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Because my advice doesn't apply.

Absolutely.

 

[Panajev2001a]

well, after yesterday finding the fab code corresponding to Oberon we know enough about the ps5 right ?. The specs speak for themselves one has better cpu gpu and bw. both would be able to use the SSD as memory (I think ms was referring precisely to this with its "100gb immediately available") I don't think any third party ever will. still we wait for confirmations on vrs mesh shader ml and everything else no? we will see in the first year benches.

Both can use the SSD as extension of RAM sure but if you do then exactly how fast the SSD is, the latency and throughout of it, and how heavy it is on the CPU matter (and one console invested more on it and the other invested on a wider GPU).

The code found yesterday does not tell us a huge bunch (I could be wrong), but we can compare it with the data we have available for XSX (the HotChips presentation) and how the bumper of ROPS, the Command Processor, ACE’s, etc... all shared HW outside of the CU is present in the same quantity in both designs so the performance delta is really clockspeed bound.

 

[quest]

Not to start an "argument" here, but did DF, John, someone from them also say that PS5 and SX were going to be $600 OR MORE recently?

That said, I have spoken to Devs with both consoles and they also prefer the PS5 and say it is further along in SDK than Xbox, AGAIN. (Not my words, theirs).

I have also some other bits I have been told and eluded to in regards to API's Ray Tracing implementation, SFS etc which sounds like it is not as ready as the hardware just yet.

Looking forward to digging into the launch games VERY SOON.

I'm shocked you only have bad news for the series x. Hows that flight simulator reviews again?

 

[ethomaz]

It is not the first time they says devs are surprise by PS5 perfomrance.
And they are not the only one that said that.

BTW I expect at least for the first year of releases the PS5 versions of the games showing better performance and/or graphics than Series X.

 

[Redlight]

lol does that discord server even exist? Sounds like a boogeyman story Sony fanboys tell themselves around the campfire at night.

The discord is the biggest paranoid beat up in history. There was an Xbox discord with a bunch of members, including a DF staff member. A couple of the members in that group talked about 'spreading the message' via places like this (not the DF member, notably). Some people saw that as a massive conspiracy and sought to label everyone in the discord as part of it. Guilt by association.

It's like calling me a Sony fanboy because I go to the same site as Bo Hazem and Geordiemp.








PS - How do you easily tag members you mention in a post? I managed to do it once but it was torturous, I bet there's an easy way.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Not to start an "argument" here, but did DF, John, someone from them also say that PS5 and SX were going to be $600 OR MORE recently?

That said, I have spoken to Devs with both consoles and they also prefer the PS5 and say it is further along in SDK than Xbox, AGAIN. (Not my words, theirs).

I have also some other bits I have been told and eluded to in regards to API's Ray Tracing implementation, SFS etc which sounds like it is not as ready as the hardware just yet.

Looking forward to digging into the launch games VERY SOON.

Also the same thing DF said. As far as the price they were just going off the parts cost, not a real rumor, and were wondering how they'd get the price down. Not really a rumor misfire but an estimate.

Alex was saying the Xbox is moving to a new general development kit that's a bit behind developmentally, where PS5's is evolving the PS4's and developers were able to dive right in. Being less bespoke to the hardware the GDK might not extract every bit of its performance.

 

[NXGamer]

I'm shocked you only have bad news for the series x. Hows that flight simulator reviews again?

You see, AND THIS, is why I do not share a lot of info I get, as unless it suits one side then it is a lie and "bad" news.

To make you feel better, I also heard the SSD space on PS5 is not loved but a known sacrifice and the extended SSD is going to become core on it as the gen unfolds.

MS noted this and made the hot swap SSD which is liked a lot.

The info after AMD share it on the Infinity Cache and the PS5 "scrubbers" will likely not be a happy moment for some either.

If you want a mouth piece for each company that is what PR is for, as a reviewer you need to be clear on info and data points, otherwise WHAT IS THE POINT?

Also the same thing DF said. As far as the price they were just going off the parts cost, not a real rumor, and were wondering how they'd get the price down. Not really a rumor misfire but an estimate.

Alex was saying the Xbox is moving to a new general development kit that's a bit behind developmentally, where PS5's is evolving the PS4's and developers were able to dive right in. Being less bespoke to the hardware the GDK might not extract every bit of its performance.

It's ok, DF are not biased, only me ;-)

 

[geordiemp]

Dude just let it go.

Is that you convincing me in your mind ? Am I a dude ?

we literally have hardware specs...

We do ? So tell us about infinity cache and how it translates to performance ?

