Support NeoGAF

[LordOfChaos]

It has a speed advantage on ssd however in terms of real world application this isnt likely to make any difference at all.

In terms of real world advantages on a PC where games are still made to assume incredibly slow IO mechanical storage, there's not much of a difference at all.

Let's just see what they have to show about this, like what would it do for game design and RAM allocation if, by the time you turned around, you could load in a whole new working set? That's the goal they went with, and if it turns out to be a big nothingburger in a few years I'll be right there saying it was all a waste of time, BoM, and effort, but let's just see first, all these assumptions so far are based on unknowables.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

PS5 has the storage advantage with their faster SSD but like I said before, Microsoft has its Xbox Velocity Architecture that they have not really talked about yet and it mught be just as good or better than the PS5. As for ram Xbox Series X ram is much faster than whats in the PS5.

Overall the total bandwidth of both systems is about the same but Microsoft merely prioritized their pool with a hierarchy so bandwidth could more smartly be applied where it's actually needed and not where it isn't.

 

[Hosam6xavi]

Microsoft and Phil Spenser have showed confident about the XSX from the beginning unlike Sony and now we know why

Microsoft absolutely killed it with specs - reveal - massaging ( built for The player etc. ) they even invited DF to see the system and play with it

And what we have from Sony ? Wired article and picture of the logo in Instagram and SSD lesson from Cerny who didn't show any game or even the console

After all this Jason and Sony 1st party developers is doing this stupid damage control PR and we must believe them

it's getting sad

 

[Deeper Underground]

Yes and later it rurned into 3 devs, from ND and them that made that The Order 1880. The tweets were posted on here so either the tweets were made up or he's deleted them.

loL I guess you missed the break down later that showed multiple devs saying the same thing and only a few of them were actual ND devs. Try again.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Yes and later it rurned into 3 devs, from ND and them that made that The Order 1880. The tweets were posted on here so either the tweets were made up or he's deleted them.

Except the Naughty Dog tweets are completely unrelated to Jason's tweets and Jason said he's heard it from multiple 3rd party devs

 

[lynux3]

You dont think sony was aware that the xsx was 12tflops? Sony have even said themselves that they are watching and reacting to what Microsoft are doing.
So even though cerny did not compare the ps5 gpu to the xsx's gpu, sony would of known the comparisons would be made.
Why didnt cerny mention that raw tflops dont tell the whole story when he has spoken about the ps4? Has he and sony only just realised this or something?

Its Also puzzleing why he didn't demonstrate the kind of performance increase a 36cu @ 1ghz vs a 48cu @ 750mhz would have, he said its "noticeable", ok then show us or tell us what these performance increases are. I would be surprised if it more then 10% .
So a 36cu @ 1ghz would behave more like a 5tflop gpu.

So I think the ps5 gpu will perform better then a rdna2 lower clocked 10tf card on pc, but i would be surprised if its more then 10%. However the xsx also benifits from high clocks, 1825mhz is still very fast,the xsxs extra ram bandwidth will also make a significant performance increase.

I don't think Sony cares. PlayStation 5's design and specifications were decided long ago; these are the results. The only thing Sony cares about right now is ensuring they can release this product by the end of the year, price competitively, properly reveal it to the general public and show off their software.

What's puzzling is why you think he should have done that when it has no bearing on the system him and his team created. What a worthless demonstration. He explained his design philosophy (once again) very clearly.

The reality is the PS5 is going to perform just fine, beyond anyone's expectations. Let the talented developers' software speak for the system; especially those within the PlayStation Worldwide Studios group. The software is going to be infinitely more exciting and competitive than a spec sheet.

 

[MaulerX]

It's just astounding how they're legit trying to frame a less powerful console as the more powerful console. "Un-named industry sources" putting in the damage control work for Sony. Either that or whatever they were told from Sony behind the scenes is not actually what is being delivered. Just weird.


Look, both consoles have custom work put it them. Sony has the advantage of the faster SSD though and it's OK to be exited for that. But Sony's custom work won't magically eliminate the fact that they have an inferior CPU, inferior GPU and inferior overall RAM bandwidth. Ray-Tracing probably inferior as well as it's tied to Compute Units (52 vs 36).

MS just went all out and you just have to tip your cap.

 

[DynamiteCop!]

loL I guess you missed the break down later that showed multiple devs saying the same thing and only a few of them were actual ND devs. Try again.

