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eastwood333
Banned
Brad Sams. Google him. And your armchair expertise is better? Got it! And their are MS devs stating themselves the flaws in variable clocks. Perhaps your armchair dev expertise knows more than them also?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
My launch PS4 is dead silent (gave it to a friend, still dead silent since 2013, never been cleaned at all). My PS4 Pro is dead silent most of the time but you can barely hear some fan (not even noise) if you are in like 28C room with the AC off. Most if the time room temperature is around 25C and it's in a near open space. Never cleaned any of them. Seen around 100 PS4 in shitty situation, all of them are dead silent. Only one was insanely noisy, my sister's base PS4, and it was actually the first US market batch sold here 1 month before official release.
I think PS4 is being built in different assemblies/factories and some of them aren't getting enough attention. Here it supposed to be hotter so we should expect even extreme noise if it's the norm.
ToadMan
Member
But you don't know that do you? I mean boost clocks have been around on PCs for 15 years or more now - would you think that technology would last so long if there wasn't a gain to be had?
As for development issues - there have already been plenty of developers saying the PS5 is anything but more difficult to code for - so no need to trust any one here if you don't want.
I laugh at the term "armchair developers" too - how do you think we code? On a jogging machine? While riding a bike? I code sitting in a comfy chair - if someone else wants to be uncomfortable good luck to them.
DrDamn
Member
It's about load still, not speed, so like you Brad isn't understanding how it works.
And we are back to PS5 vs XSX to prove that fixed is better than variable - it's not about PS5 vs XSX, it's whether the tech improves a machine which doesn't use it.
XSX will perform better than PS5. That's not because it uses fixed clocks it's because it's got more CUs running at a fast speed. The point is Smartshift-like technology makes PS5 perform better than it would if it didn't have it, just like it would make XSX perform better if it had it.
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sircaw
Banned
My launch PS4 is dead silent (gave it to a friend, still dead silent since 2013, never been cleaned at all). My PS4 Pro is dead silent most of the time but you can barely hear some fan (not even noise) if you are in like 28C room with the AC off. Most if the time room temperature is around 25C and it's in a near open space. Never cleaned any of them. Seen around 100 PS4 in shitty situation, all of them are dead silent. Only one was insanely noisy, my sister's base PS4, and it was actually the first US market batch sold here 1 month before official release.
I think PS4 is being built in different assemblies/factories and some of them aren't getting enough attention. Here it supposed to be hotter so we should expect even extreme noise if it's the norm.
Did they really put snow on that chart, is that possible in Oman, are there mountain ranges there?
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Can you be any more obvious with your concern trolling?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Snow just happened 2 days ago, more like ice. Here in Salalah it's sub-tropical, so we don't get ice, but some parts of Oman get that like 2000-3000m altitude mountains, and we have plenty of mountains here
Like 100km to the north it's getting beyond 40C.PS the country is mostly desert/dry though.
My car for reference to that license plate, here it's more moderate:
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azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Yeah I'm really curious about the noise level of Ps5, 6 fans seems a lot but if they are rotating at lower frequency it might reduce noise.My launch PS4 is dead silent (gave it to a friend, still dead silent since 2013, never been cleaned at all). My PS4 Pro is dead silent most of the time but you can barely hear some fan (not even noise) if you are in like 28C room with the AC off. Most if the time room temperature is around 25C and it's in a near open space. Never cleaned any of them. Seen around 100 PS4 in shitty situation, all of them are dead silent. Only one was insanely noisy, my sister's base PS4, and it was actually the first US market batch sold here 1 month before official release.
I think PS4 is being built in different assemblies/factories and some of them aren't getting enough attention. Here it supposed to be hotter so we should expect even extreme noise if it's the norm.
I came across a french video really interesting speaking about the venturi effect mentionning that it would fasten airflow where it is needed (gpu,cpu...).
In the video it is stated that it is really ironic that the console is based around removing bottlenecks but is using one to better cool the console.
sircaw
Banned
Snow just happened 2 days ago, more like ice. Here in Salalah it's sub-tropical, so we don't get ice, but some parts of Oman get that like 2000-3000m altitude mountains, and we have plenty of mountains here
My car for reference to that license plate, here it's more moderate:
That's not snow, That's you trying to smuggle 100 tonnes of coke across the border.
