HonkingTonk
Neo Member
Because its a tired series that has wore out its welcome and should have been cancled years ago?
(Joke post, I would make the same remark if it were Microsoft, no offense intended towards Sony fans.)
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Jason Schreier's industry sources: PS5 is superior in ways that Sony has not communicated yet
- Thread starter LordOfChaos
- Start date
(Joke post, I would make the same remark if it were Microsoft, no offense intended towards Sony fans.)
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
They knew gamers were thirsty for PS5 news, so they advertised the conference on Twitter, a popular social media platform. That's called building up hype, there's no other way to spin it.
Cerny's presentation touched as lightly on any negatives regarding their approach as possible, and focused on positive aspects of it. Smart, but can be seen as hyping it up. The gamers who aren't developers or techheads (who comprised the vast majority watching the stream) basically went into viewing it as hype because they had already been at least partially aware of next-gen news and rumors by that point. So in a sense the presentation - for them - played off of hype that Sony somewhat helped feed by advertising the event to them on Twitter.
I never said people aren't genuinely excited about PS5. Hell, I'm genuinely excited for PS5 and interested in seeing how its advantages will be flexed. But I am noticing a lopsided trend among a lot of gaming press post-Wednesday that are attempting to paint its advantages in SSD memory controller speed as significantly closing the gap on differentials in TF, GPU complexity/size, or other areas XSX seems to have the notable advantage in on paper (and very likely in practice too, same with PS5's SSD).
It gets almost comical when these people are positioning the SSDs in either system as "game changers" that will revolutionize the way games are made, because anyone who understands the inherent limitations of NAND technology and how flash memory controllers work, even as a memory-mapped v-cache, knows that there's embellishment going on there. Meanwhile none of these same types are discussing the extra GPGPU throughput the XSX has, or seem to even understand how GPGPU works and can work, despite many PS4 exclusively leveraging it this very past generation.
Out of the two, GPGPU is easily the more significant of the two "game changer" design-enabling technologies (well, more like methodology for GPGPU, but it's strengthened by technologies such as unified memory pools, something both system have) for next-gen, but if and how 3rd-parties can easily utilize it is another matter. Meanwhile, Sony's seemingly made their SSD setup as transparent and automatic to developers as possible and it's relatively "newer" in the console space than GPGPU, so those are probably two factors adding to its mystique.
That all said, the way some of these gaming outlets are framing the two systems is "well, this one is sleek, optimized and punches above its weight (PS5)", and "this one's brute-forcing its way to an advantage, kinda neanderthalish (XSX)", which is very inaccurate on both system's accounts. There's arguably at least as much optimization and customization into XSX as there is PS5, but Sony made it a point to message theirs directly to gamers and their areas of notable advantages offer more "free" performance gains (as in, requires very little actual effort or optimization by developers) to take advantage of.
Still though it should be the responsibility of gaming outlets to try framing the systems more correctly as to their true strengths and unique advantages, and I'd say this forum's done a better job at it than the majority of gaming outlets out there TBQH. Hopefully over time the outlets will even out their focus on system advantages and technologies, though that is partly up to Sony and MS to set the tone for such. And quite frankly, I think outlets are just refreshed to talk about next-gen in a way besides simply TFs, which I agree was getting tiresome because TFs never tell the full picture of system performance.
Really quick, to address the GDC post some are putting up, you do have to ask yourself what third-party developer without an exclusive dev/pub deal for a title on a given system, would even speak about either next-gen system in a way so as to show public preference for one over the other when neither has actually launched. Someone else brought this up in the thread and they're 100% correct on the matter. Never mind when it is a 1st-party developer doing so; everyone will know where their priorities are and that's completely fair of them.
But a 3rd party doing such, if they have no strong preferred branding deal or dev partnership with Sony or MS? It's almost like a kiss of death by them and could have repercussions in support by the competing platform holder as a result. No smart studio is going to risk being that brazen even to someone like Jason Schreir unless they have something going on with one platform holder in particular, which probably rules out any of the big AAA 3rd-party devs or publishers.
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TBiddy
Member
Burrito Bandito
Banned
yea ok. please stop trying to cover so hard for Sony. Everyone sounds like misterxmedia.
IF this was true, Cerny would have mentioned then. this is beyond rediculous. Cerny went through every single aspect of the hardware so the only thing even left to discuss is software.
IF this was true, Cerny would have mentioned then. this is beyond rediculous. Cerny went through every single aspect of the hardware so the only thing even left to discuss is software.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
The dude has had numerous breaking stories and scoops
Now whether or not what hes saying is true time will tell, but hes not the only one saying this kind of crap in the background... There is alot of praise for BOTH machines
Relax Playstation fanboys, there's likely a good deal that we have not heard yet, so chances are there's far more to this system than we already know...
