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[metalslimer]

I absolutely agree. I would add also that even if we admit that marketing/etc. had some part in the system's failure, I tend to bristle at those concerns because they are often used as an excuse to avoid any further analysis.

By blaming the marketing, fans often engage in this implicit messaging: it isn't the product that is at fault. The product is great and that cannot be argued. Therefore, if the system isn't selling, something else must be wrong. People will argue the economy, pirates, and marketing -- anything except admit the system itself isn't appealing .

On the other hand is it possible to think the system is unappealing bu not so unappealing to be at these historic lows with better marketing?

eality, the Wii was an enormous success, while the PS3 was a massive failure, and if anything was learned last generation it should be that "hardcore" gamers no longer represent a profitable market segment. It's why there are so many new, major publishers and manufacturers focused on the casual sector (Zynga, Gameloft, Apple, Google, etc) while the "hardcore" market has primarily seen closures (THQ, Midway) and mergers (Eidos/SquareEnix).

Thank you very much. The revisionist history that has gone on recently is insane considering how much publishers rely on the expanded audience. Just because nintendo utterly failed in creating a compelling reason to stay doesnt mean they should not get a focus.

 

[ChronoX]

It baffles me to this day that this news is surprising to people. Since the Nintendo 64, Nintendo has suffered in this manner. What I find insane is that they are STILL releasing new hardware after all these years without a steady plan for software . They knew exactly when they were planning to release the Wii U so they should have at least had their main first party titles ready and waiting by launch to hold over their most hardcore fans. I have a couple friends with Wii Us playing games they never played before because they literally have no other choice right now.

 

[ASIS]

It baffles me to this day that this news is surprising to people. Since the Nintendo 64, Nintendo has suffered in this manner. What I find insane is that they are STILL releasing new hardware after without a steady plan for software . They knew exactly when they were planning to release the Wii U so they should have at least had a Mario game, Mario Kart game and Smash Bros ready by launch to hold over their most hardcore fans. I have a couple friends with Wii U playing games they never played before because they literally have no other choice right now.

I agree with what you say, but the bolded part is just insane IMO.

 

[Opiate]

Thank you very much. The revisionist history that has gone on recently is insane considering how much publishers rely on the expanded audience. Just because nintendo utterly failed in creating a compelling reason to stay doesnt mean they should not get a focus.

To expand further, Nintendo's mistake with the Wii wasn't going after casuals; that was a brilliant move, as evidenced by their enormous profits and growth from 2006-2010.

Instead, Nintendo's mistake was losing those casuals to Apple, Facebook, and Google. Those casuals everyone prophesied would go away and forget gaming haven't left -- they just moved on to PC/iOS.

That was Nintendo's mistake, not the act of going after casuals in the first place.

 

[metalslimer]

To expand further, Nintendo's mistake with the Wii wasn't going after casuals; that was a brilliant move, as evidenced by their enormous profits and growth from 2006-2010.

Instead, Nintendo's mistake was losing those casuals to Apple, Facebook, and Google. Those casuals everyone prophesied would go away and forget gaming haven't left -- they just moved on to PC/iOS.

That was Nintendo's mistake, not the act of going after casuals in the first place.

Of course you could make the argument that as a company Nintendo was not set up to sustain a multisystem ecosystem on the level of ios or android and therefore shouldnt have put their future on people they couldnt sustain

 

[Graphics Horse]

2 never assume that your console will sell well based on the success of its predecessor no matter how well it did as it will not be same.
i think nintendo still tought that the wii crowd would jump right back on the wiiu
instead of trying to gather their fanbase and go from there
.

This is true but I don't agree with the stuff about not going after casuals in the first place. In the alternate universe where they've just launched Gamecube 3, the successor to Gamecube 2, would they really be in a better position? The main problem, I think most people agree, is the apparent lack of investment or preparation in bringing new games that amaze people.

