DaGwaphics
Member
Initially, I thought for sure both Sony & MS would stick to their standard pricing of $400/$500. Hopefully they don't go over $500 (says cheap bastard).
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Microsoft confirms 12 TF RDNA 2 for the Xbox Series X
- Thread starter darkinstinct
- Start date
CyberPanda
Banned
Hehe
Justin9mm
Member
If they come out and say 13.2 TFLOPS or something like that I will roast so hard on this forum! lol
Just like when PC Gamers said next gen is all hyperbole bullshit and then we got the Series X confirmed specs, they were so wrong! Plus games being optimised for the console, the performance is going to be insane. At least on the X, if anyone knows anything about what's in the X, those rumors of running a AAA Native 4K @ 90fps is easily achievable with good optimisation.
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Joey.
Member
Joey. Personally guessing $499. Same price bracket as the X, which resonated pretty well for its specs at that price (and for a mid-gen refresh, at that).
If the BOM is like $525 or lower, I think MS would be okay with taking a slight loss on systems sold. At most, maybe they'll sell it for $550. Either way, I hope there's something with Gamepass thrown in there, or maybe a free month or two of XBL and a free digital download.
Yeah, I think $499 is a fair assumption. All things considered.
Fingers crossed.
You are delusional if you think that this is going to happen. lol.
Justin9mm
Member
Yeah it was a joke mate, I don't honestly think that.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
LOL I don't know what to think anymore. Hard to tell what's real. But, yea, you got me.
Silent Viper
Banned
It's a Monster and it will cost 800$
Silent Viper
Banned
You can't pay 600$?
No matter what number it will be, one thing is for sure: There will be countless Nelson HaHa posts on NeoGAF.
The Shift
Banned
I think Sony will do everything to make it happen - they have no other relevant consumer brands left.
What has Sony got left in the product arsenal these days? Xperia? Walkman? Trinitron? Bravia? Vaio?
They're all dead Jim.
LittleBusters
Banned
I bought a Bravia 4K TV in 2018 if that's worth something.
Memorabilia
Member
Sort of agree. But I still like Sony products. Im typing this on an Xperia that's damn nice. And although I have gone with Vizio TVs for my last couple purchases (great bang for the buck) I'm going to go Sony in 2021/2022 for my next main TV upgrade.
Still, I mostly agree. Sony really only has one dominant product line and that is Playstation.
They also make great cameras and Tvs, but their competition is stronger in those markets. This gen the PS even had no competitor thanks to huge MS mistakes.
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StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I bought a new Sony 4k TV in 2017. Solid picture quality and everything, but the audio ARC is now fucked since they did an update a year ago which interfered with ARC connections. I now have to use an optical cable which works fine. There were forums talking about it.
I switch my TV every 5 years, so next time, I'm going to go cheap and try out a Vizio or TCL. They now have TCLs in Canada the past year and people say it's a good TV for the money. I couldn't believe seeing TCLs at Costco for like $700. I don't need the latest OLED $3000 TV. I just want a good 4k tv with smooth motion and enough ports. If these low priced Vizios or TCLs for sub-$1000 are as good as people say, I'm going to try them out next time instead of a $2000 Sony.
For that price, I can get two of them!
If you go Sony next time, make sure to check forums for sound/ARC issues. I don't know how widespread that is, but for anyone with the Sony 900e series from a few years ago it was an issue.
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Stiflers Mom
Banned
That next gen will be so interesting again, since MS seems to have found their mojo again.
This gen felt like they didn't even care to show up in the beginning.
I never owned a M;icrosoft console before, but that Series X plus games by Obsidian, Double Fine, Inxile and Ninja Theory sound so tempting..
We live in great times, my friends...
This gen felt like they didn't even care to show up in the beginning.
I never owned a M;icrosoft console before, but that Series X plus games by Obsidian, Double Fine, Inxile and Ninja Theory sound so tempting..
We live in great times, my friends...
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
500 GB SSD would make it
I am now convinced that Lockhart is not a thing as a physical console. I think it's just the xCloud server blade that will replace the current One S server blades. The fact that seemingly no one has a Lockhart dev kit tells me that devs can't optimize for it. So it looks to be an automatic process. This suggests that some kind of quality check needs to happen at Microsoft, like they do with the BC program.
If Lockhart is not a console (the Series naming convention allows for there to exist other devices) that means Microsoft is aiming for 399. Take the Kinect away from a One and the launch price would have been that. Also note that there might be a very good reason why Microsoft waited. An APU on 7N+ would be cheaper over lifetime than a 7nm APU. Or offer more power at the same price. Don't be fooled into thinking that more power = higher cost. The 1.3 TF Xbox One APU cost 10 % more than the 1.84 TF PS4 APU. By planning for a 2020 launch vs. a 2019 launch Microsoft could have achieved that, a 12 TF console for 399. With a 500 GB SSD of course. And 16 GB RAM.
I am now convinced that Lockhart is not a thing as a physical console. I think it's just the xCloud server blade that will replace the current One S server blades. The fact that seemingly no one has a Lockhart dev kit tells me that devs can't optimize for it. So it looks to be an automatic process. This suggests that some kind of quality check needs to happen at Microsoft, like they do with the BC program.
If Lockhart is not a console (the Series naming convention allows for there to exist other devices) that means Microsoft is aiming for 399. Take the Kinect away from a One and the launch price would have been that. Also note that there might be a very good reason why Microsoft waited. An APU on 7N+ would be cheaper over lifetime than a 7nm APU. Or offer more power at the same price. Don't be fooled into thinking that more power = higher cost. The 1.3 TF Xbox One APU cost 10 % more than the 1.84 TF PS4 APU. By planning for a 2020 launch vs. a 2019 launch Microsoft could have achieved that, a 12 TF console for 399. With a 500 GB SSD of course. And 16 GB RAM.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
I cannot believe that this thing will go for under 549, less so 499.
If they do that, they will be hemorrhaging money just to deliver a kill blow to Sony that might not even work out.
If they do that, they will be hemorrhaging money just to deliver a kill blow to Sony that might not even work out.
Hendrick's
If only my penis was as big as my GamerScore!
They have money to throw at it though. Would be nothing for them. Corporations with deep pockets do this sort of thing all the time. If they are making a push for Game Pass and xCloud, it would make perfect sense. Expect $499.
Drell
Member
Us westerners only know Sony for their Multimedia devices. But their actual most profitable branch is actually healthcare in japan.
mrBarrelNut
Member
Yeah. XSX APU die size is like ~405mm2 already, which is huge by console standards. It would be hard to imagine Sony going for a bigger chip... I mean XSX APU is already as big as possible for a console.
true, same with Disney. Just look at the pricing for Disney+. Its like they are giving it away for free.
Dural
Member
Pretty much, unless they went with a discrete CPU/GPU design.
Iced Arcade
Member
going to be pricey which almost confirms a lower model "Series S"
Fatal Enigma
Member
electric car division might displace tesla? /s
FloatingIslands
Member
The Flops performance measuring method is unreliable. It's only possible to compare two devices if they have the same instruction set architecture.
Different architectures handle operations (like floating point operations) differently.
Some have more parallel units, some have a better pipeline than others, some do the same operations at half the cycles, etc.
So no, they aren't the same.
If you don't believe me, read Computer Organization and Design (5th edition) by John Hennessy and David Patterson.
It's presented as a pitfall and fallacy with an excercise in the first chapter.
You should first research before calling others idiots
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Yeah I really don't know where the $550/$600 speculation is coming from. Some folks using MSRP pricing of equivalent PC components, maybe?
Which is never a good metric to go by; manufacturers have to get high profit margins on those products anyway because they don't have a software and services ecosystem to offset a lower pricing.
deccangamer
Banned
150 million consoles, AMD will make a profit even if it sells those gpu components at half the current price.
Series X = 500$
PS5 = 400$ (maybe)
Lockhardt = 300$
Series X = 500$
PS5 = 400$ (maybe)
Lockhardt = 300$
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Everybody agrees that both consoles will be a match in RAM, right? So that cost is irrelevant. The PS5 controller will probably be a bit more expensive than the XSX controller. Haptic feedback and all that are going to drive cost.
+$5 Sony
Then there's cooling. Microsoft designed a console that makes use of the chimney effect (hot air goes up) to transport heat from the APU away. They only need a large and silent fan at the top to support the natural airflow. Sony is rumored to have an expensive cooling solution.
+$10 Sony
Without doubt the simple 15x15x30 cm rectangular design of XSX costs less for plastic than whatever fancy design PS5 will have.
+$12 Sony
Both use an UHD drive, so that is irrelevant. Same for the ports, they will use HDMI, several USB ports. Unless Sony goes with USB-C for PS5, cost would be the same, with USB-C they would spend around $5 more on the console.
+$12 Sony
Sony uses a custom SSD that is supposedly very fast. Microsoft uses a DRAM less SSD that isn't as fast, but it is cheaper. The cost difference in OEM pricing is around 7.50 for 500 GB.
+$19.50 Sony
The power supply depends entirely on the power consumption. Microsoft is on a 7nm+ node, so they consume 15 % less energy than a 7nm chip of the same size. In reality, that evens out the die size, so a 355 mm^2 PS5 would consume as much power as a 400 mm^2 XSX APU if they are clocked at the same speeds. Power supply will be a bit more expensive for Xbox based on a higher number of CUs, but lower because of lower clock speeds. It's a match between them.