Dude we've all seen the tweets, you're not fooling anyone.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Dude you dont start out making a console with 2.25ghz gpu clock speeds in mind, you just dont unless you are mad. Those speeds are ridiculous even by PC standards with exotic cooling and massive cases.
The reason i never believed the GitHub leaks was because it said PS5 was 2.0ghz, even that number is silly for a console.

Some people can be mad or they may believe it has merits... look at the old Pentium 4 with double pumped integer pipelines running at 6-8 GHz back forever ago. Speed demons vs Braniac are two easily high level views of that concept.

From his remarks he seems genuinely interested in the benefits a higher clocked design has for both performance of all the fabric outside of the CU’s as well as the ease of development and performance maximisation potential: as a developer of any system, barring other bottlenecks, you would always choose a scalar design running at double the frequency than 2 units running in parallel at half the former’s clock speed (easier to maximise usage of less CU’s at higher frequency and better performance in branchy [divergence can use up a lot of performance on GPU’s, better than Pentium 4’s pipeline flushes and stalls on mispredicts though] and general purpose code).

 

[Stuart360]

Except the Naughty Dog tweets are completely unrelated to Jason's tweets and Jason said he's heard it from multiple 3rd party devs

lol because devs are not gamers too right, they can not be fanboys too i guess. This is going to be a long 6 or 7 months, but the outcome will be Biblical.

 

[Thaedolus]

Why is PlayStation The Simpsons?

 

[CatLady]

Aka... just your speculation for the most part (the only basis I can see is MS strong, Sony scared or something to that effect and pretending they rushed out a shitty solution instead of shooting for high clocks and fixed power consumption early on which is more likely).

I do not believe they pulled off this design at the last minute, but built it in as a target several years ago.

The highest clock in the GitHub steppings from last year were 2.0. I'm guessing they went for the 2.23 boost mode after the XsX reveal at theTGAs. So yeah, they rushed to do the only thing they could to be at least a little more competitive with the Xbox.

 

[lynux3]

Dude you dont start out making a console with 2.25ghz gpu clock speeds in mind, you just dont unless you are mad. Those speeds are ridiculous even by PC standards with exotic cooling and massive cases.
The reason i never believed the GitHub leaks was because it said PS5 was 2.0ghz, even that number is silly for a console.

Welcome to next generation RDNA 2.0 where AMD themselves are touting multi Ghz GPUs in their PC lineup. This was most definitely decided long ago and apart of both Sony and AMD's roadmap. You don't just shit out a GPU into multi Ghz territory just because. The architecture has to be designed around this and it takes years.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The highest clock in the GitHub steppings from last year were 2.0. I'm guessing they went for the 2.23 boost mode after the XsX reveal at theTGAs. So yeah, they rushed to do the only thing they could to be at least a little more competitive with the Xbox.

So their 2019 design was pushing with early silicon 2.0 GHz and you do not believe they designed the system and cooling for very high clocks from day 1 and rushed it all because they got scared?!?

 

[Deeper Underground]

It's just astounding how they're legit trying to frame a less powerful console as the more powerful console. "Un-named industry sources" putting in the damage control work for Sony. Either that or whatever they were told from Sony behind the scenes is not actually what is being delivered. Just weird.


Look, both consoles have custom work put it them. Sony has the advantage of the faster SSD though and it's OK to be exited for that. But Sony's custom work won't magically eliminate the fact that they have an inferior CPU, inferior GPU and inferior overall RAM bandwidth. Ray-Tracing probably inferior as well as it's tied to Compute Units (52 vs 36).

MS just went all out and you just have to tip your cap.

And this is why people are laughing at the Xbox fans right now. If the XSX is so great and so powerful and has the power to cure Coronavirus and cancer, why are all of you running around like chickens with their heads cut off telling anyone who will listen that Evil Sony is misleading you and lying?

 

[lynux3]

Aka... just your speculation for the most part (the only basis I can see is MS strong, Sony scared or something to that effect and pretending they rushed out a shitty solution instead of shooting for high clocks and fixed power consumption early on which is more likely).

I do not believe they pulled off this design at the last minute, but built it in as a target several years ago.

Don't waste your time. He thinks an SSD capable of 5.5GB/s (9.0GB/s compressed) won't have any appreciable difference over 2.4GB/s. (4.8GB/s compressed).

