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[Skilletor]

The art was always anime, not that I really knew what that was back then. What I'm saying though is that the sprites were just the sprites, and as relatively detailed as they were, they were still their own thing distinct from anime. There was space there for you to fill in the blanks, or at least not be overpowered by an exact portrayal of a style that you may or may not like. If the game came out today, it would look just like an episode of DBZ, and I find that infinitely less appealing than the sprite work it has due to coming out in '95 (or whenever that was).

But that's just your interpretation. Chrono's sprite looked like a DBZ character. It just seems to me as if you weren't exposed to very much anime and so didn't think it looked like a lot of other stuff out there. It did. It's just that the "blanks" for you hadn't been filled in by stuff that already existed, but for me, they had been and that's what I saw. Anime got more popular and you yourself had more references from which to draw.

For an example of what Chrono might have looked like on current gen stuff, look at Blue Dragon

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

You do realize FF sales have only been decreasing since FFVII, right? Clearly it's not just him who's put off by FF's immature schtick.

In Japan yes, each title sells less, but in the US it's a patchwork, with only 7 and 10 selling notably above the rest.

 

[StuBurns]

You do realize FF sales have only been decreasing since FFVII, right? Clearly it's not just him who's put off by FF's immature schtick.

That's not true. X sold better than VIII and IX. XIII sold better than X-2 and XII.

 

[Skilletor]

That's not true. X sold better than VIII and IX.

Didn't 13 sell more than 12?

 

[Fandangox]

Here's another example of good super-fantasy character and costume design

Super detailed but purposefully restrained before it went straight into visual nonsense territory.

I love the artstyle and art direction of this game soooooo much.

I hope someday there is a sequel, the game had lots of potential.

 

[Burt]

But that's just your interpretation. Chrono's sprite looked like a DBZ character. It just seems to me as if you weren't exposed to very much anime and so didn't think it looked like a lot of other stuff out there. It did. It's just that the "blanks" for you hadn't been filled in by stuff that already existed, but for me, they had been and that's what I saw. Anime got more popular and you yourself had more references from which to draw.

For an example of what Chrono might have looked like on current gen stuff, look at Blue Dragon

That's the point. There was room for interpretation.

 

[Skilletor]

That's the point. There was room for interpretation.

If you say so. Chrono was obviously a DBZ character. That somebody didn't have that interpretation just means they hadn't been exposed to much DBZ, imo. That just means interpretation is open to experience, which is still true today. But that doesn't mean Chrono didn't look any less like Goku or Vegeta. Just that you didn't know that because you hadn't been exposed to it.

 

[Meccanical]

Didn't 13 sell more than 12?

No, but some folk would have you believe that.

 

[Village]

For an example of what Chrono might have looked like on current gen stuff, look at Blue Dragon

* the chances of a sequel are zilch*

I am the sad.

 

[H_Prestige]

In Japan yes, each title sells less, but in the US it's a patchwork, with only 7 and 10 selling notably above the rest.

You can break down regions all you want, but in the end total sales are what matter. And only half of the people who played VII are still playing the serious. And as long as SE doesn't realize what it is that made people love the series in the first place, it's only going to keep losing fans.

That's not true. X sold better than VIII and IX. XIII sold better than X-2 and XII.

Blip on the radar. The trend has been clearly downwards. You can make a graph if you don't believe me.

FFVII: 10 million
FFXIII: 5 million

It's a pretty smooth line connecting those endpoints.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Didn't 13 sell more than 12?

Yeah. Interestingly the FF's that people view as a more traditional FF look (FFIX and FFXII) are the worst selling 3D mainline FF's.

 

[StuBurns]

Didn't 13 sell more than 12?

US sales:
01 - 780k
04 - 340k
06 - 430k
07 - 2.7M
08 - 2M
09 - 1.5M
10 - 2.5M
10-2 - 1.7M
12 - 1.7M
13 - 2.5M
13-2 - 990k

 

[WolvenOne]

Of course, I'm just showing that the FF IX - XIV comparison is not a far stretch at all.

Two diferent designs, but you get the idea.

Huh, I didn't realize that my character resembled a realistic version of Zidane. XD

Granted, that's probably mostly the net effect of the starting gear for that race.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

The art was always anime, not that I really knew what that was back then. What I'm saying though is that the sprites were just the sprites, and as relatively detailed as they were, they were still their own thing distinct from anime. There was space there for you to fill in the blanks, or at least not be overpowered by an exact portrayal of a style that you may or may not like. If the game came out today, it would look just like an episode of DBZ, and I find that infinitely less appealing than the sprite work it has due to coming out in '95 (or whenever that was).

The excuse of pixelart sprites are better because they leave more to the imagination is like saying a game has more soul, basically garbage. You could say that about the huge pixels of atari, but the majority of pixelart in that era were artists trying to draw the 2d concept art under the sprite limits. And the pixelart in chrono trigger is actually a really good representation of the Toriyama character designs in that game, it would be stupid to say they didn't already look like anime.

Its ok Akira Toriyama forgot about her too.

Its sad because its the girl design I love most from Toriyama, and I also liked a lot the character when I was a kid.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

All those SaGa artwork just makes me sad. SE should do a higher budget SaGa game for the new gen. Bring the open world concept even further with a higher budget and tone down the crazy gameplay system by a bit and you can sell it as Japan's own take on Open World RPGs.

 

[H_Prestige]

Yeah. Interestingly the FF's that people view as a more traditional FF look (FFIX and FFXII) are the worst selling 3D mainline FF's.

FFXIII is in the exact same ballpark as IX and XII, around 5 million each. It is no where near VIII or X.

 

[Esura]

That's the point. There was room for interpretation.

The sprites in those games are incredibly distinctive and incredibly anime. Also the box art for it wasn't even "Westernized" like a lot of other localized Japanese games at the time. Even the art on the cover of the cartridge was the same. I honestly don't see how there was any room for interpretation.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

You can break down regions all you want, but in the end total sales are what matter. And only half of the people who played VII are still playing the serious. And as long as SE doesn't realize what it is that made people love the series in the first place, it's only going to keep losing fans.



Blip on the radar. The trend has been clearly downwards. You can make a graph if you don't believe me.

FFVII: 10 million
FFXIII: 5 million

It's a pretty smooth line connecting those endpoints.

Actually, you're off. FFVII only sold 9 million, and XIII sold 6 million. And the trend of consistent downward sales only exists in Japan, in USA it's actually very consistent with XIII being one of the best selling. World-wide FF is a patchwork with only VII, VIII, and X rising significantly above the rest. In fact, if you look at this chart and remove the 3 most popular titles, you see a very steady trend upward as each entry sells a little more than the last. Now does that mean every title is better? Not at all, but this "FF is doomed!" narrative has no weight outside of Japan.

 

[Reneledarker]

I like FFXV characters, I just dislike what they are wearing, specially Noctis. I do not mind them using designers clothes, in fact I would like more games to take inspiration or hire a designer to do the clothes. I just dislike Roen designs. I would much prefer that Nomura used Julius or YY:

 

[SolidSnakex]

FFXIII is in the exact same ballpark as IX and XII, around 5 million each. It is no where near VIII or X.

XIII is over 6m. It's not up to VII or VIII but it's more in line with X. But even if we go with your numbers it doesn't change my point about IX and XII being the worst selling games in the 3D series (obviously excluding the MMO's and direct sequels).

 

[Kuren]

I was never a huge fan of Nomura's style. It was cool at first but then I realized how it affected the stories and obscure and shallow presentation of FF. Honestly, anything that Akihiko Yoshida touches is pretty darn awesome...

Everybody who used to love FF or still does should relly go play FF14 A Realm Reborn. It's ironically a proper FF game even though it's an MMO. And as well, go play 4 Heroes of Light while we wait for Bravely Default to come to NA.

 

[StuBurns]

I like FFXV characters, I just dislike what they are wearing, specially Noctis.

Never has a video game character been so finely dressed.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I was never a huge fan of Nomura's style. It was cool at first but then I realized how it affected the stories and obscure and shallow presentation of FF. Honestly, anything that Akihiko Yoshida touches is pretty darn awesome...