Relax Xbox fanboys, your system is still the strongest when it comes to strength in the GPU CPU you will have the best possible performance so celebrate yea
I mostly agree with your post, and I appreciate your viewpoint.
As per the bolded:
I think the skepticism manifests from the appearance of mostly/only first party devs praising either system, while any third party studios that have chimed in so far (CDPR for example) seem pretty focused on XsX
But, regardless, you’re right. there’s a lot more goodness coming from both sides and a lot for everyone to look forward to
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Don't read too much into anything, especially the hype surrounding either of these consoles. At the end of the day the capabilities of both systems are going to be completely transparent to the end user when the games start showing up. While you're going to hear about so and so game takes advantage of this and that to make that correlation the reality is you should just forget about it and enjoy the content. Put all the drama aside, especially the sources that enable console warring (Sorry Digital Foundry
). Buy the system you want/love/prefer/biased for, buy your games on it and if the other console has something that interests you dive into that ecosystem.It's exhausting worrying about what is trending more and what isn't based on personal preference or for reasons that differ from one individual to another. All of this bickering about teraflops, SSDs, RAM, etc. is going to go to the shitter when both of these companies start showing the bangers (games). You should focus on that!
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Don't read too much into anything, especially the hype surrounding either of these consoles. At the end of the day the capabilities of both systems are going to be completely transparent to the end user when the games start showing up. While you're going to hear about so and so game takes advantage of this and that to make that correlation the reality is you should just forget about it and enjoy the content. Put all the drama aside, especially the sources that enable console warring (Sorry Digital Foundry
It's exhausting worrying about what is trending more and what isn't based on personal preference or for reasons that differ from one individual to another. All of this bickering about teraflops, SSDs, RAM, etc. is going to go to the shitter when both of these companies start showing the bangers (games). You should focus on that!
Oh I agree with all of that (tho I wouldn't say DF are trying to start console wars xD). But, I'm also looking at the consoles from a technological POV as I've always been very interested in console tech for a long time now. I've spent probably dozens of hours researching and looking at tech analysis on consoles ranging from PS3 and 360, to PS2, GC, Dreamcast, Saturn, PS1, N64, SNES, MegaDrive, 3DO, Jaguar etc.
Since we don't have any actual games for the systems yet that are complete and out there to play, we can just speculate on the possibilities of what their approaches can bring. And when the games do start to come out, we will inevitably see games (mainly 1st-party) that take advantage of those technologies in ways multiplats can't or won't justify. We've seen that happen in every generation prior and it'll play out roughly the same once again.
That's partly why it's fun for me to discuss the systems from technological POV, because it helps frame what ways 1st-party and maybe certain 3rd-party games can potentially take advantage of their abilities. But yes, at the end of the day it's ALWAYS about the games and a game doesn't need to be the most technologically bombastic marvel to be fun
Who said anything about Sony not caring about marketing? If this was a marketing stunt then I'll be damned... it worked wonders. I'll be interested to see what Sony's real marketing team does when they actually reveal the whole thing with consumer focused content.
Look dude, Sony announced their GDC presentation and delivered it as promised. Your highly subjective view on whether Mark Cerny's presentation was messed up is completely irrelevant, and your ignorant view as to how Sony delivers their documentation, lectures or training to studios is laughable.
Here's your problem. You think you're entitled to information that doesn't concern you or shouldn't at least. I understand your ammo box has been pretty empty for awhile, but Cerny doesn't owe you anything and he sure as hell doesn't care about fanboy bickering on NeoGAF.com. If there's an issue with either of these consoles (and there will be) developers will find a way; they are smart, talented and they make the games we cherish.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I think Series X has been created from more standard, 'off the shelf' RDNA2 parts whereas PS5 is more customized and exotic RDNA2-based design.
I think because MS went with such a large, 52CU GPU, they've had to save on budget and physical space on the die to add more advanced/custom units like PS5's Geometry Engine, Cache Scrubbers and Tempest Audio.
I think because MS went with such a large, 52CU GPU, they've had to save on budget and physical space on the die to add more advanced/custom units like PS5's Geometry Engine, Cache Scrubbers and Tempest Audio.
Silent Viper
Banned
Will Jason stop posting reactions of Sony 1st and 2nd party studios? Lol We get it that all Sony studios real excited for SSD speed. It's a game changer and gpu/ cpu and memory dont matter.
Silent Viper
Banned
Series X gpu and cpu are all custom made. System architecture posted om Twitter that they have not shown lot of other features of XSX.
