Psycho_Mantis
Banned
That joke got old years ago.
None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.
Your post has to be a joke. Either that or you haven't seen Dragonball Z.
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Are you happy with the "visual identity" adopted by modern Final Fantasy?
- Thread starter MYE
- Start date
Your post has to be a joke. Either that or you haven't seen Dragonball Z.
Comfort Jones
Banned
FF's visual design is a huge part of the reason why I don't even bother. I see some of their designs and I'm like "yeah there is no fuckin way I'm taking that woman seriously".
NEEDS MORE BELTS.
NEEDS MORE BELTS.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
But the same can be said about most artists that dabble in a particular style. Hell, you can say the same about Nomura.
I'm not saying all his characters look the same, but one could pretty much play both sides and bring up examples of characters that DO have similar looks(especially facial structure, which a lot of Nomura's characters share) and examples how they look different(like Toriyama).
Saint of Killers
Member
I am not a fan of the modern FF character design. It's one of the main reasons why I no longer bother with the series, but then I've played all of 4 FF games; VI, VII, VIII and IX. And only completed two of those! Would be nice if they brought the traditional character artstyle back, though.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
That's true... but the other guy made the claim that they aren't similar, which is plain wrong.
What's traditional to you?
Meccanical
Member
Same can be said of all artists really, it happens.
Katsuhiro Otomo is one of the best manga artists of all time and he suffers from it.
Katsuhiro Otomo is one of the best manga artists of all time and he suffers from it.
SolidSnakex
Member
1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 will be playable. There may be others, but those 5 are confirmed.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
Looking similar is different than looking the same. They are similar, but they don't look the SAME as Goku.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Exactly. Theres nothing particularly wrong with having a really distinguishable art style.
I can see that this is an element desirable by players like many want to have an ingame mp3 player to play their own music. And I say yes, if it's a really open minded game, sure. I could even see that working in FF XV. Let's say, it would probably not work in Skyrim.
I thought I read it between the lines, I don't even know who is being sarcastic in this thread or not sometimes! xD
This is really lazy in my opinion. The zippers and belts are so old, I don't even recall ever being bothered by this. And who is that woman, a main character? Ashe, Lightning, Yuna are more decent than their clothes would imply. Yes, even Lightning... maybe that's an overstatement for some but her attire is probably spot on.
Uncle Rupee
Banned
Akihiko Yoshida should replace Nomura, and they shouldn't force him to design characters like Vaan to appeal to their female demographic.
While I don't oppose most aspects of it on principle ("THE MEN ARE TOO GIRLY" "IT'S NOT FANTASY ANY MORE!" etc.), I can't say I'm overly fond of the art direction in the XIII sub-series. I can see what they were going for in most cases, it just doesn't work for me.
XV seems much better in terms of nailing the science-fantasy world, though I still find the suave, modern outfits a little weird. I guess I would have preferred a fusion of modern, historical, and fantastic designs more akin to The Last Story or Type-0.
XV seems much better in terms of nailing the science-fantasy world, though I still find the suave, modern outfits a little weird. I guess I would have preferred a fusion of modern, historical, and fantastic designs more akin to The Last Story or Type-0.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Nah, Nomura is much better imo. His character designs are some of the most liked in jrpgs.
Well, what's going on right now is that we've got both. Which is great, imo. FF14 looks gorgeous. FF15 looks gorgeous. KH3 looks gorgeous. Bravely Default looks gorgeous.
So much gorgeousosity going on. Happy times for me!
Vaan get a lot of bashing in this thread, I have to say, I for one welcome our Bash fon Ronsenburg overlord!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUYJZ3Odm7o
Seriously, I never even wasted a thought that he looks too effeminate or whatever in XII.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
This. Nobody gripes why H.R. Giger's work all looks the same. I think certain artists should be allowed to dabble in what they like best, their innate style. I love the hell out of Toriyama's art. It has a charm to it that is distinctively it's own. I wouldn't want him to change it for ANYBODY.
