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[DanielsM]

This means Xbone is at 50 mil as of Dec. 31st 2019 and means Xbone is UP YOY. This little contradicts this post of yours :

I have xbone sales at a little over 47m at the end of 2019, waiting on confirmation on statista. I have Switch at a little over 49m at the end of 2019. Those are my numbers not statista.

I seriously doubt Xbone sales were 8m units last year, closer to half... my number is 4.8m units. (awaiting on statista info)

2019 was not a good year if my numbers hold up for Xbone, as a percentage its falling fast from a bad number already. PS4 dropped probably around 15%, xbone around 30%. The switch went up about 4m+ units from my numbers.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

I have xbone sales at a little over 47m at the end of 2019, waiting on confirmation on statista.

I'm also thinking similar. 3 mil. alone in US 2019 and 2-2.5 mil ROTW.

 

[CeeJay]

Just moved in December bro, moved to Samsung A10e. Threw it away but I think I have a backup for parts upstairs one second.

Update bro:

I actually had two of the 640s and I think a 520 at one point. Never had win7 phone though.

Want to see my Xbox collection, you can see my Surface in the background.

Nah, I have seen enough

 

[lock2k]

Maybe they should become multiplatform and offer Gamepass on all the platforms.

 

[Nester99]

In other news
Water is wet

 

[DanielsM]

Maybe they should become multiplatform and offer Gamepass on all the platforms.

They can become a traditional publishers but Game Pass would probably have to be limited to Microsoft games if going to other platforms i.e. EA Access. Than they have to give a cut to the platform holder. Microsoft wants to have a platform as a service (PaaS) the problem with that is its unrealistic in the gaming industry especially in closed systems.

I generally agree with you, the problem is... Nadella wants services and not sure there is a real opportunity there with how everything is setup.

Under the situation I lined up, sure Microsoft could have a gaming business, but it would have to probably shrink drastically - traditional publisher... they don't want that though.

 

[lock2k]

They can become a traditional publishers but Game Pass would probably have to be limited to Microsoft games if going to other platforms i.e. EA Access. Than they have to give a cut to the platform holder. Microsoft wants to have a platform as a service (PaaS) the problem with that is its unrealistic in the gaming industry especially in closed systems.

I generally agree with you, the problem is... Nadella wants services and not sure there is a real opportunity there with how everything is setup.

Yes, this is how it would have to be done.

That said, I wouldn't mind playing Halo and Sony games on the same console, or MS and Nintendo games.

 

[Clear]

The reality is that Xbox as a unit needs a significant turnaround in the next few years or its at risk of being deprioritized or spun off. No publicly-traded corporation will continue to support a marginally profitable unit indefinitely, it runs counter to the profit maximization philosophy that underpins all big business.

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

The damage control seems to be that GP subscriptions are up but where I live GP has always been free entry for the first 1-3 months?

This report is abysmal.

Abysmal... really?

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

The reality is that Xbox as a unit needs a significant turnaround in the next few years or its at risk of being deprioritized or spun off. No publicly-traded corporation will continue to support a marginally profitable unit indefinitely, it runs counter to the profit maximization philosophy that underpins all big business.

I love the GAF members who also sit on major corporate boards. So much insight.

 

[Aidah]

Xbox must really know how to hold its breath, with how long it's been diving.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Just moved in December bro, moved to Samsung A10e. Threw it away but I think I have a backup for parts upstairs one second.

Update bro:

I actually had two of the 640s and I think a 520 at one point. Never had win7 phone though.

Want to see my Xbox collection, you can see my Surface in the background.

Honestly, the Lumia 920 on Windows Phone 8.1 was probably the best cell phone experience. So quick and snappy, it put a lot of Androids to shame, even iPhone in some regards. Clearly it did not have apps, but it was great for what I used it for.

 

[Nikana]

Honestly, the Lumia 920 on Windows Phone 8.1 was probably the best cell phone experience. So quick and snappy, it put a lot of Androids to shame, even iPhone in some regards. Clearly it did not have apps, but it was great for what I used it for.

