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Fighting Games Weekly | Oct 7-13 | Sharing magical moments in cyberspace

Seyavesh

Member

this is completely pedantic but the models weren't incomplete in ultimate. all of 'em were on the disc and finished which is why the costume switchin' glitch that got a patch dedicated to it was so sweet for folks/why it even worked in the first place. there wasn't any 'unlocking to full potential' or whatever, it's just there for efficiency's sake. unless you mean jill/shuma. people weren't mad about that at all so idk where that's coming from if that's the case.

the only issue i have with on-disc dlc is the same that most folks probably have and more of an extension of being bothered by the dlc model in the first place to where it seems content is withheld from being in the base game to be sold as 'dlc'.

capcom's hugely negative reputation really does not help this at all, nor does their model for dlcs in the first place (having lots and lots of it, that is)- having withheld content that ultimately seems like it should've been readily available in reach does bother folks even if it's not like what their actual business plan is.

like seriously it really, really doesn't help them. sfxt and re6 are definitely two of the biggest kicks to the nuts of capcom recently and the dlc plans for those games really did a number on their already bad reputations. sfxt having like what, a third of it's cast being on disc but not accessible immediately and re6's only decent game mode (mercs) only having 3 maps with on disc dlc making up the other 7 really blew.

arguing it based on contracts is cool but does nothing to address the actual issue folks have which is basically expectations as a consumer first and foremost. with other games and on-disc dlc, i don't think people have as much issue with it due to the reputations of the companies and the package they receive as a game- it's pretty much widely accepted that capcom fighting games are barebones as hell.

like i think if injustice had on-disc dlc (did people even check i don't remember) folks would be less bothered simply bc it's from a different company and feels like a more 'fully featured' game- including the point of where alternate costumes are already available within the base game.

edit: haha speak of the devil
 

Mr. X

Member
Widening the customer base is way simpler than developers make it seem. There are five big reasons people leave fighting games:
1) They are FotM gamers; they were going to leave no matter what.
2) The game has gotten boring (how many Ryu mirrors is the average joe willing to play?).
3) The game's balance has become a serious issue.
4) The competition has gotten too good.
5) The netcode is not good enough for online play.

3/5 of these issues can be solved through post-release support, and developers need to understand that free post-release support is the expectation from people who buy fighting games. MOBAs do this just fine, and it's the same crowd of gamers that enjoy these games. 3) and 5) are killing Marvel, and 2) is killing Street Fighter.

Fighting games do not need to be watered down. No one is watering down LoL, DotA, and various FPS games. No one is giving the people who play these games crap like X-Factor, TACs, Ultras, and other gimmicks for the casual base, but people keep playing these games and learning them. They keep playing these games because they have a social component (team play), have great netcode, are continually rebalanced, and never get boring because each match is extremely different. How many fighting games can spout all four of these characteristics? I can't even think of a fighting game that has two of these characteristics.

If fighting games are dying, it's because the developers are not creating games good enough to keep the genre alive. While I love Marvel, I love Marvel like I love the only chinese buffet in town. It's the only way I have to satisfy a craving. The food is not great, but at least I got chinese. Real talk: Marvel has mediocre balance, and the netcode is just rotten. That the game still has a considerable active playerbase shows how much potential a game like this has, but most of the people I know got tired of being stomped by the "top tiers" in laggy games. Vergil is 10x more terrifying in lag.

It's downright embarrassing that major fighting game companies like NRS, Capcom, and SNK can't make netcode that feels better than the days when I played Diablo II on a 56k modem, but small companies like ASW and LabZero are knocking out of the part. These guys need to get their shit together and stop looking for gimmicks that will fix their products. They need to make solid products for a change. Fighting games are not like your factory-made AAA titles. They cannot get by on flashy graphics and QTE interactives to impress the masses. They need to actually be good games, and most companies don't know how to make one of those anymore.

Nothing is free. Where is the money coming for these patches? Planned in the initial budget and planning to make the money spent back via game sales and DLC most likely, hence being a limited number or the cost is calculated into the DLC price/expectations.

FPS has gotten noob tubes, martyrdom, death streaks, heavy handed aim assist.
LoL/DotA are simplified RTSs From what I can see, they look like controlling 1 unit instead of micro and macro managing a dozen units of 1 race, it's also team based so along with less to manage the individual has even less.

Patching just to keep shit changing is awful, ew.

SNK has been teetering on bankruptcy for years now. They are not big or major anymore (maybe in patchislots). ASW is bigger than them at this point.

A fighting game won't be mainstream awesome huge until they:

-Somehow get that "getting better without intentionally practicing" of FPS, TPS and LoL/DotA. Those games "feel" like you just hop into a match, figure out what works and you worry about your KDR and sometimes your team wins. Then over time you pick up on the popular areas people go to, map awareness and etc. but it's usually passive whereas it feels like work when you go into training mode and practice combos, motions on the P2 or P1 side, etc.

-Netcode or internet is good enough to not be a hindrance.

- [Something I absolutely loathe] Do what a lot of these games do and incorporate a lot of addictive, positive reinforcement stuff like cool guitar riffs and lights when you level up, progress/exp bars, unlock stuff for doing particular goals in match, BONUS WHATEVER DAYS!, minimize any sort of negative penalty like down ranking or taking away
--Think of all the stuff that CoD has to unlock and all the positive reinforcement for doing anything, it's like a euphoric high while you play that when you're not playing, you want to be playing and you kind of put up with a lot of bullshit for it when you're playing
 

Dahbomb

Member
The micro management required in a MOBA game is way more intensive than any RTS out there (in DOTA 2 it's up to 6 active items with 4 abilities on a single hero). And it's really the team aspect which differentiates good play from bad play. The collective skill level of the 5 players on one team is quite substantial.

Instant gratification fighting games are coming. It's already in KI to some extent (throw someone 5 times get 5 KI points or some shit).
 

Mr. X

Member
DLC content

Anybody who thinks it matters where it is, on disc somewhere locked or at wherever waiting, I don't know what to say anymore.

It cost money to make that isn't a part of the main game's budget. There's months of time between when the main game is done and it's in testing or whatever and when the consumer receives it. They would typically split the team up and put them on other projects but instead get them to work on what they didn't have time or money to finish or bonus content and sell later.

When Sony/MS or whatever charges you for how much space your content takes up (I recall reading this somewhere, not sure if still true), your damn skippy they'll want to put as much of the DLC on disc as they can and save money.

You can go into a lot of the old games and see unfinished or unused assets, DLC and post-release support allows devs to get this out now, which imo is awesome. I understand the consumer perspective of wanting the most of what you can get at the lowest price but people that work expect to be paid for their time.

Not talking about $50 horse armor or whatever.

SFxT is unique in that Lupinko actually leaked the DLC characters when he leaked the roster so everyone said they were suppose to be in the game, Capcom is holding them for money when you would probably have decided the roster and DLC roster at the same time and worked on the DLC characters after the initial roster was completed and fine tuning will be later.

This then is exacerbated by the delaying their release with the PSP version.
 

Pompadour

Member
I'd rather not have the DLC data on disk, since it does upset many people. If its not on the disc, no one fewer people can bitch about an incomplete game. It helps the general public's perception of the game as well.
Yeah, fundamentally I can’t support actions entirely designed to appease people with irrational complaints about how/when/where content is delivered to them. However, those people do have a voice and can negatively impact the sales of a game so I imagine developers will be extra careful to obfuscate the DLC process just to avoid a backlash.

I think now people, for the most part, realize that DLC requires extra funding to create said content and that extra funding used to create the DLC in hopes that the investment would yield a return. Putting that DLC content into the game itself would yield less return in their investment (most likely) and from there the argument becomes about what the customer believes is a fair value.

However, I don’t understand why people think that DLC and the base game can’t be developed at the same otherwise it’s a cash grab scenario. There is an impetus to creating DLC side-by-side with the game because DLC is going to sell better shortly after release of the base game. Game publishers aren’t necessarily cutting out a slice of pie and selling it back to you after the fact.

So the solution is to keep this data, data already created for financially sound reasons, off the disc just so people won’t come to the wrong conclusion? It costs the developers money for the bandwidth of larger downloads whereas putting the DLC on the disc saves on that cost. Now due to the irrational backlash of DLC-on-disc developers can pay those bandwidth fees and chalk it up as a marketing cost to maintain a good image of their product.

The big problem at the heart of this matter is what customers view as the intent of the developer/publisher. In fact, it’s all supposition that a developer is using on-disc DLC that was extracted from the main game to gouge their customers. There’s also no proof that on-disc DLC was a prudent, cost-cutting measure and the DLC released shortly after game launch was just capitalizing on the window when customers are most likely to purchase the DLC.

Now here’s where I disagree with basically everything I said above and illustrate where I think Capcom made themselves look pretty nefarious. Capcom’s approach with the 12 DLC characters was a big mistake because instead of releasing them shortly after the release of the game, they were holding off on these characters as an incentive for the Vita version that was releasing a half a year later. Not only did this irritate people who were going to have to wait an excessively long time to buy finished content, one could argue that the funding for the Vita port covered the costs of those 12 characters and Capcom was just double-dipping.
 
What’s ironic about all of this is that Capcom was so aware of their image of re-releasing the same game over and over since the SNES days that Street Fighter X Tekken was there counter to that. SFxT was designed to be one big title, probably due to contractual reasons with Namco that prevented separate titles acting as updates, that would evolve over time with revenue from DLC sales. Although I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with putting DLC characters on the disc and people who complain about that sort of thing are uninformed IN GENERAL, Capcom handled the situation very poorly. In fact, it seems full-on updates to fighting games gets much less flack (outside of people who don’t play fighting games anyway that want to chime in) than DLC updates so they should probably stick to that. I’m guessing next generation Capcom’s fighters will be F2P for the most part, though.
 

Clawww

Member
Had to share, this is too good lol

QzEYSzr.png

haha, been bugging out about interviews, I liked this
 
How come eventhubs doesn't show smaller weekly events like San Diego Fighters (with DiosX & Viscant) on their page? I hope more stuff shows up like when iPlaywinner were going to random tourneys and streaming them.
 

jbug617

Banned
Mr Wizard asking on twitter if they had to choose 1 anime game for EVO what would it be.

Choices are:

BBCP
GG+R
Persona 4 Suplex Hold

I don't think Persona will be out for consoles. BB will be the new game and GG is hype. I don't know what to pick.
 

Mr. X

Member
The micro management required in a MOBA game is way more intensive than any RTS out there (in DOTA 2 it's up to 6 active items with 4 abilities on a single hero). And it's really the team aspect which differentiates good play from bad play. The collective skill level of the 5 players on one team is quite substantial.

Instant gratification fighting games are coming. It's already in KI to some extent (throw someone 5 times get 5 KI points or some shit).

I'm gonna have to give LoL and DotA2 a shot just for the research. Something more intensive than Starcraft 1 managing and controlling a bunch of ground and air Protoss units in battle while keeping new units coming with an eye on resources sounds fun.
 

alstein

Member
Mr Wizard asking on twitter if they had to choose 1 anime game for EVO what would it be.

Choices are:

BBCP
GG+R
Persona 4 Suplex Hold

I don't think Persona will be out for consoles. BB will be the new game and GG is hype. I don't know what to pick.

For EVO, I'd go

Persona
GG
BB

If I had to order them. Persona has the most appeal to non-anime types (though will it be out in time?), and will draw the highest numbers.

GG has the most name value , but it will likely make EVO 2015 as Xrd, so it can wait.

BB isn't all that respected, and I think Extend is going to hurt CP sales/tourney numbers. If BB is drawing legit tourney numbers at majors, it should get in over GG in 2014.
 

kirblar

Member
Mr Wizard asking on twitter if they had to choose 1 anime game for EVO what would it be.

Choices are:

BBCP
GG+R
Persona 4 Suplex Hold

I don't think Persona will be out for consoles. BB will be the new game and GG is hype. I don't know what to pick.
Persona obviously out because it won't be in the US in time.

Guilty Gear is old and a hardcore-only game at this point. (Let's be honest- people are playing it to practice for Xrd)

BlazBlue is the only reasonable choice- it'll be out in the US by EVO.
 
isn't the whole point of a frank west team not to use frank west level 1 unless you have to?

Nova/Frank/Doom seems like a better team. You get the assist, you get the lvl 4/5 and if frank dies after the DHC you get nova/doom shell. If nova dies then atleast you have Frank/Doom, which is something I guess.
 
I'm gonna have to give LoL and DotA2 a shot just for the research. Something more intensive than Starcraft 1 managing and controlling a bunch of ground and air Protoss units in battle while keeping new units coming with an eye on resources sounds fun.

I actually watched a chunk of Dota 2 matches over the last few months after TI3 even though I'd never played (and still have not) any MOBA, just because the hype intrigued me. And I have to say that they are really interesting, I can see the appeal. It's never going to be for me, I'm a busy guy and often my gaming time comes in small 15-20 min chunks, so I just don't have the time for 15-40 matches. Fighting games just fit my life much better as I can play batches of short 4-5 minute matches and just stop when I need to.

But I do see some interesting concepts from the MOBAs that I'd love to see make their way over into fighting games. One thing that I found cool about the Dota 2 matches was the whole drafting / banning stage for a team game. Having that as a feature of competitive play does so much for keeping the metagame fresh and interesting as you avoid having the same static matchups over and over again. Even if teams / players have "signature" players that they are best at they have to both have a grasp of much more of the cast and have the ability to try to combine cast members into a cohesive team on the fly. I feel like something like this would be incredible for a game like Marvel due to the big cast / multiple assists available. Something like a three man team Marvel tournament with only one of each character available to both teams and a draft / ban stage to start things out sounds super interesting for me. You'd get to see some really interesting team combinations and more of the mid-tier characters getting a chance in the spotlight.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I'm gonna have to give LoL and DotA2 a shot just for the research. Something more intensive than Starcraft 1 managing and controlling a bunch of ground and air Protoss units in battle while keeping new units coming with an eye on resources sounds fun.
It's not the same kind of micro. What you are talking about is more macro and there is none of that really in DOTA. Thr micro I am talking about is stuff like timing you attacks so you always last hit creeps, juking in enemy lines, dodging skill shots or using them and general playing against a whole team with various levels of team fights, ganks and engagements. Stuff like holding down the Mid lane is a whole game by itself as you have to control runes, keep your lane in check while also gank side lanes. Its a different beast than a RTS. Of course if you want to play SC style of controlling various units you can play Chen or Meepo. This is only for DOTA not for LoL, don't care about LoL its a scrubbier DOTA anyway.

And how the hell do you play online on AE PC? I don't know where to plug in my Steam key. I can play single player though.
 

Shouta

Member
isn't the whole point of a frank west team not to use frank west level 1 unless you have to?

Nova/Frank/Doom seems like a better team. You get the assist, you get the lvl 4/5 and if frank dies after the DHC you get nova/doom shell. If nova dies then atleast you have Frank/Doom, which is something I guess.

Doom Missiles solves everything though!

If you can get a Lv 5 Frank in with two really good assists in, I don't see why it wouldn't be something to aim for. Jam is also a ridiculously good assist and you can do some crazy stuff with it behind Frank.

Anyway, DOTA2 is a different type of micro than most RTS but both are equally intense, especially at high level RTS where most folks are controlling their units really well.
 

kirblar

Member
It's not the same kind of micro. What you are talking about is more macro and there is none of that really in DOTA. Thr micro I am talking about is stuff like timing you attacks so you always last hit creeps, juking in enemy lines, dodging skill shots or using them and general playing against a whole team with various levels of team fights, ganks and engagements. Stuff like holding down the Mid lane is a whole game by itself as you have to control runes, keep your lane in check while also gank side lanes. Its a different beast than a RTS. Of course if you want to play SC style of controlling various units you can play Chen or Meepo. This is only for DOTA not for LoL, don't care about LoL its a scrubbier DOTA anyway.

And how the hell do you play online on AE PC? I don't know where to plug in my Steam key. I can play single player though.
GFWL. Barf. Shift-Tab to get the key.

Don't worry, USF4 is Steam.
 
Speaking of SF on Steam, anyone planning on going all digital with fighting games next gen? I might just out of convenience of not having to search for discs whenever I wanna play a specific game.
 

onionfrog

Member
Speaking of SF on Steam, anyone planning on going all digital with fighting games next gen? I might just out of convenience of not having to search for discs whenever I wanna play a specific game.
Only on PC.
Console game digital prices are usually too high. No competing digital market means that they can price things however they want, and have no incentive to do steam-like sales.
 

alstein

Member
Speaking of SF on Steam, anyone planning on going all digital with fighting games next gen? I might just out of convenience of not having to search for discs whenever I wanna play a specific game.

I plan to go PC only. I think we'll get sufficient PC releases, I only played fighters on console this gen, and I really hate mandatory junk fees solely to play online.

