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[Bundy]

"There's a lot of misinformation out there and a lot of people who don't get it."

Yeah, we don't get it. Tech-experts don't get it. Devs don't get it.
You are the only ones who get it.

We're actually extremely proud of our design."

No problem with that. You can be proud!
It doesn't change the fact that the PS4 is clearly more powerful.
Stop denying it!

You, too. Of course I exaggerated but really, 4k is for *big* TVs.

What is "big" for you? Everything over 50"?

 

[Skeff]

So please explain to us the difference between polygons and triangles.

A Polygon is made up of potentially multiple triangles.

 

[c0de]

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/239226/what-does-polygon-mean-in-terms-of-3d-graphics

One note to add: The Saturn had rectangles instead of triangles.

 

[Biker19]

They should shut up. They should say that not once has the most powerful console won the generation, clearly it doesn't matter, and they're perfectly satisfied with the performance of their box. Done.

I've heard so many posters use that claim of, "The least powerful console always wins!", etc. so many times, that it isn't even funny. The only console that holds true of that aspect is the Wii.

It's not being low end hardware that made past systems successful, it's a combination of hardware retail cost and unrelenting 3rd party support as well as strong exclusives that makes consoles win.

 

[JonathanPower]

In the article the technical fellows say:
"Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing, but we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did."

12 CU's @ 853mhz is perhaps better than 14 CU's@800mhz because X1 Doesnt have the ROPS or bandwidth to feed the 14CU's - IE to use the car quotes MS like, its like a 6 Litre race car without the fuel pump/fuel injectors to feed it. But yes perhaps the clock increase suits their system more.

That section seems to be a underhanded dig at Sonys 18CU's - when their story is different, they have the ROPs and bandwidth to feed their 18 CU's

Actually, you need to have enough memory bandwidth to feed the ROPs.

http://http.developer.nvidia.com/GPUGems/gpugems_ch28.html

The very back end of the pipeline, raster operations (often called the ROP), is responsible for reading and writing depth and stencil, doing the depth and stencil comparisons, reading and writing color, and doing alpha blending and testing. As you can see, much of the ROP workload taxes the available frame-buffer bandwidth.

 

[ascii42]

No, you are spouting facts at random and making incorrect conclusions.

You compare 40K POLYGONS in KZ:SF to 150K TRIANGLES in Ryse. If you don't understand the difference between polygons and triangles, please don't be making comparisons.

Are they using non-triangular polygons in KZ:SF? That would be unusual, but not unheard of (Sega Saturn only did quadilaterals, for example).

 

[onQ123]

You, too. Of course I exaggerated but really, 4k is for *big* TVs.

No 4K is for people who want to get closer to the screen.

with a 4K TV you can sit just as close to a 52" TV as you can a 32" TV.

 

[Bossofman]

I am the biggest Xbot there is, and don't even own a PS3 this gen. but this Hubris of MS has to be stamped down. I am fine with the product being slightly underpowered compared to the PS4, but pricing it like it's the BEST out there, when you don't have the specs to back it up? The ONLY way MS is getting me back, is to provide VALUE, System+kinect for $400 is decent value, $500 is a joke.

 

[c0de]

A Polygon is made up of potentially multiple triangles.

Yes, that is if you know the meaning of the word "poly" but why should they give inaccurate data? Makes no sense. Triangles = Polys in this case, obviously.

 

[funkystudent]

I like hearing xbox engineers talking about the X1's hardware but every time they try and do any comparison and spin to compare it to the PS4 they just come across desperate and phony.

Talk about why your hardware is great and dont dwell on the other guys. Please. Its for your own good.

 

[Bundy]

No 4K is for people who want to get closer to the screen.

with a 4K TV you can sit just as close to a 52" TV as you can a 32" TV.

Ugh, you stole my post
I was waiting for his reply/post

I like hearing xbox engineers talking about the X1's hardware but every time they try and do any comparison and spin to compare it to the PS4 they just come across desperate and phony.

