Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
If its not squeezing the last piss out of its ding dong its unimpressive.
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What does NEOGAF think of the graphics on Wii U's second wave of games
- Thread starter CrisKre
- Start date
Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics Graphics
I'm getting really tired that the majority of threads os NeoGAF lately is all "next gen oh yeah rendering triple x motherfucking hdr x 2000 moving grass omg is this next gen or not I won't buy if the graphics ain't good enough look at this it next gen u mad bro have u seen this 5000 triple buffering graphics you can even see the nasal hairs lucky me if I couldn't see the nasal hairs it would have been a no buy".
I'm getting really tired that the majority of threads os NeoGAF lately is all "next gen oh yeah rendering triple x motherfucking hdr x 2000 moving grass omg is this next gen or not I won't buy if the graphics ain't good enough look at this it next gen u mad bro have u seen this 5000 triple buffering graphics you can even see the nasal hairs lucky me if I couldn't see the nasal hairs it would have been a no buy".
In this thread, the question (of the topic) explicitly outlines the parameters of the discussion. If you do not like it, kindly make your positive contribution to a thread that is to your liking instead. Posts like these that paint with a broad brush serve no purpose and is tantamount to spam.
You're claiming that developers on the 360 and PS3 could easily make their games look better but just choose not to for reasons nobody can explain and I'm the one that doesn't understand.
Got it.
I like how you referenced one of the most technically advanced PS2 games to make your point about cheap tricks vs. technical implementation. Because when I think SoTC I think "now there's a technically unsophisticated game that gets by on trickery!"
Also I would point out that "graphics" is technical implementation and not what you see on screen you need to make actual technical arguments - what is the lighting model, the shader complexity, the number of SH sample points and coefficients, the culling algorithm, etc. "Things in the background are drawn to 2D" is not much of a technical argument, especially when doing that requires extra work from the developer and is more sophisticated than leaving things as 3D models.
You might as well argue that culling a scene is "cheating" and that the most technically impressive games are those that don't cull, don't do a z-pass, etc.
You would think they would just build a PC for themselves and buy a controller and hook it up to their TV.
Well, i am hoping by the time the Monolithsoft game comes out it would look as good as the tri-ace demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cuXgRVMvZ0
At 720p30fps, I believe visuals like these or very close to these should be achievable on WiiU sometime down the line. Of course, I do not know if it will be as free of aliasing in real time gameplay environment.
Palette Swap
Member
Or you could choose to not click a thread with GRAPHICS in the title if you hate the subject so much.
Ok. Well. I get your point. Sorry for getting off topic.
I can male a more sober comment and say that the graphical fixation about """"next gen"""" isn't healthy for anyone. Me at least, don't want to benchmark. I want to game. And about the topic then. The graphics will be hd, and that's cool. They look good. Hope they'll be fun to play too.
I can male a more sober comment and say that the graphical fixation about """"next gen"""" isn't healthy for anyone. Me at least, don't want to benchmark. I want to game. And about the topic then. The graphics will be hd, and that's cool. They look good. Hope they'll be fun to play too.
It's weird that the games that look the worst in the OP are the ones made by Nintendo (Wind Waker and Pikmin). I know they have been working with Gamecube-level hardware for so long that shaders must feel exciting and new, but ease the fuck up! It's not 2005, bloom is a sometimes food now.
Graphics are useless without great Art Direction.
Gears of War, technically impressive. Artistically very bland.
Xenoblade, artistically impressive. Technically mediocre.
X, amazing looking Art Direction with mature tech. Still early in production.
I too tire of people thinking only about the amount of polygons and raw power.
This is why I think the Wii U will succeed and hope the next gen consoles are not behemoths of complicated tech.
Gears of War, technically impressive. Artistically very bland.
Xenoblade, artistically impressive. Technically mediocre.
X, amazing looking Art Direction with mature tech. Still early in production.
I too tire of people thinking only about the amount of polygons and raw power.
This is why I think the Wii U will succeed and hope the next gen consoles are not behemoths of complicated tech.
Fantastical
Death Prophet
Disagree.
