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[Stiflers Mom]

Propose that Microsoft blows PS5 out of the water in year 4. Will it even matter anymore? Xbox needed an early win before this generation is decided.

I concur. Not my argument though.. ; )

 

[Cherrypepsi]

I just had to

 

[jroc74]

What crow?

We all know XSX is more powerful and expect games to look/perform better yet we are seeing games on par or better on PS5.

Don't understand your logic.

Exactly.

Logic is missing in alot of these discussions. A patch to get it on par with PS5...is a win?

Dont ppl realize that the PS5 versions arent struggling vs Series X? Overall, PS5 versions are running great in comparison.

Its gonna be a rough gen for some ppl....

 

[MilkyJoe]

Yes I am a physicist. We are talking clock cycles of 3.5 Ghz here, which is 0.3 nanoseconds.

Here is some light reading to put things in context of your 5 minutes.

These are the numbers every computer engineer should know

In 2010, Jeff Dean from Google gave a wonderful talk at Stanford that made him quite famous. In it, he discussed a few numbers that are relevant to computing systems. Then Peter Norvig published those numbers for the first time on the internet. Time passed, and the numbers changed. Here

www.freecodecamp.org

.

I am not saying that is THE issue, I am saying its not as efficient as the CPU located together on the die. Look up L1 vs L2 latency, only a bit closer on die but 400 % faster is typical.

I fact, the article gives you the latency of a CPU branch prediction issue at 3 nanoseconds, would be worse with split CPU on die. Does not sound allot, but thats > 100 clock cycles....

We dont know what is inefficient in XSX, I am just labelling the key suspects in my opinion, CPU halves and 14 CU shader arrays - I am leaning towards the latter actually but I dont design APUs so ho hum. You can have your opinion, thats fine.

I say you want that to be the issue, but you know in your heart of hearts it's just a software issue, and by that I mean the dev tools, not so much the OS or APIs

 

[michaelius]

Propose that Microsoft blows PS5 out of the water in year 4. Will it even matter anymore? Xbox needed an early win before this generation is decided.

Even if xbox suddenly start showing that 20% TF advantage it won't be blowing PS5 anyway. With dynamic resolution that's like one machine dropping to 1440 and other to 1200 before reconstruction kicks in.

 

[Mr Moose]

Enjoy ya false hope Xbox fans every gen u fall for it .

Also ps5 will get better over time
A trillion doller company still fucked up a launch

They will both improve over time, its just some people seem to think only one will.
They are both great machines (there's the Series S as well, but that's... Whatever).
I am enjoying Tom Warren being wrong and deleting tweets though

 

[Silver Wattle]

why bother making use of the xbox series X bigger GPU when you can just use the PS5 version and allow a game engine with variable resolution do all the work

 

[Tripolygon]

I haven't seen any third party games that actually use those features yet, Dirt 5 does on PC but I haven't seen any confirmation that the XSX version does, so when those features are used we'll see what impact they have.

Xbox version also uses VRS according to the developer.

 

[LivingD3AD]

1. DMC's 60 FPS has been patched.
2. 60hz mode on COD was just a bug. Restart checkpoint and no frame drops.
3. Locked 120 FPS except for 5 seconds on one map.

Saved you $1,500. Thank me later.

And the graphics difference in 120hz for Dirt 5 is quite staggering between PS5 and seriesx

 

[geordiemp]

I say you want that to be the issue, but you know in your heart of hearts it's just a software issue, and by that I mean the dev tools, not so much the OS or APIs

Not really, I made the comments about 2-3 months ago or just after hotchips that the XSX is designed for server efficiency first, hell even MS said its a server deisgn CPU, but my thoughts are more the 14 CU efficiency as there is no reference to compare - the only reference where the SA has been extended is Navi 14 to 12 CU.......and Navi 14 is low end.

If the GPU was a 10 CU per SA design and using the normal scaling and had 6 shader arrays with matching front and back endand used RDNA2 pervasive clock gating, I would 100 % agree with you and such a design would hammer ps5 does not mater what the software.....but its not.

I suspect MS designed the APU correctly for the primary goal, a 4 games running server blade but that will be a story that we will heard in years to come I guess.

However, like everything in life, nothing is simple and it will not be 1 thing.....the current XSX deficiency seen this far will be a mix of 10 or so factors which will be a bit here and a bit there..........and encompass software, api, drivers, hardware design, and architecture choices. Weighting them will only be known by people who run game profiling tools.