What are the cache sizes of XSX, Ps5 for L2 and L1 ? What are the bandwidths to the shaders from L2 and L1 in each array ?

We know very little other than the marketing basics. I dont know, you dont know, you have to wait.

People can convince themelves this or that is stronger based on 1 number, thats fine, come back and discuss when we see more results please.

 

[Faithless83]

Narrative remains the same, they just can`t deny what devs have been saying for a while now.

This or Bo_Hazem thread on how to do the analysis ourselves, got them scared.... then again....

 

[Bojanglez]

Lol yes there is evidence that one will be better. We know the Specs. On the same Arch, the GPU with better raw rasterization performance is just going to be objectively better. We don’t know the size of the gap for sure, but don’t pretend like it’s actually a tossup.

Yes the data points that have been made public implies that your theory is likely to be true, all I am saying is that we haven't seen the evidence yet.

Edit: basically someone asks for a receipt and you are showing them the menu

 

[mckmas8808]

"Secret Sauce" lol

How is any of that dedicated hardware secret sauce?

 

[LordOfChaos]

"Teraflops are just a meaningless paper calculation"

And every computer scientist in existence audibly protest's in chorus.

I'm so tired of hearing "Teraflops aren't the margin of which to measure system power"

If that is true, then when software optimizations meant to bolster's teraflop performance over 10x (making a single teraflop do 135 trillion calculations a second opposed to the current 4 trillion - a teraflop originally was a measure of 1 trillion operations a second - sub par software optimization have bolstered this number to 4 trillion - within 3 to 4 years - 135 trillion calculations through software optimization is on the roadmap - and this is before using new wild machine learning method like DLSS 3.0 ect.. to boost performance.. though these software optimizations will be aided by machine learning too) as it is scheduled to do - (I say sub par here, as it is only the first round of teraflop performance operations through software optimization that has had... any impact) please do not utilize these methods to increase graphic fidelity across your ecosystems. And please exit the performance Arena if Teraflop performance is not the important factor when attempting to achieve exemplary graphics.

Ridiculous.

Bolded
1) I did?
2) You've already undone your argument. The Gflops we talk about in console terms are a purely theoretical paper calculation of shader ALUs * 2 ops per core per clock * clock speed. By talking about optimization, you've already acknowledged this is far from all there is to it.

It also only looks at shader theoretical performance alone. The Xbox certainly has more. But that's not all there is on a GPU, as Cerny alluded to, several developers, DF, NX, and others have winked at. A 23% clock speed advantage also means everything else is clocked higher on the GPU, the command processors, the buffers, the caches, the coprocessors, there may be other advantages to the GPU outside of the peak shader theoretical performance console warriors like to boil things down to. That's without considering the geometry engine, API differences, etc.

 

[Zombie9ers]

Wish there was more context to this and not just a vague statement. Really interested to see how it improves previous PS4 games. Hopefully all of the instant collection games get PS5 patches out of the gate - Bloodborne specifically would be awesome

 

[Cyborg]

So much salty comments about DF. They are doing an amazing job. Do they make mistakes? Yeah ofcourse, but they are rhe best for technical insights.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

How is any of that dedicated hardware secret sauce?

This is a joke. It was said of the original Xbox One, which has a TON of dedicated processors, signal processors, a complex audio processor, dedicated hardware for decompression etc. Basically, once it was revealed to be weaker in GPU performance than the PS4, Xbox fans were saying that it was about the whole package saying that it had "a secret Sauce" by using this dedicated hardware and slightly faster CPU for extra performance in games and "the powah of the cloud" too, once Microsoft showed the crackdown demo... This was all pre launch.

Upon launch the reality was much simpler. The better GPU performed better for games overall... That being the PS4.

If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

 

[Manstructiclops]

Leadbetter is 'loyal' to one thing, and that's wichard bedwetter. The mercenarial cunt would murder his own grandma on camera if he thought it'd get him a handful more clicks.

 

[PropellerEar]

I watch their content for analysis and not their hot takes or MSFT scripts(Gears5 analysis).
Demon souls analysis didn't show any proof of resolution, Spider-man(PS5 remaster) analysis was more about other games and the point that they clearly wanted to put PS5 on same level as 2060s.
Original Spider-man analysis from D dark10x is pretty solid.

If you want to see a proper analysis of Spider-man(PS5 remaster) just watch NXGamer analysis.

DF has become xbox influencer as of late, prob signed the same deal as Grub and many others.

