• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Gunsmiths 3D-Print 30 Round MAGAZINES To Thwart Proposed Gun Laws

Status
Not open for further replies.

CrankyJay

Banned
3dprintedmag.jpg


Five months ago, the group of homemade gun enthusiasts known as Defense Distributed set out to create a lethal firearm that could be downloaded and 3D-printed entirely from scratch, circumventing all gun control laws. But as new gun bills have been proposed in the wake of recent shootings, creating a bootleg weapon with digital pieces may soon be far easier: As simple as printing a spring-loaded plastic box.

Over the past weekend, Defense Distributed successfully 3D-printed and tested an ammunition magazine for an AR semi-automatic rifle, loading and firing 86 rounds from the 30-round clip.

That homemade chunk of curved plastic holds special significance: Between 1994 and 2004, so-called “high capacity magazines” capable of holding more than 10 bullets were banned from sale. And a new gun control bill proposed by California Senator Diane Feinstein would ban those larger ammo clips again. President Obama has also voiced support for the magazine restrictions.

But Defense Distributed founder Cody Wilson says he hopes the group’s recent work demonstrates the futility of that proposed ban in the age of cheap 3D printing.


“We want to preempt Feinstein, to eat their lunch,” says Wilson. “This isn’t 1994. The Internet happened since the last assault weapons ban. This is a fledgling tech, but look what we’re able to do. We printed that magazine out.”

Defense Distributed uploaded its blueprint for the 3D-printable magazine to its website, Defcad.org, which aims to collect designs for gun components, many of which have been removed from other websites. In just the last six days, according to Wilson, 20,000 files have been downloaded from Defcad, including more than 2,200 downloads of files for printing the three pieces that are assembled to create the magazine.

“The liberty crowd loves it,” says Wilson.

The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence does not. “High capacity magazines are part of the weapons of choice of mass murderers,” says the group’s executive director Josh Horwitz. The larger-sized ammo clips were used, for instance, by rogue Army Major Nidal Hasan and the Tucson, Arizona shootings that killed six people and wounded Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. Horwitz points out that Tucson shooter Jared Loughner was tackled while attempting to reload a new magazine into his Glock handgun. And police say that Newtown, Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza may have allowed some of his victims to escape while he reloaded his smaller clips.

“The more opportunities to stop a mass shooter, the better,” says Horwitz. “There’s absolutely no justification for 30, 50 or 100 round magazines. And there’s a very good public health reason to get rid of them.”

Defense Distributed’s Wilson calls those arguments a “pernicious ideological mechanism. This isn’t a matter of public safety,” he says, so much as a matter of state control versus individual freedoms. “If [a firearm technology] is used by law enforcement or military, you can bet they say it shouldn’t be used by you,” he adds.

Wilson argues that the high capacity magazine ban wouldn’t just be wrong, but also impossible to enforce, as his project aims to show. Even if Defense Distributed’s original goal of printing a gun from scratch remains out of reach, the restrictions on magazine could be far more easily bypassed, he says. “[Lawmakers] are taking a giant step backward, and it makes everything we’ve talked about more practical,” says Wilson. “There’s more opportunity to demonstate the usefulness, the consequences of our project. I can already print this magazine and show that prohibition has run up against a problem.”

Defense Distributed has already drummed up plenty of controversy: It’s been banned from the fundraising website Indiegogo, had its rented printer seized by the 3D-printing firm Stratasys, and been name-checked by Congressman Steve Israel in a speech calling for a renewal of the Undetectable Firearms Act.

After the group released YouTube videos of tests of 3D-printed lower receivers for AR-15 rifles, the popular 3D-printing community website Thingiverse began purging gun designs. Defense Distributed followed up by creating its own site for the censored designs at Defcad.org.

But the group has so far held off on attempting to print an entire gun while it waits for a legal license to manufacture guns from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. In the mean time, it’s been busy creating and refining its firearm components. The magazine, for instance, failed after three to five rounds in the group’s first test but worked reliably in subsequent tests.