 

[John Wick]

In CoD PS5 had some fps drops in a few cinematics or specific spots, but they released recently a patch to address that.
DMCVSE got a patch too, to add the 60fps selector that it missed, and VRR is also coming via an OS patch.
They also just released an ACV patch to address XSX tearing issue.
So well see how the comparisions remain after all the patches that they are releasing. I assume that they will close the lead each console had to basically zero or almost.


It's better in some areas, worse in others. Results doesn't show any important performance difference between consoles, and in many cases performs (slightly) worse than the PS5 one


No, it isn't. 3% more CPU doesn't do a shit and the teraflops difference/having more CUs only affect some GPU tasks while many others GPU tasks will perform better because the GPU is way faster and its memory management is more optimized. On paper there isn't a clear winner regarding which console is more powerful, and real world results show that -other than a bug/bad optimization here or there, VRR still not implemented in PS5 and so on- the results are pretty much the same in both consoles.

Basically they achieved the same horsepower results with different strategies.

It's because MS have got the 12tf narrative embedded into fangirls minds as the only metric that matters in console power. The metrics the PS5 is superior in don't matter.

 

[John Wick]

Digital Foundry was given a complete preview of the Series X and all of its specs, including a physical teardown of the unit, back in March:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

I think it's fair to assume that the hardware has been finalized since at least then?

Nah man! MS are so good they finalised the chip at the end of June 2020. They waited long enough to get all the RDNA 2 goodies. Even though AMD probably finalised the specs at least one year prior

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

And the graphics difference in 120hz for Dirt 5 is quite staggering between PS5 and seriesx

Is this legit? Damn, thats a generational leap right there. Left is PS4 and right is PS5.

 

[wolywood]

It's a compelling conversation. We're seeing that raw power and better specs doesn't necessarily guarantee a better experience. Could be interesting to talk about why that is.

Horizon Zero Dawn PC port vs original PS4 game is a good example of this.

 

[ZywyPL]

And the graphics difference in 120hz for Dirt 5 is quite staggering between PS5 and seriesx

Yeah, I think this game is a prime example that's something's clearly screwed up on Xbox side - as a PC guy, when I see that 3090 or 6900 runs a game on Low and is being outperformed by 3080/6800 with High settings, then it doesn't take more than two brain cells to know something's wrong, and it's certainly not the hardware's fault. But I won't lie, it's so funny to see all the fanboys using it as their ammo, claiming some sort of victories back and forth, like "ha! gotcha!", "look who's laughing now huh?", "you see? told you!", shit's hilarious, but at the same times it exposes how little those guys know about technology, while trying to build some "technically" driven narratives and act like subject matter experts, the mythical "secret sauce" that will somehow magically make a console more capable than it is in reality, "punching above its weight" how they call it, some clowns even claimed that games on the newest NV GPUs will look like on Medium settings compared to PS5 because of how "powerful" its SSD is, claims like that clearly demonstrate who is just full of shit and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[recursive]

You can't keep up because you dont know what you're talking about.

Lol. Your low IQ posts moving the goal line don't intimidate me.

 

[Bogroll]

Before these comparisons, the claim from green team was that SX would be 20-30% faster on avg. sometimes even larger numbers were quoted by the likes of @longdi IIRC.

In comparison, that single digit adv. is indeed minor.

Even blue team said it would be just higher res and some not even that considering the advantages of PS5 elsewhere. Single digit is minor lol Where have you been.

 

[Md Ray]

Even blue team said it would be just higher res and some not even that considering the advantages of PS5 elsewhere. Single digit is minor lol Where have you been.

Higher res on which platform?

Admit it. PS5 is a smartly designed piece of kit. All those chest thumping, 12>10 and sometimes even 9-8 TF RDNA 1 were quoted. Some even claimed there will be an even larger difference between PS5/XSX than Pro vs One X. It all just fell flat.

 

[DonJimbo]

 

[onQ123]

What crow?

We all know XSX is more powerful and expect games to look/perform better yet we are seeing games on par or better on PS5.

Don't understand your logic.

It's not more powerful when it come to rendering it's only more powerful when it come to compute

 

[THE DUCK]

Whole lot of nothing then, why enter threads like these to assert a conclusion that is not relevant to the discussion?

Very relevant, the title of the thread is that the PS5 is outperforming the Series X. It's not, it's putting out a product that to date, is largely the same as the Series X.
It's one thing to say the series X is not delivering exactly as expected, it's completely another to assert that it's being outperformed, when in fact, it's not.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It is tho.