Seriously though, i was looking at the Oman wiki page, some beautiful pictures there, love the oceans or seas, totally spectacular.
And what the hell is Al-Bustan Palace Hotel, it looks like a place where i want to go when i die, just divine.
CrysisFreak
Banned
sircaw
Banned
Yeah I'm really curious about the noise level of Ps5, 6 fans seems a lot but if they are rotating at lower frequency it might reduce noise.
I came across a french video really interesting speaking about the venturi effect mentionning that it would fasten airflow where it is needed (gpu,cpu...).
In the video it is stated that it is really ironic that the console is based around removing bottlenecks but is using one to better cool the console.
My sponge filter uses the venturi effect to, its dead silent.
Setsuna Mudou
Member
That's not how it works, sorry. More CUs generate more heat as well. It's not just the frequencies you need to worry about.
Let's put it this way... MS can only push the clocks so far before it overheats the system. Why do you think both consoles being zen 2 + rdna2 based and yet only Sony can comfortably push the GPU clock that high?
Rudius
Member
My Pro is loud and I live in Brazil, so I'm more fucked than Abby on that boatMy launch PS4 is dead silent (gave it to a friend, still dead silent since 2013, never been cleaned at all). My PS4 Pro is dead silent most of the time but you can barely hear some fan (not even noise) if you are in like 28C room with the AC off. Most if the time room temperature is around 25C and it's in a near open space. Never cleaned any of them. Seen around 100 PS4 in shitty situation, all of them are dead silent. Only one was insanely noisy, my sister's base PS4, and it was actually the first US market batch sold here 1 month before official release.
I think PS4 is being built in different assemblies/factories and some of them aren't getting enough attention. Here it supposed to be hotter so we should expect even extreme noise if it's the norm.
The PS5 will be quiet that is why it is so large with that cooling solution. There should be no question about this now. It's not like they tried to make it the size of a PS4. This is not a concern anymore. It has everything needed to be silent this can be put to bed.Yeah I'm really curious about the noise level of Ps5, 6 fans seems a lot but if they are rotating at lower frequency it might reduce noise.
I came across a french video really interesting speaking about the venturi effect mentionning that it would fasten airflow where it is needed (gpu,cpu...).
In the video it is stated that it is really ironic that the console is based around removing bottlenecks but is using one to better cool the console.
Setsuna Mudou
Member
That's so silly to the point of being childish. No hardware can be pushed to its limits all day everyday without throttling. Actually the thermal throttling is a defense mechanism so you don't end up with a potato of a console in a few month's time
Go run some Furmark or other stress test benchmarks on a real GPU one of these days and look at the thermals. Don't fall for MS bullshit, that's pure marketing speech
Smartshift is made to intelligently balance power where it's needed and reduce bottlenecks. Meaning you can use more of the hardware you paid for, not less.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
I ran furmark and a cpu burner at the same time for more than 30 minutes with 30+ degree ambient tempson an air cooled system to test new case fans and neither throttled.
But nice attempt at more complete bullshit.
azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Oh yeah I'm sure about that too but I'm still curious will it be a slight whisper or completely inaudible even at really close range.
Xplainin
Banned
It could run faster without Smartshift if they really wanted to. And they have a slight clock up tick before it gets released.
Why wouldn't they use smartshift?
MS think it adds more variability for the devs and they prefer not to use it.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yeah it's an old hotel, regularly overhauled by the government. If politicians and so come it's closed and have them all inside. It's found in the capital, Muscat.
Around here, there is Al Baleed Resort Salalah - by Anantara. Pretty expensive shit. If you come here I'll throw you inside a bottle of water and you're gonna be fine, no need to spend so much money for a hotel.
Thirty7ven
Banned
Well since devs say the PS5 is easier to work with I'm guessing MS didn't want to add any more hurdles. It was the smart choice for them.