Talk about why your hardware is great and dont dwell on the other guys. Please.

Not only that, but most of their stuff is completely wrong, when talking/comparing with the PS4.
Just check their "VG Leaks/CU's" comment.
It's completely false!
Just stop talking about the performance difference (PS4/XBone) and stop denying it.
The PS4 is more powerful. Period!
Talk about your games, KINECT, etc.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

No, you are spouting facts at random and making incorrect conclusions.

You compare 40K POLYGONS in KZ:SF to 150K TRIANGLES in Ryse. If you don't understand the difference between polygons and triangles, please don't be making comparisons.

Dude, triangles are polygons... And, trust me, I know how incredibly flawed and fucked up that comparison was, but I just did it to mimic some of the same nonsense I see getting thrown around to discredit what the Xbox One can do, so I pulled the same silly throw around bigger numbers game, too. And, to a lesser degree, it showcases that each game, like I said, is doing it's own thing. People are making comparisons and saying this or that to somehow make Ryse seem like a less impressive looking game, when it's totally unfounded, even to the point where it's getting attacked on one of its, imo, strongest areas, character models.

People can't even tell that they aren't even reacting to the true performance difference of the PS4 compared to the Xbox One just yet. Both consoles will be capable, but you haven't seen a damn thing that the PS4 will be capable of. Not yet. Not this soon. It's too early. Hell, it's too early for both systems. They're simply reacting and responding more to developer style, art, and personal taste in games more than the raw visual accomplishments on display in these various games, because if you go to raw graphical bells and whistles, ryse probably has it. Hence, the Mario galaxy comparison is stupid, especially when we're talking about a game that looks the way ryse does. This isn't a Wii vs 360 and PS3 comparison here. It isn't a stretch to say that Ryse may be on par with the likes of those games, or possibly even better.

 

[c0de]

What is "big" for you? Everything over 50"?

Yes, but it also depends on viewing distance, of course.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

60fps in MP in KZ:SF must be proven, because for now its 30-40 most of the time. And latest footage of singleplayer had drops to 20s in some heavier scenes.

Lighting? Read about solutions in those games, Ryse is completely dynamic in terms of lighting, it has also much better shadowing system than both titles combined
Character models? Read about that in both games too, because Ryse wins here, not only characters models have more polys, but there are more of them on screen.
Animation? technically animations in Ryse are very detailed, probably the most detailed from all shown games, they just dont have transitions
Background geometry? We havent seen to much, but city in KZ:SF background has less than 500k polys after culling, its not much and there is no other game with grass like Ryse and that grass span through to the horizon and all of those are geometry with physics.
Cloth physics and body physics are best in Ryse
Motion blur and Bokeh are best in Ryse
We cant really talk about particles, because all games are different, but all of them are affected by wind and all of them are lit by light sources and shadowed by objects.
We dont know anything about water in Infamous and KZ:SF, but in Ryse its tessellated, its FFT and it generated real-time caustics.
All games use PoM, probably all also use tessellation for some geometry.
All of those games use Real-time reflections.
etc, so no Ryse is not technically inferior in any way.

===


By the posts of Sebbbi on beyond3D ROP is limiting factor only if shaders are written in simple way.

--

In every comparison between both platforms?

So basically Ryse does everything better according to you. Just make blanket claims with no figures to back up your arguments. Let's dismiss that KZ:SF has been shown to hit 60 fps in an early alpha stage and that devs are confident about getting there at launch. Let's make a few infrequent drops into the 20s seem like some regular occurrence and the title is just chugging along. Let's claim that Ryse has better character models and more of them by using a figure that was only revealed for the main character, and then make the assumption that this carries over to every character on screen, and then also make the assumption that Ryse can handle more characters on screen.

Putting aside the BS response you just gave me with nothing to back any of your claims up, just upon first inspection, what looks better and appears to be pushing more on screen?