 

[Chopper]

PS4 isn't living on a gimmick. Wii U is a last gen system except for the controller. But it turns out the controller isn't very good and no one cares, unlike Wii's controller.

Why isn't the controller any good? Its the only controller that offers such a massive range of options re: controls. And plenty of games do/will use it effectively as either an in-game tool or an alternative output medium. Plenty of people should care, but the message simply hasn't been relayed by Nintendo. They're silly in that regard, but not for introducing a controller with a fucking great screen in the middle.

 

[H_Prestige]

A "casual" gamer is just a non-enthusiast gamer. And by definition it's a lot harder to hold on to the non-enthusiasts because...they're not enthusiasts. So I would say the idea behind Wii in retrospect was a mistake. Short term profit at the expense of viable long term strategy.

 

[metalslimer]

A "casual" gamer is just a non-enthusiast gamer. And by definition it's a lot harder to hold on to the non-enthusiasts because...they're not enthusiasts. So I would say the idea behind Wii in retrospect was a mistake. Short term profit at the expense of viable long term strategy.

Apple and google disagree

 

[Xun]

PS4 isn't living on a gimmick. Wii U is a last gen system except for the controller. But it turns out the controller isn't very good and no one cares, unlike Wii's controller.

What we've seen so far would suggest that, but in reality it's not.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

To expand further, Nintendo's mistake with the Wii wasn't going after casuals; that was a brilliant move, as evidenced by their enormous profits and growth from 2006-2010.

Instead, Nintendo's mistake was losing those casuals to Apple, Facebook, and Google. Those casuals everyone prophesied would go away and forget gaming haven't left -- they just moved on to PC/iOS.

That was Nintendo's mistake, not the act of going after casuals in the first place.

I dont understand how that is the mistake. Theres no way Nintendo could have made things that could keep casuals away from those sorts of things without completely changing their identity.

 

[H_Prestige]

Apple and google disagree

Apple and Google don't sell specialist gaming devices.

 

[pieatorium]

Apple and google disagree

I think there is a distinction between the casual player who just gets sports and CoD every year/person who just plays their one mmo and the facebook/phone/wiisports casual gamer

 

[AZ Greg]

A "casual" gamer is just a non-enthusiast gamer. And by definition it's a lot harder to hold on to the non-enthusiasts because...they're not enthusiasts. So I would say the idea behind Wii in retrospect was a mistake. Short term profit at the expense of viable long term strategy.

Agreed. And it also hurts the brand name as the people who loved the original Wii have moved on whereas the people who didn't are still around. It's like when one of your friends starts treating you and fellow friends like second-class citizens when he has a new girlfriend but then comes back trying to get in your good graces once she breaks up with him.

In terms of what they can do, I think we need to move past the Gamecube 2/directly competing with Sony/MS is a bad idea thing. Everyone keeps saying that there is no reason for Nintendo to do what those two are already doing. But why not? Why can't they push one of them out? Make a platform that is competitive in terms of specs, mend 3rd party relations and sweeten the pot for them, improve online infrastructure, avoid silly hardware decisions like sticking with cartridges too long or the GC mini-discs, improve marketing and perception in American/Europe, etc... With the first-party talent they have, and a little bit of work, there is no reason they can't create another NES/SNES type situation.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Not surprised its struggling here, there just doesn't seem to be any enthusiasm towards it, from the media to the fellow gamers I talk to.

I tried it and liked the controller but the system itself is too conservative in specs for the price and the library schedule is shocking. Wii U is a shit name too imo.

Having said that it would be hard to resist personally should a great StarFox or F Zero release for it.

 

[metalslimer]

Apple and Google don't sell specialist gaming devices.

Doesnt mean the same concept couldnt have worked similarly if done right. And consoles are hardly specific anymore. But like I said it would have required a much more cohesive strategy and the console launching years ago.

 

[Opiate]

I dont understand how that is the mistake. Theres no way Nintendo could have made things that could keep casuals away from those sorts of things without completely changing their identity.

