Support NeoGAF

[SLoWMoTIoN]

snip

I like your non furry stuff. /runs
The lack of Tsuki images is sad

 

[lock2k]

Realistic compared to real life? The women at my gym, restaurants, malls look better than most western fictional female characters...that were made less attractive on purpose. Are they not real? Also Uncharted is a terrible thing to bring up when you want realistic looks from fictional characters but for them to do things most women can't do! Cue Nadine beating two men with no problem. Then you mention Bayonetta which pretty much takes things to 11 and has the anatomy of a ladder. So ???


I can't think of any in the last 5 years.

This... so much!

The stupid notion that real = ugly is something that ugly people have pushed and somehow it became "true".

I know several beautiful women. My wife looks really good (way better than a lot of these boyish characters that companies are pushing as some sort of strong woman archetype) and a lot of women from my workplace are beautiful as well. There are all kinds of people between attractive and non-attractive. I get that what is attractive differs from people to people, but some of the values are universal and I know a lot of classic beauties.

To me, this sort of notion that real equals ugly is something that girls with low self-esteem (read: ugly) started to push so they could make a sort of beauty socialism where everyone becomes uglier so it doesn't affect them as much (and they sell it as some kind of redemption, as some kind of "not objectifying" women... which is a bullshit argument).

 

[Platinumstorm]

Didn't read thread but I am less likely to buy games that have fanservice. I am not attracted to video game characters; it's not that I'm being a prude. If you are, cool, but maybe there are losses in sales for games that have lots of it.

 

[NahaNago]

Mainstream stuff doesn't really need a lot of sexy fanservice stuff but they could at least make the women look really nice to look at and have an enjoyable personality. It's kinda weird that I think that I feel like I'm asking too much from western devs when I ask for this. I would leave the super sexy western fanservice stuff to more niche titles but they probably wouldn't allow it on consoles anyways. I think that right now the only way you would get western fanservice stuff in a game is if it is a brutal and fantasy like game.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

The stupid notion that real = ugly is something that ugly people have pushed and somehow it became "true".

I know several beautiful women.

Indeed, there are many beautiful women in the world.

But I also get the feeling that for some there's also the problem of men finding certain female characters attractive. Not enough for the character to be modest, but they must not appeal to male sensibilities in anyway.

I get that what is attractive differs from people to people, but some of the values are universal and I know a lot of classic beauties.

Indeed.

Many of us have had the experience of disagreeing with friends or family about which celebrity is more attractive. Now, researchers show in a study of twins that those differences of opinion are mostly the result of personal experiences that are unique to each individual. In other words, even identical twins don't agree. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151001125637.htm

Past research has shown that heterosexual men and women have a ‘type’ when it comes to hair and eye color, and that the type matches their opposite sex parent. Of course, many of us have the same hair and eye color as our parents, which is why it’s important to test whether we prefer partners who look more like us or more like our parent: the parents win out.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/int.../our-attraction-partners-who-look-our-parents

Have you ever thought there was an uncanny family resemblance between your friend and her partner?
Or wondered for a fleeting moment whether the pair walking down the road were husband and wife, or brother and sister?
You might not be imagining things.
People who report more positive childhood relationships with a parent are more likely to be attracted to partners who resemble that parent.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...umans-hardwired-attracted-familiar-faces.html

If your girlfriend looks a touch like your mom — or your husband resembles your dad — you're not alone.
According to the research of University of St. Andrews psychologist David Perrett, we're attracted to the features that our parents had when we were born. https://www.businessinsider.com/attraction-people-who-look-like-your-parents-2015-2

The phenomenon of people seeking out partners who look like their opposite-gendered parent is more than just an old wives' tale; it has been confirmed by a lot of research, including a 2003 study which discovered that wives and their mothers-in-law can often be matched by strangers based only on facial resemblance, and a 2002 study that found that people raised by older parents were more likely to go for older romantic partners. https://www.bustle.com/articles/845...look-like-your-parents-science-thinks-you-are