[ig]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2814/9758704471_0166a6b82e_o.gif[/img]
[ig]http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5322/9758934113_4b140571f4_o.gif[/img]


vs.


[ig]http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/205/6/2/1_by_anomally-d6evxyy.gif[/img]
[ig]http://abload.de/img/untitled-1kxu07.gif[/img]
[mg]http://i.minus.com/ibjAScO62m53mq.gif[/img]


vs.


[ig]http://i.cubeupload.com/OGKxYm.gif[/img]
[ig]http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18zc6kufux5azgif/ku-xlarge.gif[/img]
[ig]http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/232/7/2/infamous_second_son___neon_power_full_by_rockshow2oo8-d6izra0.gif[/img]


KZ:SF and InFamous are not only doing these visuals at higher resolution and/or framerate, but they also appear to be much more open than Ryse's confined, linear environments.

 

[IvorB]

It's cool that they are coming out and talking about this stuff at last instead of being so shady. One has to ask: if they are so confident in their system's spec why the long silence and obfuscation up until this point?

So they defend their memory setup as an evolution of Xbox 360 but that memory setup was in place to cope with the incredibly low amount of memory that current gen consoles have. They only have it in place now because they are using slow memory. So it seems to me to be a band aid on a situation rather than the ideal situation itself.

I'm no engineer but it seems to me that the ideal situation would be to have a huge chunk of high performance memory in there so you don't need to do all these gymnastics with the code and the hardware. So it seem to me that Sony's 8 GB GDDR5 represents the ideal situation.

They say the extra compute isn't that great a benefit now but Cerny has said that this is a late game play and something that will only be apparent later in the console life-cycle. So analysing a bunch of launch games wouldn't really demonstrate the advantage of it. They didn't seem to have any comment on the longevity argument.

Anyway the only benchmarks we can apply are the games themselves so we will see how things pan out.

 

[chris0701]

Gameseeker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygon_mesh

A polygon is a set of faces. In systems that support multi-sided faces, polygons and faces are equivalent. However, most rendering hardware supports only 3- or 4-sided faces

So polygon is triangle. Seems you just recalled your math education knowledge for 3D graphics terms.

 

[Bundy]

Yes, but it also depends on viewing distance, of course.

Well then......

No 4K is for people who want to get closer to the screen.

with a 4K TV you can sit just as close to a 52" TV as you can a 32" TV.

.

 

[c0de]

Wow, this is some massive pop-in.

 

[Zen]

See, from reading this, I could tell you were just spouting off things at random. Ryse's character models (but certainly the main character) actually seems like they're quite a bit more detailed than anything on display in either of those two games. That goes double for the main character in Ryse.

-snip-

Triangles =/= polygons.

And it doesn't change that the PS4 would be able to run Ryse much much better.

 

[c0de]

Well then......

.

So I have to be on a gaming forum to know what 4k is for. Who would have thought!

 

[SenjutsuSage]

KZ:SF and InFamous are not only doing these visuals at higher resolution and/or framerate, but they also appear to be much more open than Ryse's confined, linear environments.

Good job, you did a fantastic job of searching out trying to find the most unflattering gifs possible of Ryse to make a point, but all it shows is that you clearly avoided the better ones for good reason, because they wouldn't fit with what you're trying to say about the game graphically.

Also, there are indeed better gifs of those games than of ryse. Aka, the people that made those gifs went all out with some insane quality stuff. We've never had anyone, that I've seen anyway, make Ryse gifs at such incredibly high quality, so there's that. keep in mind I'm not doubting how unbelievable those games look. I say it time after time, after time, but you aren't getting anywhere trying to claim Ryse doesn't look incredible also.

 

[Bundy]

Wow, this some massive pop-in.

Happens when you show Alpha-code.
'InsertsRyseMultiplayer.gif*

So I have to be on a gaming forum to know what 4k is for. Who would have thought!

Wut?

 

[onQ123]

Wow, this is some massive pop-in.