Everybody who used to love FF or still does should relly go play FF14 A Realm Reborn. It's ironically a proper FF game even though it's an MMO. And as well, go play 4 Heroes of Light while we wait for Bravely Default to come to NA.

Huh? What do you mean it affected the story? Do you mean your interpretation of the story?

 

[Burt]

If you say so. Chrono was obviously a DBZ character. That somebody didn't have that interpretation just means they hadn't been exposed to much DBZ, imo. That just means interpretation is open to experience, which is still true today. But that doesn't mean Chrono didn't look any less like Goku or Vegeta. Just that you didn't know that because you hadn't been exposed to it.

Are this depiction of Crono

and this depiction of Crono

exactly the same?

If not, that means that a person's mind has to take a leap in some direction to move from one to the other. You can't tell me that everyone is obligated to take the exact same leap as you to the exact same endpoint. There is no leap in modern JRPGs because the detail leaves nothing to the imagination.

This is getting off point though, because I was talking about JRPGs in general, and we've gravitated towards a single JRPG with sprites that are more detailed than average and arguably capable of showing more detail than even early PS1 3D models.

Instead, look at it this way.

If Square Enix remade FFVI right now in next gen fidelity, how many people would complain about it not looking how they imagined? Fucking everyone. People already do this about FFVII and the Advent Children models. They could bring back Amano, have him complete his FFVI aesthetic vision in all its Nvidia Titan-powered modern glory, and people would bitch because Locke doesn't look like how they want. They saw the sprites and pictured him the way they wanted to, but that's no longer an option. The space for the mind to add on and fill in the pixels is gone, and now we're left with an near-perfect representation of the artists' style and goal, which oftentimes ends up as something that people aren't happy with and is why the east/west art clash wasn't a thing back in the day.

 

[H_Prestige]

Actually, you're off. FFVII only sold 9 million, and XIII sold 6 million. And the trend of consistent downward sales only exists in Japan, in USA it's actually very consistent with XIII being one of the best selling. World-wide FF is a patchwork with only VII, VIII, and X rising significantly above the rest. In fact, if you look at this chart and remove the 3 most popular titles, you see a very steady trend upward as each entry sells a little more than the last. Now does that mean every title is better? Not at all, but this "FF is doomed!" narrative has no weight outside of Japan.

Those are shipped numbers for XIII. Actually sold is closer to 5 million. And VII sold another million on PSN.

Those numbers for XIII-2 are also telling. Unlike X-2 that game didn't have an excuse for selling so much less than its predecessor. It means people really just didn't like FFXIII and didn't want to play a sequel.

 

[MYE]

Never played The Last Story, but the designs and art are fucking amazing.
Is it worth a play?

I'll find out soon enough. Just ordered it online

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Pretty much all of Akira Toriyama's characters look the same.

That joke got old years ago.

None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Here's another example of good super-fantasy character and costume design

Super detailed but purposefully restrained before it went straight into visual nonsense territory.

I like it, but I don't agree with the notion that there is one formulaic how-to approach in fantasy character/costume designs.

 

[Village]

That joke got old years ago.

None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

They actually kinda doo.

 

[Jinfash]

Here's another example of good super-fantasy character and costume design

Super detailed but purposefully restrained before it went straight into visual nonsense territory.

It may not have the same pretty-boyish flare, but I'd still consider these overdesigned and in line with other fantasy JRPGs. But I'll agree they're one of the least offenders, if only for their non-distracting color palette.

 

[LogicStep]

They look like anime characters to me. I got no problem with it.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

Those are shipped numbers for XIII. Actually sold is closer to 5 million. And VII sold another million on PSN.

Those numbers for XIII-2 are also telling. Unlike X-2 that game didn't have an excuse for selling so much less than its predecessor. It means people really just didn't like FFXIII and didn't want to play a sequel.

Serious citation needed. That already can't be true since it's known that XIII-2 shipped 3 million and then underperformed. XIII definitely shipped more than.

“The combined total units shipped for the two titles was recorded to be 9.7 million units,” Kitase said.

Source.