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PaintTinJr
Member
But in the changing (deterministic) clocks situation (of the PS5) the developer has more information at their disposal -as they know the power draw and resulting clock from that power draw, even at a pseudo code writing stage.,
Optimising the PS5 is two stage AFAIK from Road to PS5 and DF follow up interview. Optimise for the task to maximize workload(occupancy) - which obviously helps the XsX fixed clocks too - and then in the second stage, find a way to lower occupancy while achieving the same results (saving power for max workload) thereby getting a higher deterministic clock - which unfortunately will un-optimise the XsX, because even though it gets more work done for less power, the lower occupancy of 36 CUs on Ps5 is going to reduce occupancy even further on a 52CU GPU with the same code - leaving more performance on the shelf.
Power-optimised games on PS5 getting late ports to the XsX are likely going to need a re-write - as they'll need a rewrite to widen CU use and then because that will draw more power, resulting in more heat that might exceed the XsX power limit, so may need other adjustments too. If the Xbox was the market leader this might not be such an issue, but if things go as they have since the PS1 it might be problematic for PC and XsX with wider CU counts when the variable clock narrower market leader is get power-optimised solutions working in the opposite direction
Xplainin
Banned
Nah. Let's be real here.
For whatever reason Sony ended up with a 36 CU GPU. Be that because of back compat or they were looking at launching in 2019.
Because of this they found themselves with a console that was behind the XSX in power levels, and so we're only left with increasing clocks to close the power gap. That led to other issues they needed to solve such as thermal and power.
Nobody in their right mind thinks that Sony went in to this gen with the goal of using variable clocks from the outset.
I think Sony have done a good job to get to where they have.
sircaw
Banned
I am packing my bags as we speak Bo, Pick me up at the airport in one of those luxury double humped camels, with air con.
You have a guest arriving.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
It's the same thing with XSX as well, if extra load is present and the cooling of XSX isn't sufficient enough it'll throttle or drop frames. We will know when we have head 2 head comparisons of the same game.
Ass of Can Whooping
Member
Crimson_Fate
Member
Actually its not that XSX doesn't need it, they cant really use it to the extent that sony has given their design choices. The two companies went in different directions. MST has a Die size which is almost the same size as the PS5 but they have packed its silicon with more CU's closer together so it must run at lower clocks. So it could implement smartshift but it would have a very narrow range of frequency changes available before thermals would stop them
Sony is rumored to have designed their silicon to have more space between the components and their overall cooling solution more robust specifically to be able to run their chips at the higher clocks and be able to cool them while using a set power budget and keeping their system quiet ( we'll see how quiet it is) , This is why Sony can Clock their GPU's 17% higher then microsoft,
Thirty7ven
Banned
Here we go creating fictional narratives. 0% technical observation 100% fan fiction. Why?
Bo_Hazem
Banned
We don't offer double humped camels here, I think it's Aussie spec. But here, hope these are enough. I'll give you the muddy one to cut costs and compensate for those fancy hotels.
Photographed in 30-Aug-2014 though
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Xplainin
Banned
Time will tell.
sircaw
Banned
We don't offer double humped camels here, I think it's Aussie spec. But here, hope these are enough. I'll give you the muddy one to cut costs compensate for those fancy hotels.
Photographed in 30-Aug-2014 though
fs how much luggage do you think i have, i only need one, for a bowl.
Looks awesome.
Crazychipmunx
Member
Currently we don't have enough information to make definitive statements such as fixed/variable clocks are better.
Trying to use statements from a competitor, who does not have access to development kits (both in favour of ms and sony) is exercise in futility. Additionally, using content creators who are xbox/playstation centric as authorities on performance of competing consoles is a pretty weak argument.
However we can just agree that both Ms and Sony have went for different design philosophies, and until we can gather real data and performance metrics we cannot argue definitively which is better.
Trying to use statements from a competitor, who does not have access to development kits (both in favour of ms and sony) is exercise in futility. Additionally, using content creators who are xbox/playstation centric as authorities on performance of competing consoles is a pretty weak argument.
However we can just agree that both Ms and Sony have went for different design philosophies, and until we can gather real data and performance metrics we cannot argue definitively which is better.
Xplainin
Banned
It's just a reality.
Were you thinking the PS5 was going to have a 36cu GPU?
I bet London to a brick you did not believe the PS5 would have the same amount of Cu's as the Pro did prior to reveal.