No he is just rebuilding the city as he fly by it's one of his superpowers.

 

[AlphaDump]

Some questions I would have liked answered by Microsoft

Does their Graphics chips support DX11.2 ?

According to this it doesnt:

images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/2/9/1/9/77.png/EG11/resize/1200x-1


all radeon 7000series cards with DX11.1 Can be updated in drivers to DX11.2 - BUT not all the features are present like tiled resources TIER 2 (TIER 1 Is availabe with software) but Teir 2 requires a hardware modification

hardware based tier 2 has me believing it may be due to huma capabilities.

also, it being opengl based at a lower level api may need additional modifications, however that would be tier 1 and upgradable via software... most likely.

 

[chris0701]

Triangles =/= polygons.

And it doesn't change that the PS4 would be able to run Ryse much much better,

In computer graphics, Triangles = polygons = faces.

Do not recall your math education here.

 

[c0de]

Happens when you show Alpha-code.
'InsertsRyseMultiplayer.gif*

Is it my fault Sawyer chose this gif?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Good job, you did a fantastic job of searching out trying to find the most unflattering gifs possible of Ryse to make a point, but all it shows is that you clearly avoided the better ones for good reason, because they wouldn't fit with what you're trying to say about the game graphically.

unflattering? I actually went out of my way to find the most flattering gifs of Ryse I could find.

If I wanted to find unflattering Ryse GIFS I could have used a lot better material. Most of the footage for KZ:SF is multiplayer too, by the way. If I wanted to be particularly harsh I would have posted Ryse MP compared to KZ MP.

 

[Prince Vultan]

Happens when you show Alpha-code.
'InsertsRyseMultiplayer.gif*

lol

 

[Louis Cyphre]

That would be cool if you could fly that helicopter to any of those buildings in the distance, hop out and start blasting enemies from the rooftops, all with the same fidelity shown in that video. If so then that truly is next gen and not just smoke and mirrors.

 

[onQ123]

So I have to be on a gaming forum to know what 4k is for. Who would have thought!

??

 

[DSN2K]

polygons counts aside, KZSF character models look stunning, match for anything we have seen so far on any platform imo

 

[StuBurns]

I've heard so many posters use that claim of, "The least powerful console always wins!", etc. so many times, that it isn't even funny. The only console that holds true of that aspect is the Wii.

Have you? Or have you read posts like mine that don't say that at all, and you just think they do?

 

[gofreak]

Doesn't this suggest that MS's approach to fine grained compute...is to not have fine grained compute?

Well there won't be the same level of thread concurrency.

Lower latency of the eSRAM can offset this if everything can work within its capacity limits. The need to hide latency via concurrency may be less urgent if your latency is lower.

GPGPU perf will be limited by memory or compute throughput. PS4 has an advantage on most scenarios - on compute throughput and bandwidth bound scenarios, and scenarios with larger data sets with irregular access patterns. Latency bound scenarios are less common - and GPUs are designed to hide it. And Sony has pumped up that latency hiding ability via the ACE changes.

Reducing latency in sharing data between CPU and GPU can be an important area of improvement vs regular PCs working over PCi. An APU design does some of that on its own (i.e. there's no thin, long bus between cpu and gpu), but both Sony and MS have been going further to reduce the latency in data modification being visible to other processors. It sounds like MS is also leveraging eSRAM here, and that'll be interesting to read about because the CPU's access to eSRAM has been a bit murky to date.

 

[chris0701]

polygons counts aside, KZSF character models look stunning, match for anything we have seen so far on any platform imo

Have we seen these characters in screen ? Or they are just character introduce promo images or in-engine video ?

 

[Sporran]

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

 

[Skeff]

That would be cool if you could fly that helicopter to any of those buildings in the distance, hop out and start blasting enemies from the rooftops, all with the same fidelity shown in that video. If so then that truly is next gen and not just smoke and mirrors.