Green Mamba
Member
No one should replace anyone. If Final Fantasy is supposed to be about ever change, they should start getting new main character designers every game. We've had enough of Nomura and Yoshida in the past few years.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Yup, went back and read the comment. They don't all look like Goku. They look like other DBZ characters. So the joke is still apt.
R
Retro_
Unconfirmed Member
You're right.
Problem with Toriyama's work is that his style hasn't really evolved at all in over 10 years.
Which just seems abnormal for a professional artist
Even his recent one shots look like he was still drawing Dragonball only yesterday
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Seriously, this. Complaining that FF's characters are "too pretty" is down there with port-begging for me in terms of annoying fan demands. The games that Nomura's worked on, collectively, look very different from a lot of other games on the market that can all blend together. There's no mistaking what he's contributed to. I can't wait for FFXV and KHIII, and I hope they continue with him full-force (while using other designers to spice things up.)
Yup. The whole tone of this thread basically sounds like "Why can't I be mega-jacked bald hulk tough guy when I play FF?!?!?"
To come back to OP's point:
10 Medi, 5 Sci Fi .. we are not even on par yet! xD . Edit: I should point out that the latter titles are not purely sci-fi or medi.
- FF 1- Medi
- FF 2 - Medi
- FF 3 - Medi
- FF 4 - Medi
- FF 5 - Medi
- FF 6 - Medi
- FF 7 - Sci Fi
- FF 8 - Sci Fi
- FF 9 - Medi
- FF 10 - Sci fi
- FF 11 - Medi
- FF 12 - Medi
- FF 13 - Sci Fi
- FF 14 - Medi
- FF 15 - Sci Fi
10 Medi, 5 Sci Fi .. we are not even on par yet! xD . Edit: I should point out that the latter titles are not purely sci-fi or medi.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Yeah, I really like how a good chunk of 'em are mixed and dabble in both. I think some people are just way too uptight about what setting/theme the games can or can't have.
Moon_frogger
Member
Nomura is gross. Since when was it trendy to defend his trashy style? He's like the nickel back of jrpg character designs Forget the usual complaints. His art style is toothless. His characters are focus tested mannequins with ridiculous clothes and he probably hasn't had a truly original character design since ffviii. The series has various other problems but canning him and allowing the series to try something new Would be a step in the right direction. Seriously I am shocked that he has so many supporters here on gaf. I guess there's no accounting for taste
Choppasmith
Member
Absolutely. It's not perfect, it lacks polish because it was made with a smaller team and budget, but it really has the heart of a classic FF. It's like a blend of IX and XII. I really think it could have been XIII if Sakaguchi was still in charge.
Plus, he beat LR to the punch with the costume system.
EDIT Also: Syrenne beats Lightning by a country mile.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Okay, point to me where the posts are asking for space marines.
As is evident by your insanely idiotic post.
If anything is trendy it's blaming Nomura for things in which he has no involvement.
B-but Kingdom Hearts?
MagnaderAlpha
Member
He's been in the business for a LONG time. Like Amano, I think when you reach a certain point, your style stops evolving and becomes the trademark style and reason why people hire you. Like I said earlier, I'm sure Square hired Amano as the artist for the FF series because they wanted that style of art to be associated with their games. Same for Enix and Dragon Quest. Hell, I doubt Psygnosis would've contracted Roger Dean if they didn't want THAT kind of art representing their product, Shadow of the Beast.
Hell, if I ever made a story or video game, and had money to spend, I'd hire Toriyama to do the character designs and concept art. Dude has catchy character art.
LOL, it shouldn't be a race to see who has more. Setting should vary depending on the story and what's best suited for that story. Square doesn't have to aim for MORE sci-fi FFs simply because there are more medieval ones by default and they gotta even out the odds.
