• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Square-Enix Q3/13: ¥5.7b/$61M loss amid console market, praises social/mobile/browser

Haunted

Haunted

Member
metalslimer said:
You forgot about DQ Swords, but man this list is pathetic and I expect even less next generation. Honestly, I would not be opposed to Square's IPs being jettisoned off to the highest bidder.
Click to expand...
You're right, added.

It truly is a disappointing list from one of the highest profile Japanese developers in the past.
 
A

AranhaHunter

Banned
djplaeskool said:
Mobage is owned by DeNA, who's partially owned by So-net, who's partialy owned by Sony.

fixed for accuracy
Click to expand...

So-net is actually a wholly owned subsidiary of Sony. They finished the buyout last month.

http://www.so-net.ne.jp/corporation/en/history.html

No idea what mobage or dena is though, can someone educate me?

lunchwithyuzo said:
If it comes down to a 1st party bidding war, I'd more expect Microsoft to swoop in and outspend the field as usual. Losing Final Fantasy would essentially mean the end of PlayStation in Japan (and also significantly impact them overseas), losing Dragon Quest would seriously handicap Nintendo in Japan, plus with all the Eidos studios and properties it's really just too good an opportunity for Microsoft not to jump all over.

I doubt it comes to that though, we'll see SE sell off assets/studios first (Eidos, Taito, etc). Hell, we might see Enix divest themselves of Square entirely to stay afloat if it comes to that.

Among the first parties though, I'd say a Nintendo buyout has the best chance for preserving and growing SE's Japanese side. They already have good working relationships with most of the studio heads (Horii, Kawazu, Nomura, etc) and they're the only 1st party actually investing in Japanese developers to any real degree these days. Wada actually said Nintendo was the last the Japanese console maker too, at this point Sony's considered "western". I'd expect Fukushima, Wada and the board to favor a Nintendo purchase above the rest, though Microsoft's money would probably win out.

Sony really seems like the least likely of the 3 to secure them imo. They don't have either the cultural pull of Nintendo nor the financial pull of Microsoft, and they really don't even make for an attractive middleground between the two in those respects.
Click to expand...

Your argument is sound, but Sony needs SE IPs more than Nintendo or MS and in a bidding war I believe they could outbid Nintendo. And SCE is probably part of the board themselves which would give them an upper hand. However, I agree that that's unlikely to happen. They will try another FF: SW bomba before trying to get some money injection.

lunchwithyuzo said:
I though they already were? (Monolith Soft, 1up Studio, Genius Sonority, Alphadream, Skip, etc)
Click to expand...

Not sure about the others, but isn't Genius private and not owned by anybody?
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
lunchwithyuzo said:
If it comes down to a 1st party bidding war, I'd more expect Microsoft to swoop in and outspend the field as usual. Losing Final Fantasy would essentially mean the end of PlayStation in Japan (and also significantly impact them overseas), losing Dragon Quest would seriously handicap Nintendo in Japan, plus with all the Eidos studios and properties it's really just too good an opportunity for Microsoft not to jump all over.

I doubt it comes to that though, we'll see SE sell off assets/studios first (Eidos, Taito, etc). Hell, we might see Enix divest themselves of Square entirely to stay afloat if it comes to that.

Among the first parties though, I'd say a Nintendo buyout has the best chance for preserving and growing SE's Japanese side. They already have good working relationships with most of the studio heads (Horii, Kawazu, Nomura, etc) and they're the only 1st party actually investing in Japanese developers to any real degree these days. Wada actually said Nintendo was the last the Japanese console maker too, at this point Sony's considered "western". I'd expect Fukushima, Wada and the board to favor a Nintendo purchase above the rest, though Microsoft's money would probably win out.

Sony really seems like the least likely of the 3 to secure them imo. They don't have either the cultural pull of Nintendo nor the financial pull of Microsoft, and they really don't even make for an attractive middleground between the two in those respects.
Click to expand...

No, MS wouldn't get involved, investors would kill them for pumping that kind of money into a unit that is already sucking up resources, especially when their traditional businesses are not doing as well. Also, the Japanese government would likely try and block such a buyout of an industry titan by a foreign firm and tell the SE board to prefer a buyout from a Japanese company. They have already stopped Sony selling their battery unit to a Taiwanese company and are now buying directly, they did the same for Sony's chemical unit as well. Japan as a country is closing down to foreign investment, and protectionism is back with a vengeance as well as nationalism in business.