In a recent blog post, Wilson posted a photo (at right) of dozens of high capacity clips arranged in a CAD file, ready for printing.

“Here’s something to keep the prohibitionists up,” he added.

Here’s a video of Defense Distributed’s latest testing. The clip begins with a dry question from Wilson: “How’s that national conversation going?” a reference to Democratic House majority leader Nancy Pelosi’s call for a “national conversation” about gun control following the December massacre of schoolchildren in Newtown, Connecticut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q10Jz2qIog8

Source: Forbes
 

alcide

Banned
[sarcasm]This is will be useful ... maybe next time they'll get more than just one class ...[/sarcasm]

SMFH ...
 

antonz

Member
Good Politicians need to learn to react accordingly not do stupid over the top knee jerk reactions.

Look at NY for a good example of over reaction. New law will make it easier for the state to deem someone a threat to themselves or others and force mental institution on them. Government does not need and should not have such power.

This is after all supposed to be about limiting the access of guns to the mentally unfit not throwing the mentally unfit in jail. Considering how Cuomo views gun owners as a danger to others and themselves wonder how long it will be before Gun owners get thrown in jail since he is a strong advocate of confiscation.
 

Mully

Member
Good Politicians need to learn to react accordingly not do stupid over the top knee jerk reactions.

Look at NY for a good example of over reaction. New law will make it easier for the state to deem someone a threat to themselves or others and force mental institution on them. Government does not need and should not have such power.

This is after all supposed to be about limiting the access of guns to the mentally unfit not throwing the mentally unfit in jail. Considering how Cuomo views gun owners as a danger to others and themselves wonder how long it will be before Gun owners get thrown in jail since he is a strong advocate of confiscation.

This post sounds oddly similar to the Alex Jones story released just hours ago....

Is New York Preparing to Put Gun Owners in Mental Hospitals?

I wonder what you've been reading.
 
So, the law would be that you can't buy it... but if you made your own it wouldn't be buying it...and they won't ban OWNING it because the idea of reclaiming anything rom armed gun owners isn't going to work?
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
Seems like they just need to include a gun components database in the 3d printer's hardware that blocks all attempts to manufacture guns.
 

antonz

Member
This post sounds oddly similar to the Alex Jones story released just hours ago....

Is New York Preparing to Put Gun Owners in Mental Hospitals?

I wonder what you've been reading.

Actually haven't seen that article but its easy enough to draw a conclusion when a "Comprehensive gun bill" spends more time about making it easier for the state to commit people than actually you know talking about guns. We are talking about politicians who are and have advocated for straight up confiscation of guns from gun owners.
 

NH Apache

Banned
Seems like they just need to include a gun components database in the 3d printer's hardware that blocks all attempts to manufacture guns.

Except anybody can make a printer from scratch.

Also, there's a conversation to be had about a free and open internet or one that blocks drawing files for weapons, porn, etc.
 

Mully

Member
Actually haven't seen that article but its easy enough to draw a conclusion when a "Comprehensive gun bill" spends more time about making it easier for the state to commit people than actually you know talking about guns. We are talking about politicians who are and have advocated for straight up confiscation of guns from gun owners.

This has nothing to do with printing STANAG magazines though. Most politcians aren't looking to ban and confiscate all weapons. They're looking to reinstate the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and eliminate loopholes such as the Exto Facto loophole which would be applicable for 3D printing rifles.
 

Cyan

Banned
Actually haven't seen that article but its easy enough to draw a conclusion when a "Comprehensive gun bill" spends more time about making it easier for the state to commit people than actually you know talking about guns. We are talking about politicians who are and have advocated for straight up confiscation of guns from gun owners.

Well, a lot of people have advocated in favor of addressing the broader problem of mental health rather than trying to take guns off the street. That might be a part of why that's in the bill.

Let's find a few examples of people advocating this:

Mental Health needs to be totally revamped in this country. The ill are greatly marginalized by society and stigmatized.