PS5 wont out perform XSX . XSX will always be ahead overall.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Remember this line:
"Tflops are defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. This is just one part of the GPU and there are a lot of other units." It's a single measurement of performance in a specific contest.
It seems PS5's more elegant and custom design is faster in other units of measurement which will transpire sooner than later.
"Tflops are defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU. This is just one part of the GPU and there are a lot of other units." It's a single measurement of performance in a specific contest.
It seems PS5's more elegant and custom design is faster in other units of measurement which will transpire sooner than later.
MiyazakiHatesKojima
Banned
Don't forget that their CUs are larger than average too
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
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Coulomb_Barrier
Member
I think PS5 will outperform XsX in performance, yes. More and more devs are saying the same thing. I think the type of people saying it know what they are talking about compared to nameless and frustrated Xbox fanboys!
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
sony added the equivalent to like 10+ ryzen cores of custom i/o h/w to remove all bottlenecks that keep ssds from achieving their true potential. So rather than being 3-4x faster than an hdd, and pcie nvme drives in pc being not much faster than sata ssds, the ps5 ssd can be 100x faster than an hdd in practice.
They're talking about it being so fast you can stream the textures from a room you'll see when turning around. This effectively makes it as if the available ram for a scene was 20-24+GB.
Yes but you also target price. Some of the numbers flying around in gaf put the ps5 at 10B transistor and the series x at 15B transistor. Due to cost per transistor, if those numbers are true the series x apu could cost up to 50% more.
JareBear: Remastered
Banned
which devs?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I honestly wouldn't say either system's SSD is "very close" to RAM tbh. They're both NAND-based drives, and NAND stores, reads, writes and modifies data in ways very unlike RAM. Data transmitted over PCIe is packaged differently than data in RAM, and flash memory controllers function very differently than RAM memory controllers.
If these systems were using some type of DRAM-like persistent memory, then I'd say they would be very close to RAM in terms of practical functionality (just much higher latency and lower speed and bandwidth). As-is though, we're going to see some amazing uses for memory-mapped v-cache data streaming (especially in PS5, but it won't be a slouch on XSX either), but seeing it act "very close" to RAM? That's a massive stretch IMHO.
It doesn't actually function like RAM, though. NAND is built very differently from volatile memories, it's the main reason many are trying to develop breakthroughs with persistent memories like MRAM (Everspin), ReRAM, FRAM, NRAM etc. They want to replace NAND and NOR flash with those technologies, but they can't for a few years out. Of them, PCM and MRAM have the most real-world development and progress in commercial industries.
Also the 22 GB/s figure Cerny mentioned in the presentation is for "particularly well-compressed" data, and not all types of data can be compressed to that level while still maintaining accuracy in that data. The 20+24 GB scenario you are talking about is not to say the SSDs will act like 24 extra GB of RAM; you can fudge a number sort of like that by taking the sheer amount of memory-mappable NAND and dividing by the speed/bandwidth of the controller I guess, but that's disingenuous. Plus regardless, it won't have the levels of access, latency, or granularity of volatile/RAM technology, either.
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Nemesis Prime
Member
I agree, I'm actually more excited for MS first party output this gen. I only really care about Kojima production games, God of War series, and whatever from software exclusives they'll inevitably get (from Sony). With Xbox I feel I have a better opportunity at playing a wide variety of games I traditionally wouldn't want to spend money on with games pass. Very excited for Halo Infinite
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
it is not ram, but if it can load data into ram so fast you can load elements of a scene while turning around, you effectively have boosted the amount of data that can effectively be used. It's as if the data was already in local ram. You don't even have to have an entire room in ram as you would in ps4, just part of it.
HawarMiran
Banned
Some people here need psychological help 
. Paranoia is rampant here
. Paranoia is rampant here
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
Well there was one on Gaf for a start:
Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD
I will not give any numerical data, and I will explain the reason. As you will understand, it is not information I can give. Not even any developer with two front fingers will tell you, it would mean being fired automatically and facing possible legal consequences. If a developer gives you that...
PS5 'was ahead in performance'
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
If that data on the SSD needs modifications smaller than a page, and faster than the speed the memory controller can provide (which will depend on if the data is compressed or not; if it's compressed and it needs to be modified then it has to be decompressed first meaning it still has to go into main memory), then the main GDDR6 memory will still be used.
I'm just trying to state the limitations of the approach that Cerny didn't necessarily focus on in his speech. Regardless, whatever those are, even in the constraints of what remains PS5 should have the routinely better capabilities in that specific element (the SSD) for games. That much should hopefully be acceptable by people regardless which system they prefer.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
This is true
ABrokenToy
Member
It is NOWHERE near the speed of RAM. Come on now.