I was unaware that hardware power is inversely proportional to artistic freedom and creativity.
This.
Talk about being easily impressed.
I think you're in the wrong thread.
I love that tri ace demo, spherical harmonics for brdf global illumination is hot stuff! not to mention the brdfs they use,
no Ks > 1 shit here
Still early in production... Full context should be required if answering with ignorance. My bad, Art as they say is subjective.
I never said such a thing. Where'd you get that idea?
Evolution_1ne
Banned
"Graphics are useless without great Art Direction"
Wishmaster92
Member
Hopefully an mlaa equivalent and i will be happy.
Projectjustice
Banned
This is still the first wave. Im impressed with X though.
Check out my previous post
The grass pop in is likely because the game is incomplete. Not even Xenoblade suffered from that, as it employed a graceful fade in approach for its LOD models.
Anyway, if you think it's not a technically impressive game, that's good and all, but I beg to differ. Take this shot for example:
For one, the draw distance is as good as it gets. It's clear as daylight with no standard current-gen fog to cleverly limit the draw distance. It also doesn't look sparse like many games with high draw distances. Sure, it uses LOD, but the majority of open world games in existence, whether console or PC, utilize LOD, or else you'd be stuck with crappy pop ins. It's not really a 'trick', but a standard design choice employed to maximize performance.
Another thing to note is the high quality self shadowing. The sword is casting a smooth shadow on the player's back. A lot games now do employ self shadowing though only to a certain extent, as the majority of its implementation is limited to main characters only and a limited amount of props. Take a look at the following GIF:
Pay attention to the smaller enemy. Not only is there self shadowing, but there is also a highly detailed shadow cast from the tree above onto the enemy, meaning there's dynamic projective shadowing cast from static environment objects onto dynamic objects. It's all realtime. When taking into account the scale of the game, that's bloody impressive. Also, as mentioned in my other post, the foliage is marvelous.
I also just realized the environment casts a reflection onto the water in both GIFs. Not a big deal at all, but at least we're gone from the awful Xenoblade water
This screen capture also shows that high-resolution normal maps and specular maps are being used, since even at that close distance, the detail on the enemy still holds up well.
Guess that's where the added RAM comes in handy. If the game manages to keep a locked framerate and a minimum 720p resolution, it will certainly be a lot more than just decent in comparison to PS3 and 360 titles.
Time will tell I guess.
Also, IIRC, Skyrim does use LOD, though probably not as effectively as some would've hoped.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Are we not waiting for Direct Feed shots and videos now? Because frankly trying to judge from those shitty gifs can go either way.
Anyone can use it for hopium because of hidden flaws or hack it down because of hidden detail. Either way, the fact that we're arguing if it's as good as some of this gen's other titles should be dumb enough to get both sides to just focus on the technical side of it.
Anyone can use it for hopium because of hidden flaws or hack it down because of hidden detail. Either way, the fact that we're arguing if it's as good as some of this gen's other titles should be dumb enough to get both sides to just focus on the technical side of it.
Why would you click on a thread specifically centered around graphics if it makes you angry?
phosphor112
Banned
Oh my Lord. Tricks help a game look great. I don't want everything rendered in it's fullest because it's a waste, and you get games that look like shit. Games that do trickery look fantastic, but the ONLY thing that this game is doing is that LOD rasterizing effect. GoW3 (which was mentioned above) was a whole shit ton of tricks. That scene were Kratos walks out and it's fucking ballistic outside, tornadoes and shit? Those tornadoes and effects were almost all 2D, but it still did fantastic things NEAR the player as well. Extremely high poly character models, fantastic shaders, great animations, high res textures, HDR lighting, MLAA. The image quality is pristine, at mostly 60fps.
What does X have to offer? "Scale?"
I don't give a shit if a game using back culling (which is basically standard...) or shadow maps to replicate the effect dynamic lights. What I care about is what the dev puts into the game. The "scale" is great. Being able to see the whole fucking distance is awesome, but you know what? PS3 and 360 can do that, and they have. Xenoblade had fucking amazing skyboxes... why not.... lets say implement "Red Dead Redemption" style skybox? Dynamic clouds that cast shadows on the fast landscape. Why not... add birds here and there... Fix that coast line... the water looks awesome shader wise, but create some awesome coastline effect.
