Support NeoGAF

[Brad Grenz]

If the PS3 had launched with dev tools just as good as the 360's, it still would have been a bigger pain to program because the underlying hardware was more complicated. If MS is shipping the Durango with more complicated underlying hardware than Orbis, the quality of the dev tools won't necessarily make up for that fact, especially when Sony has reached near parity (reportedly) with the tools for their last two platforms.

Trying to keep 8 cores fed alone, versus 4 on Orbis alone would pose certain challenges, but if they're also adding multiple, additional (programmable?) exotic hardware blocks to the system that is an additional challenge. If all that' automated, I might question the utility or desirability of what they add, and if they're highly flexible the burden will be on the programmers, which makes me wonder if they wouldn't simply prefer a 50% more powerful GPU.

 

[HiiiLife]

I understand these are all rumors, but could someone tell me which console seems "stronger"?

I don't understand all this technical talk.

 

[charsace]

You never know. Everyone makes mistakes.

If the PS3 had launched with dev tools just as good as the 360's, it still would have been a bigger pain to program because the underlying hardware was more complicated. If MS is shipping the Durango with more complicated underlying hardware than Orbis, the quality of the dev tools won't necessarily make up for that fact, especially when Sony has reached near parity (reportedly) with the tools for their last two platforms.

Trying to keep 8 cores fed alone, versus 4 on Orbis alone would pose certain challenges, but if they're also adding multiple, additional (programmable?) exotic hardware blocks to the system that is an additional challenge. If all that' automated, I might question the utility or desirability of what they add, and if they're highly flexible the burden will be on the programmers, which makes me wonder if they wouldn't simply prefer a 50% more powerful GPU.

You both should do yourselves a favor and go to msdn.microsoft.com and look around. MS will make developing on their system as easy as possible. And there are a lot of ways to tackle multi threaded development that I doubt devs will have a hard time.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I understand these are all rumors, but could someone tell me which console seems "stronger"?

I don't understand all this technical talk.

Both are fairly equal. There is no "stronger" console this gen IMO. It's literally up to the devs how they use the consoles and resources provided to them. I expect multiplatform games to look the same this time around.

 

[Brad Grenz]

You both should do yourselves a favor and go to msdn.microsoft.com and look around. MS will make developing on their system as easy as possible. And there are a lot of ways to tackle multi threaded development that I doubt devs will have a hard time.

Oh, so not only are the co-processors magical, but the dev tools, too? Having good dev tools doesn't mean they do all the programming for you.

 

[Reiko]

Oh, so not only are the co-processors magical, but the dev tools, too? Having good dev tools doesn't mean they do all the programming for you.

The Durango will be just as magical as the Orbis.

 

[Tagg9]

I understand these are all rumors, but could someone tell me which console seems "stronger"?

I don't understand all this technical talk.

Based on the rumors, they are both stronger in different areas. There doesn't appear to be a single console that can be definitely called "more powerful" at this point in time.

 

[aegies]

You never know. Everyone makes mistakes.

If the PS3 had launched with dev tools just as good as the 360's, it still would have been a bigger pain to program because the underlying hardware was more complicated. If MS is shipping the Durango with more complicated underlying hardware than Orbis, the quality of the dev tools won't necessarily make up for that fact, especially when Sony has reached near parity (reportedly) with the tools for their last two platforms.

Trying to keep 8 cores fed alone, versus 4 on Orbis alone would pose certain challenges, but if they're also adding multiple, additional (programmable?) exotic hardware blocks to the system that is an additional challenge. If all that' automated, I might question the utility or desirability of what they add, and if they're highly flexible the burden will be on the programmers, which makes me wonder if they wouldn't simply prefer a 50% more powerful GPU.

Devs already have the tools and documentation, and are by numerous reports pretty stoked about it.

Everyone makes mistakes? I guess? But the PS3 was the third console in a row with poor documentation from Sony, so it wasn't exactly a surprise. They've set a precedent. The 360 was easier to develop for than the Xbox, which was reportedly very easy to develop for. I don't see them fucking it up on the third try, to the point where devkits have twice as much RAM as retail boxes. It took six years for them to do that with the 360.

