Aceofspades
Banned
Does Sony or MS have to opt for APU designs to maintain BC compatibility? Cant they used seperate AMD CPU and GPU combos?
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Rumor: PS5 devkits ~ 13 TFLOPS
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LordOfChaos
Member
Unclear...Remember when Microsoft made the 360 Slim as a single chip, they actually had to artificially increase the latency between the two to ensure 100% compatibility? Even with a high bandwidth bridge between the two, it's possible the latency would cause some edge case issues.
Though this also depends on low level vs portable GNMX and DX for Xbox are.
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SonGoku
Member
Wasn't there an inherit performance advantage of having CPU and GPU on the same die?
LordOfChaos
Member
Yup, that's why the 360 Slim had to artificially increase the latency between the CPU and GPU to keep it the same as two distinct chips. when they moved to single. So same problem in the reverse direction is possible if they didn't do an APU, there might be cases where the short round trip latency not being there anymore, even with all the bandwidth in the world between the two, could cause issues. Again I have no insight into how portable GNMX was designed to be though.
SonGoku
Member
But the 360 slim wasn't even on the same die afaik.
GNMX is the potato higher level api though, GNM is where is at for most AAA i would think.
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LordOfChaos
Member
They called it the CGPU, jogging my memory now...If the CPU was still a distinct die maybe it was still moving to an MCM that they had to introduce more latency for.
"they introduced a module to present latency between CPU and GPU imitating as if there is a FSB connection. "
Welcome to Valhalla: Inside the New 250GB Xbox 360 Slim
Codename Vejle: Xbox 360 S combined CPU/GPU
Dean Takahashi with VentureBeat got the goods on the the new Xbox 360 S CPU/GPU. And evidently Valhalla wasn't the codename. The codename is Vejle instead. Check out the rest of the article here...
forum.beyond3d.com
You're right, GNM rather.
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SonGoku
Member
Damn i just googled it, im having the biggest case of mandela effect
I remember the forums discussions and articles, that it combined everything into a single package but cpu and gpu retained individual dies.
LordOfChaos
Member
Yeah looks like it was, but they did still have to emulate higher latency. Three dies became two on an MCM
Microsoft beats Intel, AMD to market with CPU/GPU combo chip
Engineers from Microsoft's Xbox group unveiled details of the new SoC that …
arstechnica.com
It would have been easier and more natural to just connect the CPU and GPU with a high-bandwidth, low-latency internal connection, but that would have made the new SoC faster in some respects than the older systems, and that's not allowed. So they had to introduce this separate module onto the chip that could actually add latency between the CPU and GPU blocks, and generally behave like an off-die FSB.
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Ar¢tos
Member
There is no mandatory need for pure hardware BC. We are talking x86 to x86, so the hardware can easily be virtualized, whether by APU or CPU+GPU (assuming some sort of shared memory pool for the later, otherwise things get more complex).
Aceofspades
Banned
Sony had also combined Cell and RSX into one chip in latest PS3 models to cut costs and improve thermals. Its one hell of engineering achievement given the complexity of Cell and the memory system of the PS3.
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LordOfChaos
Member
They did? This was the Super Slim, also I remember the CPU and GPU ended on offset fab generations
PlayStation 3 technical specifications - Wikipedia
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bitbydeath
Member
Playing Days Gone I welcome this.
wccftech.com
Sony: An Ultra High-Speed SSD Is The Key to Our Next-Gen, Making Loading Screens a Thing of the Past
A Sony spokesperson shared a new statement on the PS5, stating that the ultra high-speed SSD is the key to the next-generation hardware.
wccftech.com
LordOfChaos
Member
Playing Days Gone I welcome this.
Sony: An Ultra High-Speed SSD Is The Key to Our Next-Gen, Making Loading Screens a Thing of the Past
A Sony spokesperson shared a new statement on the PS5, stating that the ultra high-speed SSD is the key to the next-generation hardware.
The amount they are pushing "making load screens a thing of the past" is making the hybrid solution seem less likely imo. If they had a rust drive and a flash storage part that just pulled your most used games in, loading a game from the hard drive part would be even more painfully slow than already with a generation designed for flash from the ground up. But then I still have to wonder about external drive support if that was the case.
Then again again, we spent most of the 8th gens life without external drive support on the PS4.
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Aceofspades
Banned
I remember reading it somewhere in 2012, not sure if its combining Cell and Rsx or shrinking them to smaller node.They did? This was the Super Slim, also I remember the CPU and GPU ended on offset fab generations
PlayStation 3 technical specifications - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Insane Metal
Member
Damn! They are hyping really hard this ssd thing. Maybe the rumors about Sony getting a *very* good HBM deal was actually referring to NAND storage? Zen 2 + PCIe 4.0 will bring insane speeds... if Sony somehow managed to get SSD goodness for a great price...Playing Days Gone I welcome this.
Sony: An Ultra High-Speed SSD Is The Key to Our Next-Gen, Making Loading Screens a Thing of the Past
A Sony spokesperson shared a new statement on the PS5, stating that the ultra high-speed SSD is the key to the next-generation hardware.
bitbydeath
Member
I’d imagine you could still have an external hdd but it couldn’t run or stream games from it as that’d impact the playability of the game itself.