The numbers I posted are much more accurate.


Edit: Btw, I wasn't neccessarily asking for the FFVII PSN proof, because I can believe that. Just disputing that FFXIII sold under 6 million.

 

[Savitar]

Not going to lie, one of the big problems I got with Final Fantasy these days is how samey the designs have been for some time now. Final Fantasy games do always look great.....but certain designs and aesthetics are simply not my thing and why a lot of the appeal of the franchise has greatly diminished for me.

With great stories one might be able to overlook such things but at this point the plots for the games have been under whelming.

 

[Shadow780]

Never has a video game character been so finely dressed.

My money is still waiting to buy that $5000 suit.

 

[Mr. RHC]

It really surprises me to read that the mere physical appearence of some characters, and we've been mostly talking main characters so far, is such a big let down for some that they wouldn't even touch the game.

Never has a video game character been so finely dressed.

"..and never did one use the new fragrance for men and... chocobos." Why do I imagine now that the game will be a dress up game like Lighting Returns Final Fantasy XIII

Spoiler

to Gamestop.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

That joke got old years ago.


None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

Yes they do

 

[StuBurns]

"..and never did one use the new fragrance for men and... chocobos." Why do I imagine now that the game will be a dress up game like Lighting Returns Final Fantasy XIII

Spoiler

to Gamestop.

I don't see how anyone can be against people using nice clothing in a video game. Moreover, being able to choose which clothing a character is wearing. I wish I could have played all of FFVIII in Squall's trainee SeeD outfit.

Lightning looks moronic in all her outfits for the new game, but just being able to inject some of your own taste into a character is actually really nice. Any time a game allows me to do so, I will. I don't think it's like 'playing dress up' with dolls, or whatever cliche people would assign it.

 

[Village]

I don't see how anyone can be against people using nice clothing in a video game. Moreover, being able to choose which clothing a character is wearing. I wish I could have played all of FFVIII in Squall's trainee SeeD outfit.

.

Protip: wanna sell me a video games, make that an option. Increases my chances of buying it because I like playing dress up.

 

[Mr. RHC]

I don't see how anyone can be against people using nice clothing in a video game. Moreover, being able to choose which clothing a character is wearing. I wish I could have played all of FFVIII in Squall's trainee SeeD outfit.

Lightning looks moronic in all her outfits for the new game, but just being able to inject some of your own taste into a character is actually really nice. Any time a game allows me to do so, I will. I don't think it's like 'playing dress up' with dolls, or whatever cliche people would assign it.

If it is a very story driven game, I think the clothes should be appropriate. If it is part of the job system like in FF XIV go for it. If it's a Metal Gear with easter eggs elements and 4th wall and so on, why not.
I'd also think it would be innovative if characters regularly change there clothes in RPG's just because over time, people change the clothes.

But I don't want it necessarily in a game just for the sake of it being out of character. There's no need for Noctis to run around in hunting clothes all the time. He is a prince after all, so it makes perfect sense that his outfit looks noble during certain occasions.

 

[Ol No Bones]

All I know is that I literally have no interest in what was my most beloved franchises ever. It's hard to narrow down all the problems but it is definetly missing the charm it had in the Nintendo and early playstation days.

 

[Skilletor]

That joke got old years ago.

None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

I honestly thought you were joking. Almost all of those characters look the same. The first one could be used as a meme.

Are this depiction of Crono

and this depiction of Crono

If Square Enix remade FFVI right now in next gen fidelity, how many people would complain about it not looking how they imagined? Fucking everyone. People already do this about FFVII and the Advent Children models. They could bring back Amano, have him complete his FFVI aesthetic vision in all its Nvidia Titan-powered modern glory, and people would bitch because Locke doesn't look like how they want. They saw the sprites and pictured him the way they wanted to, but that's no longer an option. The space for the mind to add on and fill in the pixels is gone, and now we're left with an near-perfect representation of the artists' style and goal, which oftentimes ends up as something that people aren't happy with and is why the east/west art clash wasn't a thing back in the day.