I don't think Nintendo would turn up to the fight, they are too conservative for such a move, the management are too timid. If there is one thing we know about Kaz it's that he is not timid. If he saw the opportunity to buy up the remainder of SE, or even a majority stake, I think he would take it and spend the money.

You are clouded by your love of Nintendo and hatred of Sony, if you look at it in the cold light of day, the most likely partnership for SE is Sony. Sony already own a large minority stake in the company, and Sony have been spending on acquisitions lately to shore up their businesses and break into new areas.

The other option is for SE to merge with another major publisher in Japan, maybe Konami who have a very secure future because of their highly profitable online division.
 
E

Elios83

Member
I still don't get how it's possible for Yoichi Wada to keep staying in his place.
Under his 'management' the company has lost all the ambition and the creativity it had, they have become unable to develop modern games in a reasonable time and budget and the Final Fantasy brand reputation has been destroyed by FFXIII and its shitty spin offs, the FFXIV debacle and the Versus XIII farce.
 
A

AranhaHunter

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
No, MS wouldn't get involved, investors would kill them for pumping that kind of money into a unit that is already sucking up resources, especially when their traditional businesses are not doing as well. Also, the Japanese government would likely try and block such a buyout of an industry titan by a foreign firm and tell the SE board to prefer a buyout from a Japanese company. They have already stopped Sony selling their battery unit to a Taiwanese company and are now buying directly, they did the same for Sony's chemical unit as well. Japan as a country is closing down to foreign investment, and protectionism is back with a vengeance as well as nationalism in business.

I don't think Nintendo would turn up to the fight, they are too conservative for such a move, the management are too timid. If there is one thing we know about Kaz it's that he is not timid. If he saw the opportunity to buy up the remainder of SE, or even a majority stake, I think he would take it and spend the money.

You are clouded by your love of Nintendo and hatred of Sony, if you look at it in the cold light of day, the most likely partnership for SE is Sony. Sony already own a large minority stake in the company, and Sony have been spending on acquisitions lately to shore up their businesses and break into new areas.

The other option is for SE to merge with another major publisher in Japan, maybe Konami who have a very secure future because of their highly profitable online division.
Click to expand...

One of the major 3 pillars for Kaz is gaming. They have been fixing the mobile unit, spending over EU1 billion to buyout SE and now with the xperia z being the most hyped sony console ever and the xperia tablet z getting good 1st feedbacks. They have also been spending on the medical side with 50B Y for Olympus and the JV with them. Rumors they might buy more into Olympus also suggest they are bullish in that area. Gaming investments they are a little timid though as the only acquistion is gaikai and they left vita out to die and didn't try to invest in any of THQ's IPs. They do need to do something on their lack of presence in Japan and I'm sure Kaz knows that, if the opportunity presents itself, I'm sure Kaz will try to get a majority share of SE and have a bigger presense in gaming in Japan because right now Nintendo is dominating there with their handhelds.
 
T

Toth

Member
Elios83 said:
I still don't get how it's possible for Yoichi Wada to keep staying in his place.
Under his 'management' the company has lost all the ambition and the creativity it had, they have become unable to develop modern games in a reasonable time and budget and the Final Fantasy brand reputation has been destroyed by FFXIII and its shitty spin offs, the FFXIV debacle and the Versus XIII farce.
Click to expand...

Yeah brand destroyed...... Okay then. Diluted, yes. Destroyed? Sorry you didn't like FF 13. See you for 15.
 
B

Biggzy

Member
zomgbbqftw said:
No, MS wouldn't get involved, investors would kill them for pumping that kind of money into a unit that is already sucking up resources, especially when their traditional businesses are not doing as well. Also, the Japanese government would likely try and block such a buyout of an industry titan by a foreign firm and tell the SE board to prefer a buyout from a Japanese company. They have already stopped Sony selling their battery unit to a Taiwanese company and are now buying directly, they did the same for Sony's chemical unit as well. Japan as a country is closing down to foreign investment, and protectionism is back with a vengeance as well as nationalism in business.

I don't think Nintendo would turn up to the fight, they are too conservative for such a move, the management are too timid. If there is one thing we know about Kaz it's that he is not timid. If he saw the opportunity to buy up the remainder of SE, or even a majority stake, I think he would take it and spend the money.

