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[cormack12]

I've watched the talk about 3/4 times now and I still don't get what he means. The most i can make out is that:

PS4 fans will kick in relative to heat/power consumption;
Complex geometry is easier (less demanding) than simple geometry (e.g. a menu screen in Horizon) to calculate;

So is he saying that, on the menu screen - because it's simple geometry, all the CU's have to kick in (at a locked clock rate) which causes a surge in power/heat and then the fans kick in? This is the video section where he goes over it:




It sounds like the PS5 cooling solution then is built to always cool at the same rate and power. So in the PS5 your cooling solution won't be kicking in and out, instead the CU's will be downclocked to what's required - hence the CU's won't be running hot to display a menu screen.

Is that right? Very much simplified I know.

 

[McCheese]

menu screens sometimes have unlocked frame rates which given how basic they are often result in them running at stupid FPS (200+) which saturates the CPU and GPU bus and causes things to get hot.

it's honestly one of my programmer pet peeves, just frame cap the menus ffs. it's also when you are most likely to hear coil whine for the same reason.

 

[cormack12]

menu screens sometimes have unlocked frame rates which given how basic they are often result in them running at stupid FPS (200+) which saturates the CPU and GPU bus and causes things to get hot.

it's honestly one of my programmer pet peeves, just frame cap the menus ffs.

It seems like such an easy fix though if it's that but it stays in games forever it seems - Rocket League still struggles with it despite being an issue since 2018. I take it it must be a CPU thing as PC's don't really seem bothered by it?

 

[longdi]

menu screens sometimes have unlocked frame rates which given how basic they are often result in them running at stupid FPS (200+) which saturates the CPU and GPU bus and causes things to get hot.

it's honestly one of my programmer pet peeves, just frame cap the menus ffs. it's also when you are most likely to hear coil whine for the same reason.

Basically this is what i thought of.

But i don't get why Mark Sony had to use this example. Seems out of scope and i dont hear of console games suffering for this.

Confusing thing to talk about ... what's is he trying to say?

 

[Hendrick's]

Confusing thing to talk about ... what's is he trying to say?

Well he couldn't talk about the SSD the whole time so cooling on menu screens seemed like the next best thing.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

All I know is they better figure something something out for PS5. I’m not doing it again for another 7 years. Spend some time and money to make your console cool and quiet Sony.

 

[BrentonB]

Basically this is what i thought of.

But i don't get why Mark Sony had to use this example. Seems out of scope and i dont hear of console games suffering for this.

Confusing thing to talk about ... what's is he trying to say?

He was saying that the old cooling method didn't account for weird edge cases like this that would see power draw on the console go through the roof. The new concept of constant power will prevent this and make the PS5 cooling much more consistent .

 

[sonomamashine]

Well he couldn't talk about the SSD the whole time so cooling on menu screens seemed like the next best thing.

have you forgotten sending Ear Nudes ?

 

[McCheese]

Basically this is what i thought of.

But i don't get why Mark Sony had to use this example. Seems out of scope and i dont hear of console games suffering for this.

Confusing thing to talk about ... what's is he trying to say?

The ps5 would be smart/aware enough to detect "why is this running at 200 FPS on a 60 Hz screen?" and downclock the cpu automatically on uncapped menus.

I guess it's the best example of where clocking lower is undoubtedly a good thing.

 

[Vawn]

All I know is they better figure something something out for PS5. I’m not doing it again for another 7 years. Spend some time and money to make your console cool and quiet Sony.

That's what they did. Cerny addressed that the PS4 was too loud and that a lot of research went into making this new quieter cooling method.

Hopefully, they managed this without resorting to creating a PC tower that won't fit into entertainment shelves easily.

 

[GymWolf]

menu screens sometimes have unlocked frame rates which given how basic they are often result in them running at stupid FPS (200+) which saturates the CPU and GPU bus and causes things to get hot.

it's honestly one of my programmer pet peeves, just frame cap the menus ffs. it's also when you are most likely to hear coil whine for the same reason.

why don't just lock the framerate at 60 frames for menus?

 

[Birdo]

I always wondered why the PS4 fans ramped up when you pause certain games.

 

[MayauMiao]

I always wondered why the PS4 fans ramped up when you pause certain games.

God of War menu screen in particular.