I don't really agree, but even if I did -- then they should have changed their identity.

If you have the choice to abandon the hardcore market, you should be doing it as swiftly and elegantly as possible.

Many people seem to say look at the casual market and say, "it's impossible." I don't agree. I don't think anyone in the console sector has managed to maintain their attention, but that's quite different than saying it can't be done. I mean, no one saw the Wii coming, either. Nintendo is clearly capable of doing surprising, explosively popular things. There is reason to believe they could have done it again -- they just didn't.

 

[H_Prestige]

Doesnt mean the same concept couldnt have worked similarly if done right. And consoles are hardly specific anymore. But like I said it would have required a much more cohesive strategy and the console launching years ago.

Nintendo consoles sure as hell are specific. If you're someone who has no interest in games why would you want a wii u? The entire device is centered around playing wii u video games. That's what it was designed to do. This isn't a smartphone or tablet.

 

[metalslimer]

Nintendo consoles sure as hell are specific. If you're someone who has no interest in games why would you want a wii u? The entire device is centered around playing wii u video games. That's what it was designed to do. This isn't a smartphone or tablet.

I never said wiiu was the console to do it or wii was the console to lead into it. The only thing i ever said was focusing on casuals was not a mistake

 

[Thorgal]

Agreed. And it also hurts the brand name as the people who loved the original Wii have moved on whereas the people who didn't are still around. It's like when one of your friends starts treating you and fellow friends like second-class citizens when he has a new girlfriend but then comes back trying to get in your good graces once she breaks up with him.

In terms of what they can do, I think we need to move past the Gamecube 2/directly competing with Sony/MS is a bad idea thing. Everyone keeps saying that there is no reason for Nintendo to do what those two are already doing. But why not? Why can't they push one of them out? Make a platform that is competitive in terms of specs, mend 3rd party relations and sweeten the pot for them, improve online infrastructure, avoid silly hardware decisions like sticking with cartridges too long or the GC mini-discs, improve marketing and perception in American/Europe, etc... With the first-party talent they have, and a little bit of work, there is no reason they can't create another NES/SNES type situation.

the problem is that unlike companys like sony and MS Nintendo is a small company that simply cannot aford to take such risks .
the last time they played the power game they where totaly chrushed along with Xbox by the monstrosity that is PS2 and they suffered big losses

remember that nintendo is a games company only . they have no other branches that could leverage any loses taken from their games like sony and MS can

Now imagine if they decided to try the power game again and build a console with the same specs as PS3 but nintendo has to take the same masive losses that sony had to take.

in this case sony managed to survive altough they were bloodied and beaten .
however nintendo in this example would've been dead and buried.

To expand further, Nintendo's mistake with the Wii wasn't going after casuals; that was a brilliant move, as evidenced by their enormous profits and growth from 2006-2010.

Instead, Nintendo's mistake was losing those casuals to Apple, Facebook, and Google. Those casuals everyone prophesied would go away and forget gaming haven't left -- they just moved on to PC/iOS.

That was Nintendo's mistake, not the act of going after casuals in the first place.

i don't disagree that wii in terms of sales was a giant success
but i disagree with the statement that hardcore market has become irelevant.

when a new console is released the first people who will buy it is the hardcores who will buy the system and create your main fanbase so companys like sony and nintendo should focus their efforts in the first years
to keep expanding this group.
Once that group is big enough then they try to get the casuals on board
IMO nintendo skipped the first step and went straight for the casuals to great success however without a big enough fanbase to sustain it the wii died when casuals left the system for pc /ios

also a question if i may, If you had to make the decisions how would you have prevented those casuals from leaving your fanbase and going for the next big thing ie smartphones and pc's?
to me it seems like an impossibility.

also YMMV on wheter you considder the ps3 a failure but despite the gigantic sales of the wii it also quickly peterd out after 3 years

meanwhile both the ps3 and Xbox 360 are still selling at a profit and will probably keep doing that years after their succsesor has launched
so we might very well end up with at least one of the HD twins surpasing the wiiu in sales altough probably not enough to totaly return the losses that where made.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I don't really agree, but even if I did -- then they should have changed their identity.

If you have the choice to abandon the hardcore market, you should be doing it as swiftly and elegantly as possible.

Many people seem to say look at the casual market and say, "it's impossible." I don't agree. I don't think anyone in the console sector has managed to maintain their attention, but that's quite different than saying it can't be done. I mean, no one saw the Wii coming, either. Nintendo is clearly capable of doing surprising, explosively popular things. There is reason to believe they could have done it again -- they just didn't.

If Nintendo changed their identity they would be completely irrelevant as far as consoles go I would believe. 3rd party and ios, facebook games?

Its early to say what happened though. Not saying anyone is wrong on their positions ay all though. Its simply to early to tell.

 

[AZ Greg]

the problem is that unlike companys like sony and MS Nintendo is a small company that simply cannot aford to take such risks .
the last time they played the power game they where totaly chrushed along with Xbox by the monstrosity that is PS2 and they suffered big losses

This may be true, but people act like Nintendo put out this stellar effort and the market just shunned them. The Gamecube had a ton of flaws, as I mentioned in my previous post. So sure, it would be a risk, but it could be one that pays off if they put the appropriate amount of effort into things. But I guess they'd rather just put out a cheaper and more lackluster effort in order to maintain their profit margins. Maybe the person who made the comment earlier in the thread about Nintendo fans buying whatever is forced upon them isn't too far off.

 

[pixlexic]

the problem is that unlike companys like sony and MS Nintendo is a small company that simply cannot aford to take such risks .
the last time they played the power game they where totaly chrushed along with Xbox by the monstrosity that is PS2 and they suffered big losses

remember that nintendo is a games company only . they have no other branches that could leverage any loses taken from their games like sony and MS can

Now imagine if they decided to try the power game again and build a console with the same specs as PS3 but nintendo has to take the same masive losses that sony had to take.

in this case sony managed to survive altough they were bloodied and beaten .
however nintendo in this example would've been dead and buried.

Nintendo has billions in cash money.

 

[metalslimer]

This may be true, but people act like Nintendo put out this stellar effort and the market just shunned them. The Gamecube had a ton of flaws, as I mentioned in my previous post. So sure, it would be a risk, but it could be one that pays off if they put the appropriate amount of effort into things. But I guess they'd rather just put out a cheaper and more lackluster effort in order to maintain their profit margins. Maybe the person who made the comment earlier in the thread about Nintendo fans buying whatever is forced upon them isn't too far off.

But coming off the gamecube had they released a console that lost hundreds like sony and ms they would have been knocked out of the console industry

 

[Opiate]

A "casual" gamer is just a non-enthusiast gamer. And by definition it's a lot harder to hold on to the non-enthusiasts because...they're not enthusiasts. So I would say the idea behind Wii in retrospect was a mistake. Short term profit at the expense of viable long term strategy.

This doesn't make any sense. There is no logical reason to believe that "casual" gamers are less brand loyal than are "hardcore" gamers.

In the burgeoning days of the "hardcore" market, we saw lots of turnover too. Collecovision came and went, Amiga rose and fell, Atari surged to the forefront then caused a complete market collapse.

There is always a lot of turnover at first, and then things begin to settle down as markets get better understood (and less profitable). iOS has been a stable haven for casual gamers for several years now, for example, with no obvious signs of decline.

This is revisionist history intended to make Nintendo look bad / punish them for daring to "abandon" the core gamer. It simply does not align with financial reality.

 

[Pociask]

I don't really agree, but even if I did -- then they should have changed their identity.

If you have the choice to abandon the hardcore market, you should be doing it as swiftly and elegantly as possible.

Many people seem to say look at the casual market and say, "it's impossible." I don't agree. I don't think anyone in the console sector has managed to maintain their attention, but that's quite different than saying it can't be done. I mean, no one saw the Wii coming, either. Nintendo is clearly capable of doing surprising, explosively popular things. There is reason to believe they could have done it again -- they just didn't.

In hindsight, Nintendo could have abandoned the 5 year generation cycle of consoles and do what Apple did - yearly revisions with incremental improvements. Of course, the other main thing Nintendo would have to do would be to invent the App Store - and with the way WiiWare launched, and now eShop, it seems clear that Nintendo is fundamentally incapable of doing something like that. Even today you can't get a game on Ninetendo's virtual store unless you are an established developer. Can you imagine if Nintendo had opened up WiiWare to every garage hobbyist right at the launch of the Wii?

 

[Exterminieren]

Even today you can't get a game on Ninetendo's virtual store unless you are an established developer.

That's not actually true, FWIW.

For everything that Nintendo's done wrong, it'd be wrong not to acknowledge that their policy towards indies is almost unrecognisable from a few years ago. It's at least up to par with Sony in terms of treatment, and I've heard some say it's better.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

In hindsight, Nintendo could have abandoned the 5 year generation cycle of consoles and do what Apple did - yearly revisions with incremental improvements. Of course, the other main thing Nintendo would have to do would be to invent the App Store - and with the way WiiWare launched, and now eShop, it seems clear that Nintendo is fundamentally incapable of doing something like that. Even today you can't get a game on Ninetendo's virtual store unless you are an established developer. Can you imagine if Nintendo had opened up WiiWare to every garage hobbyist right at the launch of the Wii?

Shovelware titles would of been good lol

 

[AZ Greg]

But coming off the gamecube had they released a console that lost hundreds like sony and ms they would have been knocked out of the console industry

No doubt. They needed to recover after that and the Wii/DS success really helped. Wording it as a Gamecube 2 was wrong on my part as I didn't necessarily mean to do that instead of the Wii but rather instead of the WiiU. The success of the Wii/DS really gave them some breathing room and the ability to hit the reset button and really compete wit MS/Sony this generation.

 

[Tallshortman]

Nintendo needs to go back to their roots.

Scrap Wii U. Make a new 2D-centric game console. Play on nostalgia hardcore by making the console design reminisant of the Super Famicom. Release updated 2D HD titles of every game they released on NES and SNES, including forgotten gems like Star Tropics. Hammer out a stream of exclusive deals with third parties like Capcom, Sega, and Konami to release updated 2D HD versions of their NES/SNES library as well. Even though games will come in DVD-style cases, makes sure the packaging of the games is super premium; put the actual cases in colorful cardboard boxes like the ones old NES/SNES games came packaged in. Make sure every instruction book is at least 30 pages long with loads of nice artwork and game info printed on glossy pages. Every game comes with a poster and every RPG comes with a cloth map. Price the console at $149.


They'd reap mad profits. Am I right or am I wrong!?

They'd reap an asskicking from investors, that's for sure. The love here for retro games and nostalgia you occasionally hear from people who gamed in the NES/SNES days doesn't translate to people willing to pay for a $150 2D console based on HD games from 15+ years ago.

 

[Opiate]

I just want to emphasize again -- because it's a core concept of economics -- that new market segments almost always see high turnover rates in leadership during their nascency.

I will again point out that what we now refer to as 'hardcore" gaming saw enormous turnover in its early days too. Collecovision, Amiga, Magnavox and Atari were all early casualties, while Philips, SNK, 3D0, and even Apple were casualties in the middle stages of "hardcore gaming" maturation. The final victim, some 25 years after the market's birth, was Sega, and we've now had the same 3 primary competitors for the last ~13 years in what has become a highly stable, mature, well understood, but low profit market segment.

This is a normal economic process. New, burgeoning markets often start out with very high profit margins, then as the market is better understood and more predictable, the market stabilizes, and gradually becomes higher end but lower margin. The movie industry, for example, is now incredibly low margin after nearly a century of maturation and enormous turnover in leadership.