If the PC releases don't come, I'll just give up on fighters.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
I plan to go PC only. I think we'll get sufficient PC releases, I only played fighters on console this gen, and I really hate mandatory junk fees solely to play online.

If the PC releases don't come, I'll just give up on fighters.

I am the same way. It's why I hope ArcSys can see the value of releasing their fighting games on Steam someday.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Next Toronto Major. Next weekend, sign ups end on Sunday man, sign up soon!
Who's idea is it to schedule a major in the middle of midterms? >:[
Probably wouldn't go either way.

Speaking of SF on Steam, anyone planning on going all digital with fighting games next gen? I might just out of convenience of not having to search for discs whenever I wanna play a specific game.
So long as there is a physical option, I will take it. Maybe I'll consider it if they royally fuck up bad and the digital version is the only one that doesn't have performance issues, but it's usually the other way around right now.

Only exception is PC where there's no point of buying physical anymore when everything physical has to be validated online anyways. Might as well go straight to the source (and pay next to nothing on Steam too). But it's not like I'm going to upgrade my PC any time soon so I don't think that'll be an issue.
 
As of now, I can only see myself purchasing Smash and USF4 simply because my friends/coworkers are not interested in Xrd or KI.

Man, to have UMvC3 PC would be amazing. I already have two copies of ps3, one vita and one Xbox.
 
Fighting games need matchmaking that is as aggressively balanced as DOTA 2.


Win your first three matches 6-0 with dramatic life advantage? You get high skill ranking. No more being matched with noobs for you.


What turns people off a fighting game is getting horribly beaten by vets when they start playing. Actually banding people by skill would go a long way to fixing the issue.


Of course, ranked matches need to be FT3, not FT1. FT1 is no fun - nobody wants to lose two straight rounds and then wait in MM for three minutes. Tournaments are FT3, why is ranked FT1?


If your matchmaking matches up a guy who is learning how to throw a hadoken with Justin Wong, your matchmaking is broken.
 
I don't see a GG community in OP so I'll ask this here. Is there an online community for GG on 360? is netcode playable?

The netcode is really bad unfortunately. Even on the best connections the input delay is very noticeable. Also if the 360 side is anything like the PS3 side, there's basically nobody online.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Fighting games need matchmaking that is as aggressively balanced as DOTA 2.


Win your first three matches 6-0 with dramatic life advantage? You get high skill ranking. No more being matched with noobs for you.


What turns people off a fighting game is getting horribly beaten by vets when they start playing. Actually banding people by skill would go a long way to fixing the issue.


Of course, ranked matches need to be FT3, not FT1. FT1 is no fun - nobody wants to lose two straight rounds and then wait in MM for three minutes. Tournaments are FT3, why is ranked FT1?


If your matchmaking matches up a guy who is learning how to throw a hadoken with Justin Wong, your matchmaking is broken.
This is interesting.

Aggressive balancing is what turned people off from Injustice, but that also could have been partly because they really just kept adjusting sliders until something sticks instead of considering individual character balance in the context of the whole game. I wonder if it was more aggressive, would it just piss people off even more or would it keep a constant conversation going like it does for F2P games?

I think it's very important to consider the model both games have. People are okay with things changing frequently in F2P games because they know it's a work in progress at all times. When I talk to my casual fighting game friends, they talk about balance in a very static manner "oh I heard it came out in Japan and they say it's very balanced so it should be good, I'll pick it up." That word of god dries up when your faced with Sony and especially Microsoft cert across this gen. Your average consumer does not give one fuck in that case about what gets balanced after. When cert gets through, they're on to the next one.

And agreed about ranked/online matched being FT1 being incredibly counterintuitive and probably driving off even more players when they get their assess whooped in seconds before they can learn/adapt.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Figured out the GFWL thing, it was stupid as hell but now I am in there.

Ready to get my ass kicked in AE with my day 1 play.
 
This is interesting.

Aggressive balancing is what turned people off from Injustice, but that also could have been partly because they really just kept adjusting sliders until something sticks instead of considering individual character balance in the context of the whole game. I wonder if it was more aggressive, would it just piss people off even more or would it keep a constant conversation going like it does for F2P games?

Getting matched up vs a person you have no chance of beating is far worse than trenches.
 
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