 

[TurkishDLite]

I cant wait till E3

 

[Reiko]

Based on the rumors, they are both stronger in different areas. There doesn't appear to be a single console that can be definitely called "more powerful" at this point in time.

Some are looking for a PS2 and Xbox situation. It's just not happening.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Given 3rd party games are Xboxes bread and butter, does anyone really think MS isn't building a Dev friendly console? If Durango was terrible to develop for, especially PS3 bad, there would already be rumblings.

 

[HiiiLife]

Both are fairly equal. There is no "stronger" console this gen IMO. It's literally up to the devs how they use the consoles and resources provided to them. I expect multiplatform games to look the same this time around.

Based on the rumors, they are both stronger in different areas. There doesn't appear to be a single console that can be definitely called "more powerful" at this point in time.

Appreciate the feedback. You too, Reiko. I missed your reply in the other thread. I will be purchasing both consoles regardless. I just wanted to make a ND/Bama comparison for my friends so they can understand as well. Haha.

 

[JohnDonut]

You never know. Everyone makes mistakes.

Except me

 

[Brad Grenz]

Devs already have the tools and documentation, and are by numerous reports pretty stoked about it.

Which tells us precisely nothing about Durango's merits relative to anything else. Post spec reveal, I hope the first question you ask in an interview with a 3rd party Durango programmer is whether they would have preferred a bigger GPU to the "pseudo GPU", assuming it exists.

 

[Agent Icebeezy]

I forget where I read it, but Microsoft wants to get the to the point for developers so that they can max out the console on day one by designing the hardware with the software to reach perfect synergy.

 

[Monumental]

I forget where I read it, but Microsoft wants to get the to the point for developers so that they can max out the console on day one by designing the hardware with the software to reach perfect synergy.

Microsoft has ALWAYS wanted that. It's why Microsoft's platforms are historically always the easiest to develop for.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Appreciate the feedback. You too, Reiko. I missed your reply in the other thread. I will be purchasing both consoles regardless. I just wanted to make a ND/Bama comparison for my friends so they can understand as well. Haha.

In terms of RAM, Orbis is stronger. 4GB of GDDR5 is a good size. It's faster so it'll compensate for having less numbers attached to it. 8GB of DDR3 is also amazing. You can throw anything at it and it'll work, but it is slower than GDDR5. This will truly be a fun test. 8GB of DDR3 means that OS will run with no trouble. Both consoles will have to make a sacrifice on how much will they dedicate to OS.

In terms of processor, Orbis has higher clock but less cores. Both have their own sets of advantage and disadvantage, similar to that seen in RAM.

Both are using AMD's 8000 series for GPU so expect no difference there. It really comes down to the final specs, E3 hype, dev testimonial, physical comparison and test by websites, and comparing multiplatform games to see which one is better.

My advice? Three things:

1. See which console you have the most friends in (or expect most friends in);
2. See which console's features, OS and games attracts you the most;
3. See which console's services, pricing and hardware bundles attract you the most.

TL;DR: Don't buy the console for the hardware, but the software. The game has changed and software is leading it.

 

[XtremeXpider]

In terms of RAM, Orbis is stronger. 4GB of GDDR5 is a good size. It's faster so it'll compensate for having less numbers attached to it. 8GB of DDR3 is also amazing. You can throw anything at it and it'll work, but it is slower than GDDR5. This will truly be a fun test. 8GB of DDR3 means that OS will run with no trouble. Both consoles will have to make a sacrifice on how much will they dedicate to OS.

In terms of processor, Orbis has higher clock but less cores. Both have their own sets of advantage and disadvantage, similar to that seen in RAM.

Both are using AMD's 8000 series for GPU so expect no difference there. It really comes down to the final specs, E3 hype, dev testimonial, physical comparison and test by websites, and comparing multiplatform games to see which one is better.

My advice? Three things:

1. See which console you have the most friends in (or expect most friends in);
2. See which console's features, OS and games attracts you the most;
3. See which console's services, pricing and hardware bundles attract you the most.