 

[Hobbygaming]

lol because devs are not gamers too right, they can not be fanboys too i guess. This is going to be a long 6 or 7 months, but the outcome will be Biblical.

It's going to be even longer for those thinking the PS5 won't be a powerful console with some of the best exclusives

 

[Stuart360]

It's going to be even longer for those thinking the PS5 won't be a powerful console with some of the best exclusives

I have actually said that numerous times over the last few days, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[hyperbertha]

This is the same guy who tweeted that multiple devs told him the PS5 is the most exciting hardware in 20 years or some bullshit.

From a dev point of view, it is. For gamers, we need to wait until results come out to see how it plays out.

 

[ZywyPL]

Turbo boost!

 

[Foamy]

Don't waste your time. He thinks an SSD capable of 5.5GB/s (9.0GB/s compressed) won't have any appreciable difference over 2.4GB/s. (4.8GB/s compressed).

I'd prefer the console wiith better overall graphics, a bit of load time and it not bursting into flames.

 

[MaulerX]

And this is why people are laughing at the Xbox fans right now. If the XSX is so great and so powerful and has the power to cure Coronavirus and cancer, why are all of you running around like chickens with their heads cut off telling anyone who will listen that Evil Sony is misleading you and lying?

It cures Cancer an Corona Virus? Sony is evil and misleading us?

Is that what you extrapolated from what I said? This is 2013 all over again. But in complete reverse.

Where are the demos? So far from MS we've seen Hellblade 2, Project Mara. Real Time path traced Ray-Tracing. Sony didn't show a thing. I know it will come but you gotta admit that was odd.

 

[Panajev2001a]

GDC Survey 2020...

What were you saying again?

 

[Handy Fake]

GDC Survey 2020...

What were you saying again?

You pleasant genius, you.

 

[Adam_802]

lol Schrier is a tool whos been trying to damage control for sony since the Series X's specs were revealed to be superior. He's been so salty this entire time.

 

[Reindeer]

Pro Sony devs are scared of Series X should be the title of this thread .

 

[lynux3]

I'd prefer the console wiith better overall graphics, a bit of load time and it not bursting into flames.

That's great. I'll take the one with exclusives, better first party studios, and doesn't dry up two years before the generation ends. I think you can guess which one that is.

 

[HawarMiran]

GDC Survey 2020...

What were you saying again?

Alllll bought shilllssss!!!! Can't you Sony Ponies see that?

 

[Alex88]

Jason Schreier threw this place under the bus in the days leading up to Resetera. He's an unprofessional piece of garbage, a cuck and I feel absolutely no sympathy for him or for people like you who feel offended by this for whatever moronic reason. For the rest of us sane people who know how corrupt the games press is and how much Schreier symbolizes that, this is celebration time.

Once again. Jason Schrier is the most respectgames journalist in the industry. An actual investigative journalist rather than a PR mouthpiece.

His sentiments around PS5 have been backed up by many respected developers and tech outlets like Digital Foundry and NX Gamer.

I understand the confusion. There’s been an information void for the past 12 months. That was filled by YouTube fanboys who drummed into viewers TF’s where the only metric that mattered.

Today there are no excuses for the ignorance on display. It really is quite embarrassing to see people making sarcastic remarks about ‘secret sauce’. When they themselves are the ones who don’t understand hardware or game development.

 

[ShadowWolf712]

Alllll bought shilllssss!!!! Can't you Sony Ponies see that?

Clearly they were under the impression that their 10 Tflop devkit was actually 15 and didn't realize it was constantly catching fire.

 

[Patrick S.]

I have a probably super ignorant question regarding console design.

As I see it, today, there isn't exotic stuff like cell processor and emotion engine and whatnot.

Basically, they are taking AMD parts and slap them on a custom motherboard, put on a custom cooler and an SSD, and call it a console.

To me, that kinda sounds like building a PC, buying parts while adhering to a budget and putting them into a box, and I'm honestly wondering where the super visionary genius merit is in that.

 

[ShadowWolf712]

Once again. Jason Schrier is the most respectgames journalist in the industry. An actual investigative journalist rather than a PR mouthpiece.

His sentiments around PS5 have been backed up by many respected developers and tech outlets like Digital Foundry and NX Gamer.

I understand the confusion. There’s been an information void for the past 12 months. That was filled by YouTube fanboys who drummed into viewers TF’s where the only metric that mattered.