It's not just familiarity. When it comes to attraction, we're a little more narcissistic than we'd like to admit. The 2010 study in Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin asked participants to rate the general sexual attractiveness of strangers. When photos of the strangers were morphed with the participants' faces (up to 45%), subjects found the photograph blended with their own face to be the most attractive of all.
https://mic.com/articles/111010/the...ut-the-people-we-choose-to-be-with#.WXwPIEp1b

In one study, subjects were shown pictures of strangers which were preceded by a short glimpse of either their own opposite-sex parent or a stranger. Subjects exposed to a short glimpse of their parent before being exposed to the target picture were more likely to assign higher ratings of attractiveness to the person in the target picture. In a second study, a picture of the stranger was morphed with a picture of themselves or a picture of another stranger. https://www.psychologytoday.com/int...ve/201505/are-we-attracted-people-who-look-us

I hypothesize part in the variation of beauty standards is corruption. Say someone saying my mom had a large nose or my dad had a large nose, or I have a large nose, and now I find that attractive.

This is similar to people who prefer food from their own culture and home, music, art, etc.

To be honest I think such biases are distortions. Perhaps it is not truly objective, but I think those whose tastes can allow them to compare the products of cultures across the world and not default to my culture is best, have a tad bit more objectivity. Likewise those that can recognize that perhaps mere resemblance to themselves or their parents does not necessarily make something more attractive are a tad bit more objective.

Yes someone without attention to detail may find many similar traits subconsciously attractive, these signs of familiarity, but someone with an eye for detail will pick up on even the most minute of details, might not be so inclined, as they'll be quite conscious of what comes to mind.

Didn't read thread but I am less likely to buy games that have fanservice. I am not attracted to video game characters; it's not that I'm being a prude. If you are, cool, but maybe there are losses in sales for games that have lots of it.

What does that even mean? You mean stylized characters perhaps?

With current technology you could probably build a visual novel with characters that are indistinguishable from real.



In the future as technology progresses you'll be able to do so in more genres. Potentially people could even take pictures of each other and the games would allow them as 3d photoreal character models.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i wish sex was as ok to our corporate overlords as violence is but it's not. it's really sad.

recently i tried playing through a game, Assassin's Creed Odyssey. first mission has me killing dozens of people, followed by a cutscene where i impale some guy with a giant spear through the neck.

honestly it was shocking and gross and put me off the game.

yet nobody is going to complain about it. all the outrage is reserved for sex.

our society is sick. this is one of many symptoms.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

I recall the female version of the main character real life model in ME:A is quite hot but in game model was quite... ugly.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

This... so much!

The stupid notion that real = ugly is something that ugly people have pushed and somehow it became "true".

I know several beautiful women. My wife looks really good (way better than a lot of these boyish characters that companies are pushing as some sort of strong woman archetype) and a lot of women from my workplace are beautiful as well. There are all kinds of people between attractive and non-attractive. I get that what is attractive differs from people to people, but some of the values are universal and I know a lot of classic beauties.

To me, this sort of notion that real equals ugly is something that girls with low self-esteem (read: ugly) started to push so they could make a sort of beauty socialism where everyone becomes uglier so it doesn't affect them as much (and they sell it as some kind of redemption, as some kind of "not objectifying" women... which is a bullshit argument).

But girls like being cute/sexy. Given the choice most women like making their avatars in game good looking. Or a an attractive male.

 

[Nelsin]

Gotta be honest here I will be really sad if they ever mess with bayonetta designs or close up shots. Its truly the most perfected fan service on video games to date as sad as it sounds for some people I will be real with you if they ever mess with the game design choices ,because some salty ass SJWs then no buy for me.

Also sexulise males all you want if that makes it any better.

 

[YayNJ]

In this thread : grown men genuinely upset at less pixel titties.

 

[Danjin44]

Gotta be honest here I will be really sad if they ever mess with bayonetta designs or close up shots. Its truly the most perfected fan service on video games to date as sad as it sounds for some people I will be real with you if they ever mess with the game design choices ,because some salty ass SJWs then no buy for me.

Also sexulise males all you want if that makes it any better.

Japan does both, I mean have you guys seen this show?