It is what it is.
You can think differently, but we are here with a variable speed PS5 APU.
Xplainin
Banned
Show me where it says the PS5s Cu's are spaced further away than they are on XSX.
MasterCornholio
Member
Because it's probably not just a software implementation. I've read that Sony has to use a specialized power controller to pull off their variable clocks. If the XSX doesn't have something similar then it wouldn't be possible.
Why wouldn't Microsoft flip a switch for more free power?
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Setsuna Mudou
Member
Lol, no, they won't
And if you believe that, there's this bridge I can sell you at a really good price
Thirty7ven
Banned
Who cares, it's about performance. And so far we have the same target performances in multiplatform games, even the 120 FPS one in Dirt 2. And on top of that I get a real leap forward with the Dual sense and the SSD/IO, things that will affect my experience every time I boot it on.
You're too caught up in the fictional narrative. The real stuff happens once we see H2H, sales, feeback from the controllers etc
On that bit about controllers, it's the more subjective part sure but there are enough differences here. If Gyro aiming picks up, which its starting to seem like it will, that's going to be a marked difference.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
That's so silly to the point of being childish. No hardware can be pushed to its limits all day everyday without throttling. Actually the thermal throttling is a defense mechanism so you don't end up with a potato of a console in a few month's time
Go run some Furmark or other stress test benchmarks on a real GPU one of these days and look at the thermals. Don't fall for MS bullshit, that's pure marketing speech
Smartshift is made to intelligently balance power where it's needed and reduce bottlenecks. Meaning you can use more of the hardware you paid for, not less.
Actually XSX will be unpredictable and would need more attention to details due to unpredictable power draw by using conventional methods (temperature based). When XSX gets a demanding scene, and generates heat beyond its traditional cooling method, it should throttle much longer and noticeable than smartshift that measures power draw directly instead.
Name change for you please, Mulder i suggest
Sony
Nintendo
Variable clocks and thorttling discussion still going on? Sony's variable clock implementation is not what we know from traditional CPU throttling found in modern electronic devices such as laptops, smartphones etc. The influence of ambient temperatures on game performances is laughable.
They will test the highest possible clock of the GPU with the corresponding CPU clock and they will also thest the highest possible CPU with the corresponding GPU clock. In other words, Sony will test all possible load scenarios (sustained, max cpu, max gpu) for normalized ambient temperatures.
They will test the highest possible clock of the GPU with the corresponding CPU clock and they will also thest the highest possible CPU with the corresponding GPU clock. In other words, Sony will test all possible load scenarios (sustained, max cpu, max gpu) for normalized ambient temperatures.
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DaGwaphics
Member
If it's built like consoles always have been it will never throttle on temps, just go until it hits the defined critical temp and then turn off with an error message.
farmerboy
Member
Not sure how you get this deluded. Both teams have created a console according to their set silicone budget.
MS went the "traditional" route. For want of a better word.
Sony invested heavily in the SSD and accompanying processing. Fast CUs were always going to be needed to compensate for lack of CU count, due to SSD silicone.
This narrative that Sony had to compromise last minute is a fan fic delusion. It was part of the design doc from word go.
And so far I haven't seen anything running realtime on the X that shows me they chose the better option.
Crimson_Fate
Member
Setsuna Mudou
Member
30 minutes, wow, what a champ...
The claim was that there's some magical hardware that somehow can run at max clocks all day everyday. No real world scenario requires a cpu or gpu to run at 100% utilization at full clock speed. It's the same as saying you've been riding you car for 5 minutes past the RPM red line. If you have a fast car and try to do it a few times, well let's say you'll need to Fred Flintstone back to the mechanic for a new engine
Silicone has a certain life expectancy. The only sort of scenario where you will run a gpu at max clocks is if you're crypto mining. And when you do so, you're basically running the fans at 100% non stop and you'll still burn out the card in a year's time.
Very bold assertions. How do you know XSX is a better design than PS5 for sustained performance, less heat, and very quiet? You got anything technical to back up your claims than just wishful thinking??
pasterpl
Member
heat and cooling, potential overheating issues, there are lots of reasons
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