I completely agree, technically they are on par or slightly better than current gen, but art direction is great, specially on Yoshii, Zelda HD and 101, Xenoblade in my opinion looks awfull, it looks too foggy/greyish/desaturated, but maybe it's just the footage and it will look better on the Wii U.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Lol.
phosphor112
Banned
Nah bro. You're wrong. /sarcasm
StreetsAhead
Member
Without disputing your verbalized amusement, is there any examples you would like to share with the class? Or do you feel an acronym expressed a fully-fledged argument sufficiently?
Phoenixazure
Member
nobody is arguing that. people are arguing whether X is technically impressive , which it doesn't. Looks great artistically, and not many people are going to deny that, but a deformed terrain mesh with a texture on it isn't anything to gawk at as the 2nd coming of graphics.
No one is saying that. Everyone is saying that it looks marginally better than what PS360 can do, which is getting so much resistance for some reason.
FlashbladeGAF
Member
Check out my previous post
The grass pop in is likely because the game is incomplete. Not even Xenoblade suffered from that, as it employed a graceful fade in approach for its LOD models.
Anyway, if you think it's not a technically impressive game, that's good and all, but I beg to differ. Take this shot for example:
For one, the draw distance is as good as it gets. It's clear as daylight with no standard current-gen fog to cleverly limit the draw distance. It also doesn't look sparse like many games with high draw distances. Sure, it uses LOD, but the majority of open world games in existence, whether console or PC, utilize LOD, or else you'd be stuck with crappy pop ins. It's not really a 'trick', but a standard design choice employed to maximize performance.
Another thing to note is the high quality self shadowing. The sword is casting a smooth shadow on the player's back. A lot games now do employ self shadowing though only to a certain extent, as the majority of its implementation is limited to main characters only and a limited amount of props. Take a look at the following GIF:
Pay attention to the smaller enemy. Not only is there self shadowing, but there is also a highly detailed shadow cast from the tree above onto the enemy, meaning there's dynamic projective shadowing cast from static environment objects onto dynamic objects. It's all realtime. When taking into account the scale of the game, that's bloody impressive. Also, as mentioned in my other post, the foliage is marvelous.
I also just realized the environment casts a reflection onto the water in both GIFs. Not a big deal at all, but at least we're gone from the awful Xenoblade water
This screen capture also shows that high-resolution normal maps and specular maps are being used, since even at that close distance, the detail on the enemy still holds up well.
Guess that's where the added RAM comes in handy. If the game manages to keep a locked framerate and a minimum 720p resolution, it will certainly be a lot more than just decent in comparison to PS3 and 360 titles.
Time will tell I guess.
Also, IIRC, Skyrim does use LOD, though probably not as effectively as some would've hoped.
This is how you defend a point!
[waits for counter argument]
Yup. Do game devs even develop stuff on retail hardware? If not, what's the point of this thread again?
edit: my original question was "do we know if these samples came from actual wii u hardware?"
I think they look good, but will have to see the performance of X in the finished product. These are the quality I will be quite satisfied with as long as they perform well enough at 720p, and better looking and larger scale than some of the ps360 games that struggles in performance (dragon's dogma, skyrim).
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
God Of War 3 still destroys anything on the WiiU so far.
gg but you will be ignored.
StreetsAhead
Member
They develop using development kits, which in their final form, effectively mimic the specifications and performance of the console. Early kits, while the console is in development, may use equivalent hardware to simulate performance, but final kits include the retail microchips (right?).
The footage shown will be either running on Wii U hardware, or simulated/developed to be running on it. They're (presumably) not target renders. The only exception, maybe, is the Wind Waker HD stuff, which might be test shots from when the team was experimenting with HD and art styles.
I know someone can explain it better than that, so feel free
specialguy
Banned
Again, and people say next gen sucks because it pales compared to top PC GPU's, etc.