That the casual market seems so fickle is not proof of some underlying fault in the audience. It also isn't "proof" that trying to gain their attention is a bad idea. It means that the early stages of any market will be highly profitable but also highly competitive, with lots of new entrants trying to get at the high profit margins, and this intense competition is going to elbow people out.

Nintendo's temporary success at capturing the casual market is no more a mistake than Atari's attempt to capture the "core" market was back in the late 1970s; the mistake isn't going after the market, the mistake is not capturing that market long term.

 

[sp3000]

Nintendo has billions in cash money.

They don't have the massive capital and infrastructure that Sony and MS have though. Both Sony and MS can afford to lose billions each time they release a new console, although this is less true of Sony in their current position

Nintendo have about 10 billion in the bank. Now consider that MS has 50 billion in the bank. The original Xbox was a loss of 4 billion. It's not much money to MS, but to Nintendo it would be nearly half of their financial reserves.

 

[metalslimer]

I just want to emphasize again -- because it's a core concept of economics -- that new market segments almost always see high turnover rates in leadership during their nascency.

I will again point out that what we now refer to as 'hardcore" gaming saw enormous turnover in its early days too. Collecovision, Amiga, Magnavox and Atari were all early casualties, while Philips, SNK, 3D0, and even Apple were casualties in the middle stages of "hardcore gaming" maturation. The final victim, some 25 years after the market's birth, was Sega, and we've now had the same 3 primary competitors for the last ~13 years in what has become a highly stable, mature, well understood, but low profit market segment.

This is a normal economic process. New, burgeoning markets often start out with very high profit margins, then as the market is better understood and more predictable, the market stabilizes, and gradually becomes higher end but lower margin. The movie industry, for example, is now incredibly low margin after nearly a century of maturation and enormous turnover in leadership.

That the casual market seems so fickle is not proof of some underlying fault in the audience. It also isn't "proof" that trying to gain their attention is a bad idea. It means that the early stages of any market will be highly profitable but also highly competitive, with lots of new entrants trying to get at the high profit margins, and this intense competition is going to elbow people out.

Nintendo's temporary success at capturing the casual market is no more a mistake than Atari's attempt to capture the "core" market was back in the late 1970s; the mistake isn't going after the market, the mistake is not capturing that market long term.

Great post that really should be at the beginning of all these discussions before they devolve to nintendo is being punished for casual sins

 

[Pociask]

Shovelware titles would of been good lol

Right, because the App store has nothing but shovelware, am I right?

 

[Mikey Jr.]

So you guys really don't think a mario kart or smash bros wouldn't turn the wiiu completely around?

Mario Kart and Smash Brothers were both on the gamecube.....

 

[Dave Meltzer]

That's not actually true, FWIW.

For everything that Nintendo's done wrong, it'd be wrong not to acknowledge that their policy towards indies is almost unrecognisable from a few years ago. It's at least up to par with Sony in terms of treatment, and I've heard some say it's better.

Where's the content?

 

[pixlexic]

They don't have the massive capital and infrastructure that Sony and MS have though. Both Sony and MS can afford to lose billions each time they release a new console, although this is less true of Sony in their current position

Nintendo have about 10 billion in the bank. Now consider that MS has 50 billion in the bank. The original Xbox was a loss of 4 billion. It's not much money to MS, but to Nintendo it would be nearly half of their financial reserves.

Sony has no money.. I don't get where you guys think they do. They have a lot of investment capitol. But that is not the same. They were scrounging in 2011 trying to acquire as much cash money as they could. They are selling everything they have to gain it.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

Right, because the App store has nothing but shovelware, am I right?

You are correct.

 

[Opiate]

Where's the content?

Yep, at least as far as indies are concerned, we should see swift change if Nintendo's policies are truly "up to par."