Mental Health is automatically equated to the loony bin and straight jackets so its no wonder people avoid anything to do with mental health assistance.

1. Improved Mental health checks for potential gun owners.
2. If you share a household with someone mentally ill then there is no guns allowed in the household.

3. Regulation regarding how guns are kept in households. No leaving them sitting in a drawer etc. Guns should be kept in a locked container that doesn't make it impossible to defend oneself but prevents easy access to children, thieves etc. Owners who fail to properly store their weapons are liable for any crimes committed with their weapons.

You deal with mental health and the cases of violence would drop significantly. The same trend exists in all of these slaughters. The Gunman had diagnosed mental conditions and people even waved red flags and they were not being properly treated.

America when it comes to mental health is shitty and people don't care that it is. Its easier to draw lines in the sand and blame inanimate objects than to accept as a society we are failures in certain regards.

Mental Health in America is directly linked to the idea of straight jackets, loony bins and every other negative association people can come up with. You mention you have a disorder and are taking medication for it and suddenly your that oddball that needs to be avoided because they are crazy afterall

And that's why there are common sense reforms that can be done that both sides of the aisle will agree upon. The issue is instead of going for those common sense reforms people decide to try and push beyond and then stalemate the whole thing.

1.Mental Health checks to be undertaken when deciding to purchase with the ability to get a 2nd opinion.
2. Policy regarding gun storage in the home with incentives for households to install gun safes or something similar.
3. Gunshow loopholes closed.
4. Classes to teach responsible gun ownership
5. Make Gun licenses like Drivers License and require recertification every 5-10 years including new mental health checks upon recertifying.
6. Strict policies for ownership of a weapon if you live with others who are in fact mentally unstable to even potential blockage of ownership
 

u mad

Neo Member
Don't you mean standard capacity, not "high capacity?" 30 round magazines are the original magazines that come with AKs, original m16s came with 20 round or 30 magazines, G17s come with 17 round magazines, etc. If anything, 10 round magazines are "low capacity" magazines. And a fairly recent trend (given the historical backdrop of gun ownership in the USA).
 

antonz

Member
Well, a lot of people have advocated in favor of addressing the broader problem of mental health rather than trying to take guns off the street. That might be a part of why that's in the bill.

Let's find a few examples of people advocating this:

There is a difference between addressing a failing mental health situation in this country and making it so the state can deem you a threat and lock you up easier. In fact this does nothing to address mental health in the ways that need to be.
 
Don't you mean standard capacity, not "high capacity?" 30 round magazines are the original magazines that come with AKs, original m16s came with 20 round magazines, G17s come with 17 round magazines, etc. If anything, 10 round magazines are "low capacity" magazines. And a fairly recent trend (given the historical backdrop of gun ownership in the USA).

That's correct. 30 is the standard size for AKs and AR-15s and I'm sure a few others. I consider "high-capacity" to be those 100 round drums that can be attached, etc. But I'm not a legislator.
 

antonz

Member
Those guns fuckheads are gonna get 3d printers regulated..

Its going to happen no matter what be it because people start crafting replacement engine parts or whatever. Anything that has a market will fight tooth and nail to protect that market from 3d printers.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Why do you need clips that large? In what practical situation do you see yourself needing to unload that many bullets that quickly? Hunting? Home defense?
 

u mad

Neo Member
Why do you need clips that large? In what practical situation do you see yourself needing to unload that many bullets that quickly? Hunting? Home defense?

Gun proponents would have no issue with legislators regulating "clips" ;)

As for magazines, I'd imagine people would want them for the very same reason LEOs want them: it is advantageous for self-defense.

When I got my CCW permit issued, the Sheriff made sure to stress the importance of having a good amount of ammunition on you for self-defense purposes. He highly recommended I carry more than one magazine on me.

The detectives I had to interview with stressed the same point.

The higher capacity the magazine, the less magazines I have to physically carry on me (and the less money I have to spend on magazines).
 