Today there are no excuses for the ignorance on display.

I don't like Schreier for a lot of reasons, I think he's oversensitive and opportunistic at times, but if there's one thing he's not, it's a bad journalist, and if there's one thing he doesn't do, it's share info he doesn't trust or hear often from reliable, verified sources.

Dude might be a bit of a weenie, but he's a very accurate and astute weenie. People can't dismiss him out of hand just because he said something they didn't like.

 

[Handy Fake]

Clearly they were under the impression that their 10 Tflop devkit was actually 15 and didn't realize it was constantly catching fire.

The fire is a feature for when the fuel runs out during the pandemic.

 

[M1chl]

Shill me to the moon, Jason.

 

[Alex88]

I'd prefer the console wiith better overall graphics, a bit of load time and it not bursting into flames.

A faster SSD and throughput will enable PS5 to display ultra high resolution textures, with greater variety, more assets, and game worlds with greater scope. Of course this will need developers to design specifically for the capabilities of PS5.

XSX’s strengths will enable them to deliver a (theoretical) 15% higher resolution and possibly more comprehensive RT usage.

In the case of 3rd party titles the biggest hold-up will remain cross -gen support. With their archaic Jaguar CPU’s & slow HDD’s.

 

[LordKasual]

I have a probably super ignorant question regarding console design.

As I see it, today, there isn't exotic stuff like cell processor and emotion engine and whatnot.

Basically, they are taking AMD parts and slap them on a custom motherboard, put on a custom cooler and an SSD, and call it a console.

To me, that kinda sounds like building a PC, buying parts while adhering to a budget and putting them into a box, and I'm honestly wondering where the super visionary genius merit is in that.

this is literally every console in existence.

lol Schrier is a tool whos been trying to damage control for sony since the Series X's specs were revealed to be superior. He's been so salty this entire time.

LOL what the fuck?

 

[ShadowWolf712]

I have a probably super ignorant question regarding console design.

As I see it, today, there isn't exotic stuff like cell processor and emotion engine and whatnot.

Basically, they are taking AMD parts and slap them on a custom motherboard, put on a custom cooler and an SSD, and call it a console.

To me, that kinda sounds like building a PC, buying parts while adhering to a budget and putting them into a box, and I'm honestly wondering where the super visionary genius merit is in that.

Oh no, the CPU and GPU themselves are both VERY customized in both systems, as is the IO throughput, as is Sony's SSD. These things run custom right down to the way they're put together, they just split the cost with AMD, who sees it as a way to show the versatility and strength of their new architecture.

 

[Patrick S.]

Oh no, the CPU and GPU themselves are both VERY customized in both systems, as is the IO throughput, as is Sony's SSD. These things run custom right down to the way they're put together, they just split the cost with AMD, who sees it as a way to show the versatility and strength of their new architecture.

I see, thanks

 

[ShadowWolf712]

A faster SSD and throughput will enable PS5 to display ultra high resolution textures, with greater variety, more assets, and game worlds with greater scope. Of course this will need developers to design specifically for the capabilities of PS5.

XSX’s strengths will enable them to deliver a (theoretical) 15% higher resolution and possibly more comprehensive RT usage.

In the case of 3rd party titles the biggest hold-up will remain cross -gen support. With their archaic Jaguar CPU’s & slow HDD’s.

Man, it's been a bit since we had two consoles actually taking very different approaches. Kinda cool, ngl.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Sprankle that secret sawce all over my loinz.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

So their 2019 design was pushing with early silicon 2.0 GHz and you do not believe they designed the system and cooling for very high clocks from day 1 and rushed it all because they got scared?!?

Remember all the people who said that chip had no relation to PS5 whatsoever and they were testing at high clocks to simulate performance targets on a larger chip at lower clocks? Yeah, I still remember that as well. It wasn't even that long ago, either xS

There's no reason to rule out the idea the upclock to 2.23 GHz may've been out of reaction. Keep in mind the older Oberon revisions date back to June 2019. Between then and now was plenty of time to tighten up the power delivery and cooling system especially if they were knowing of XSX performance specs by that time, which is also very likely.

Man, it's been a bit since we had two consoles actually taking very different approaches. Kinda cool, ngl.