There is no sexualize females but there LOTS of sexualize males.

Spoiler: NSFW

 

[Nelsin]

In this thread : grown men genuinely upset at less pixel titties.

I mean same goes for PC being upset about more pixel titties.

 

[NahaNago]

In this thread : grown men genuinely upset at less pixel titties.

you're on a gaming forum.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I mean same goes for PC being upset about more pixel titties.

That's the thing there's gratuitous violence everywhere and barely a complaint. But gratuitous sexual content, borders on taboo. Even some games having a bit of fan service is enough to drive vast constant complaints.

 

[lock2k]

Indeed, there are many beautiful women in the world.

But I also get the feeling that for some there's also the problem of men finding certain female characters attractive. Not enough for the character to be modest, but they must not appeal to male sensibilities in anyway.

Indeed.












I hypothesize part in the variation of beauty standards is corruption. Say someone saying my mom had a large nose or my dad had a large nose, or I have a large nose, and now I find that attractive.

This is similar to people who prefer food from their own culture and home, music, art, etc.

To be honest I think such biases are distortions. Perhaps it is not truly objective, but I think those whose tastes can allow them to compare the products of cultures across the world and not default to my culture is best, have a tad bit more objectivity. Likewise those that can recognize that perhaps mere resemblance to themselves or their parents does not necessarily make something more attractive are a tad bit more objective.

Yes someone without attention to detail may find many similar traits subconsciously attractive, these signs of familiarity, but someone with an eye for detail will pick up on even the most minute of details, might not be so inclined, as they'll be quite conscious of what comes to mind.

What does that even mean? You mean stylized characters perhaps?

With current technology you could probably build a visual novel with characters that are indistinguishable from real.



In the future as technology progresses you'll be able to do so in more genres. Potentially people could even take pictures of each other and the games would allow them as 3d photoreal character models.

Great reply, very insightful.

Loved reading it (will watch the videos later on). This is precisely what I like in forums like this one.

 

[Danjin44]

That's the thing there's gratuitous violence everywhere and barely a complaint. But gratuitous sexual content, borders on taboo. Even some games having a bit of fan service is enough to drive vast constant complaints.

I guess in West people are much more comfortable with extreme violence more than sex.

What can you do?

 

[Valonquar]

Kratos don't even fuck now. SMH

 

[LegendOfKage]

Perhaps the religious right prudes of the 90s finally got their wish. They just had to wait until their desires were fulfilled by secular liberals. But the result is the same, isn't it?

Yea except it's all the gender confused lefties and feminists that are complaining about it and actually succeeding at censorship these days. Nice try projecting though

Which part of my post made you think I wasn't being critical of the left? I'm essentially saying they're hypocrites.

 

[Pantz]

So uh, is there going to be a list of western fanservice games?
(asking for myself)

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Is not anti-sex, everybody likes sex - feminist and left included - is about anti-objectification of the female role.

This is bullshit for a variety of reasons.

The number 1 reason is that "objectification" is applied to literally every female character design that would appeal to a straight man now, there's no nuance, there's no context, it's an umbrella thing now, so it's basically saying male sexuality period is objectification, which is bullshit.

And secondly "objectification" itself is more or a less a bullshit term, what there is is fantasy, males have sexual fantasies just like women do, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, just like women have Harlequin romance novels or various characters that they find sexually appealing, males have characters that they find sexually appealing too, there's nothing wrong with that unless again, you think there's something inherently wrong with male sexuality in general, which is also bullshit.

Not everything has to appeal to male fantasies no, but there's nothing wrong with a little bit of that, just like there wouldn't be anything wrong with a male character who is appealing to a female audience.

But at the end of the day, there's sexual content in general, which of every stripe is disappearing from mainstream western games, a TV show like Game of Thrones has plenty of male and female nudity, why couldn't games have that? Why can't games get away with anything a movie or cable TV series could?

 

[whiteninja]

This just reminds me this article I saw back before MKX came out. They mention making the women characters "more realistic". More realistic characters, in a game series that involves brutally slaughtering each other in increasingly elaborate ways. I didnt buy the game so I can't say for sure but did they dial back the fatalities too, to make those "more realistic?