There is a video somewhere where a Developer fly's around the map in a kind of spectator mode, It's all there. Unfortunately, I cannot find it.

EDIT: doesn't fly the helicopter, just the Camera.

 

[Zen]

In computer graphics, Triangles = polygons = faces.

Do not recall your math education here.

Not really. Triangles don't always refer to polygons, I've seen developers try to list vertices as triangles before. Marketing is a powerful drug.

Why go crazy about character models anyway? choosing that hill to die on is weird considering the Sorcerer tech demo for PS4, or the characters models for The Order clearly trumping Ryse (and are confirmed as the same models in cutscene and gameplay by Ready at Dawn).

There's no secret sauce, whatever Crytek is doing on Xbox One (regardless of if Ryse ends up even being a good game or not) is perfectly able to be replicated and improved on the PS4.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Also, there are indeed better gifs of those games than of ryse. Aka, the people that made those gifs went all out with some insane quality stuff. We've never had anyone, that I've seen anyway, make Ryse gifs at such incredibly high quality, so there's that. keep in mind I'm not doubting how unbelievable those games look. I say it time after time, after time, but you aren't getting anywhere trying to claim Ryse doesn't look incredible also.

All I'm claiming is that KZ:SF and InFamous both look noticeably better than Ryse, visually. There's more visual density to both of those titles, they're more open, and they're running at significantly higher resolutions and/or framerate.

I'm not claiming that Ryse doesn't look good -- it clearly does. But it's doing that at 900p, and with very confined environments. It doesn't impress me nearly as much as what the PS4 exclusives are accomplishing this early, but that doesn't somehow mean the game looks poor by any means.

I'm just showcasing my opinion that you and Panello are very, very wrong in asserting that PS4 isn't somehow showing an advantage performance wise already. It most certainly is, IMHO.

 

[otapnam]

To me 4k wouldn't be about how far im sitting from a screen at all. It really should be about the amount of information on screen. for Example in a fps like bf3, objects in the distance in 4k would have more pixels available so as they shrink, you would be able to make out more of the object compared to 1080

 

[Vanguardofyourdestruction]

I have no idea what any of this means. I'll just enjoy my consoles and games when they get here. Good day gentlemen.

Which will pretty much be the stance for 95% of console gamers.

 

[Colonel Nasty]

All I'm claiming is that KZ:SF and InFamous both look noticeably better than Ryse, visually. There's more visual density to both of those titles, they're more open, and they're running at significantly higher resolutions and/or framerate.

I'm not claiming that Ryse doesn't look good -- it clearly does. But it's doing that at 900p, and with very confined environments. It doesn't impress me nearly as much as what the PS4 exclusives are accomplishing this early, but that doesn't somehow mean the game looks poor by any means.

So your saying two built for PS4 titles look better than a converted 360 Kinect game?

 

[Biker19]

Have you? Or have you read posts like mine that don't say that at all, and you just think they do?

Well, I thought that you were saying something like, "Consoles that are most powerful never wins the console market!", etc.

I apologize.

 

[Bundy]

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

Imagine what they will do mit their second IP!
More experience with the PS4 hardware + enough time (in comparison to all the launch games and their release day/console launch day pressure) + strongest hardware/console this gen, etc.
Glorious! ^_^

 

[nib95]

Just to clarify on my further point about how KKRT00 HAS seen Shadow Fall running at 60fps and is now doubling down on denial and shadyness.

This definitely runs in 60fps for a great amount of time.

So who is responsible for such a trailer fuck up? How can people that are in video business to do not see such fps drops, which hurt quality of footage, is beyond me.

--
Hmm actually it seems that fps is unlocked in this build, so when Yosp watched the godrays on the trees it run even faster than 60.

KKRT100 was also downplaying QD's tech demo in an earlier thread claiming that it wasn't that impressive because it only had 3 characters on screen at once. When corrected, he said ok 5 characters on screen. Then when corrected again, he said it wasn't that impressive because the characters could have much less LOD and just be repeated which is not that resource intense. Notice how once again, it's a completely double standard when talking about numbers of characters on screen for Ryse.