TL;DR: Don't buy the console for the hardware, but the software. The game has changed and software is leading it.

It will depend how the ram is used. Xbox 360 ram is GDDR3, slower than XDR (PS3 vram), but Xenos has eDRAM.

DDR3 is slow as vram, but maybe 8GB DDR3 + eDRAM/eSRAM can work.

 

[Mindlog]

Appreciate the feedback. You too, Reiko. I missed your reply in the other thread. I will be purchasing both consoles regardless. I just wanted to make a ND/Bama comparison for my friends so they can understand as well. Haha.

As of now it's USC/Texas '06.

 

[TheOddOne]

All of this talk about poor developer tools actually sounds like people want it to be bad, instead of actually looking at the actual long standing history.

 

[charsace]

Oh, so not only are the co-processors magical, but the dev tools, too? Having good dev tools doesn't mean they do all the programming for you.

Never said anything of the sort. They will make life easier though. And MS's development documentation is usually top notch. And MS has given away free tools like XACT and PIX for hobbyist developers so I would imagine the pro devs are getting even better tools, documentation, tech support, etc. from them. If that's magic I'll take it.

Multithreaded programing isn't as hard as you are trying to make it sound. A lot of the problems that people had with the PS2 and PS3 is that Sony didn't give proper support to the devs. A lot of the headaches wouldn't have been headaches if sony had provided proper tools and support.

 

[Reiko]

Never said anything of the sort. They will make life easier though. And MS's development documentation is usually top notch. And MS has given away free tools like XACT and PIX for hobbyist developers so I would imagine the pro devs are getting even better tools, documentation, tech support, etc. from them. If that's magic I'll take it.

Multithreaded programing isn't as hard as you are trying to make it sound. A lot of the problems that people had with the PS2 and PS3 is that Sony didn't give proper support to the devs. A lot of the headaches wouldn't have been headaches if sony had provided proper tools and support.

Yep. That same mistake happened with the Sega Saturn.

SEGA ramified that mistake with the easy to develop for Dreamcast.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Never said anything of the sort. They will make life easier though. And MS's development documentation is usually top notch. And MS has given away free tools like XACT and PIX for hobbyist developers so I would imagine the pro devs are getting even better tools, documentation, tech support, etc. from them. If that's magic I'll take it.

Multithreaded programing isn't as hard as you are trying to make it sound. A lot of the problems that people had with the PS2 and PS3 is that Sony didn't give proper support to the devs. A lot of the headaches wouldn't have been headaches if sony had provided proper tools and support.

And developers have had 7 years to learn multithreaded/multicore programming xD

 

[Gadfly]

What about Bluray?

If it has BR, I hope they provide a cheper version without it. I don't want it and I don't want to pay for it. If some people want it, let them pay for it. (maybe it should support external USB 3 BR player?)

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

If it has BR, I hope they provide a cheper version without it. I don't want it and I don't want to pay for it. If some people want it, let them pay for it. (maybe it should support external USB 3 BR player?)

So you want next-gen games to have shitty compression video and audio because their disc format can't handle bigger games? Gotcha... I guess it's just Xbox 540 instead.

 

[XtremeXpider]

If it has BR, I hope they provide a cheper version without it. I don't want it and I don't want to pay for it. If some people want it, let them pay for it. (maybe it should support external USB 3 BR player?)

A "cheaper" version without a BR drive mean a "only DLC" version. How will you load the games without a BR drive?

 

[cartman414]

What manner of 8 core processor is it going to be? Barely any games out there make use or scale beyond 4.

 

[dragonelite]

Never said anything of the sort. They will make life easier though. And MS's development documentation is usually top notch. And MS has given away free tools like XACT and PIX for hobbyist developers so I would imagine the pro devs are getting even better tools, documentation, tech support, etc. from them. If that's magic I'll take it.

Multithreaded programing isn't as hard as you are trying to make it sound. A lot of the problems that people had with the PS2 and PS3 is that Sony didn't give proper support to the devs. A lot of the headaches wouldn't have been headaches if sony had provided proper tools and support.