Most fans couldn't care less about the visuals, Square have always been great in that department. It's more the direction the series has been taken, that's an art style they've decided to adopt, you'll have to deal with it. It's become a signature art style for the series, nothing wrong with that. Not everyone will like it, i want them to make a good FF again, gameplay wise, then they can decide to experiment visually.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
You don't have to even try to look to immediately find posts throwing out stuff like "OH GOD I HAVE TO BE PRETTY AGAIN?" or any variation of that complaining about effeminate looking male characters. We have an endless gaggle of videogames that offer the other, opposite extreme. So the fuck what if FF & KH (just 2 franchises) consistently play up the other end of the spectrum? These games have carved out their own look and I think for the most part it suits them just fine.
For once, I'm actually glad SE's so insular and just does whatever it wants to do, cause the "art/taste police" on here can be ridiculous.
You, like, don't get it man. It's so trendy to hate nomura that it made full circle to the other side. He's a meta-meta outcast.
Yeah, I agree with that.
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Guys, all I can say is, try to look beyond the character design, try to dive into the story, the music and the landscape, then decide. But don't deny a banana because it got brown spots....
Bad analogy is bad.
Moon_frogger
Member
lol wut....let's get this straight
A. He's been the main character designer for the series since vii
But
B. can't be held responsible for said character designs.
Yeah, it's my post that's idiotic. Right. If you're going to be insulting, at least try to have some semblance of a rational point to back it up.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
How are you not banned yet? This is the third post in under 10 pages where you spread massive amounts of FUD, generalize and condescend to other members on NeoGAF and refuse to respond to other users directly talking to you. This is shit posting at it's finest, and I am amazed you're still doing it.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
There have been too many posts in various threads over time that have blamed Nomura for "single handedly destroying the FF franchise." I do agree that they should rotate more designers for FF games, but there is nothing wrong with Nomura. He's a very competent and talented artist and designer. SE just uses him a lot (I don't mind) but it causes people to unfairly lash out on his work.
Final Fantasy became more contemporary rather than the theatrical or Shakespearian tone that earlier FF games had. Most if not all FF games are cheesy but I find the "non-Nomura" ones felt more authentic at least to me cause it was aping theatre. The other FFs were aping japanese pop culture like Jrock, Jpop and teen dramas. I don't have much interest in stories which are being melodramatic just for the sake of being melodramatic.
If you're going to engage in conversation, do try to read the conversation which is going on.
And if you're going to insult my taste for liking Nomura, don't be surprised if I'm less than friendly in response.
Funny you should mention Shakespeare, but FF15's orginal trailers quote hamlet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkG-Jtfkbxg
"There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
I mean, I disagree with your post entirely about FFs being more theater than later ones, but maybe ff15 will be more up your alley.
Excuse me for ranting, but here are my musings.
My problem with FFs art style is that the medium has changed, not necessarily the art or design itself.
And, from my last attempt to return to the universe with FF13/14, I don't care for what I see. I need my wriggle room, and I am no longer being given one. I find the stories and characters as they are presented to me insufferable and annoying, awkward and ridiculous, uninteresting and unrelatable. And they may have been the same back in the day, who knows. I probably just didn't know or notice, back then.
Getting more to the point now.
I also hate overengineered and obviously impractical stuff. My mind screams at me constantly when they are on screen (and - see above - they are). KISS is one of my favourite design principles, and practicality one of my highest rating aspects.
This problem only appeared because more powerful machines allowed for more polygons and thus more freedom for designers, leading to some sort of vicious circle where artwork would become increasingly flamboyant because the artists can run wild, as they are prone to. It's that streak that makes them artists, after all.
Also, I got older, moreexperienced cynical, and less willing to put up with bullshit. I can't identify with designed-to-be-young characters anymore, and I have no interest in cookie cutter antics.
That's my take on why the "visual identity" now matters when it did not before, and why modern FF games as a whole no longer interest me. The designs per se haven't changed in any meaningful manner, I think.
My problem with FFs art style is that the medium has changed, not necessarily the art or design itself.
Jury's still out on that, although it doesn't look good tbqh. =P
With pre-FF7 games, all you had were tiny blobs of pixels shaped vaguely like LEGO people. The game was clearly a representation of what went down "for real", so just like when reading a book, my phantasy filled out the gaps. For that reason I liked Amano and "his take" (heh) on the universe, because character pictures aside, what actually happened in the game and how people looked was pretty much up to my imagination.
Fast forward to the 3D era, and more importantly, the FMV era. There is no wiggle room there. This is no longer viable to be experienced using the "book approach", since the frequent cutscenes and comparatively high level of graphical detail (as well as improved animation and whatnot) prohibit any individual "perspective" to events and characters. It leaves very little to the imagination: You get what you see.
Fast forward to the 3D era, and more importantly, the FMV era. There is no wiggle room there. This is no longer viable to be experienced using the "book approach", since the frequent cutscenes and comparatively high level of graphical detail (as well as improved animation and whatnot) prohibit any individual "perspective" to events and characters. It leaves very little to the imagination: You get what you see.
And, from my last attempt to return to the universe with FF13/14, I don't care for what I see. I need my wriggle room, and I am no longer being given one. I find the stories and characters as they are presented to me insufferable and annoying, awkward and ridiculous, uninteresting and unrelatable. And they may have been the same back in the day, who knows. I probably just didn't know or notice, back then.
Getting more to the point now.
I also hate overengineered and obviously impractical stuff. My mind screams at me constantly when they are on screen (and - see above - they are). KISS is one of my favourite design principles, and practicality one of my highest rating aspects.
This problem only appeared because more powerful machines allowed for more polygons and thus more freedom for designers, leading to some sort of vicious circle where artwork would become increasingly flamboyant because the artists can run wild, as they are prone to. It's that streak that makes them artists, after all.
Also, I got older, more
That's my take on why the "visual identity" now matters when it did not before, and why modern FF games as a whole no longer interest me. The designs per se haven't changed in any meaningful manner, I think.
DryEyeRelief
Member
One extreme doesn't justify the other.
In fact, Nomura defined the visual 3D indentity with his FF VII sketches. His designs are more plastic compared to Amano's, easier to work with in 3D, I would imagine.
So I guess for those who have a problem with Nomura's style have one with the very native 3D look of Final Fantasy since the 90s. It's not something that was introduced after Final Fantasy IX and the style was not even used in every main game since then but in plenty.
So the only other option besides effeminate characters is space marines?
Most of the people who don't like the art style of modern FF games also tend to be people who played the older ones and don't like the change in direction. Yeah, it's nice to have variety, but some of us would like a different approach because it's a franchise we grew up with and care about. You seem to like it, nothing wrong with that, but neither is wanting something different.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Nope. It corrects and balances things out. I completely disagree with the implication of your statement though. I don't think Nomura's stuff is that extreme. But let's pretend for a second that it's the absolute, deepest and farthest edge of androgynous design. So what? It's a videogame with fantastical settings and stories. What would be so wrong with having flamboyant and over the top characters in such a project? This is just people having a case of "this doesn't conform to what I like, so I'm gonna dismiss it as 'bad taste.'"
I really don't see the what's effeminate or androgynous about Nomura's characters.
Kula (Kuja?) though? I played it in Japanese and thought it was a woman. I was like...wut? when I played it in English and realized my mistake. Seriously. Shakira would be jealous of those hips.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
IX: Minaba, Murase, Itahana
X: Nomura
XI: many people
XII: Yoshida
XIII: Nomura and Ikeda
XIV: Yoshida
XV: Nomura and Ferrari
How is Nomura the main character designer for the series?
Moon_frogger
Member
Lol you've got to be joking. Because I have a strong opinion that differs from yours I'm condescending? I wasn't even directly referring to any one poster. What about the guy who directly attacked me and called my post idiotic. Anger issues much? Lol
I think you're taking this whole discussion a little seriously. Maybe it's time to back away from the keyboard and take a little breather. I can't be banned for staying 'nomura is trash' no matter how much you don't like it. Give your head a shake