It’d be limited to housing games only.
Here’s hoping the HDD they put in is 2TB.
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wordslaughter
Banned
I'm curious how Sony is planning on "making loading screens a thing of the past"?
I know they are talking about some very fast SSD and that will definitely help, but faster loading and no loading are different and there's also a point where faster SSD's don't seem to help anymore. ( for game loading speeds )
On PC moving from HDD to SSD makes a huge difference in loading times. But for SOME REASON moving from SSD to NVMe makes almost no difference at all. You basically save ONE SECOND despite the NVMe being 5x faster than the fastest sata based SSD.
There's another bottleneck in the system somewhere, but I don't know where it is. Maybe the move from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0 will improve this situation?
I know they are talking about some very fast SSD and that will definitely help, but faster loading and no loading are different and there's also a point where faster SSD's don't seem to help anymore. ( for game loading speeds )
On PC moving from HDD to SSD makes a huge difference in loading times. But for SOME REASON moving from SSD to NVMe makes almost no difference at all. You basically save ONE SECOND despite the NVMe being 5x faster than the fastest sata based SSD.
There's another bottleneck in the system somewhere, but I don't know where it is. Maybe the move from PCIe 3.0 to 4.0 will improve this situation?
bitbydeath
Member
Another interesting part is the example Cerny gave with being able to move faster in games as the world can build out quicker which to me hints at frame rates also getting a decent boost.
wordslaughter
Banned
Maybe. I thought he was talking about asset streaming speed in open worlds. This can be a problem on an old HDD. If anything hints at faster framerates it's the HUGE CPU upgrade. Sure not all games are CPU bound, but if there is such a thing as an average framerate for this gen I think it's definitely going to be higher next gen.
bitbydeath
Member
Wouldn’t frame rate be a potential bottle neck to your movement?
Everyone always mentions needing 60fps for twitch shooters which both examples would require fast (smooth) movements putting them in the same ball park.
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Imtjnotu
Member
Well god of War didn't have a single loading screen during the game. And it was linear but to have something remotely similar in an open world game is amazing.
bitbydeath
Member
The loading is masked.
When your travelling between realms everything slows down so when you exit the door the new area exists.
Also GoW has loading when you boot up the game. Sony is talking about removing all of that.
wordslaughter
Banned
No, framerate isn't exactly a bottleneck for movement speed. You could fly at high speed through an open world like GTA at 5fps if you wanted.
High framerate for twitch shooters is desirable mostly for control response time but also for smooth visuals - a lot can change in a near instant in these games. But framerate won't affect how fast your character can move through the environment.
I'm fairly certain Cerny was talking about streaming in assets in open worlds. A good example of what Cerny was talking about is GTA 5 on the PS3/360. If you bought the digital version you had MUCH more pop-in than if you bought the physical disc. We're talking entire buildings just poping into existence at close range. The reason for this is that the game was designed to stream media in from the disc (slow) AND the HDD (slow) simultaneously. If you got the digital version then you could only stream in assets from the HDD but there was no disc to also stream assets in from. Slow + slow is faster than slow alone.
SSD's improve speeds massively.
What I would REALLY like to see disappear next gen is POP IN. I hate it. I hate watching things pop into existence constantly. Take Assassins Cred Odyssey for example. Great game but the pop in is so distracting IMO.
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Imtjnotu
Member
I'm talking loading screens. Yes it was masked and there might have been a minor slow down but there wasn't a single loading screen during the game.
We don't know about boot load screens because the game shown was in game fast traveling. But if you could reduce or remove the load screens from gta, horizon, and Spiderman, I'm in for all that too
Stuart360
Member
On PC, games that stream alot of assets are helped a ton by SSD's
TLZ
Banned
That's great. I hope it isn't proprietary though, then replacing with another means Sony selling us expensive SSDs. Or maybe on the other hand they sell like hot cake and become widespread and a success like Blu-ray that everyone wants one.Playing Days Gone I welcome this.
Sony: An Ultra High-Speed SSD Is The Key to Our Next-Gen, Making Loading Screens a Thing of the Past
A Sony spokesperson shared a new statement on the PS5, stating that the ultra high-speed SSD is the key to the next-generation hardware.
pawel86ck
Banned
Because SONY need millions of GPU's they probably get very good price from AMD, and on top of that they only need to buy chip from AMD without PCB, memory.
In 2012 sony had to pay around 100$ for both CPU and GPU, and there's no way you could buy back then GPU and CPU for 100$ on PC market.
I think price is not the issue when it comes to consoles, but rather temps and power consumption. In xbox classic era MS have bought the best chip from Nv, it was geforce 3/4 mix, high end GPU. The same with x360, first GPU with unified shaders and amazing performance (just one year before xbox360 launch people have used 6800 ultra in SLI to get the same results). In xbox one era however temps and power consumption was already a problem, so they couldnt use high end GPU anymore.