 

[Strider Highwind]

I think I can speak for all of us waiting on either console when I say its cool John and Digital Foundry found folks to be pleasantly surprised...but we ready to buy them joints and rip em open lol

 

[Physiognomonics]

You see, AND THIS, is why I do not share a lot of info I get, as unless it suits one side then it is a lie and "bad" news.

To make you feel better, I also heard the SSD space on PS5 is not loved but a known sacrifice and the extended SSD is going to become core on it as the gen unfolds.

MS noted this and made the hot swap SSD which is liked a lot.

The info after AMD share it on the Infinity Cache and the PS5 "scrubbers" will likely not be a happy moment for some either.

If you want a mouth piece for each company that is what PR is for, as a reviewer you need to be clear on info and data points, otherwise WHAT IS THE POINT?


It's ok, DF are not biased, only me ;-)

Which side is not going to be happy?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Fired in 3... 2... 1...

 

[mckmas8808]

This is a joke. It was said of the original Xbox One, which has a TON of dedicated processors, signal processors, a complex audio processor, dedicated hardware for decompression etc. Basically, once it was revealed to be weaker in GPU performance than the PS4, Xbox fans were saying that it was about the whole package saying that it had "a secret Sauce" by using this dedicated hardware and slightly faster CPU for extra performance in games and "the powah of the cloud" too, once Microsoft showed the crackdown demo... This was all pre launch.

Upon launch the reality was much simpler. The better GPU performed better for games overall... That being the PS4.

If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

You are 100% correct with the bolded. And the facts are the difference in GPU between the X1 and PS4 was bigger than the difference in GPU between the XSX and PS5 (one was a 40% difference and now it's a 17% difference).

 

[Andodalf]

Yes the data points that have been made public implies that your theory is likely to be true, all I am saying is that we haven't seen the evidence yet.

Edit: basically someone asks for a receipt and you are showing them the menu

???? We know the rasterization performance. If it's a menu, One guy ordered a Mac Double, and the other a quarter Pounder. We know what they're getting.

 

[LordOfChaos]

This is a joke. It was said of the original Xbox One, which has a TON of dedicated processors, signal processors, a complex audio processor, dedicated hardware for decompression etc. Basically, once it was revealed to be weaker in GPU performance than the PS4, Xbox fans were saying that it was about the whole package saying that it had "a secret Sauce" by using this dedicated hardware and slightly faster CPU for extra performance in games and "the powah of the cloud" too, once Microsoft showed the crackdown demo... This was all pre launch.

Upon launch the reality was much simpler. The better GPU performed better for games overall... That being the PS4.

If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.

Developers weren't saying the XBO would outperform its numbers, were they? To be perfectly crystal clear, I'm not expecting anything to bridge the shader gap, the Series X is more powerful there. But the situation does have significant differences from the base 8th gen. The difference is 17% on peak shader flops, not 40%, and on top of that the PS5's GPU is clocked 23% higher, so while it still comes in with less peak shader flops, everything else on the die is also clocked higher - the command processor, buffers, caches, coprocessors, etc.

It's not unreasonable to think many people alluding to it maybe retaining some advantages outside of shader flops is reasonable.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

I'm shocked you only have bad news for the series x. Hows that flight simulator reviews again?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Bickering over low - medium spec hardware, when will it ever end. Hardware wise, neither are anything to brag about.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

You are 100% correct with the bolded. And the facts are the difference in GPU between the X1 and PS4 was bigger than the difference in GPU between the XSX and PS5 (one was a 40% difference and now it's a 17% difference).

17% - almost 30% due to the nature of how the PS5 will throttle. Regardless, the XSX is slightly more powerful. Yet, we are nearing a time when it's becoming less relevant though. Tougher to see the returns. I don't think we'll see nearly the difference in these consoles like we did even this generation, which was negligible most of the time too. Minor resolution difference, shadows, stuff like that with nearly imperceptible difference will probably be the norm.

And Sony will probably make some ridiculous looking game that plays like a CGI cutscene on it's very slightly weaker console but still be the graphics king.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

Developers weren't saying the XBO would outperform its numbers, were they? To be perfectly crystal clear, I'm not expecting anything to bridge the shader gap, the Series X is more powerful there. But the situation does have significant differences from the base 8th gen. The difference is 17% on peak shader flops, not 40%, and on top of that the PS5's GPU is clocked 23% higher, so while it still comes in with less peak shader flops, everything else on the die is also clocked higher - the command processor, buffers, caches, coprocessors, etc.

It's not unreasonable to think many people alluding to it maybe retaining some advantages outside of shader flops is reasonable.

Developers? No. I'm just talking about us internet dudes. There were only a couple devs early on saying anything about the power discrepancy, and they were all saying the PS4 was more powerful and could yield higher resolution.