You are clouded by your love of Nintendo and hatred of Sony, if you look at it in the cold light of day, the most likely partnership for SE is Sony. Sony already own a large minority stake in the company, and Sony have been spending on acquisitions lately to shore up their businesses and break into new areas.

The other option is for SE to merge with another major publisher in Japan, maybe Konami who have a very secure future because of their highly profitable online division.
Click to expand...

Also it looks like the days of MS buying notable 3rd party developers - like Rare - are over and they have gone down the path of creating their own studios so they can tailor each one to their needs.
 
G

Goli

Member
Yottamole said:
You remembered wrong. Enix was never a developer.

What about SE's arcade business in Japan? They still have that Taito logo floating around somewhere don't they?
Click to expand...
SE's main arcade thing is Lord of Vermillion, and now Gyrozetter and Gunsligner Stratus, I think.
Taito seems to be mostly doing iOS games now, and great ones like Groove Coaster I might add. Groove Coaster is even getting ported to arcades now.
Haunted said:
List of Square Enix developed games on consoles and PC this past generation:

Final Fantasy XI
Soul Eater: Monotone Princess
Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors
The Last Remnant
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers
Final Fantasy XIII
Final Fantasy XIV
Mario Sports Mix
Final Fantasy XIII-2
Dragon Quest X: Mezameshi Itsutsu no Shuzoku Online
Click to expand...

Also Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles My Life as a King and My Life as a Darklord as well as the Tales of Bearsworth Manor games.
 
R

royalan

Member
Man...

There are a lot of Japanese companies for whom I think the solution is to branch out and try new things. But not Square-Enix. Square-Enix is the perfect example of a company that needs to go back to basics. They really had the perfect formula in the PS1 era. Ambitious and high quality games..churned out like a well-oiled machine.

They maintained some of that discipline during the PS2 era, but you could tell things were coming apart.

This gen S-E has just been an example of what happens when a company lets Creative have near-unchecked control. This gen started off TOO ambitiously, things got away from them quickly, the top was slow to react, and now the last few years have been a huge mess of chopping up teams from other projects to help salvage games. Is it any surprise that quality (and thus sales) in the console sector have dipped?

Hopefully with this new engine they're setting up the groundwork for a better next gen. Get your tools in order, establish a sensible road-map from the very start, and keep a tight(er) leash on creative teams so they don't waste a year of dev time circle jerking over storyboards and concept art.

There's money to be made in big-budget console games. Just not the way they've been doing it.
 
K

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
AranhaHunter said:
One of the major 3 pillars for Kaz is gaming. They have been fixing the mobile unit, spending over EU1 billion to buyout SE and now with the xperia z being the most hyped sony console ever and the xperia tablet z getting good 1st feedbacks. They have also been spending on the medical side with 50B Y for Olympus and the JV with them. Rumors they might buy more into Olympus also suggest they are bullish in that area. Gaming investments they are a little timid though as the only acquistion is gaikai and they left vita out to die and didn't try to invest in any of THQ's IPs. They do need to do something on their lack of presence in Japan and I'm sure Kaz knows that, if the opportunity presents itself, I'm sure Kaz will try to get a majority share of SE and have a bigger presense in gaming in Japan because right now Nintendo is dominating there with their handhelds.
Click to expand...

At least for now Kaz seems to be pushing for times similar to the PS1/2 days.
 
N

Narolf

Banned
Toth said:
Yeah brand destroyed...... Okay then. Diluted, yes. Destroyed? Sorry you didn't like FF 13. See you for 15.
Click to expand...

The Internet told him it sucked. There is no fiasco in terms of sales out of that pile aside from XIII-2 and XIV, and the damage they caused is going under reparation soon. XIII-3 is debatable; XIV surely will. Versus may also transpire a "joke", but everything else is dramatization.
 
T

ToxicAdam

Member
I think they have enough Worldwide legacy to still survive/thrive in the handheld/mobile world. Maybe they just need to get out of the AAA business, or license their property to others that want to take a risk.
 
T

Toth

Member
Narolf said:
The Internet told him it sucked. There is no fiasco in terms of sales out of that pile aside from XIII-2 and XIV, whose damage they caused is going under reparation soon anyway. XIII-3 is debatable, but XIV surely will. Versus may also transpire a "joke", yeah, but everything else is dramatization.
Click to expand...