Red 920 owner here. Still my favorite phone ever. I use sqaure home on android now just to relive the feeling. I eventually went to an Icon/930 and while it was even more fast than the 920, there was something about the 920 that was just special. Not to mention that camera.

 

[DanielsM]

Honestly, the Lumia 920 on Windows Phone 8.1 was probably the best cell phone experience. So quick and snappy, it put a lot of Androids to shame, even iPhone in some regards. Clearly it did not have apps, but it was great for what I used it for.

I didn't mind the WPs I used (Lumia), I would say wm8 was better than wm10. Kind of like the tablet experience for win8 was better than win10, yeah, I got real win 8 and 10 tablets (not just the surface) too! I hate spending a ton on a phone, which is why I was getting Lumia's... was buying them during $29.99 sales. I had to really spend the big bucks on Samsung like $140 this time. I never use too many apps, its really just a phone to me and use maps. Every time someone would see my WP they would be like... "huh, what is that? Never even heard of it."

People see my windows tablets and have no idea what it is. Years ago, I use to hook up my Windows Phone to a full size monitor and keyboard at a place I would business visit and could do just about everything everyone else's computer could do... if not I would just remote into my PC or a VD.... everyone would be wow, that's crazy. Not one of them were interested in buying it.

I think the consumer just gave up on them, so no matter what they do next, no matter how good or cool the product is.... bridges are burned forever.

 

[Clear]

I love the GAF members who also sit on major corporate boards. So much insight.

Its how the world works you dolt. Shareholder value rules all, and they will always press for what enriches them.

You need to understand also that all the big moves Xbox has been making of late carry a significant recurrent monetary burden, all those newly acquired studios will be burning millions, month-in. month-out and that is going to end up in ledgers and on balance sheets. And yes, while I'm sure the bean-counters at MS will have done their due-diligence before signing them up, should their output fail to meet expectations they will be under immediate scrutiny.

The honest truth is if all MS recent acquisitions last more than 5-6 years (1-2 product cycles) before being shut-down or absorbed into other studios, it'll be a fucking miracle. Because that's the normal pattern of business within the industry.

This is why I'm generally against consolidation. regardless of who's doing it. Independents live and die by their own efforts, corporate units are always at the mercy of overall strategy and profitability concerns of their parent.
Which in turn is driven by the demands of the stock-market.

 

[wolffy71]

With revenue of 11.4B xbox gaming itself would still be on of the top 1000 companies by revenue(for 2019) in the entire world. And that's in a year that is considered down due to end of cycle. Ahead of companies like Seagate, First Energy, Corning, and Nintendo. I really doubt you're gonna see xbox go away any time soon.

 

[phil_t98]

The reality is that Xbox as a unit needs a significant turnaround in the next few years or its at risk of being deprioritized or spun off. No publicly-traded corporation will continue to support a marginally profitable unit indefinitely, it runs counter to the profit maximization philosophy that underpins all big business.

how is there no profit in xbox brand? serious question, yeah not as profitable as ps4 but no profit or little profit seems wild guess

 

[GHG]

how is there no profit in xbox brand? serious question, yeah not as profitable as ps4 but no profit or little profit seems wild guess

They've just gone one a studio spending spree and to quote Phil Spencer they are in a period of "investment" with gamepass.

Combine those things with R&D for the new hardware, R&D for xCloud and the fact that their sales numbers are down across the board and it becomes increasingly difficult to believe the division is profitable at the moment.

I'm curious to see how they plan on transitioning everything towards profitability at some point in the future. Or are we supposed to believe Microsoft are going to continue to prop them up for the foreseeable future?

 

[Dane]

Have you just arrived here from 2016?

Dunno man, what about you?

 

[Jigsaah]

I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm expecting a change in overall momentum this year.. maybe I'm totally wrong, but even broken clocks are right twice in one day so...

I think we might move away from this paradigm where Sony dominates everything. I just don't know how or when. Maybe I'm being very foolish. It will be a learning experience, if nothing else..