 

[Xaero Gravity]

Imagine viewing the world only in terms of victimhood.

It's a competition for them.

 

[xwez]

I remember when Capcom had characters like this.

Now we get this:

Hmm, see a trend.

 

[CatCouch]

I remember when Capcom had characters like this.

Now we get this:

Hmm, see a trend.

Honestly, I think Capcom is just trying to get a hold of new facial technology. Ada Wong looks amazing and the outfits on the women in their games are still sexy. I don't think they want to give up the idealized elements of their art. They know making unattractive characters in games all about style like Devil May Cry would not go over too well. Street Fighter V still gets sexy costumes like the one based on Felicia!

 

[iconmaster]

Perhaps the religious right prudes of the 90s finally got their wish. They just had to wait until their desires were fulfilled by secular liberals. But the result is the same, isn't it?

I resemble that remark and yes, this is one area where progressives did a lot of hard work for us.

/puts up feet, sips drink

 

[xellos2099alpha]

Honestly, I think Capcom is just trying to get a hold of new facial technology. Ada Wong looks amazing and the outfits on the women in their games are still sexy. I don't think they want to give up the idealized elements of their art. They know making unattractive characters in games all about style like Devil May Cry would not go over too well. Street Fighter V still gets sexy costumes like the one based on Felicia!

GOD, w/e happen to Trish face...... Lady looking decent.

 

[CatCouch]

GOD, w/e happen to Trish face...... Lady looking decent.

It's weird, huh? Trish looks nice but Lady looks wonky. Ada Wong looks great but Claire looks iffy. Hopefully they'll get the kinks ironed out over time.

 

[Danjin44]

It's weird, huh? Trish looks nice but Lady looks wonky. Ada Wong looks great but Claire looks iffy. Hopefully they'll get the kinks ironed out over time.

I personally wish they didn’t go with hyper realistic faces. They look less like the characters themselves but rather look like people who cosplay as DMC characters.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

I personally wish they didn’t go with hyper realistic faces. They look less like the characters themselves but rather look like people who cosplay as DMC characters.

This is what happen once we approach uncanny valley.

 

[Danjin44]

This is what happen once we approach uncanny valley.

I personally much, much prefer more stylized character design like previous DMC games. In my opinion hyper realistic just doesn’t fit with DMC series.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

In this thread : grown men genuinely upset at less pixel titties.

Why should I be ashamed of this?

 

[Deleted member 471617]

I guess in West people are much more comfortable with extreme violence more than sex.

Sad but true. Makes no sense.

 

[MGHA]

Get over yourself. Gaming is entertainment and doesn't need to become all bland bullshit to "grow up".


Yep op is definitely white. Only disgusting straight WHITE men like tits. No other straight men do.


Give everybody else a break and quit overreacting.

Amazing. Glad to see a some actual sanity on gaf.

 

[ipukespiders]

Here I was just playing BloodRayne. I wonder what the character would look like in a current year sequel.
*shudders*

 

[Elcid]

There are still plenty of western devs that do fanservice. Off the top of my head Netherrealm and Riot. Maybe not to the same degree or as prevalent as in Japanese games but they are still there.

NRS is ANTI FANSERVICE as of the end of MK9. Since MK9 there is zero fan service.

 

[Elcid]

This kills both my wife and I. I remember when NRS did sexy women. Now they all look like men or flat chested tomb boys. What is wrong with sexy women? Why can't they be a thing? In my case I enjoy Laura from SFV because she's sexy and fun but I don't beat off to her. My wife just likes to associate with sexy characters. God did she spend hours in the Tera character creation.

Didn't mean to double post. First errors.

 

[xellos2099alpha]

This kills both my wife and I. I remember when NRS did sexy women. Now they all look like men or flat chested tomb boys. What is wrong with sexy women? Why can't they be a thing? In my case I enjoy Laura from SFV because she's sexy and fun but I don't beat off to her. My wife just likes to associate with sexy characters. God did she spend hours in the Tera character creation.