I think the appropriate term is that game sales for this generation have been disappointing for SE. FF games still sell 2 million worldwide but the market has changed tremendously. They have to learn to market as well since 13 had a good marketing push and 13-2 had nothing. I imagine they figured that the success of 13 would automatically ensure 13-2 would have higher sales. They forgot that the game needed people to know it was actually going out and was a more refined version of the original. How has their marketing been for EIDOS titles aside from the whole Facebook fiasco?
 
C

Crawl

Member
So a few things, i am little confused how to read the numbers.

They sold 5 billion yen net sales and lost 5.7billion yen for the entire year total? or are these results just for the quarter? Super confused with how its worded.

Also if square says they are making good profits on PC games, why is there not more Japanese square titles on PC? Old Final fantasies, current ff13 etc.. I bet they would sell very well.

EDIT: Also why not put an HD port of these 3ds games out on PC on steam for like $20? like the newer dragon quests and kingdom hearts etc.
 
N

nasos_333

Member
That is what happens when you promote terrible games like FF13 and bury masterpieces like Bravely Default

What did they expect ? Why even move to 3D games, when their 2D aspect is unparalleled

Noone needs just another generic MMO like game, they just have to do what they did, or do in Bravely Default case, best
 
N

Narolf

Banned
Toth said:
How has their marketing been for EIDOS titles aside from the whole Facebook fiasco?
Click to expand...

Deux Ex has proven itself a star in terms of sales (what with the top-notch marketing, trailers were impressive) but I can't tell you more than that, unfortunately. Only got interested into EIDOS and their franchises ever since Square Enix redeemed them, actually.
 
K

Kagari

Crystal Bearer
nasos_333 said:
That is what happens when you promote terrible games like FF13 and bury masterpieces like Bravely Default

What did they expect ? Why even move to 3D games, when their 2D aspect is unparalleled

Noone needs just another generic MMO like game, they just have to do what they did, or do in Bravely Default case, best
Click to expand...

The new XIV is far from "generic MMO."
 
L

lunchwithyuzo

Banned
zomgbbqftw said:
No, MS wouldn't get involved, investors would kill them for pumping that kind of money into a unit that is already sucking up resources, especially when their traditional businesses are not doing as well. Also, the Japanese government would likely try and block such a buyout of an industry titan by a foreign firm and tell the SE board to prefer a buyout from a Japanese company. They have already stopped Sony selling their battery unit to a Taiwanese company and are now buying directly, they did the same for Sony's chemical unit as well. Japan as a country is closing down to foreign investment, and protectionism is back with a vengeance as well as nationalism in business.

I don't think Nintendo would turn up to the fight, they are too conservative for such a move, the management are too timid. If there is one thing we know about Kaz it's that he is not timid. If he saw the opportunity to buy up the remainder of SE, or even a majority stake, I think he would take it and spend the money.

You are clouded by your love of Nintendo and hatred of Sony, if you look at it in the cold light of day, the most likely partnership for SE is Sony. Sony already own a large minority stake in the company, and Sony have been spending on acquisitions lately to shore up their businesses and break into new areas.

The other option is for SE to merge with another major publisher in Japan, maybe Konami who have a very secure future because of their highly profitable online division.
Click to expand...
I just don't see a Sony buyout as realistic, though I don't think any 1st party buyout is likely. Again, if it comes to it you'll simply see assets sold off (foreign first, then their arcade business) until Fukushima can right the ship. Or if that won't work, they'll merge with another big player (Namco Bandai, Konami, Sega Sammy, etc)

I'd also say your own love of Sony and hatred of Nintendo is clouding things somewhat too. All SCE/SEN's acquisitions have been foreign companies and Sony's take of SE stock is a remenant of their relationship with half the company over a decade ago. The president of Square Enix doesn't even consider Sony a Japanese console company anymore thanks to Their overwhelming disinterest and neglect of their national industry. Nintendo meanwhile has been heavily investing in Japan in general for years now and building long standing relationships with SE's Japanese management and studios specifically. Iwata's also not against M&A if given the right situation and incentive, and I think the possibility of losing Dragon Quest to PlayStation (again) would more than provide that. Any of the other major Japanese 3rd parties and Nintendo probably wouldn't bat an eye (except maybe Capcom), but I think Iwata holds SE at a different level given the longterm efforts Nintendo's made towards working together.

With zero debt and a not insignificant warchest, Nintendo could likely match Sony financially too. On the other hand, there's pretty much no way Sony can match Nintendo culturally with how they've (mis)handled the PlayStation business the past decade. But really, the only way I can even see these companies getting involved is if one or the other takes the first step, and honestly that just doesn't seem at all likely.
 