 

[Piku_Ringo]

It's ok, DF are not biased, only me ;-)

We can't consider you credible until you at least have a 1 million sub count.

 

[Panajev2001a]

17% - almost 30% due to the nature of how the PS5 will throttle.

Winking and nodding at 9 TFLOPS or less angle, dig at their first party games with a variant of the trite walking simulator dig, etc... good effort .

 

[Faithless83]

17% - almost 30% due to the nature of how the PS5 will throttle. Regardless, the XSX is slightly more powerful. Yet, we are nearing a time when it's becoming less relevant though. Tougher to see the returns. I don't think we'll see nearly the difference in these consoles like we did even this generation, which was negligible most of the time too. Minor resolution difference, shadows, stuff like that with nearly imperceptible difference will probably be the norm.

And Sony will probably make some ridiculous looking game that plays like a CGI cutscene on it's very slightly weaker console but still be the graphics king.

Have you seen the heat pipes on that thing? How can you say it will throttle?
Please don't confuse throttling with smart shift.

I believe a lot of posts in this thread won't age well.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Developers? No. I'm just talking about us internet dudes. There were only a couple devs early on saying anything about the power discrepancy, and they were all saying the PS4 was more powerful and could yield higher resolution.

Yeah, exactly. Developers knew the situation back then, but this time there have been other signals. I can certainly see the parallels to the 8th gen but we can also acknowledge there are significant differences as I mentioned above. Nothing will bridge the pure shader flops advantage. But shader flops are but one thing, and the rest of the GPU is also clocked 23% higher. I think this is going to be far more of a mixed bag than the base 8th gen.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

Winking and nodding at 9 TFLOPS or less angle, dig at their first party games with a variant of the trite walking simulator dig, etc... good effort .

It wasn't a dig. I may have come off a little facetious with my last comment. Yet I play all of Sony's games and literally bought a PS4 Pro just so I could play Ghost of Tsushima in the best possible way.

 

[martino]

So much salty comments about DF. They are doing an amazing job. Do they make mistakes? Yeah ofcourse, but they are rhe best for technical insights.

this and again if you listen to the million stream themselves are aware they are still learning and need to improve.

 

[LisaMariaMartin]

Not to start an "argument" here, but did DF, John, someone from them also say that PS5 and SX were going to be $600 OR MORE recently?

That said, I have spoken to Devs with both consoles and they also prefer the PS5 and say it is further along in SDK than Xbox, AGAIN. (Not my words, theirs).

I have also some other bits I have been told and eluded to in regards to API's Ray Tracing implementation, SFS etc which sounds like it is not as ready as the hardware just yet.

Looking forward to digging into the launch games VERY SOON.

How many devs have you spoken to?

 

[MastaKiiLA]

The games will speak for themselves. In the end, I expect both systems to put out equally-impressive stuff. I look forward to seeing what the next-gen Gears looks like, while I'm enjoying the next-gen GOW. Everyone wins!

 

[Sid Of Bee]

Have you seen the heat pipes on that thing? How can you say it will throttle?
Please don't confuse throttling with smart shift.

I believe a lot of posts in this thread won't age well.

Maybe it won't. Regardless I don't think it'll even be a big deal. I have yet to read anything or hear anyone explain the difference in what the PS5 does compared to throttling.

If it's not throttling to control heat, what's the purpose? I'll admit, I don't understand this part.

 

[martino]

You see, AND THIS, is why I do not share a lot of info I get, as unless it suits one side then it is a lie and "bad" news.

To make you feel better, I also heard the SSD space on PS5 is not loved but a known sacrifice and the extended SSD is going to become core on it as the gen unfolds.

MS noted this and made the hot swap SSD which is liked a lot.

The info after AMD share it on the Infinity Cache and the PS5 "scrubbers" will likely not be a happy moment for some either.

If you want a mouth piece for each company that is what PR is for, as a reviewer you need to be clear on info and data points, otherwise WHAT IS THE POINT?


It's ok, DF are not biased, only me ;-)

You are both. But the cherry picking on you or them tell us more on the by far bigger bias of poeple doing it.
When you are at the point of doing list of that kind of things :

 

[Clear]

You see, AND THIS, is why I do not share a lot of info I get, as unless it suits one side then it is a lie and "bad" news.

To make you feel better, I also heard the SSD space on PS5 is not loved but a known sacrifice and the extended SSD is going to become core on it as the gen unfolds.

MS noted this and made the hot swap SSD which is liked a lot.