I remember the mess known as Wonderwoman about her shoulder look like a man. I think they did Harley Quinn and Black Canary well in injustice 2... at least better than before

 

[dirthead]

Modern fighting games are basically softcore porn at this point.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

sexuality is wrong. we all need to be overweight with purple hair and wear glasses and not be sexy and never fuck

 

[Danjin44]

Modern fighting games are basically softcore porn at this point.

I guess to you games like Witcher 3 must be XXX hardcore porn.

 

[JimmyRustler]

One thing I was also wondering is this...

I people really believe that objectification of women in video games lead to objectification of women in real life than shouldn't we ditch violence in video games as well? Because, you know, with this thinking one would assume that video game violence also leads to real life violence.

Yet video games today are more violent and realistic than ever... Can someone of the advocates against objectification explain this to me?

 

[underberg]

Gaming audience has become more diverse and heterogenous so it makes sense billion dollars companies are trying to adapt to a new environment. Also, there's still plenty of fanservice in games, just less groundless than before where women were often naked or almost naked for no reason other than titillating males.

Personally, I don't care about fanservice: I play games to play and follow a story, not for being titillated. Pornography serves that purpose.

 

[dirthead]

I guess to you games like Witcher 3 must be XXX hardcore porn.

There's something sleazier about the fighting games. At least shit like the Witcher works it into the story a little more organically. With the fighting games it's just transparently look at me tits.

 

[Danjin44]

There's something sleazier about the fighting games. At least shit like the Witcher works it into the story a little more organically. With the fighting games it's just transparently look at me tits.

Fighting is all about exaggerated and over the top design, I don’t see anything wrong with having sexy design in fighting games.

 

[Dacon]

Modern fighting games are basically softcore porn at this point.

Lolwat. Fighting games havent really changed as far as fanservice and attractive characters go(except with NRS). There's always been hot women in fighting games going way back.

Not sure what makes them porn, that seems silly.

 

[Danjin44]

Lolwat. Fighting games havent really changed as far as fanservice and attractive characters go(except with NRS). There's always been hot women in fighting games going way back.

Not sure what makes them porn, that seems silly.

People just love to be hyperbolic about everything. I remember when Catherine first came out in 2011, there are lot of people consider it “porn game” because of theme of the game.

 

[Tajaz2426]

It warms my heart to see there are actually people out there that still remembers when it wasn’t cool to be a victim.

I never cared for fan service, but I always wanted creators and gamers to have the freedom to express themselves and my wife has always loved the women in Mortal Kombat.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Gaming audience has become more diverse and heterogenous so it makes sense billion dollars companies are trying to adapt to a new environment. Also, there's still plenty of fanservice in games, just less groundless than before where women were often naked or almost naked for no reason other than titillating males.

Personally, I don't care about fanservice: I play games to play and follow a story, not for being titillated. Pornography serves that purpose.

The audience is getting more diverse and the content is becoming a bit more homogenous... this is not a good trend or path.

Some of the more diverse previously non gamer audience is quite vocal about what they do not like almost more than what they actually like: this is people who would be happy only if what they did not like / made them “uncomfortable” did not exist and people would not enjoy what they do not enjoy. Legality of the content in question is beyond the point.

It would be ok if the “percentage” of tiltillating games we’re down (it follows maths, increasing user base...) or kind of ok if the usebase playing those games rejected them (not because they would be harassed or shamed/bullied in doing that), but distorting the market to give a few people the comforting feeling that other people are not enjoying that “filth”... well that is not.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Lol, what a great loss to mankind, they're taking away our 3D boobies!

When characters are criticized and shamed for showing too much skin, how is that also not critical and shaming of any woman who chooses to show a similar amount of skin, or wear similar clothing?

Similar clothing might not apply to many video game outfits (those can get a bit wacky) but showing the same amount of skin by choice certainly does.

Personally, I'm not all that bothered by the increased loss of sexuality in video games, but it does feel somewhat hypocritical to be judgmental of video game characters, and then outraged at people who are critical of real women who show the same amount of skin as those characters.