 

[yurinka]

The Xbox One S demonstrates what a difference 3% CPU clock differences can make in a closed console environment. Your attempt to hand wave away differences you don't understand doesn't make those difference go away, and just demonstrates that you're not interested in discussing specifics, you just want to console war. Given that you seem to think that the Xbox Series X's 40% additional GPU parallelization is "the same horse power" shows me you really don't know what you're talking about. Educate, yourself friend.

Both PS5 and XSX have a custom 8-core AMD Zen 2. In PS5 3.5GHz with SMT and 3.6 GHz with SMT in XSX side. In fact this is less than 3% difference, but since in PS5 side is variable and Cerny said in some scenarios they can slightly reduce it this is why I mention 3%. Results in next gen multi games didn't show any difference in CPU heavy scenarios, this is why I sad this different it doesn't add a shit.

Your 40% additional GPU is a fantasy that doesn't appear in the performance results shown by the games. These results say what I say: games perform almost exactly on both console mostly because pros and cons of both consoles in terms of GPU, memory management and I/O basically compensate each other providing very similar results in both consoles, that outside stuff that may end or already has been patched (like XSX tearing or lack of VRR in PS5), there are no important differences that players will notice outside DF-lke videos. Educate yourself.

In fact, I think that even that big details difference in Dirt 5 where XSX looks so awful compared to PS5 will end patched too:

This image shows the biggest difference we saw in PS5 vs XSX. If you want to talk about specifics tell me where that supposed extra 40% advantage on XSX appears in this image. And why every other comparision the games look almost identical and sometimes with a slight advantage for PS5. Maybe it's because having PS5 perks on memory management and I/O in addition to a 22% extra frequency in the GPU also helps.

 

[Hendrick's]

Horizon Zero Dawn PC port vs original PS4 game is a good example of this.

It's almost like the way the game is coded has some effect on the end result. This is revelatory.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Wait, people are still trying to say there is a 40% performance advantage in the XSX GPU?

C’mon man!

 

[Marcus Aurelius]

I just had to

This belongs in the meme thread good sir!

 

[yurinka]

Even if xbox suddenly start showing that 20% TF advantage it won't be blowing PS5 anyway. With dynamic resolution that's like one machine dropping to 1440 and other to 1200 before reconstruction kicks in.

They have 10.3 and 12TF. So the difference in teraflops is +16.5% or -14.2%, not 20%.

Wait, people are still trying to say there is a 40% performance advantage in the XSX GPU?

C’mon man!

Maybe they listened to the 'Power your dreams' quote

 

[Tutomos]

It's known fact that Tom Warren is on Microsoft's payroll.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Very relevant, the title of the thread is that the PS5 is outperforming the Series X. It's not, it's putting out a product that to date, is largely the same as the Series X.
It's one thing to say the series X is not delivering exactly as expected, it's completely another to assert that it's being outperformed, when in fact, it's not.

Who do you think you're convincing with this argument?

 

[ethomaz]

I just had to

That is priceless.

I always had the curiosity to know which is the real dialog in the movie.

 

[THE DUCK]

Who do you think you're convincing with this argument?

A statement of fact doesn't require the audience to agree. (Especially a group that seems to see all one color)

Like this:
Me: The sky is blue
You: No its red

Doesn't invalidate my arguement that you think its red.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Soon Todd will show them TES6 and everyone will eat crow. SOON!

 

[Explosive Zombie]

A statement of fact doesn't require the audience to agree. (Especially a group that seems to see all one color)

Like this:
Me: The sky is blue
You: No its red

Doesn't invalidate my arguement that you think its red.

But you're not stating fact. The PS5 is outperforming the series x you just think the difference is too small to matter but that's not how it works. You're analogy doesn't work what you're actually doing is claiming a team that's up by five points is tied.

 

[geordiemp]

I just had to

I loved the comment every time I close my eyes I see Mark Cerny (and he was talking about Stalin)

Brilliant

 

[nowhat]

I always had the curiosity to know which is the real dialog in the movie.

If you haven't seen it, highly recommended. IMHO it's one of the greatest war movies ever - even if it shows very little actual warfare.

 

[Krisprolls]

PS5 outperforms XSX simply because it's designed better. More hardware customizations like caches, higher clock and a smarter variable frequency model (which ensures max power available is used at any time). Using a faster SSD as a RAM extension too. Better and lower level APIs for a single custom machine vs generic Direct X available on multiple hardware.

A dedicated game machine will always outperform a more standard PC like machine.

Raw gpu power will still ensure XSX doesn't get too far behind by brute forcing though.