Sony will continue to dominate, but who fuckin cares. People who are beholden to Sony are missing out. Just like people who are exclusively up Microsoft's ass are missing out. The real question is, when are people gonna stop thinking like shareholders and more like consumers. I got no skin in the game. I want my Halo, Forza and Gears. I want my Ori, Hellblade II and my Game pass. I also want my Last of Us 2. I want (but can't justify) VR. Need God of War and Bloodborne. I just beat Spiderman last week and as much as I was ragging on it before, it actually got pretty good toward the end.

Btw I'd like to play a switch, but I really only want a couple of games and everything my finger is on the trigger some new rumor comes out about the next best thing. Now we know there's gonna be a pro, so here I am, waiting....all over again. I treat switch like I treat my PC...always holding off to do the upgrade. And I still feel like I'm missing out.

My point is....fuck it you get the point.

 

[A.Romero]

I suspect they knew this was happening so they rushed to announce Series X knowing it would impact their current gen sales so they have an excuse for investors.

That said, I do expect Microsoft to do much better than this next time. Buidling their first party offering is where is at. Paired with Gamepass and what seems to be a really good console, they have a good fighting chance.

 

[phil_t98]

They've just gone one a studio spending spree and to quote Phil Spencer they are in a period of "investment" with gamepass.

Combine those things with R&D for the new hardware, R&D for xCloud and the fact that their sales numbers are down across the board and it becomes increasingly difficult to believe the division is profitable at the moment.

I'm curious to see how they plan on transitioning everything towards profitability at some point in the future. Or are we supposed to believe Microsoft are going to continue to prop them up for the foreseeable future?

Yeah but don’t forget Xbox one sold close to 50 mill plus the games sold plus licence for third party games, xboxlive subs and there will still be 360 Xbox live subs (not many) plus game pass. They will be pretty healthy with money.

 

[Mod of War]

You need another ban obvs.

Knock this type of rhetoric off.

Don't let me catch anyone ban baiting from either side of the fan fences as well.

 

[Nikana]

Knock this type of rhetoric off.

Don't let me catch anyone ban baiting from either side of the fan fences as well.

Fair enough.

 

[wolffy71]

how is there no profit in xbox brand? serious question, yeah not as profitable as ps4 but no profit or little profit seems wild guess

One thing to keep in mind is , revenue is down due to hardware being down significantly. However hardware is the least profitable portion of the biz..

 

[phil_t98]

One thing to keep in mind is , revenue is down due to hardware being down significantly. However hardware is the least profitable portion of the biz..

But it’s still profitable and they sold roughly 50mill and as I said add the other bits and there is a lot of money still coming In

 

[DanielsM]

But it’s still profitable and they sold roughly 50mill and as I said add the other bits and there is a lot of money still coming In

Microsoft does not give those types of financials out, fyi.

One thing to keep in mind is , revenue is down due to hardware being down significantly. However hardware is the least profitable portion of the biz..

Well, yeah, they would rather everyone just bought games off the MS Store and downloaded on their Win10 machine. However, if you already put R&D, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, etc.... its about ROI on the hardware. Of course, they would rather forget the hardware and have everyone subscribe... but where would people subscribe too without the hardware right now?

The troubling part is that "services", it might have grown (?), but its not growing like it should if they were going to rely on services alone. Xbox as you know it would have to shrink drastically.

Just my take.

Where is the service revenue they were talking about for years... games as a service, platform as a service, etc. ? My guess is that 99% of their service revenue comes from Xbox Live Gold, we'll never know as they won't even give Gold subscriber counts.

 

[MvCSpiderman]

Is this news? This happens at the end of every consoles life cycle.

 

[Shambala]

Is this news? This happens at the end of every consoles life cycle.

Lol this been happening almost all gen

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

This isn’t a surprise to anyone. Sony’s down too. Gamespot Is hemorrhaging. The only system keeping the industry afloat right now is Nintendo. Everything’s taken a nose dive until next gen.

Bingo. Most customers know next gen platforms are on the horizon.

 

[wolffy71]

Microsoft does not give those types of financials out, fyi.