Tzeentch

Member
Why do you need clips that large? In what practical situation do you see yourself needing to unload that many bullets that quickly? Hunting? Home defense?
Your question doesn't even make sense. Magazine capacity (note, not the same thing as clips) doesn't have anything to do with rate of fire. What you are asking is directly analogous to "Why would you want a 2 liter of soda? In what practical situation would you need to drink soda that quickly?"

Larger magazines are substantially lighter that carrying multiple small magazines, are overall cheaper, and are standard in military weapons so they are well-tested with a massive secondary market and continuing research into ergonomics and construction, etc.
 
wonder when 3d gun blueprints will end up on The Pirate Bay, etc.
You wouldn't download a GUN would you?

Why do you need clips that large? In what practical situation do you see yourself needing to unload that many bullets that quickly? Hunting? Home defense?
Taking back the country?

I'm sure these dudes have fantasies about the gov'ment coming to take their guns and them successfully holding them off ONLY because of their large magazines. Anyone who actually imagines a scenario where they could mount a successful defense against the US military should be committed.

Cool, you have a larger than average clip. Not much good it's going to do against the biggest army the world has ever seen.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Your question doesn't even make sense. Magazine capacity (note, not the same thing as clips) doesn't have anything to do with rate of fire. What you are asking is directly analogous to "Why would you want a 2 liter of soda? In what practical situation would you need to drink soda that quickly?"

Odd logic. Seems fairly obvious that reload time is a large factor in determining how many rounds I can fire in a minute.
 

wenis

Registered for GAF on September 11, 2001.
And now the government has the first step in proposing full on monitoring of the Internet... If the craziest of people get scared enough.
 

antonz

Member
Funny thing about it all is how blatant it is. The reason NY is trying to limit down to a 7 round magazine is because most guns have no such magazines and would in effect ban legal weapons from being used. Conveniently though 3 gun manufacturers in the state of New York happen to make a pistol that has a 7 round magazine.

Cuomo doesn't even bother to hide his real feelings on guns and gun owners.
 
Why do you need clips that large? In what practical situation do you see yourself needing to unload that many bullets that quickly? Hunting? Home defense?

Convenience when I'm at the range. I mean, no matter what the magazines are very quick to replace. So in practice, if the idea is to ban 30 round ones to prevent anything, well, someone could just carry more magazines. They take a couple seconds to replace.

Pointless legislation. I really want to know in general the percentage of guns that are "assault rifles" that are actually used in crimes, btw.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Your question doesn't even make sense. Magazine capacity (note, not the same thing as clips) doesn't have anything to do with rate of fire. What you are asking is directly analogous to "Why would you want a 2 liter of soda? In what practical situation would you need to drink soda that quickly?"

Uhm, that analogy makes sense to me? If we know that it takes you more time to "drink that much soda" because you have to locate the second bottle and pop the cap, that might be something worth caring about.
 

Mully

Member
Funny thing about it all is how blatant it is. The reason NY is trying to limit down to a 7 round magazine is because most guns have no such magazines and would in effect ban legal weapons from being used. Conveniently though 3 gun manufacturers in the state of New York happen to make a pistol that has a 7 round magazine.

Cuomo doesn't even bother to hide his real feelings on guns and gun owners.

Manufacturing can make anything, as seen by these 3D printers. I'm sure a market will open up in no time.
 

u mad

Neo Member
Convenience when I'm at the range. I mean, no matter what the magazines are very quick to replace. So in practice, if the idea is to ban 30 round ones to prevent anything, well, someone could just carry more magazines. They take a couple seconds to replace.

Pointless legislation. I really want to know in general the percentage of guns that are "assault rifles" that are actually used in crimes, btw.

Not to mention:

1. "low capacity" magazines can easily be modified to be standard capacity. If someone had criminal intentions, I highly doubt he would respect a statute limiting the capacity of his magazines.