Yep, it's very very exciting. This gen won't be boring at all in terms of technological implementations and usage. We aughta enjoy it too since this might be the last gen before game consoles become standardized like set-top boxes xD.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Man, it's been a bit since we had two consoles actually taking very different approaches. Kinda cool, ngl.

I agree and disagree. Part me wanted them to be as similar as possible to avoid porting issues/ensure multi-play parity

But it will be cool to see when devs go the extra mile to use all the power each console offers

 

[TBiddy]

Remember Schreier said the PS5 was over 10.7 TF. His credibility has taken a hit.

But it’s the same old story. Any rumour that fits your agenda must be true.

 

[darkinstinct]

Can we not make this about Schreier, please? He is a (the) most respected investigative journalist in gaming. He just reports what he hears. He's not a shill. Sometimes you like what he says (like when he said that TF number will disappoint PS console warriors), sometimes you don't. Same as with Digital Foundry. That flipping and flopping is embarassing, they are both respected entities and don't have to do paid work - and if they do, they tell you.

Now why would a third party dev try to talk up PS5? Typically, they don't care. A multiplatform game is just that, a game on all platforms. The devs have no stake in either platform, all they care about are overall sales across platforms. So if a third party dev tries to promote PS5 as being better than it looks like (and really, all that talk about "exciting" and "superior" can just be the haptic controller) that means they do have a stake in it, because they are working on an exclusive title. And that's where their opinions evaporate. It's just like with the Gearbox guy, Pitchford. They are scared that they backed the wrong horse and they go into attack mode to get rid of their feelings of remorse. XSX is the better gaming machine and it will show in every single game. That's just how it is. No SSD can make that go away, no special hardware can do that - because at the end of the day if you need special hardware to do a job, why don't you just build a console that does the job without special hardware (like the XSX)? Because all that talk about special hardware and secret sauce is just marketing BS for the one that's losing. The one that screwed up. If you want to build a powerhouse you get the basics right AND add special hardware on top.

Remember Schreier said the PS5 was over 10.7 TF. His credibility has taken a hit.

But it’s the same old story. Any rumour that fits your agenda must be true.

Schreier made it clear from the start that he had no insider knowledge and was just guessing that both would try to beat Stadia based on what he heard on the internet (basically the same BS inside scoops we all know). He never claimed to know, that's just what people pretended.

 

[kingbean]

I can't wait to hear what Seanbaby has to say about it. He's the only gaming personality whose opinion really matters.

 

[lynux3]

Remember Schreier said the PS5 was over 10.7 TF. His credibility has taken a hit.

But it’s the same old story. Any rumour that fits your agenda must be true.

Pretty sure he said "aiming" and technically he was right. With the efficiency gains from RDNA 2.0 it is well over 10.7 if we convert to GCN TFlops.

 

[ryan299]

Pretty sure Schreier said both consoles were over Stadia‘s 10.7tf also. We know how that turned out.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I agree and disagree. Part me wanted them to be as similar as possible to avoid porting issues/ensure multi-play parity

But it will be cool to see when devs go the extra mile to use all the power each console offers

The good news on that front is that the main sizable advantages unique to each system are so divergent that vast majority of 3rd-parties will just take the "free" benefits of them and call it day.

So unless it's a game with a piss-poor engine or godawful optimization, if it's not some platform exclusive it aught to run very similarly on both systems.

Remember Schreier said the PS5 was over 10.7 TF. His credibility has taken a hit.

But it’s the same old story. Any rumour that fits your agenda must be true.

TBF to Scheir, he was referecing 10.7 GCN Stadia, which PS5 does smoke in terms of performance, even if the literal number is lower. 10.275 TF RDNA2 on improved (let's say 10% better IPC?) 7nm node should be about 13.87 GCN...

..or about exactly what that ITMedia 5-page article referenced when mentioning PS5 comparable to a 13.8 Radeon VII. Said the ENTIRE time that was an architectural comparison. NGL feels good to be right about that xD.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Remember Schreier said the PS5 was over 10.7 TF. His credibility has taken a hit.

But it’s the same old story. Any rumour that fits your agenda must be true.

This was addressed earlier. Jason only said that both were aiming to go above Stadia's 10.7 Tflops he never confirmed it to be the case

 

[TBiddy]

This was addressed earlier. Jason only said that both were aiming to go above Stadia's 10.7 Tflops he never confirmed it to be the case

In other words - he was guessing. Don’t take his word as gospel.