Multithreading is a mandatory course now where im studying.
I believe 10 years back it was a minor course.
And knowing microsoft they will probably abstract away special hardware kinda like how OpenCL,DirectCompute and C++ AMP do for GPGPU.

 

[JohnDonut]

What manner of 8 core processor is it going to be? Barely any games out there make use or scale beyond 4.

They do on the consoles, but when they port games to the PC they don't even bother and just bind everything to one core. That's half the reason they run like fucking garbage.

 

[BlockheadBrown]

Xbox employee hinting that Smartglass/Wii U type functionality is going to be a big deal for 720?
Seattle Times Tech writer on video game talk at CES

Most of the article is about how 4K will likely be a major focus for PS4 but at the end was this blurb.

Extremely good point! I'm just going to think this through a bit:

The linked article mentions how a Microsoft rep was only interested in talking about a new networking spec that would aid in streaming data to multiple systems. It's no secret that Microsoft is very interested in including something that could dish out media to several devices. SmartGlass already allows users to control/interface with their Xbox using "any" tablet/phone/whatever. There's been a rumored Trojan Horse Feature for the next Xbox that no one has talked about. The next Xbox is rumored to have as much as 8GB of ram and a mult-threaded, multi-core processor. I'm thinking that if the next Xbox can stream media, it may also be able to stream games. Should Microsoft allow a controller to connect to tablets/phones via Bluetooth, you could easily have a situation where the Xbox could stream games to maybe up to 4 peripherals (that people already have - a marketing angle for SmartGlass). This allows each user their own individual gaming experience while playing multi-player or convcieveably different games within the same household. In a way, this could combat Nintendo's Wii U and Sony's Playstation/Vita second screen gaming devices as with a desirable, useful feature that would have minimal additional cost to the consumer. Think of it. You could have an impromptu LAN party anywhere in a very short period of time, with an easy setup. No need for people to vie for the Wii U Gamepad. Each player could essentially have their own personalized screen streaming from the new Xbox. Want to play a game without hogging the television? It's possible through this proposed idea. That's a marketing bullet-point for the Wii U that I'm sure Microsoft would love to capitalize on. It's a way out there idea, but I think it's feasible.

Thoughts?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I believe that Windows 8 devices will be compatible with Durango in very convenient ways.

 

[mrklaw]

I thought current tools for PS3 and vita were pretty good?

 

[Mascot]

The rumored specs for Durango and Orbis might be incredibly exciting, but it's an absolute truth that a little part of me will die every time I see a sub-60fps game running on them.

 

[Brad Grenz]

Multithreaded programing isn't as hard as you are trying to make it sound. A lot of the problems that people had with the PS2 and PS3 is that Sony didn't give proper support to the devs. A lot of the headaches wouldn't have been headaches if sony had provided proper tools and support.

I'm not trying to make multithreaded development sound hard. I'm suggesting that having to develop for a many core processor AND program additional, heterogeneous cores of varying types (which we are being told may be necessary to get good performance on the system), could be more complicated and less straight forward than Orbis development, no matter how good Microsoft's tools and documentation are.

 

[ekim]

Off Tv play on my iPad would be pretty awesome and a huge selling point. But I don't think that will work with the wifi latency

 

[cartman414]

They do on the consoles, but when they port games to the PC they don't even bother and just bind everything to one core. That's half the reason they run like fucking garbage.

With more than 4 cores?

 

[ekim]

Oh, so not only are the co-processors magical, but the dev tools, too? Having good dev tools doesn't mean they do all the programming for you.

Auto threading compilers are on their way.

 

[iceatcs]

I thought current tools for PS3 and vita were pretty good?

Shhhhhh. Let's them

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Trying to keep 8 cores fed alone, versus 4 on Orbis alone would pose certain challenges, but if they're also adding multiple, additional (programmable?) exotic hardware blocks to the system that is an additional challenge. If all that' automated, I might question the utility or desirability of what they add, and if they're highly flexible the burden will be on the programmers, which makes me wonder if they wouldn't simply prefer a 50% more powerful GPU.