 

[OverHeat]

PS5 outperforms XSX simply because it's designed better. More hardware customizations like caches, higher clock and a smarter variable frequency model (which ensures max power available is used at any time). Using a faster SSD as a RAM extension too. Better and lower level APIs for a single custom machine vs generic Direct X available on multiple hardware.

A dedicated game machine will always outperform a more standard PC like machine.

Raw gpu power will still ensure XSX doesn't get too far behind by brute forcing though.

Look at tag...not sure if serious

 

[wachie]

Very relevant, the title of the thread is that the PS5 is outperforming the Series X. It's not, it's putting out a product that to date, is largely the same as the Series X.
It's one thing to say the series X is not delivering exactly as expected, it's completely another to assert that it's being outperformed, when in fact, it's not.

Like I said earlier, you can keep spinning all you want but there is a reason for articles like this. And this is coming from one of the biggest Xbox PR persons in the media, so the concern is definitely there. Microsoft's messaging was that Xbox was THE most powerful console, now it's barely hanging on and in majority of showdowns has slightly inferior performance.

If you want to enter a showdown/comparison thread and conclude "both are good" then honestly, that's not the point. Ofcourse they are both "good" but the showdowns exist to look at the difference between the versions.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Even if xbox suddenly start showing that 20% TF advantage it won't be blowing PS5 anyway. With dynamic resolution that's like one machine dropping to 1440 and other to 1200 before reconstruction kicks in.

True true. All memes aside I think both teams did alright.
But you can't beat Sony with being just as good as them...

 

[QuantumZebra]

Why not 2024?

Just wait until next gen, ok?! Xbox will reign!

That's one of the best memes I've seen out of this gen war. Damn.

 

[Hezekiah]

Wow I actually saw an intelligent response in that Verge article, guess some on there are smarter than some of the experts on here:

This "full RDNA2 support" is just PR rubbish. Microsoft need RDNA2 and DirectX to be fully aligned to best support their PC compatibility. Sony don’t use DirectX and are free to create their own bespoke API’s and not use all the RDNA2 listed features.

For example "Mesh Shaders" technology requires RDNA2 and DirectX 12 Ultimate, and is part of the "full" RDNA2 support. Sony therefore have not got access to this, so they develop the "Geometry Engine" with AMD which is the same thing.

Which is better, RDNA2 Mesh Shaders, or Sony’s Geometry Engine, who knows. One might be more advanced but is a general API, the other might be more optimised for a single device. Is either console "missing" anything? No they are likely not.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Wow I actually saw an intelligent response in that Verge article, guess some on there are smarter than some of the experts on here:

This "full RDNA2 support" is just PR rubbish. Microsoft need RDNA2 and DirectX to be fully aligned to best support their PC compatibility. Sony don’t use DirectX and are free to create their own bespoke API’s and not use all the RDNA2 listed features.

For example "Mesh Shaders" technology requires RDNA2 and DirectX 12 Ultimate, and is part of the "full" RDNA2 support. Sony therefore have not got access to this, so they develop the "Geometry Engine" with AMD which is the same thing.

Which is better, RDNA2 Mesh Shaders, or Sony’s Geometry Engine, who knows. One might be more advanced but is a general API, the other might be more optimised for a single device. Is either console "missing" anything? No they are likely not.

Leviathan Gamer has some pretty interesting tweets on the differences between primitive shaders and mesh shaders.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

Wow I actually saw an intelligent response in that Verge article, guess some on there are smarter than some of the experts on here:

This "full RDNA2 support" is just PR rubbish. Microsoft need RDNA2 and DirectX to be fully aligned to best support their PC compatibility. Sony don’t use DirectX and are free to create their own bespoke API’s and not use all the RDNA2 listed features.

For example "Mesh Shaders" technology requires RDNA2 and DirectX 12 Ultimate, and is part of the "full" RDNA2 support. Sony therefore have not got access to this, so they develop the "Geometry Engine" with AMD which is the same thing.

Which is better, RDNA2 Mesh Shaders, or Sony’s Geometry Engine, who knows. One might be more advanced but is a general API, the other might be more optimised for a single device. Is either console "missing" anything? No they are likely not.

Not to mention Series X doesn't have infinity cache or fine grain clock gating. Not exactly "full" RDNA 2 now is it? I'm kidding but also not.

 

[Edgelord79]

I really hope xbox team can get the xbox series x to full potential as I absolutely love the triggered folk on here of anything xbox.