N

nasos_333

Member
Kagari said:
The new XIV is far from "generic MMO."
Click to expand...

I dont play online games, the moment a human character gets in the game, it destroys any kind of immersion and atmosphere for me

I am sure some may be good as games (have not tried one that is though yet), but they defeat the purpose why i am in gaming, to experience unique new worlds and characters, not socialize with real people
 
T

Toth

Member
Kagari said:
The new XIV is far from "generic MMO."
Click to expand...

Agreed. FF 11 would be closest to that term since it came out 10 years ago. Of course, recent changes and upcoming ones, include reworking of magic damage and enmity, as well as the new expansion have kept that game very fresh. 14 on the other hand was garbage in 1.0 but the rebuilding of 2.0 has seen a shift to a much more exciting product.
 
N

Narolf

Banned
nasos_333 said:
I dont play online games, the moment a human character gets in the game, it destroys any kind of immersion and atmosphere for me

I am sure some may be good as games (have not tried one that is though yet), but they defeat the purpose why i am in gaming, to experience unique new worlds and characters, not socialize with real people
Click to expand...

Feeling the same. Partook into a free online MMORPG for more than a year back when I was doing my first steps on the Internet, when I was 13/14. Still wondering where I've found the mental strength to indulge myself in modern slavery.
 
S

SneakyStephan

Banned
Alienates final fantasy fans with ff13 and 13-2
Makes a shitty mmo, then turns it into wow combat.

--> the increasingly difficult condition of the world-wide console game market
--> makes tomb raider like uncharted alienating tomb raider fans
--> this will fix everything, honest!

Even ff13 tried to play like an mmo (tank,debuff, buff, dps, heal ) where you control the whole party (but really only one char directly), they even added kill ten boar quests at the 'endgame'.
 
V

vagabondarts

Member
Noone has any faith in their company any more. The console market isn't tricky. Don't make garbage and release what consumers want.
 
N

neptunes

Member
KillerTravis said:
You guys are crazy! SE is not going anywhere just because of a loss.
Click to expand...
There may be a bit of hyperbole here, but I don't think anyone here is interpreting it that way. It's just that we don't see a SE doing anything to rectify this in the near future, given their current management.
 
L

lunchwithyuzo

Banned
Biggzy said:
Also it looks like the days of MS buying notable 3rd party developers - like Rare - are over and they have gone down the path of creating their own studios so they can tailor each one to their needs.
Click to expand...
The only "major" 3rd party dev Sony ever bought (on the comparative level of Rare) was Psygnosis in 1993. Though in fairness, Nintendo's never really bought a dev on a comparable level of either. None of the 3 have ever bought a company on the level of SE for their games business though. And they never will.


AranhaHunter said:
They invested Y50 Billion in Olympus, a Japanese company. I also think so-net is japanese, but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
SCE/SEN. Sony won't even buy a tiny studio like Clap Hanz for them. [/Takao]
 
A

android.cndy

Banned
am getting tomb raider just for that special dx11 secret stuff. am all bout them graphics than gameplay for tomb raider since i never liked the games, but will support se on their efforts of making good pc ports with good options
 
D

dramatis

Member
nasos_333 said:
I dont play online games, the moment a human character gets in the game, it destroys any kind of immersion and atmosphere for me

I am sure some may be good as games (have not tried one that is though yet), but they defeat the purpose why i am in gaming, to experience unique new worlds and characters, not socialize with real people
Click to expand...
Isn't it possible to experience unique new worlds and characters WITH real people?
 
C

Cwarrior

Member
They can easily make thier money back with more scams*cough*....I mean games like final fantasy all the bravest.

final fantasy all the bravest 2: all your monezy pleaz
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Square Enix expects loss of $140 million from cancelled video game title(s)
News Business 2 3
123
7K
ArtHands replied
Konami raises forecasts as profits rise 53% to $427m
Business
39
3K
ReBurn replied
Are Japan’s console and mobile game markets shrinking in favor of PC games? Developers discuss
Opinion Game Dev
39
2K
Randall365 replied
French video game market (2023) Console Gaming +24.1%, PC gaming -8.5% and Mobile Gaming +4.8%
27
2K
Flabagast replied
Koei Tecmo reports highest sales since 2009 thanks to mobile games, but intends to focus on console titles
Business
0
303
Thick Thighs Save Lives replied
Top Bottom