The info after AMD share it on the Infinity Cache and the PS5 "scrubbers" will likely not be a happy moment for some either.

If you want a mouth piece for each company that is what PR is for, as a reviewer you need to be clear on info and data points, otherwise WHAT IS THE POINT?


It's ok, DF are not biased, only me ;-)

The frustrating thing for me is that literally everyone should be rooting for the optimized approach of the PS5 hardware design to allow it to effectively punch above its weight. If an innovation proves useful and performant, its going to lead to more widespread adoption across the board. Everyone benefits long-term.

But sadly, for some its only about scoring points in the here and now.

 

[RoboFu]

lol I mean what else are they going to say?

 

[NXGamer]

How many devs have you spoken to?

Approximately 5

You are both. But the cherry picking on you or them tell us more on the by far bigger bias of poeple doing it.

I am both Biased and NOT do you mean?

What have I cherry picked?

 

[Psajdak]

I see...

So, below 60fps is thing of the past.

 

[martino]

Approximately 5



I am both Biased and NOT do you mean?

What have I cherry picked?

It was not clear.We are all biased at variable level.
You and DF are not at inadmissible ones imo.
Some people on gaf though.....
Ho, and you are not of those cherry picking part of content to build your narrative....

edit : and when it comes to DF i would look more on the nvidia side. this is by far where they get the more sponsored content.
i know what some of you will think but remember my last two gpus are 980ti and 1080ti and i'm still undecided for the next one (but i want amd to deliver(my bias))

 

[Aceofspades]

I 'member when people were saying they were shilling for Xbox. Surely people will be consistent!

Just look at Alex and Richard faces during this segment, it tells you everything about DF.
I will say that again, John and Thomas are more professional and unbiased unlike Rich and Alex. I have been saying this forever.

 

[Inanilmaz]

Is shill the new word for simp?

 

[Faithless83]

Maybe it won't. Regardless I don't think it'll even be a big deal. I have yet to read anything or hear anyone explain the difference in what the PS5 does compared to throttling.

If it's not throttling to control heat, what's the purpose? I'll admit, I don't understand this part.

It's a 2 minute video. Hope it clarifies it.

It's not about heat, the heat was solved already:

Do Sony have enough goodwill to get the cooling/noise solution 'wrong'

Fellow pre-orderers let's fast forward a year or so and we start getting games that are beginning to make full use of the new PS5 and we get that familiar kick in of fans that we are so accustomed to. Do you have enough goodwill to just shake it off and enjoy the new games or will you be kinda...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Xaero Gravity]

You see, AND THIS, is why I do not share a lot of info I get, as unless it suits one side then it is a lie and "bad" news.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't basically

 

[Razvedka]

Which side is not going to be happy?

Also curious.

 

[NXGamer]

It was not clear.We are all biased at variable level.
You and DF are not at inadmissible ones imo.
Some people on gaf though.....
Ho, and you are not of those cherry picking part of content to build your narrative....

edit : and when it comes to DF i would look more on the nvidia side of this. this is by far where they get the more sponsored content.
i know what some of you will think but remember my last two bpu are 980ti and 1080ti and i'm still undecided for the next one (but i want amd to deliver(my bias))

I agree, EVERYONE has bias, I prefer water to any other drink, but I still drink.

I prefer Motorcycles to cars, but I still drive cars also.

I think Sony WWS are at the forefront of game technology and visuals (not the only one) but I love other teams and games equally.

The thing about bias is you have to see past it, mostly it is an emotion. Being a business developer, Architect and Manager over far too many years within the corporate world. You loose this connection and for any scientific analysis you have to remove or see past this "confirmation bias" that can creep in.

Like testing a game performance, test the heavy parts and the light parts and show the balance across all platforms. Where I see this the MOST is in PC benchmarks, I can rarely match up to a major onsite GPU or CPU test and they almost never show the tested section OR even WHAT it actually is.

Is this bias, laziness, lies or all 3?

 

[Xaero Gravity]

I agree, EVERYONE has bias, I prefer water to any other drink, but I still drink.

I prefer Motorcycles to cars, but I still drive cars also.

I think Sony WWS are at the forefront of game technology and visuals (not the only one) but I love other teams and games equally.

I think that's less bias, and more preferences. We all have them, but because so many people these days seem to have this Us vs Them tribalism attitude and attachment towards things, they can't see the difference and thus feel compelled to attack and dismiss any opinion they happen to disagree with.

 

[Faithless83]

The info after AMD share it on the Infinity Cache and the PS5 "scrubbers" will likely not be a happy moment for some either.

This is gonna be fun to watch.