I thought Advent Children looked great. And if FF6 remake had stuff that looked like this:

I would be fucking ecstatic. But you're right. There's no pleasing a lot of fans, as is evident by this thread.

In conclusion: Nomura is the best thing at SE right now. Can't wait for KH3 and FF15.

 

[destrudo]

I don't know if we can say that Final Fantasy has adopted a "new" visual identity as much as we can say that we're just getting a better look at the artists' intent, but I will say that I'm liking it less and less as time goes on. Except for the guy that did Tactics, XII, and XIV. God damn, that guy is amazing.

I think there's some truth to that. If you look at the Amano artwork for the older games the characters are pretty elaborate and effeminate looking, but that didn't really translate into the 8 and 16 bit graphics. Generally though I think the series had a pretty big change in direction after Nomura took over, and even more so when Sakaguichi left. Japanese taste has been changing over the years as well, and so have Nomura's designs.

Ideally though I would love a new game to be hyper stylized to look like some of Amano's artwork.

 

[Retro_]

None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

If you say so

and I wasn't aware it was a joke

Just play DQ9. Gives you all the options Toriyama pulls from when he does character designs in the character creator.(I MADE UUB!)

 

[YoungOne]

Yea, sure I have no problem with it.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

None of these characters look the same and certainly not like Goku.

Yeah some of them look like Bulma and Trunks.

 

[zashga]

Barely distinguishable huh? So you're telling me you cannot tell the difference between all these characters?

Because if that's the case you may need your eyes checked.

How many of those are playable characters? I don't really care about NPC designs.

 

[StuBurns]

If it is a very story driven game, I think the clothes should be appropriate. If it is part of the job system like in FF XIV go for it. If it's a Metal Gear with easter eggs elements and 4th wall and so on, why not.
I'd also think it would be innovative if characters regularly change there clothes in RPG's just because over time, people change the clothes.

But I don't want it necessarily in a game just for the sake of it being out of character. There's no need for Noctis to run around in hunting clothes all the time. He is a prince after all, so it makes perfect sense that his outfit looks noble during certain occasions.

It depends what you mean by out of character. I'm not a fan of DLC, I don't like to feel obligated to spend more than the normal price to get what I perceive as the full experience, however, I also understand and accept that these games are prohibitively expensive to produce. Versus XIII has been kicking around at a concept level since around 2003, regardless of how slowly the development staff grew, it has to be releasing with a production cost of around a hundred million dollars. Add in marketing, and you're looking at five million full priced sales just to get in the black on the project. If they can cheaply produce outfits for the gang, charge $5 a piece, and help take some of the unbelievable production budget burden off the regular game, as much as it's irritating to me, it's an easy pill to swallow.

As for changing clothes on their own, GTA5 does it, and I hate it.

 

[Skinpop]

I like FFXV characters, I just dislike what they are wearing, specially Noctis. I do not mind them using designers clothes, in fact I would like more games to take inspiration or hire a designer to do the clothes. I just dislike Roen designs. I would much prefer that Nomura used Julius or YY:

I don't particularly like the idea of game characters being styled like fashion models(unless it serves the story), it bothers me when a solider who is out fighting is dressed like a club kid, or like a clown(tidus).

I guess I don't like the idea that a FF character is not only some kind of warrior-hero but also a fashionista. I also think the rendering style works against them when doing these kind of over the top designs. If they went for a more animesque/painted style they can get away with so much more. As it stands currently the porcelain semi-realistic style make the outfits look like cosplay outfits instead of actual functional clothes that people would wear in these FF-universes. This combined with the samey faces/bone-structures, perfect hairstyles reminiscent of host-boys kinda nudges the FF style away from anime and into jdrama/jpop(talento) territory. Not that they have to go for an anime style rendering but going by the concepts I think that would work better.

If they had to collaborate with designers I'd love to see som ann demeulemeester, carpe diem, pledge and jil sander stuff

 

[Retro_]

Yeah some of them look like Bulma and Trunks.

Not to mention that two of them are twins in the very first image.

 

[MYE]

I like it, but I don't agree with the notion that there is one formulaic how-to approach in fantasy character/costume designs.

I dont agree with that either. Never said there should be one