Plus if/when I do pick up both next generation consoles the series x will be better for any game pass games I am not interested in buying on my pc that are also not part of pc game pass.

It's disappointing when fandom verges on delusion and hysteria. I think you have more PS5 fans that do this solely because it has a much larger playerbase. If the Xbox had a larger playerbase we'd be seeing the same thing from that side.

Corporate simping is very distasteful on either side though.

 

[THE DUCK]

Like I said earlier, you can keep spinning all you want but there is a reason for articles like this. And this is coming from one of the biggest Xbox PR persons in the media, so the concern is definitely there. Microsoft's messaging was that Xbox was THE most powerful console, now it's barely hanging on and in majority of showdowns has slightly inferior performance.

If you want to enter a showdown/comparison thread and conclude "both are good" then honestly, that's not the point. Ofcourse they are both "good" but the showdowns exist to look at the difference between the versions.

I can agree with this to a point, it's when its shaded like the series x is now vastly inferior for some reason that I start to stand up for it.
You can see from some of the more rabid here that this has validated thier ps5 purchase (and self esteem) and they will run around now for the next 5 years posting how the ps5 decimates the series x based on a few launch games that were basically tied.

 

[isoRhythm]

Hilarious, I would have never thought the PS5 would be this close to the xboxx or even outperforming it. But here we are, PS5 more then capable of giving the xbox a tough fight. It's really really evident now that sony just has some very very clever and smart system designers. Looking forward to owning one of these sexy white beasts myself.

So in 2021 if Series X doesn’t outperform PS5 in multiplatform titles by 20% then what?

Are you not getting the pattern?
Wait till 2022
Wait till 2023
2024 -> Hype Xbox Series L mid gen upgrade with no games
Wait till E3 2025 for games

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I can agree with this to a point, it's when its shaded like the series x is now vastly inferior for some reason that I start to stand up for it.
You can see from some of the more rabid here that this has validated thier ps5 purchase (and self esteem) and they will run around now for the next 5 years posting how the ps5 decimates the series x based on a few launch games that were basically tied.

Dude I don't think you get the idea. Most of us who were excited for the PlayStation 5 assumed it would do multiplats worse, we believed the marketing and the BS from people on this forum but were still excited for the PS5 because of the exclusives and we expected the difference to be similar to the difference between PS4 pro and the one x which wasn't big enough to matter. So for it to turn out the world's most powerful console can't actually outperform the PS5 is just hysterical for some of us. Like there's literally no good argument for buying it.

 

[oldergamer]

Both PS5 and XSX have a custom 8-core AMD Zen 2. In PS5 3.5GHz with SMT and 3.6 GHz with SMT in XSX side. In fact this is less than 3% difference, but since in PS5 side is variable and Cerny said in some scenarios they can slightly reduce it this is why I mention 3%. Results in next gen multi games didn't show any difference in CPU heavy scenarios, this is why I sad this different it doesn't add a shit.

Your 40% additional GPU is a fantasy that doesn't appear in the performance results shown by the games. These results say what I say: games perform almost exactly on both console mostly because pros and cons of both consoles in terms of GPU, memory management and I/O basically compensate each other providing very similar results in both consoles, that outside stuff that may end or already has been patched (like XSX tearing or lack of VRR in PS5), there are no important differences that players will notice outside DF-lke videos. Educate yourself.

In fact, I think that even that big details difference in Dirt 5 where XSX looks so awful compared to PS5 will end patched too:

This image shows the biggest difference we saw in PS5 vs XSX. If you want to talk about specifics tell me where that supposed extra 40% advantage on XSX appears in this image. And why every other comparision the games look almost identical and sometimes with a slight advantage for PS5. Maybe it's because having PS5 perks on memory management and I/O in addition to a 22% extra frequency in the GPU also helps.

Dude, you know they (the developer) said that was a LOD bug that would be fixed in an upcoming patch? Why are you talking about it like its an advantage?

 

[bentanchorbolt]

Dude, you know they (the developer) said that was a LOD bug that would be fixed in an upcoming patch? Why are you talking about it like its an advantage?

There is no reason to engage with people who take joy in console tribalism. Fanboys on either side are just looking for excuses to crap on the “enemy” right now.

 

[Sgt.Asher]

I believe this started during the end of xbox 360. Microsoft fucked their early lead by focusing on the kinect and became known as the halo, forza, gears console. Meanwhile sony leveraged their many developers, and ended with the very strong Last of Us.
Microsoft failed to market and create a strong ip base going into the xbox one, and that stuck with them.