More cores doesn't necessarily mean more complicated architecture for programmers to deal with. The number of cores was never the Cell's problem, it was the underlying heterogeneous architecture with a lacking memory subsystem that made keeping all the cores running without hitches a challenge. More hardware threads are welcome, and if Durango really puts such emphasis on seamless multitasking as the rumors suggest, a single application won't even have access to all those resources at once.

As for additional specialized hardware, it depends on what it is and how it's implemented. Xbox 360 also has some custom features not usually found in the PC world (eDRAM being the most obvious example; it also sports hardware tesselation, which was not common in desktop GPUs at the time), so that doesn't necessarily pose an obstacle either.

It will depend how the ram is used. Xbox 360 ram is GDDR3, slower than XDR (PS3 vram), but Xenos has eDRAM.

DDR3 is slow as vram, but maybe 8GB DDR3 + eDRAM/eSRAM can work.

Indeed. Slower RAM has not been a problem for Xbox 360 because of the clever architecture. In fact, it ended up being a better and more flexible solution.

 

[darkistheway]

I'm thinking that if the next Xbox can stream media, it may also be able to stream games. Should Microsoft allow a controller to connect to tablets/phones via Bluetooth, you could easily have a situation where the Xbox could stream games to maybe up to 4 peripherals (that people already have - a marketing angle for SmartGlass). This allows each user their own individual gaming experience while playing multi-player or convcieveably different games within the same household.

I think the amount of processing power required to stream a HD game of the complexity these consoles are going to have to 4 different peripherals with varying hardware and OSes while also accounting for the input lag between bluetooth controller, said peripherals and console, is far beyond the rumored specifications.

Expect it to function like Smartglass - just smoother and quicker.

 

[MrBud360]

I don't care about power, i want Virtual Reality!!!

 

[ekim]

Just thinking - what amount of esRAM would be needed for a huge performance boost?

 

[DieH@rd]

Just thinking - what amount of esRAM would be needed for a huge performance boost?

If they are indeed using DDR3 as main ram... as much as possible.

 

[Xanadu]

cant wait for another one of these awful videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcT2swHHEUI

 

[derFeef]

cant wait for another one of these awful videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcT2swHHEUI

The obsession of progression.

 

[gaming_noob]

Shhhhhh. Let's them

Who said PS3/vita dev kits aren't currently "good" to use? Point them out brah. Don't just pop in from time to time with these types of posts.

From what I'm seeing it's Brad Grenz arguing Durango will not be as easy to program for compared to Orbis, based out of thin air.

 

[NemesisPrime]

I understand these are all rumors, but could someone tell me which console seems "stronger"?

I don't understand all this technical talk.

Probably they will be fairly equal. Next gen will not be about raw power, it will be about software.

MS probably will have the edge in that area... but time will tell. Too early.

What manner of 8 core processor is it going to be? Barely any games out there make use or scale beyond 4.

Compilers do a lot of the work now for you. MS has invested heavily in this so I expect very good optimizations out of the box for devs.

 

[iceatcs]

Who said PS3/vita dev kits aren't currently "good" to use? Point them out brah. Don't just pop in from time to time with these types of posts.

From what I'm seeing it's Brad Grenz arguing Durango will not be as easy to program for compared to Orbis, based out of thin air.

Are you for real? There are numbers of posts about how bad Sony provide to devs. Fact of this truth or not is doesn't matter.
Crazy assume by from Brad. No one know that yet.

 

[Reiko]

Are you for real? There are numbers of posts about how bad Sony provide to devs. Fact of this truth or not is doesn't matter.
Crazy assume by from Brad. No one know that yet.

I know Vita is excellent with tools, but PS3 DID have crappy documentation at first. Hence the first wave of substandard ports.

 

[gaming_noob]

Are you for real? There are numbers of posts about how bad Sony provide to devs. Fact of this truth or not is doesn't matter.

In this thread? Where? All I see are people commenting on how good the MS tools have been and how they believe it will transition to next gen. That does not translate to PS3/Vita tools = bad.