread.

But what about Leo and the Medici family of Florence? Do they sip of the cup of fornication or are their lips clean enough to speak the Gospel? What of the Catholic priesthood? In who’s name do they practice?
 
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Airola

Member
The discussing and participation style of Sax is probably the reason why Paul told women to shut up in church :D
 
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Here’s a truck stop instead of saint peters, YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH. By the way the women were to keep quiet in the church because they were expected to get all the answers they needed from their husbands at home. 🙄
 
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Christianity, that religion of Smoke, that came from the religion of Fire, Judaism, and from within the midst of both, the religion of Brimstone, Islam. Those hot coals.


By these three was a 3rd part of man killed.

The 1st part being the body, the 2nd part being the soul. The 3rd part of man of course is the spirit.

Religious doctrine, the plague upon mankind.
 
Daaaaaaang.

Congrats. You destroyed the thread.

I’d really like to know what priesthood the Catholic Church falls under. Pretty simple question. I haven’t destroyed anything. The ones who claim to be the church of God are the ones who have built the so called church on pillars of sand it seems and I haven’t even once had to bring up the ever looming scandal among the so called “holy” priests. 🙄
 
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Daaaaaaang.



I’d really like to know what priesthood the Catholic Church falls under. Pretty simple question. I haven’t destroyed anything. The ones who claim to be the church of God are the ones who have built the so called church on pillars of sand it seems.

I’m gonna guess catholic priests fall under the catholic priesthood.
 

VAL0R

Banned
An old friend, now a Catholic friar, is in town tonight from D.C. and my wife and kids and I are excited to take him out for giant plates of pasta at a local place that specializes in family-style Italian food. Hopefully he won't ruin his white habit. :)

Here's his order: https://dominicanfriars.org/
 
The fact that this thread gets bumped because of conflict is a shame.

So much negativity. In a thread that is supposed to be about faith, hope, and love.
 

Airola

Member
That comic was pretty funny though :D

I very much agree though that this shouldn't be a thread about Catholics telling non-Catholics aren't Christians and non-Catholics telling Catholics aren't Christians.
 
Tell me how a man can make someone a saint when that duty is left to God only who knows the heart? I still haven’t seen an answer to my priesthood question either.
 

AfricanKing

Member
The fact that this thread gets bumped because of conflict is a shame.

So much negativity. In a thread that is supposed to be about faith, hope, and love.

Can't mods just thread ban him. One person being so negative that it disengaged conversation is horrible.
 
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Can't mods just thread ban him. One person being so negative that it disengaged conversation is horrible.

Not every Christian is Catholic. If the topic were the Catholicism OT it’d be fine. It’s not. There are VAST differences between what they do and what the teachings of Christ were.

Well men also wrote the Bible and you don't have any problems with that, am I right? :)

It wasn’t written by man. Man only transcribed what they were given by the spirit.
 
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Well then you can apply this "logic" to the saint situation. It's not a man who makes another a saint, it's the spirit :)

No.

Let us be guided by the Spirit of ecumenism!

Yeah I don’t see a spirit of ecumenism listed in the Bible either. Scripture says those in sin should be cast out of the church. Many denominations are in agreement that many of the strange doctrines that the Catholics teach are wrong which is why there are other denominations in the first place. When people fled from Europe to America back in the day they were fleeing from the Catholic Church.

Also doesn’t scripture say narrow is the path? Why would anyone believe that the broadest path available is the correct one? The Catholic Church is not Gods Church. PEOPLE who believe in and follow Christ are period.
 
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Airola

Member
Also doesn’t scripture say narrow is the path? Why would anyone believe that the broadest path available is the correct one? The Catholic Church is not Gods Church. PEOPLE who believe in and follow Christ are period.

The path is amazingly narrow and that's why Jesus had to die for us.

If you say sinners should be kicked from the church or that you can't be saved if you still sin, then you are essentially saying you have to be as perfect as Jews had to be when they had all their laws. You would not only have to still be basing your faith in following the law the way Jews tried to do back in the day but you would also have to add believing in Christ to it. Wouldn't that make the path even more narrow? Where's the gospel in that?
 
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phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Yeah I don’t see a spirit of ecumenism listed in the Bible either. Scripture says those in sin should be cast out of the church. Many denominations are in agreement that many of the strange doctrines that the Catholics teach are wrong which is why there are other denominations in the first place. When people fled from Europe to America back in the day they were fleeing from the Catholic Church.

I don't know which part of scripture you are referring to Sax. But there are certainly parts of scripture that strongly support ecumenism. Among them 1 Corinthians, which I cited further up the thread. See for example:

1 Cor 1:2 said:
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours

As to casting sinners out of the church, I assume that you are referring to 1 Cor 5, which I read as referring to persistent personal wickedness, not to doctrinal differences.
 
So when the commandments say no other Gods or no idols where does that fall? As far as your question, Airola, Christ constantly said to turn from sin. In doing so you are turning to God. Does it not say in revelation that outside the gates of heaven are the murderers, the adulterers, the fornicators and such? You can’t keep sinning. Christ dying for our sins wasn’t a free pass. Eventually you have to leave sin behind if you are truly following Christ. That’s what a true saint is.
 
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