Well, yeah, they would rather everyone just bought games off the MS Store and downloaded on their Win10 machine. However, if you already put R&D, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, etc.... its about ROI on the hardware. Of course, they would rather forget the hardware and have everyone subscribe... but where would people subscribe too without the hardware right now?

The troubling part is that "services", it might have grown (?), but its not growing like it should if they were going to rely on services alone. Xbox as you know it would have to shrink drastically.

Just my take.

Where is the service revenue they were talking about for years... games as a service, platform as a service, etc. ? My guess is that 99% of their service revenue comes from Xbox Live Gold, we'll never know as they won't even give Gold subscriber counts.

The return on investment Is looked at as the entire return of the division. You cant sell games, dlc, game pass, and gold subs without the hardware initially(on the console side). So while Im sure they want to sell as many units as the possibly can, the hardware itself doesn't drive profitability other than gaining a customer. In other words they could sell zero new units and be profitable most likely.(other than new R&D/investments which we have no way of knowing)

 

[DanielsM]

The return on investment Is looked at as the entire return of the division. You cant sell games, dlc, game pass, and gold subs without the hardware initially(on the console side). So while Im sure they want to sell as many units as the possibly can, the hardware itself doesn't drive profitability other than gaining a customer. In other words they could sell zero new units and be profitable most likely.(other than new R&D/investments which we have no way of knowing)

Oh as as a unit, yeah, totally could be making money, but I find it hard to believe since they appear to have been losing big on the Xbox 360 with many more customers. (although we'll probably never know)

I wonder why MS is hiding all these numbers, especially service numbers? (I have a good idea why... limited, small or no growth)

Bingo. Most customers know next gen platforms are on the horizon.

Yes and no, probably will be a drop-off hardware sales for PS4 as well, my guess 15-25%, the issue is.... Xbone sales have been going down at a drastic rate since 2014. And I would say the over all trend actually started almost 10 years ago.

Consoles might not matter but service revenue does matter at that point, imo.

Actually the Xbone didn't sell bad the first 2 years or so, than it just continued to grind from the peak of the Xbox 360 in 2011. Xbox 360 sales in 2012 were roughly 10.96m units, I have Xbone sales in 2019 at around 4.8m (waiting on confirmation... these are my numbers right now)... its not really the same at all.

I have PS4 at 14.1m down from 18m in 2018.

Yes, you will see a decline in hardware for 2019 and probably for 2020 as part of a normal new cycle.

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

Its how the world works you dolt. Shareholder value rules all, and they will always press for what enriches them.

You need to understand also that all the big moves Xbox has been making of late carry a significant recurrent monetary burden, all those newly acquired studios will be burning millions, month-in. month-out and that is going to end up in ledgers and on balance sheets. And yes, while I'm sure the bean-counters at MS will have done their due-diligence before signing them up, should their output fail to meet expectations they will be under immediate scrutiny.

The honest truth is if all MS recent acquisitions last more than 5-6 years (1-2 product cycles) before being shut-down or absorbed into other studios, it'll be a fucking miracle. Because that's the normal pattern of business within the industry.

This is why I'm generally against consolidation. regardless of who's doing it. Independents live and die by their own efforts, corporate units are always at the mercy of overall strategy and profitability concerns of their parent.
Which in turn is driven by the demands of the stock-market.

Yet you act as if those board members were not briefed on the investments with the caveats of near-term impact and expected returns. That seconded by you obvious animosity toward MS in general shows me your post was not meant to be sincere on insightful. Just more trash at a company you don't support.

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

Oh as as a unit, yeah, totally could be making money, but I find it hard to believe since they appear to have been losing big on the Xbox 360 with many more customers. (although we'll probably never know)

I wonder why MS is hiding all these numbers, especially service numbers? (I have a good idea why... limited, small or no growth)



Yes and no, probably will be a drop-off hardware sales for PS4 as well, my guess 15-25%, the issue is.... Xbone sales have been going down at a drastic rate since 2014. And I would say the over all trend actually started almost 10 years ago.