With Electronic Arts/Take2/etc. I can imagine significant inertia preventing a ship of their size from changing course. The advantage to being an indie, though, is that your ship is more agile and swift to redirect if new opportunities become available.

That we are seeing so little interest in Nintendo's consoles from the indie sector suggests they still lag Sony/MS in some respect. I don't think any of us are in a position to know enough details about their policies to say what that respect is, but the proof is in the pudding.

Sony has no money.. I don't get where you guys think they do. They have a lot of investment capitol. But that is not the same. They were scrounging in 2011 trying to acquire as much cash money as they could. They are selling everything they have to gain it.

Sony has very large revenue streams, though. It isn't just about cash on hand, it's about total capital.

 

[TheNatural]

Keeping a casual audience over a long term period of time is near impossible. That's why you have to at least have a backbone of a heavy hardcore userbase to hedge against if things go bad.

Like Microsoft right now. Lots of flak over the hangups in the next console. But they have millions subscribed to XBox Live. If they want to switch to something else, they're going to lose their friends on Live, and other things. That's a huge competitive advantage.

The mainstream migrates from one thing to another, and if companies are looking forward to the future to hedge against what will happen, things go bad.

Arcades were once *the* place to get graphically powerful versions you could get at home. Home consoles caught up and surpassed. Bye bye arcades.

America Online was *the* way to access the internet. Broadband became widely available and cheaper and cheaper. AOL didn't invest forward to get into that business. Bye Bye AOL.

Things come and go. Companies like Blockbuster, MySpace, Zynga didn't adapt and they were left for dead.

Nintendo really never adapted to have some hook to keep people for the future. Brain Training? It was a big thing at the time, but turns out now there are a million iOS clones of things like that, and the recent 3DS release came out to a whimper last month. Wii Fit? Fitness products are about the most fickle there are. People moved onto Kinect. And they've moved on from that now, to something else.

Nintendo should have realized the Wii name, the Wii branding was fading and had been for a good two years before Wii U was even released. Those people have moved on, and they're not coming back. Adapt or be left for dead.

 

[velvet_nitemare]

Yep, at least as far as indies are concerned, we should see swift change if Nintendo's policies are truly "up to par."

With Electronic Arts/Take2/etc. I can imagine significant inertia preventing a ship of their size from changing course. The advantage to being an indie, though, is that your ship is more agile and swift to redirect if new opportunities become available.

That we are seeing so little interest in Nintendo's consoles from the indie sector suggests they still lag Sony/MS in some respect. I don't think any of us are in a position to know enough details about their policies to say what that respect is, but the proof is in the pudding.

I personally haven't been paying attention, but a few Nintendo fans on this board like Meelow have claimed that Nintendo is getting great indie announcements

 

[Opiate]

I personally haven't been paying attention, but a few Nintendo fans on this board like Meelow have claimed that Nintendo is getting great indie announcements

I'm not really keen to trust Milo on how well Nintendo is doing any more than I'm keen to trust people who clearly loathe the "casual" market to properly analyse the Wii/iOS. It doesn't mean they're wrong, mind you; I would just want to take a more objective look myself, and look for corroborating evidence that isn't quite so slanted.

 

[AZ Greg]

That we are seeing so little interest in Nintendo's consoles from the indie sector suggests they still lag Sony/MS in some respect. I don't think any of us are in a position to know enough details about their policies to say what that respect is, but the proof is in the pudding.

While that may be true, it may also be as simple as indie developers thinking along the lines of the mainstream publishers who have stated that Nintendo console owners mostly just want Nintendo games. The process may be much easier than before but they simply don't see the value.

 

[Wickerbasket]

I'm not really keen to trust Milo on how well Nintendo is doing any more than I'm keen to trust people who clearly loathe the "casual" market to properly analyse the Wii/iOS. It doesn't mean they're wrong, mind you; I would just want to take a more objective look myself, and look for corroborating evidence that isn't quite so slanted.

There's some good indie games on eshop, I wouldn't say it shows "great" support but it's better than nothing.