Dark Sorcerer is outstanding, but its single room with max 3 characters

What I meant was, the Goblin is still hyper detailed, and there was still a scene with 15+ of them on screen at once, including the main character too. 15+ characters is a lot more than your original post stating there was only a maximum of 3 characters on screen at once. Moving goal posts much?

And that scene last 10 seconds from 12 minutes? And we dont know what LoD is on those characters. It could count for like 2 new characters, or 4. So ok, lets change the statement, up max 5 characters in terms of geometry.

You're just moving the goal posts again, and also assuming a lot. Looking at the video, to me it seems like at least 10 or more characters are at full detail, or so much so that you could not visibly tell otherwise. 10 is obviously a lot more than 3.

If character model has around 30-40% less polys than other, adding 6 new ones in full LoD will only yield less than 4 characters as detailed as Sorcerer in terms of geometry.
And i see LoD reduction on background Goblins.

Also games do not spend 80% of its budget on characters, they spend it on environments and ability to put more characters on screen. 5-6m polys is completely doable on next-gen consoles in 30hz [i've said that couple of times already], but 5m of them wont be spend on characters. Thats why i think that this demo is not representative to real game, where something like Infiltrator is, which was point of my original post.

The exact same thing could be applied to Ryse. Walking talking double standard and contradiction.

 

[chris0701]

Not really. Triangles don't always refer to polygons, I've seen developers try to list vertices as triangles before. Marketing is a powerful drug.

How they use Vertices is irrelevant to our discussion.
Some people are just wrong in their limitied knowledge because we can't just apply math term here.

Polygon is triangle in computer graphics, because GPU renders objects in multiple three side faces.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

So your saying two built for PS4 titles look better than a converted 360 Kinect game?

A "converted 360 Kinect" game is a disingenuous jab at Ryse for somehow not being a full-fledged next-gen release.

The game is being developed by Crytek, heralded as some of the best graphical wizards in the business, and the title has long since gone next-gen.

It might as well be an exclusive built for Xbox One -- because that's precisely what it is.

 

[andromeduck]

they should have just gone with 14 or more CU's and 64/128MB eDRAM in separate die

there then might be an argument of balance and whatnot but as it stands right now this is just pitiful


all this balance talk tells me is that there's another bottleneck in the system - probably ROP's and/or bandwidth that was limiting frame rates

having a system balanced for graphics also might be bad news as far as GPU compute goes - the XBone might not be able to afford to spend many CU cycles/holes for compute without compromising graphics


also, I've seen many people writing off 1080p vs 900p as nothing and I kind of agree except the problem here isn't so much that they're outputting at 900p so much as what that would mean especially mid-late cycle

if we have a 1080p game it might drop to 900p and maybe 10-20 fps in really heavy scenes - that's not too bad, 900p wont really be noticebly worse than 1080 during game play
if we have a 900p game it might drop to 800p or 768p and maybe 10-20 fps in really heavy scenes - that's fucking terrible, 800p and lower is very noticeably worse than 1080

 

[not_so_special]

i love SenjutsuSage dedication,seriously

 

[Racer1977]

Remember after E3 when the xbox one was the 1080P/60FPS machine but now 1080P doesn't matter lol

At E3, it was all smoke and mirrors, from both sides to some degree.

In the intervening period, builds more in tune to what we'll actually see have been shown, each new build for PS4 exclusives has delivered improved IQ, effects, framerates etc. Not inconsequential developments, only noticeable with side-by-side comparison, but notable improvements.

I'll leave others to judge whether the Xbox One exclusives have taken such a leap forward, my personal opinion is they've taken a step back from E3, but we won't really know until final release.

 

[JaggedSac]

wth is the guying doing in that gif? Looks like he gets shocked by something and then starts trying to hulk up.