Consoles might not matter but service revenue does matter at that point, imo.

Actually the Xbone didn't sell bad the first 2 years or so, than it just continued to grind from the peak of the Xbox 360 in 2011. Xbox 360 sales in 2012 were roughly 10.96m units, I have Xbone sales in 2019 at around 4.8m (waiting on confirmation... these are my numbers right now)... its not really the same at all.

I have PS4 at 14.1m down from 18m in 2018.

Yes, you will see a decline in hardware for 2019 and probably for 2020 as part of a normal new cycle.

Here you act as if a company who is not in 1st place yet still making money, is a failing business. Money is money. No one platform in the game business has ever stayed in the top position of hardware sales.

 

[DanielsM]

Here you act as if a company who is not in 1st place yet still making money, is a failing business. Money is money. No one platform in the game business has ever stayed in the top position of hardware sales.

Well, you are reading someone that isn't me, never said any such thing or implied. Many devices co-exist iPhone/Android phone, iPad/Android tablet, fitbit/apple watches, echo voice devices/ google voice devices, etc. some times there is a shift, if you miss the shift you're basically out.

But whether or not what I believe is irrelevant - for Microsoft its what Nadella believes.

Microsoft CEO: "I did not get why the world needed the third ecosystem in phones" - MSPoweruser

It’s no revelation that current Microsoft CEO was against the Nokia Mobile acquisition in 2013, but in his new autobiography, Nadella revealed his thoughts at the time, which I suspected also guided his subsequent actions when he replaced Steve Ballmer in 2014. In his book, Hit Refresh, he...

mspoweruser.com

Most of the consumer devices/markets are now basically beyond Microsoft's reach, in my opinion, people gave up long ago.... as a generalization. Nadella already gave up on the consumer, really only a few things left, obviously he gave Phil more time and money... we'll see.

 

[yurinka]

Is it the $1 Gamepass that's hurting MS?

It isn't just the $1. MS pays money on advance to devs for putting their games. Add server costs, that would be even way more in the future with streaming... game pass must hurt their revenue and profits, for sure. But well, they may earn with that MAUs or whatever other metric they focus on now.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, this is how it would have to be done.

That said, I wouldn't mind playing Halo and Sony games on the same console, or MS and Nintendo games.

I'd hate for Nintendo to put their games on a Sony or MS console personally.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Unofficially I have Switch 2m over Xbone at the end of 2019, waiting on confirmation from statista.

He is right, they have money, but the bet was made years ago i.e. services. My bet none of this works out for Microsoft, the numbers do not support any huge services upswing like they did in business/enterprise years ago. Literally, some services were growth 100%+ a quarter.

I'm not sure what services they think gamers really need or are demanding, or even large publishers. I'm still trying to figure out what they think people are going to subscribe to and where from i.e. platforms. This wasn't the case in business/enterprise i.e. office and back office software, and cloud computing server solutions.

Xbox Live Gold people were willing to throw down $30-60 a year for, but doubt the wallet opens up much other than for that. No ability to expand XBLG to other platforms.

It's going to get worse too because Xbox gamers are being conditioned into not buying games and instead they're waiting to see if they come to gamepass. That's less software sells on 3rd party games

 

[wolffy71]

Oh as as a unit, yeah, totally could be making money, but I find it hard to believe since they appear to have been losing big on the Xbox 360 with many more customers. (although we'll probably never know)

I wonder why MS is hiding all these numbers, especially service numbers? (I have a good idea why... limited, small or no growth)



Yes and no, probably will be a drop-off hardware sales for PS4 as well, my guess 15-25%, the issue is.... Xbone sales have been going down at a drastic rate since 2014. And I would say the over all trend actually started almost 10 years ago.

Consoles might not matter but service revenue does matter at that point, imo.

Actually the Xbone didn't sell bad the first 2 years or so, than it just continued to grind from the peak of the Xbox 360 in 2011. Xbox 360 sales in 2012 were roughly 10.96m units, I have Xbone sales in 2019 at around 4.8m (waiting on confirmation... these are my numbers right now)... its not really the same at all.