+$19.50 Sony
That basically leaves the APU. The cost of an APU is directly linked to its size. A bigger APU costs more. With an expected increase because of 7nm compared to 16nm while 7nm+ has comparable cost and yields, you are looking at 50 % more than the APU in a One X based on a comparable size. That's around $165 for XSX. The PS5 will based on AMD leak and Pro size end up at $150.
+4.50 Sony
So at the end of the day, it is absolutely possible that not only is Microsoft targeting 399 (of course with a substantial $75 loss) just as Sony - but that PS5 actually costs more to produce. We had the same situation with PS4 and Xbox One, where Xbox One was both weaker and more expensive in terms of BOM. It's looking a lot like that continues.
If Sony has a 12 TF APU on the other hand, the only cost differences will be the ones before, so in that case PS5 would cost around $20 more to produce and would very likely be more expensive despite being just as powerful. Microsoft made some very smart decisions with the SSD and the overall console design that will translate into huge savings. Panos Panay beats Mark Cerny.
The architectures are not the same. The real performance can be different.
Yet the flops are still the same and measure the max theoretical performance.
FloatingIslands
Member
The Flops are not the same. You can't compare different architectures with flops.
You can compare within the same architecture with flops, but it's meaningless when you compare it with another architecture.
Flops measure the max theoretical floating-point performance within that architecture, not the overall performance and not among architectures.
Read the book, that chapter it's not too long.
01011001
Banned
I see some tech guys having aneurysms reading this lol
wow. I think one of the best posts in this thread.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
Really? LOL the XSX will not be $399
Andodalf
Banned
There's just too much to assume, It's hard to make declarative statements like that the costs will be similar when so much about the products are still unknown
FLOPS as a measure were used left and right in supercomputers which all have vastly different architectures.
Essentially each one is a different architecture.
If you want to quote the book. Just do it here.
Flops is a measure of performance that specific computing architecture cannot exceed. That's about it.
KlickKlack
Banned
he think you need a master degree to login into this forum.... and he has managed it
VectorVictor
Member
I'd say it's more akin to the situation with the PS3 and the XBox 360. The PS3 Phat cost something like $600 in the 20GB variant at launch, compared to the 360 at $399 with 20 GB hard drive.
Of course, you had multiple missteps by Sony which cost them that generation, including (but not limited to):
- Cramming PS2 chipsets in the original Phat consoles to facilitate Backwards Compatibility
- Blu-Ray, which wasn't strongly adopted in the marketplace yet (and therefore the drives were expensive)
- Going with the cell architecture, which wasn't beneficial in cost reductions in the long run
Shin
Banned
$499 most likely, but $599 isn't out of the question I think, this machine is designed for and with the hardcore gamer in mind.
Microsoft knows how well (or bad X sold), they had no issues taking a risk with that and they are doing it again, so it probably sold well.
The audience this is likely targeting doesn't really care much about $50-100 difference or the price altogether at that and most likely why Lockhart exists.
Without the memory setup and SSD capacity it's hard to say and whether it's assisted by an HDD and it's capacity, $599 wouldn't surprise me though in all fairness.
I look forward to "dead on arrival" posts
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S0ULZB0URNE
Member
It's easily worth $599 but I think they need to be aggressive and match Sony or be $50 more.$499 most likely, but $599 isn't out of the question I think, this machine is designed for and with the hardcore gamer in mind.
Microsoft knows how well (or bad X sold), they had no issues taking a risk with that and they are doing it again, so it probably sold well.
The audience this is likely targeting doesn't really care much about $50-100 difference or the price altogether at that and most likely why Lockhart exists.
Without the memory setup and SSD capacity it's hard to say and whether it's assisted by an HDD and it's capacity, $599 wouldn't surprise me though in all fairness.
I look forward to "dead on arrival" posts
phil_t98
#SonyToo
It seems flops only matter if your winning, when your loosing it done at matter. Same when resolution was important till another console got higher resoloution then it didn’t matter
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
It seems flops only matter if your winning, when your loosing it done at matter. Same when resolution was important till another console got higher resoloution then it didn’t matter
I've never said that flops matter. Actually.
Just corrected the misconceptions.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Right.... change the person out who has been righting the ship and doing everything just about pitch perfect in the lead up to Series X.
Joey.
Member
Really cool that Microsoft is still doing their presentation for GDC 2020 as a digital event instead. Is Sony doing the same thing?
GDC and the wellbeing of our teams & community
Today, we’ve made a difficult decision to withdraw from participating at Game Developers Conference
developer.microsoft.com