Look at the above and note next gen will have at least 5 times the power. Be real people, it's gonna look stupid good.
Maybe this gif is the Wii U's alleged superior GPU showing up, although again I'm still not totally sure 360 couldn't do this game.
Do you eat shit?
X has, quite probably, environments that are about 1000 times bigger than the stuff you find in GOW3, yet stills to pull off visuals as those seen in the debut trailer
just curious, what HD games have Monolith soft made?
The guy is joking...
I'm sure I missed the funny part somewhere...
phosphor112
Banned
Just asked my brother what he though graphically of the trailer. He watched it in 720p by the way. (Not perfect, but better than nothing).
Him [1:35 AM]: looks alright
Him [1:35 AM]: areas are wide open but at the same time very bare
Me [1:35 AM]: do you think the ps3 or 360 can pull off such a game?
Him [1:37 AM]: probably
Him [1:37 AM]: I mean, it doesn't look like anything mind blowing that I haven't seen before
Him [1:38 AM]: let me see a side by side comparison between that and farcry 3 for console while on a hang glider
Him [1:39 AM]: has to be on hang glider for the comparison cuz that way you get the same wide open draw distance
Him [1:39 AM]: cuz FC3 has a lot of stuff in the game, it's not bare
Him [1:40 AM]: so you wont see a large draw distance otherwise
Me: [1:41 AM]: http://youtu.be/lKdnS5frw7w?t=10m45s
Him [1:45 AM]: that xenoblade game looks a bit more detailed for the distant stuff
Me [1:46 AM]: yeah.
Me [1:46 AM]: I think there is more stuff going on in FC3
Me [1:47 AM]: much more in terms of AI, trees, lighting effects, etc.
Him [1:47 AM]: yeah, all the vegetation
Him [1:47 AM]: xenoblade was pretty bare
There you have it
Here is footage of the console version of Far Cry 3.
http://youtu.be/lKdnS5frw7w?t=10m45s
Him [1:35 AM]: looks alright
Him [1:35 AM]: areas are wide open but at the same time very bare
Me [1:35 AM]: do you think the ps3 or 360 can pull off such a game?
Him [1:37 AM]: probably
Him [1:37 AM]: I mean, it doesn't look like anything mind blowing that I haven't seen before
Him [1:38 AM]: let me see a side by side comparison between that and farcry 3 for console while on a hang glider
Him [1:39 AM]: has to be on hang glider for the comparison cuz that way you get the same wide open draw distance
Him [1:39 AM]: cuz FC3 has a lot of stuff in the game, it's not bare
Him [1:40 AM]: so you wont see a large draw distance otherwise
Me: [1:41 AM]: http://youtu.be/lKdnS5frw7w?t=10m45s
Him [1:45 AM]: that xenoblade game looks a bit more detailed for the distant stuff
Me [1:46 AM]: yeah.
Me [1:46 AM]: I think there is more stuff going on in FC3
Me [1:47 AM]: much more in terms of AI, trees, lighting effects, etc.
Him [1:47 AM]: yeah, all the vegetation
Him [1:47 AM]: xenoblade was pretty bare
There you have it
Here is footage of the console version of Far Cry 3.
http://youtu.be/lKdnS5frw7w?t=10m45s
His humour is usually this dry.
Sounds like your bro knows what he's talking about, yo.
phosphor112
Banned
I asked his honest opinion. He's got a 360/PS3 and PC (runs every game at max). He said it looks bare. My complaint that I've been saying the whole time.
Bro.
I guess this settles it then...
Self_Destructive
Member
LMAO Phosphor... I've got a top of the line PC and this game looks better than most every MMO I've seen, and puts other 'console' open world games to shame.
:tom:
I think the X game looks really, really good, maybe even better than x360/ps3-good, but i want to wait for it to come out, as i've been burned by bullshot videos before.
The rest looks ok, not particularly impressive.
Zelda WW HD looks horrible, like someone dumping an ENB without adjusting bloom and shit.
The rest looks ok, not particularly impressive.
Zelda WW HD looks horrible, like someone dumping an ENB without adjusting bloom and shit.