I have PS4 at 14.1m down from 18m in 2018.

Yes, you will see a decline in hardware for 2019 and probably for 2020 as part of a normal new cycle.

Theres a few reasons why we don't see as many numbers as people think we should see. Like units sold, probably because the number is much smaller than PS4. They've never shown how many are gold subs. Maybe an average user is worth more than the yearly fee to be gold, so the more telling number is just the overall users.

Secondly we don't see any profit numbers for xbox alone due to the way Microsoft has the divisions set up. I don't think you can find numbers for profits specific to any part of "more personal computing". I would guess that this is because these units share significant infrastructure. They enjoy an economy of scale I would think with a lot of the behind the scene stuff.

 

[DanielsM]

They've never shown how many are gold subs.

The went to MAU than got rid of that. Now they give service revenue but include content game sales.... until they change the metrics again. I just don't see any massive growth in those numbers to off set.

Agree with most of your post, btw.

My take - Phil better start finding some service revenue in the sofa cushions.

 

[Clear]

how is there no profit in xbox brand? serious question, yeah not as profitable as ps4 but no profit or little profit seems wild guess

Its about relative profitability. If something is cheap in terms of opportunity-cost and mildly profitable, its in better shape than a relatively expensive division making the same margin.

More investment = more pressure to justify that investment. Profitable businesses get shut-down or downscaled all the time., because the logic is that the resources/money tied up in them could be reassigned to another more relatively profitable venture.

 

[lock2k]

I'd hate for Nintendo to put their games on a Sony or MS console personally.

No, I implied that Microsoft could put their games on a Sony or Nintendo console.

 

[Mod of War]

And they say this place is called Sony GAF... I bet if Sony post losses you guys will all suddenly say it’s totally fine because that’s just what it’s like.

Keep moving those goal posts kids

This get's old.

There is mud slinging on all sides of the fence, as well as damage control, goal post moving, trolling, shitposting, fanaticism, you get it. I hope.

 

[Clear]

Yet you act as if those board members were not briefed on the investments with the caveats of near-term impact and expected returns. That seconded by you obvious animosity toward MS in general shows me your post was not meant to be sincere on insightful. Just more trash at a company you don't support.

The part of my post you quoted contains me stating that no doubt they were briefed up-front! The issue which you seem to be ignoring is that as investment increases so does scrutiny.

I've not even said anything bad about Xbox, I've just pointed out the economic reality that even though Nadella has backed Spencer this time, the pressure to succeed is now on more than ever. Its just that simple.

 

[CitizenX3639]

The relevancy of MS to my gaming hobby, and to majority of players, zero.zero.

if they shut the doors tomorrow, no one cares. Except the Xqueens

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

The relevancy of MS to my gaming hobby, and to majority of players, zero.zero.

if they shut the doors tomorrow, no one cares. Except the Xqueens

You realize they have 10's of millions of fans. Including me. I care.

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

The relevancy of MS to my gaming hobby, and to majority of players, zero.zero.

if they shut the doors tomorrow, no one cares. Except the Xqueens

This thread, and particularly your feelings toward MS, makes me wonder if this industry will ever mature. I support all companies. I fail to see where wishing harm on one or the other helps our hobby.

 

[CitizenX3639]

This thread, and particularly your feelings toward MS, makes me wonder if this industry will ever mature. I support all companies. I fail to see where wishing harm on one or the other helps our hobby.

To care is they have to present a franchise worth caring about. They have none. Zero.zero.

 

[GameOfPixelsX]

To care is they have to present a franchise worth caring about. They have none. Zero.zero.

You are part of the problem. Particularly on this NeoGAF. You really don't think that people would not disagree with you? Are you really that narrow minded or just stirring shit?

 

[CitizenX3639]

You are part of the problem. Particularly on this NeoGAF. You really don't think that people would not disagree with you? Are you really that narrow minded or just stirring shit?

No, from the looks of it, I think the consumers have spoken. Im more than happen to have owned their stock for decades, so please cntinue to buy. They have you right where they want you.