 

[TacosNSalsa]

Is there a reason why menus run unlocked? I feel like there has to be a some technical reason for it . I bought Train Simulator not too long ago on PC and that muthf*ka will hit over 1000 fps easy in the menus. Never in my life heard coil whine before on anything that wasn't a superchaged car. I freaked the hell out and manually locked it to 60 .

 

[cormack12]

Is there a reason why menus run unlocked? I feel like there has to be a some technical reason for it . I bought Train Simulator not too long ago on PC and that muthf*ka will hit over 1000 fps easy in the menus. Never in my life heard coil whine before on anything that wasn't a superchaged car. I freaked the hell out and manually locked it to 60 .

I did read a while back that some UI middleware - might have been autodesk, didn't have that as a build option

 

[ClanOfNone]

Cooling has been my biggest pet peeve with consoles since last gen. I don't want to listen to a fuckin hairdryer while I play my games. Is overheating the number one cause of hardware failure on the console side? After the 360 debacle it must be.
Stuff your consoles with all the power you want, but provide an adequate cooling solution fer cryin out loud.

 

[rofif]

just put 300fps limit on the console.
Or make vsync ceiling mandatory

 

[Soodanim]

Is there a reason why menus run unlocked? I feel like there has to be a some technical reason for it . I bought Train Simulator not too long ago on PC and that muthf*ka will hit over 1000 fps easy in the menus. Never in my life heard coil whine before on anything that wasn't a superchaged car. I freaked the hell out and manually locked it to 60 .

RivaTuner/GPU software global framerate locks are the way forward. Far too many situations where devs don't lock it. Especially given that it can have a negative effect on your expensive GPU.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Basically this is what i thought of.

But i don't get why Mark Sony had to use this example. Seems out of scope and i dont hear of console games suffering for this.

Confusing thing to talk about ... what's is he trying to say?

My Xone has horrible coil whine on most menus. Damn lazy devs.

 

[Tamy]

My Xone has horrible coil whine on most menus. Damn lazy devs.

Really? My One and One X are whisper quiet. Maybe clean the console? Or is it maybe a defective unit?

 

[DaGwaphics]

Really? My One and One X are whisper quiet. Maybe clean the console? Or is it maybe a defective unit?

It's fine other than this issue. I didn't think it would hold up well at first, but it seems fine. Luck of the draw when it comes to coil whine, just like the desktop GPUs.

 

[Sosokrates]

I don't understand how the ps5 cooling system works.

Normally this gen, the cooling system adjusts depending how hard the SoC is working, but from my understanding the PS5s cooling system is running at max all the time?

 

[DaGwaphics]

I don't understand how the ps5 cooling system works.

Normally this gen, the cooling system adjusts depending how hard the SoC is working, but from my understanding the PS5s cooling system is running at max all the time?

The "max" setting for the cooling is probably set conservatively, without much headroom for spikes. Thus, they are very concerned about increased power consumption dependent on load. The traditional scenario is you use a cooler that can handle the 95th percentile just fine, but maintain the ability to accelerate during max-load.

 

[Sosokrates]

The "max" setting for the cooling is probably set conservatively, without much headroom for spikes. Thus, they are very concerned about increased power consumption dependent on load. The traditional scenario is you use a cooler that can handle the 95th percentile just fine, but maintain the ability to accelerate during max-load.

Can u explain it to me like im 5, thanks.

 

[Nickolaidas]

I don't understand how the ps5 cooling system works.

Normally this gen, the cooling system adjusts depending how hard the SoC is working, but from my understanding the PS5s cooling system is running at max all the time?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the ps5's are cooled by a swarm of tiny naked pixies flying all over the motherboard and absorbing its heat.

 

[ethomaz]

Menus have unlocked framerate so even being simple it become a loop to increase the framerate to heavens that generate heat.

BTW to you stress to death any CPU/GPU with a simple infinite loop.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

That's what they did. Cerny addressed that the PS4 was too loud and that a lot of research went into making this new quieter cooling method.

Hopefully, they managed this without resorting to creating a PC tower that won't fit into entertainment shelves easily.

The size of the case is a secondary consideration, to me, as far as importance of being cool and QUIET. I’ll find a place to place the console.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Noise/heat/power consumption will likely be very consistent on the PSV, at the expense of performance under max load.

XSX will work just like the current consoles, it will likely be quiet most of the time, but will have spikes in noise/power/heat when the system is under extreme load. This is more likely to happen later in the generation when devs really start to push things (from the YT videos I've seen, there are a few games that can really make XboneX sing at this point).