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Insane Metal
Member
Post copied from Reset:
ResilientBanana
Member
Isn't PCIe 5.0 finalized at this point?
demigod
Member
Post copied from Reset:
What a load of bs. That does not explain why Spiderman loaded so fast.
TLZ
Banned
Would the PS5 have something like this in it?
Radeon Instinct™ MI25 Accelerator
Superior FP16 and FP32 performance for machine intelligence and deep learning.
Compute Units: 64
Stream Processors: 4096
Peak Half Precision (FP16) Performance: 24.6 TFLOPs
Peak Single Precision (FP32) Performance: 12.29 TFLOPs
Peak Double Precision (FP64) Performance: 768 GFLOPs
Memory Size: 16 GB
Memory Type (GPU): HBM2
Memory Bandwidth: 484 GB/s
Radeon Instinct™ MI25 Accelerator
Superior FP16 and FP32 performance for machine intelligence and deep learning.
Compute Units: 64
Stream Processors: 4096
Peak Half Precision (FP16) Performance: 24.6 TFLOPs
Peak Single Precision (FP32) Performance: 12.29 TFLOPs
Peak Double Precision (FP64) Performance: 768 GFLOPs
Memory Size: 16 GB
Memory Type (GPU): HBM2
Memory Bandwidth: 484 GB/s
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yes but it is for servers, and won't be on desktop for many years
Insane Metal
Member
TLZ
Banned
Yea. These Instinct are made for servers, but I was curious because the specs match the rumors we see. It's on 14nm though.
This one's on 7nm:
AMD Radeon Instinct™ MI50 Accelerator
Compute Units: 60
Stream Processors: 3840
Peak Half Precision (FP16) Performance: 26.8 TFLOPs
Peak Single Precision (FP32) Performance: 13.4 TFLOPs
Peak Double Precision (FP64) Performance: 6.7 TFLOPs
Memory Size: 16 GB
Memory Type (GPU): HBM2
Memory Bandwidth: 1024 GB/s
Looks excessive.
Oh and it uses PCie 4.
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bitbydeath
Member
Anyone else find it funny that per second and sarcasm uses the same symbol.
That’s 800GB per sarcasm.
That’s 800GB per sarcasm.
Imtjnotu
Member
My hopes
SonGoku
Member
and dreams
xGreir
Member
I will take even 8 TF if we can have HBM tech instead of GDDR, and forget about pop ins
I'm satisfied with the actual graphics of a base PS4, I will take a PS5 that's just a PS4 Pro with better CPU and a SSD/HBM combo everyday every hour.
Better textures, bigger and more detailed worlds, more options, better IA, richer environments, 1080p, fast and furious
I'm satisfied with the actual graphics of a base PS4, I will take a PS5 that's just a PS4 Pro with better CPU and a SSD/HBM combo everyday every hour.
Better textures, bigger and more detailed worlds, more options, better IA, richer environments, 1080p, fast and furious
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CyberPanda
Banned
People just think HBM is hip and cool, yo.
bitbydeath
Member
TLZ
Banned
What's gddr6 bandwidth?
Imtjnotu
Member
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xool
Member
Both got several die shrinks that gen.
Single 16GB package instead of 2 8GB packages explains it perfectly
[edit - well half the packages and double the package capacity - halfs the effective bus width - whatever the actual numbers]
[edit2 - it'll be a 2048 bit bus like vega64, not 4096 like vega20 . why - dunno ..]
[edit3 - there was an update to the HBM2 spec that allowed over 8GB per stack in late 2018 ]
I'm assuming that they didn't just cheap out on RAM, and instead decided that the application (compute) didn't need as much memory bandwidth - the explanation for this might be that compute doesn't need those huge textures like gfx .. so they could get away with less memory bandwidth - but this part isn't going to be cheap - sort of thing government funded research institutes buy ($$$) so I have a hard time explaining this step backwards.. Maybe it was the spec given by this big order https://www.anandtech.com/show/1430...ntier-supercomputer-cray-and-amd-1-5-exaflops
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Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Those server cards are just the Vega 64 and Vega VII.
TeamGhobad
Banned
Once again RAM will be the deciding factor this gen, Unified or split and type.
I wouldnt be surprised if MS went with unified GDDR6 and sony split the pool with HBM2 and DDR4.
Not sure who would have the advantage, i know CPU tasks are latency sensitive but a unified pool is easier for devs.
The rest of the specs we know both are using zen2 8c SMT might be disabled or completely removed
GPUs in the 12-14tflops range. Both are using SSDs.
Whoever miscalculates the RAM will lose just like last gen with MS and their DDR3 and Esram taking up half the SoC.
I wouldnt be surprised if MS went with unified GDDR6 and sony split the pool with HBM2 and DDR4.
Not sure who would have the advantage, i know CPU tasks are latency sensitive but a unified pool is easier for devs.
The rest of the specs we know both are using zen2 8c SMT might be disabled or completely removed
GPUs in the 12-14tflops range. Both are using SSDs.
Whoever miscalculates the RAM will lose just like last gen with MS and their DDR3 and Esram taking up half the SoC.
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