 

[Dave Meltzer]

For Nintendo to have "great" indie support they need to be on par with Sony and Microsoft in getting high profile games that launch on those systems and PC. It's all well and good a couple of good games coming out for Wii U, and I'm sure theres good games on the E Shop, but what matters ultimately is whether the system is considered in the same breath as 360, PS3, PS4, 720 and PC when people are deciding what platform to release games on.

 

[Javier]

Where's the content?

It's coming. I believe someone compiled a list of eShop games confirmed/in development for Wii U in another topic. There were around 30 titles total, several of which were Indie. The only Nintendo title was Pokemon Scramble U.

EDIT: Found it. It's from a couple of weeks so there may be a couple of missing titles like Ducktales Remastered.

Cosmic Highway - Maestro Interactive
The Pinball Arcade - Farsight Studios
Oliver and Spike: Dimension Jumpers - Rock Pocket Games
8-Bit Boy - AwesomeBlade Soft...
Wii U Panorama View - Nintendo
Armillo - Fuzzy Wuzzy Games
Anima: Gate Of Memories - Anima Game Studio
Fade into Darkness - Maestro Interactive
Aban Hawkins & the 1,001 Spikes - Nicalis
Pokémon Scramble U - Nintendo
Spin The Bottle - KnapNok Games
Unepic - EnjoyUp Games
The 90's Arcade Racer - Nicalis
Biker Bash - Slightly Mad Studios
CastleStorm - Zen Studios
Super Ubi Land - Maestro Interactive
Toki Tori 2 - Two Tribes
Another Castle - Uncade
Two Brothers - Ackkstudios
Pier Solar HD - WaterMelon
Scram Kitty And His Buddy On Rails - Dakko Dakko
Cryamore - NostalgiCO
Days of Dawn - Bumblebee
Cloudberry Kingdom - Pwnee Studios
Noctemis - Lacuna Entertainment
Karateka
Marvel Pinball - Zen Studios
Mutant Mudds Deluxe - Renegade Kid
Dusty Raging Fist - PD Design Studio

 

[Exterminieren]

Yep, at least as far as indies are concerned, we should see swift change if Nintendo's policies are truly "up to par."

I'm not so sure. It's hard to understate how terrible Nintendo's policies for indie games have been until relatively recently; if there's a perception of how a company acts within the indie community, there's going to be a certain amount of inertia that takes time to fix.

Certainly we're getting a steady flow of decent indie announcements, even if the content's not all present and correct yet. There's a definite trend towards eShop/Steam Kickstarters of late.

 

[AzaK]

It's coming. I believe someone compiled a list of eShop games confirmed/in development for Wii U in another topic. There were around 30 titles total, several of which were Indie. The only Nintendo title was Pokemon Scramble U.

EDIT: Found it. It's from a couple of weeks so there may be a couple of missing titles like Ducktales Remastered.

Then why the hell are they taking so long? Did Nintendo just discover indie developers a week before Wii U launch? In the 4 months since launch here I think there's been, maybe 3 updates that have had a new indie game, let alone a big name one.

 

[ChronoX]

I agree with what you say, but the bolded part is just insane IMO.

I don't see it as insane. They have the time to prepare these things. Every single time Nintendo releases a new system the first thing out of fans' mouth is "Where's Mario kart, where's Zelda, where's Smash Bros?" It's not farfetched and it's not like Nintendo is caught off-guard or will be surprised when people ask for it. They know ahead of time that they're not going to have a ton of games at launch so why not release games capable of holding people over. Smash Bros is a game that's timeless and brings endless fun. Heck some people buy Nintendo systems mainly just for this game. I know what I said may sound unreasonable but they could at least prepare something. I have friends who never played a Call of Duty and Monster Hunter in their entire lives clinging to it because they have nothing else now.

 

[Javier]

Considering all Sakurai went through to get Melee ready by GC launch, we're never getting a Smash Bros. ready at launch ever again.