 

[FranXico]

Install Phantom Pain and launch it. You'll hear what he was talking about.

 

[psorcerer]

Normally this gen, the cooling system adjusts depending how hard the SoC is working, but from my understanding the PS5s cooling system is running at max all the time?

There is no "max". All the TDP data is purely statistical.
So there is a chance that some combinations of loads will blow your GPU up, or even create a local blackhole.
Therefore everything is calculated by the "approximately maximum" loads and not "theoretically maximum".
If power consumption exceeds "approximately maximum" the cooling system will not run faster than it was designed for, but just downclock the components.
This way you cannot exceed this "maximum" on PS5.

 

[cormack12]

The "max" setting for the cooling is probably set conservatively, without much headroom for spikes. Thus, they are very concerned about increased power consumption dependent on load. The traditional scenario is you use a cooler that can handle the 95th percentile just fine, but maintain the ability to accelerate during max-load.

But I think that's what Cernys presentation says. Previously, the old style of building cooling units revolved around that use case which meant the UX design point was high mid point like this:

But he is talking about building the cooling solution around the sustained maximum clocks I think, which moves the UX design point to:

So with the constant load the cooling unit will be enough, but if you're not using the full budget then the CU's will downclock, when they downclock the devs get more power back - because the system is specced for full clocks at all times.

But as I understand it, if a game that's a hot mess comes along then it will be downlocked as well - i.e. if there's no budget left with Smartshift. This should theoretically make it easier for developers to identify and eek out performance spikes because they will have to.

Anyone else reading it that way?

 

[prinz_valium]

Complex geometry is harder because you need to utilize the hardware. Not that easy.
That's the reason, why Furmark or Prime 64 can easily melt your GPU and CPU.

About the fan? No idea what you mean

 

[DaGwaphics]

Heat isn't about maximum clocks, it's about workload. Cerny appears to describe a fixed cooling/power/heat envelope. This will result in reduced performance under heavy load (via heavy instructions, not clocks). Traditionally, you just get spikes in power usage and heat dissipation requirements here. If you simply improved your cooling system performance to included the heaviest workloads as a baseline, you are either spending too much on cooling or have a very loud system (you also completely negate the need/benefit of the variable clocks).

 

[LostDonkey]

menu screens sometimes have unlocked frame rates which given how basic they are often result in them running at stupid FPS (200+) which saturates the CPU and GPU bus and causes things to get hot.

it's honestly one of my programmer pet peeves, just frame cap the menus ffs. it's also when you are most likely to hear coil whine for the same reason.

ughhh my 7990 used to whine like mad on menu screens

kept me warm in the winter though

 

[ultrazilla]

Basically he's saying that when you're trying to play your PS5 while eating a snack, you won't get blown out the window
like your PS4 did to you.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if the ps5's are cooled by a swarm of tiny naked pixies flying all over the motherboard and absorbing its heat.

I'm sure Sony would find us some gender neutral pixies so that we don't objectify them by mistake.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

The size of the case is a secondary consideration, to me, as far as importance of being cool and QUIET. I’ll find a place to place the console.

I introduce you the PS5, it was built without any concerns for size.

(My actual PC case... Just not the innards, I have an AIO, 1 GPU 2 pcie SSDs + nvme boot disk, no spinning disks--they are in my NAS)

 

[IntentionalPun]

He's just describing a scenario where the system would normally go loud/hot despite not rendering anything crazy; don't really need to understand "why" really.

His point being? Their tech would detect the power draw going up and downclock.

Why use this example? He's probably bringing it up because "hey, downclocking isn't always bad, see?" But he's kinda too technical for most people to understand and probably should have just come out and said why he brought that up.

 

[Physiognomonics]

I don't understand how the ps5 cooling system works.

Normally this gen, the cooling system adjusts depending how hard the SoC is working, but from my understanding the PS5s cooling system is running at max all the time?

Not really because it will also depend on power load. But the max will the determined by the max power load and probably some margin for heat weather. So they know the max cooling they have to provide and can easily design the cooling solution around that, without surprises (meaning without jet engine noise). And it's easier to design an effective cooling solution when you know in advance the max heat to be cooled down.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Given how popular a subject loud Pro's were this gen, I have to believe Cerny and his team have cooked up a truly formidable (efficient and quiet) cooling solution this time around. At least I really hope so. This is one of the things I am most curious t learn about in the coming months.