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
The man that said Naughty Dog does crunch is a paid shill?
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
Digital Foundry says the PS5's SSD is a game changer too 
sixamp
Member
How can the ps5 be the superior box when not accounting for the spec sheets?
We all know what's in both boxes, we all know the basic speeds,audio,sdds,ram and everything. So unless the actual ps5 case is solar powered and provides Corona virus protection you can't say it's superior in any way.
You can say it's dev tools might be better.
Yes the SSD is faster but you are not going to tell me that the SSD is going to make up for the "alleged short comings in the hardware". World's load faster, no pop in of textures ok great that's awesome. But if somehow the xbx is $50 more than a ps5 then the xbx is the better buy.
does anyone know the life expectancy of these ssds? Will they have read/write TBW like standard dad's?
People have been saying how the ps5 add is similar to ram or can be used in conjunction with the ram. Didn't MS say the same thing about the xbox ssd and ram just half the speed
We all know what's in both boxes, we all know the basic speeds,audio,sdds,ram and everything. So unless the actual ps5 case is solar powered and provides Corona virus protection you can't say it's superior in any way.
You can say it's dev tools might be better.
Yes the SSD is faster but you are not going to tell me that the SSD is going to make up for the "alleged short comings in the hardware". World's load faster, no pop in of textures ok great that's awesome. But if somehow the xbx is $50 more than a ps5 then the xbx is the better buy.
does anyone know the life expectancy of these ssds? Will they have read/write TBW like standard dad's?
People have been saying how the ps5 add is similar to ram or can be used in conjunction with the ram. Didn't MS say the same thing about the xbox ssd and ram just half the speed
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JareBear: Remastered
Banned
HawarMiran
Banned
That guy is the embodiment of a forum dweller who thinks he knows shit. We are blessed with many of thoseDigital Foundry says the PS5's SSD is a game changer too
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
The issue is if it's true that sony is 100x faster than an hdd, so fast you can stream large parts of the room you're in in realtime. The series x demos seen show it about 4x faster than an hdd.
yes in a way it isn't like ram, as you can't effectively modify it. But in current games most assets are static and don't need to be modified. IF there's a cabinet behind you or a painting in a room, that usually only needs to be read not modified.
Journey
Banned
Reindeer
Member
Hobbygaming
has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
I like how John put him in his place lolThat guy is the embodiment of a forum dweller who thinks he knows shit. We are blessed with many of those
captainraincoat
Banned
Wow he sure loves those clicks
Reindeer
Member
PS5 E x O t I c architecture disagrees with you
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Clintizzle
Lord of Edge.
Guys dont be silly. We also know there is another secret SSD in the PS5 that we dont know about.
Or Maybe another 3D audio chip. One for each ear!
#Revolutionary
#MostPowerFullConsoleIfYouIgnoreTheSpecs
Or Maybe another 3D audio chip. One for each ear!
#Revolutionary
#MostPowerFullConsoleIfYouIgnoreTheSpecs
HawarMiran
Banned
Subtle but still firm. True alpha
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GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
I honestly don't care about numbers. Whether the XBOX or the Playstation are 'more powerful' is of no importance to me. What matters to me, and will eventually matter to everyone, is the games. You could argue I'm only saying that because it's largely thought that the XBOX is more powerful than the Playstation and that I've taken this moment to duck out of the conversation. That's why I've taken this opportunity, in a thread about the potential of the Playstation being more powerful to say this. I don't care. I buy a console to play games, not to pixel count or obsess over numbers. It's just not FUN.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Its not just my opinion most journos think sony made a mistake by doing this complicated and boring style of presentation, why would Sony need to tell devs about the hardware details? You know those same devs that would of been working with the hardware for months....
I dont know why your talking that cerny does not care about me lol, he does not even know me lol, so what a stupid thing to say lol.
What sony do care about is good or bad press and so far there marketing strategy has been terrible weather it was intended or not , customers dont care what a companies intention are, they just care about what they offer.
My view on sonys presentation is just as relevant as yours or anyone elses. Why wouldn't it be?
HawarMiran
Banned
Agreed pushing native resolution is the most boring thing. Hope Sony pushes visuals and game design and not pixel count. Checkerboarding is good enough. I don't even have a problem with 30 fps but i know Im about to be lynched for saying that
Reindeer
Member
Agree, but you also want a console that can perform consistently and not run into the same issues that base Xbox One ran into. Even base PS4 is struggling to keep to steady framerate in some demanding games. Power does matter to a degree, but I don't think next gen consoles will have the bottlenecks that current gen consoles do.
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