It feels like you just about completely ignored the question I was asking, rather than responding to it. You bought up some other points, however, and I'll try to address yours now. If you care to come back and explain your thoughts on my original post, please do.

This is just projecting anyway, no evidence whatsoever suggests they wanted a hot lara costume but big bad feminism forced them not to have it. Lara is still designed to appeal to men, just in a different way than in the past. That she's not appealing enough to some particular people because she doesn't have any revealing costumes doesn't mean feminism is the reason for various people here to go off on rants about the hypocricy of the movement that wants women free to do as they please but forces digital women to not do that, lol.

Lara isn't really the entire point, here, just an example. The developers are certainly free to do as they please, and I'll not make any assumptions as to their true wishes, which would just be disingenuous. The issue is that developers are hearing from twitter, and game journalists and reviewers, who are saying loud and clear that female sexuality displayed in video games should be viewed as offensive. "If you put this in your game, you're doing a bad thing." It's a morality appeal, no different than when it was the religious right doing it 25 years ago.

And when you try to shape the world into what your ideology demands--be it conservative Christianity or liberal feminism--at the expense of everyone who happens to disagree, then I have an issue with that. Many people have an issue with that, and they resent the fact that their preferences are dismissed and shamed as being sinful problematic.

Maybe devs are simply finally free from having to have such designs for once? Maybe game sales for once can be high without such designs?

Game sales could have always been high without sexualizing female characters. I don't think most people are going to not buy a game because the women don't look quite as sexy anymore. Again, the issue is that judgement is being expressed by people in the industry demanding that their preferences be treated as gospel, and other preferences be treated as morally corrupt. And that's not a change in tastes. That's "Elvis is corrupting the youth" levels of intolerance for differing tastes.

Hypocricy is to be against "censoring" yet want to force the type of costume you want in games and accuse every convenient thing as the reason behind the lack of it when it could just be what the devs want. I mean, they were always far different to eastern game designs after all, did you have threads asking for western designers to be free of their shackles and make characters like the Japanese do? Or just assumed it's what they wanted instead but don't want to make such a thought now that the designs no longer appeal to whoever?

I don't want to force developers to make any game they don't want to. I don't even want to encourage them to make something they don't want to. But I do want more gamers, and journalists, and reviewers to stop treating their preferences as holy, and other's as sinful. Same goes for all the people who whine about Gone Home or Dream Daddy. If you don't like something, don't buy it! Stop acting like everyone needs to support your preferences, and stop suggesting other people's preferences are "wrong" or "bad."

Which brings me back to what you said:

Characters aren't criticized, their creators are when there are grounds for said criticism.

And that's the problem. People treating others as "bad" because of their sexual preferences. Now where have I hard that before. The only grounds for said criticism ultimately come down to "I think what you like is bad, and I don't think you should have it. I'm going to tell everyone how bad it is, until they stop making it. I'm going to tell anyone who is still making it how bad they are for making it. I don't want it to exist. I don't want anyone to have it." Because when you criticize something from a perspective of morality, that is exactly what you are saying.

But don't get me wrong. I played Tomb Raider and Spiderman without noticing or caring about how Lara or Black Cat were not as sexualized as before. I don't care about that. What I care about is judgmental people pushing their opinions on others, and shaming people who don't agree. I cared about it when it was the right, and I care about it now that it's the left.

Lastly, to go back to what I asked, adjusted for semantics and expanded a bit:

When developers are criticized and shamed for their characters showing too much skin, how is that also not critical and shaming of any woman who chooses to show a similar amount of skin, or wear similar clothing? How is it not shaming and judging women who enjoy those character designs, or choose to cosplay as that character?

If you'd care to discuss this aspect of the situation further, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. I think it's hypocritical, but I'd be happy to hear your reasoning if you disagree. If you want me to expand on anything I posted above, feel free to ask or challenge my thoughts with your own.

 

[nkarafo]

I'll just be over here respecting gaming's right to grow up and stop portraying most women as dolls for male amusement.

OP just gave you an example of the opposite (portraying a man as a doll for female amusement).

It's like left leaning people can't grasp the concept of double standards.