 

[Vawn]

The size of the case is a secondary consideration, to me, as far as importance of being cool and QUIET. I’ll find a place to place the console.

Sure, but accomplishing both is even better.

 

[cormack12]

He's just describing a scenario where the system would normally go loud/hot despite not rendering anything crazy; don't really need to understand "why" really.

Yeah I understand what's happening, just don't understand why. It deosn't seem to happen on the X1X from what I've read and it's so common it seems daft there's not a fix if it's just a rate limiter. Because it is by far the thing that makes my PS4 the loudest, even beyond taxing games.

The most I can find is from a RL dev on Reddit, who said it was a tricky problem ages ago but RL is still loud on menus



Maybe this as well, but it seems to be guesswork.

Rocket League Overheating Problem On PS4 Temporary Fix Discovered | Attack of the Fanboy

This week's update for PS Plus for the month of July brought us the usual slew of games and one of them happened to be the newcomer Rocket League. Since

attackofthefanboy.com

Post #2

Game makes ps4 run loud - Rocket League

For Rocket League on the PlayStation 4, a GameFAQs message board topic titled "Game makes ps4 run loud".

gamefaqs.gamespot.com

 

[SGRU]

That's what they did. Cerny addressed that the PS4 was too loud and that a lot of research went into making this new quieter cooling method.

Hopefully, they managed this without resorting to creating a PC tower that won't fit into entertainment shelves easily.

I don't mind if it's the size of my car, but make it quiet.

 

[makaveli60]

What I still don't get is, since nobody could answer it, maybe here hopefully... What happens after years of use, dust collecting etc.? Constant temperature = constant fan speed, but if the console collects dust then it will reach that temperature limit easier so based on the logic the system will perform worse and worse as time goes on. Like my laptops, they perform noticeably worse as when I bought them. Please someone convince me that this is not what will happen with the PS5.

 

[GermanZepp]

What I still don't get is, since nobody could answer it, maybe here hopefully... What happens after years of use, dust collecting etc.? Constant temperature = constant fan speed, but if the console collects dust then it will reach that temperature limit easier so based on the logic the system will perform worse and worse as time goes on. Like my laptops, they perform noticeably worse as when I bought them. Please someone convince me that this is not what will happen with the PS5.

The dust just adds to the problem but don't cause it. Jet engine fan in title screen is a thing and one or multiple stuff is happening to trigger it.

 

[Vawn]

I don't mind if it's the size of my car, but make it quiet.

Well, most people would mind. The average person doesn't want their video game console being the centerpiece of the living room.

I personally have a full media room dedicated to gaming with a separate media closet, 7.2 surround sound and all wiring done through the walls. Honestly, the size of the console won't effect me much, but neither would fan noise - I won't ever see or hear the console while I'm gaming.

Still, it is good to hear PS5 solved the noise problem. I just hope they did it without the console looking tacky and bulky.

 

[makaveli60]

The dust just adds to the problem but don't cause it. Jet engine fan in title screen is a thing and one or multiple stuff is happening to trigger it.

I don't care about the fan noise, I just want the best performance possible but I'm worried that as time goes on the system will perform worse and worse. Or maybe this will be solved by adjusting the fan's constant speed gradually. But the problem is that they don't communicate well so we are left here theorizing such about such things that we shouldn't even care about. I think this is partially the result of people constantly bitching about the fan noise.

 

[LordOfChaos]

He was just giving one example of a 'power virus', a worst case coding situation drawing maximum power. And I've seen a lot of games do that whether it's an easy fix or not. Simple scene, no cap, I guess.


It's not that that alone is a major issue, but he's saying that even in this situation the new paradigm will handle it better, being a worst case.

 

[GermanZepp]

I don't care about the fan noise, I just want the best performance possible but I'm worried that as time goes on the system will perform worse and worse. Or maybe this will be solved by adjusting the fan's constant speed gradually. But the problem is that they don't communicate well so we are left here theorizing such about such things that we shouldn't even care about. I think this is partially the result of people constantly bitching about the fan noise.

Ps4 and pro Fan noise is unacceptable imo. And is a design flaw.

 

[Birdo]

Install Phantom Pain and launch it. You'll hear what he was talking about.

Makes me wonder if this is why the Fox Engine died so quickly.

Pausing MGSV nearly made my PS4 float.