2. "Assault rifles" (I use quotes, because "assault rifles" are a legal fiction created by legislators. which is also why they have so much trouble attempting to define it for legislative purposes without being overly-broad and including things like common hunting rifles) have been around for ages, yet are rarely used in crimes (John Lott has done great work gathering these statistics.

Also, mass shootings are not on the rise, despite what the media wants you to believe. Their coverage, however, is.
 
How many rounds are in your current mag and how quickly can you empty it?

Semi-auto is usually about 1-2 shots per second. Basically as fast as you can pull the trigger. And if you're going that fast, good luck to accuracy. You'd likely not have recovered much from the recoil of the previous shot.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Gun proponents would have no issue with legislators regulating "clips" ;)

As for magazines, I'd imagine people would want them for the very same reason LEOs want them: it is advantageous for self-defense.

When I got my CCW permit issued, the Sheriff made sure to stress the importance of having a good amount of ammunition on you for self-defense purposes. He highly recommended I carry more than one magazine on me.

The detectives I had to interview with stressed the same point.

The higher capacity the magazine, the less magazines I have to physically carry on me (and the less money I have to spend on magazines).
I'm actually really curious about this: statistically how many bullets are fired in self/home defense situations? Is it really that high?
 

Mully

Member
Your question doesn't even make sense. Magazine capacity (note, not the same thing as clips) doesn't have anything to do with rate of fire. What you are asking is directly analogous to "Why would you want a 2 liter of soda? In what practical situation would you need to drink soda that quickly?"

Larger magazines are substantially lighter that carrying multiple small magazines, are overall cheaper, and are standard in military weapons so they are well-tested with a massive secondary market and continuing research into ergonomics and construction, etc.

Rifles have only have an objective to kill or seriously injure. Relatively speaking, reloading takes a while. The difference between spraying thirty rounds and reloading five times with a seven round magazine to fire the same amount of rounds is enormous.
 

u mad

Neo Member
How many rounds are in your current mag and how quickly can you empty it?

I live in California so I have to deal with the 10 round magazine restriction.

I can empty a 10 round magazine with my G19 in about 1-2 seconds. Reload takes another 2-3 seconds.

Given the 10 round restriction, I have to carry 3 magazines on me to have 30 rounds which is highly uncomfortable. The Sheriff expressed his sympathy for me when he informed me he carries the same piece as me but has 30 rounds with only 2 magazines.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Semi-auto is usually about 1-2 shots per second. Basically as fast as you can pull the trigger. And if you're going that fast, good luck to accuracy. You'd likely not have recovered much from the recoil of the previous shot.

I can empty a 10 round magazine with my G19 in about 1-2 seconds. Reload takes another 2-3 seconds.



So if you have a 10 round mag and empty it in less in than 10 seconds and it takes 2 seconds to reload, then in 1 minute of shooting you've spent over 20% of your time reloading.

Hardly the 'marginal' statistic you make it out to be.
 

Alchemy

Member
I live in California so I have to deal with the 10 round magazine restriction.

I can empty a 10 round magazine with my G19 in about 1-2 seconds. Reload takes another 2-3 seconds.

Given the 10 round restriction, I have to carry 3 magazines on me to have 30 rounds which is highly uncomfortable. The Sheriff expressed his sympathy for me when he informed me he carries the same piece as me but has 30 rounds with only 2 magazines.

Why do you need 30 rounds to fire?
 

u mad

Neo Member
I'm actually really curious about this: statistically how many bullets are fired in self/home defense situations? Is it really that high?

No, it is actually very low. Last I read, most self-defense situations follow the 5 5 rule. 5 rounds, 5 seconds. That's it, takes 5 rounds and 5 seconds to end.

But the Sheriff and instructor I received training from (CA requires you receive 16 hrs of training before getting a CCW permit) brought up several examples of situations that required much longer time, and much more ammunition.

So better safe than sorry. I sometimes pick how much ammo/magazines I carry based where I am going and what I am wearing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom