Solid Samus
Banned
Nintendo has plenty of eggs in the fridge dawg
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SM3DW sells 107k in Japan, lowest 3D Mario debut ever
- Thread starter zomgbbqftw
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Nintendo has plenty of eggs in the fridge dawg
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Or maybe because developers didn't want to make cheap, mobile games that wouldn't support them. And unless I'm mistaken MS had strong third-party support at launch that Sony.
uh, no. the point is that motion controls are part of every gaming device now, not that they're the main driving focus behind every game being designed.
yeah. the amount of posts with 'i won't be caught dead touching a video game screen' was pretty embarrassing even back then. it's worse now that it's so mainstream.
the rainfall stuff was terrible. it should have been a no-brainer to bring those over sooner, and branch out to other localization companies if they needed to do so. there's no reason other crap is still exclusive to the wii in japan when it was languishing in the us. 2011 would have been a good time to release disaster: day of crisis, another code r, takt of magic, captain rainbow, etc.
i don't think it was about noa being lazy or anything either. i think it all has to do with purse strings and japan unwilling to spend money on localization projects if it meant other companies touching them.
So did Sega at one time. The hen stops laying them, they run out.
Hmm I think I predicted 125k-150k and felt I was being too pessimistic. I think it launched lower than Pikmin 3. But more worrisome is that it didn't really move many U units at all.
I really don't know that it's the hardware that is the main problem with the U. I think the initial software strategy was backwards. They released a bunch of titles to appeal to the casual crowd, but the casual crowd doesn't pay top dollar for new consoles. They wait until mass market price. The hardcore gamer willing to early adopt isn't about to be wooed by 2D Mario or Nintendo Land. Or Wii Party / Fit / Sports.
I just don't know at this point. There's decent buzz for the U in the forums (America mostly) but Nintendo really need to do a Direct to show fence-sitters that the thing is going to be supported past 2014. New trailers for Mario Kart, Smash, X, maybe show off some new things too.
I really don't know that it's the hardware that is the main problem with the U. I think the initial software strategy was backwards. They released a bunch of titles to appeal to the casual crowd, but the casual crowd doesn't pay top dollar for new consoles. They wait until mass market price. The hardcore gamer willing to early adopt isn't about to be wooed by 2D Mario or Nintendo Land. Or Wii Party / Fit / Sports.
I just don't know at this point. There's decent buzz for the U in the forums (America mostly) but Nintendo really need to do a Direct to show fence-sitters that the thing is going to be supported past 2014. New trailers for Mario Kart, Smash, X, maybe show off some new things too.
Solid Samus
Banned
I think he meant 10% in sales and not 10% as a quip toward your other post.
And Sunshine might have done well initially but nearly every 3D Mario besides it had much healthier long tail sales which (as far as I can tell) would put Sunshine in the 'hobbyists flocked to it, and partially because first 3D Mario after 64' category, something more comparable to how AAA games on other platforms perform than with how Mario games have been performing over the last few years. Could be wrong though
pants
Member
Colors, Generations, Racing Transformed - Everyone loves Sonic again brah
Yup. Not just the rainfall games but a handful of other titles that would have made their first party output more diverse in NA. I'm still shaking my head at their failure to bring over the Fatal Frame franchise. Nintendo's decision making confuses me a lot of the time.
Gucci Messiah
Banned
If this won't force Nintendo to get their heads out of their butts then what will?
I'm not saying that we should abandon the traditional console industry. In my opinion, the Wii did a good job of appealing to both audiences and those hardcore gamers who weren't stuck up got a great deal of fun out of the console. It's only some hardcore gamers and the traditional game industry that's stuck with this attitude that nothing can ever change, nothing can ever be good outside the strict model that has been established in the last decade. Only casual gamers can enjoy casual games, and only hardcore gamers can enjoy hardcore games, so let's keep them separate forever and ever.
Casual gamers might be more interested in mobile gaming, but the traditional console industry is not doing itself any favors by being close minded and avoiding this audience. You do not think the industry is in a crisis, so nothing I say will ever change your mind, but I keep on seeing the industry increasingly push itself in a corner to the point that eventually we'll be a "change or die" situation. The industry needs casuals, whether it likes it or not.
metalslimer
Member
There is also the possibility that the same will happen to 3D World.Hobbyists will pick it up as its an awesome game, but the mainstream won't care. If 3D World follows Sunshine's path which is not out of the question the game won't reach 300k LTD. Let's see what happens next week though
Pikmin -102,188
WWHD- 31,154
Poimandres
Member
Hang on a sec... does anyone have Pikmin 3 launch numbers? That's just insane if it out sold Mario in it's first week.
I agree for the most part. Skyward Sword came out in 2011, but that was pretty much it. Anyway, a big part of why so little came out for the Wii after 2010 was that third-party sales were abysmal. With a handful of specific exceptions, they weren't great even when the Wii was at its peak. Publishers were making much more money on consoles like the PS2, Xbox 360, and DS, so the better software support and long legs of the hardware naturally followed.
The system was a hit almost entirely based on the fact that it did something completely new and interesting with the Wiimote, and Wii Sports was its killer app. There wasn't much left to carry it after the motion "fad" started to die down (for the record, I really like the motion controls and am sad that Nintendo didn't double-down on them with a Wiimote 2.0 bundled with Wii U instead of the gamepad).
And now their new fad attempt (the gamepad) hasn't worked, and Nintendo is selling something that's more like a Gamecube, except with even less third-party support, $100 more expensive than GCN was at launch, and vastly underpowered compared to its peer next-gen consoles.
Actually it was more the case that third-parties needed both MS and Sony rather than one or the other. To keep up with rising development costs, they needed the biggest traditional consumer base possible, and the only way to do that in third parties' eyes was to keep Sony and MS healthy.
But yeah, screw those stupid casual games, am I right brah?
Definitely hard to say, but Mario seems to somehow be an even bigger draw than 10 years ago. Obviously that's not reflected in these first week sales.
I do remember there being some major "holy shit it's the sequel to Super Mario 64" hype around Sunshine, and the GameCube already had a pretty solid line up at that point (if nothing else, it had Smash) with games like Wind Waker on the horizon. As much as I love my Wii U, 3D World is basically the reason I bought it. I'd imagine there are other people less willing to buy games like Pikmin 3 and W101 that are waiting for a little more incentive.
metalslimer
Member
Pikmin was on sale for less days than Mario, so yeah it outsold Mario in the timeframe
And there are plenty of games targeting them made. Even with the PS2, PS3, Xbox 360, you saw an increased focus on casuals and families when the price point became more viable for that market. I'm not sure what you're arguing, but the industry has been catering to both markets for a decade now, just at different points in the life cycle of the consoles. Microsoft just released a console with Kinect incorporated which they're likely going to use to target that very same market more aggressively when they're able to. They don't have to release a backwards machine like the Wii to target that market.
Not sure why everyone is blaming smw3d. WiiU is toxic. Easily one of the most toxic consoles in history. It's ability to make epically hilarious bomb numbers is uncany especially in Europe (seriously negative sales).
Don't expect much from mk and ssb. They'll sell ok considering how toxic the system is but they'll be the worst selling in franchise history.
WiiU will make the gcn software and hardware numbers look as daunting as look like the PS2s.
Don't expect much from mk and ssb. They'll sell ok considering how toxic the system is but they'll be the worst selling in franchise history.
WiiU will make the gcn software and hardware numbers look as daunting as look like the PS2s.
Solid Samus
Banned
The difference between Sunshine and 3D World being that Sunshine was a release that appealed to hobbyists and people open to the idea of a 3D Mario game (surprisingly -relatively- few at the time) due to nature of its design whereas significant work has gone into making sure that every single Mario game released after Sunshine is unimposing and accessible to the uninitiated. The main design change being a switch from more open world designs to more linear formats apparent in every 3D Mario since then. And 3D World for better or worse, despite being a great game in its own right, is the culmination of Nintendo's efforts to get everyone and their mother interested in the 3D series and as such I feel like it has a significantly higher chance of appealing to all sorts of Wii U's potential userbases and selling more over time than Sunshine, at least if the Wii U ever picks up which who knows. As usual though you bring some good points so I'll keep what you've said in mind and wait to see how this shit does
Poimandres
Member
This is just... wow. How can something like this happen?
The Librarian
Banned
Because Pikmin 3 is just that awesome.
Solid Samus
Banned
released during drought while people were looking for any good game to justify their purchase vs. released under similar circumstances albeit with a handful of other games filling the 'any good game plz' niche but a month before Christmas in prep for upcoming holiday shopping
Let's see how the holidays treat this game vs. Pikmin 3.
I think there will be a clear winner there.
Poimandres
Member
Well, yeah, of course it will sell better over the holidays. Pikmin 3 is relatively old by this point.
It just seems crazy to me that Pikmin 3 would outsell SM3DW at launch... I don't think anyone saw that coming!
No, there's not. You're making the same mistake as MS and Sony in thinking a few token mini-game compilation and half-assed peripheral is "good enough."
Your perception is that the ideal console is one that caters to hardcore gamers first and foremost and then somewhere down the line throws the casuals a bone or two. This is the exact mentality found in the PS4 (just look at their "This is for you" ads) and XBone (Kinect is a joke. Don't try to pass it off as a successor to the Wii). The reality is that in the industry need to switch to a model that's more balanced and considers both audiences' interests from day one. The traditional console industry is doing a terrible job of appealing to the casual audience by saying they're less important than the hardcore.
If we're going to appeal to both audiences equally, we need a console with a low barrier of entry. This does not mean making a "backwards machine," but one that makes only a modest improvement in graphics and excites audiences in other ways. This can mean motion controls, or some other innovation we haven't thought of yet. Using this model actually benefits both audiences because games are cheaper to make and third-parties can make greater risks. There will be more creativity in games overall, and if hardcore gamers get their heads out of there asses long enough, they might actually try one or two of them. They'll say it "backwards" and "last-gen" while calling any other technical advances as gimmicks, but they might even appreciate the wider variety of games.
Again, the Wii proved that the traditional console model is by no mean perfect, but we're never going to broach the subject as long as we continue to pretend the Wii was a fad.
Bluemercury
Member
Yeah give me five dude...
Anticitizen One
Banned
Absolutely but People here don't want to hear this though. This is the common feeling.
Solid Samus
Banned
Based on a handful of Gaffer's feelings among the vacuum known as Gaf.
but if there's any precedent it's that the last Mario game that introduced multiplayer into its design outsold the last 2 or 3 3D console Marios combined so I don't know where you're pulling that sentiment from man
and if you're going to use sales as evidence that it's not a game changer then I could say that gravity is not a game changer similarly and all that would result in is us both being wrong.
It's just one of those things where ymmv but if you simply can't see how 3D multiplayer Mario could appeal to anyone then I'd say stop projecting your particular gaming tastes onto the whole of Nintendo's userbase because that's just foolish
Anticitizen One
Banned
I think people here misunderstand why NSMB wii sold wel.There was a lot of pent up nostalgia and people were clamoring for a classic 2D Mario game it also brought back the koopa kids and came out for a system with a huge install base but few traditional games.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Iwata's gotta be shitting bricks right now, the Wolves are truly at his door.
Only America can save him now.
Only America can save him now.
There is something about the Wii U that Japan is not connecting with I think. Wonderful 101 had a disastrous launch in Japan and actually sold better in the US. Maybe its just the 3DS XL is all the nintendo fan needs for a system since those games sell in huge numbers and 3D Land did very well there.
Also 3D World has no real camera control that requires the right analog stick and with a bit of compromise could have actually come out on 3DS.
Also 3D World has no real camera control that requires the right analog stick and with a bit of compromise could have actually come out on 3DS.
Davey Cakes
Member
"How great Mario 64 was in comparison."
My mind is full of fuck.
(And I love Mario 64)
My mind is full of fuck.
(And I love Mario 64)
Sort of weird to think the Wii faded out only a couple years after the PS2. Hell, they presumably share their last FIFA title, and the PS2 got an additional PES title (unless PES 2014 also came out on the Wii).
Riposte
Member
Ambition isn't important in itself; ambition is striving to do something. It is only the end result we feel. What they are ambitious towards? Making a good game. Some degree of ambition is required to achieve good results, but only measuring the ambition (however this is even possible, or accurate based on the little you may know about game development) is placing the cart before the horse. You've become so nostalgic to earlier sensations of novelty that it has blinded you to the initial appeal of videogames. Not the newness they are wrapped in, but the fun derived from complex interactivity and feedback.
Even so, the whole idea that Mario is a consistent "game-changer" is a myth to begin with. It is clearly untrue from SMB1 to (actual) SMB2 to SMB3 to SMBW, none of these are giant leaps. SM64, of course, is. That's a jump you only make once though. Moreover, it is not like SM64 invented 3D gaming, it merely made a fine selection of 3D mechanics. It made the best of new fertile ground. From there on you get nothing even nearly comparable to being one of the first successful 3D games. Galaxy? There is nothing particularly special going on with Galaxy, nothing that makes it "game-changer" (especially the meaningful changing of other games and which are made). It has a gravity-themed mechanic (although sometimes it is little more than a visual effect, i.e. a "gimmick") that may or may not contribute to fun in a 3D platformer, but not much else.
Perhaps the failure here is that you've turned some of the previous Mario games into something "sacred" because you hold newness as something sacred; a feat of magic... a "game-changer". You care too much about "change" and not enough about "game". You want Miyamoto to be a goddamn wizard so that you can be a pre-teen again. This is your way with dealing with the natural process of us becoming desensitized to stimuli. Its the dumber, shallow way out; the only way that can provide instant gratification if you've been around the block. This rage against Mario has nothing to do with 2D or 3D platforming mechanics; it hardly has to do with any genre (as even genres eventually "grow old" and require an appreciation for depth and fine design to remain interesting if one cannot find something "new" from it). The jump to 3D has happened, and can only happen, once. You want to overcome decreasing returns, so much so that you overrated what "magic" was being done with Galaxy. To accept that there is no "magic", that "newness" isn't very important in itself, would kill a large part of the appeal of videogames for you. It would take away what you've been using them as vehicles for.
Don't know why I'm bothering though. Fallacy stacked upon fallacy would be the best way to define your style of argument. I think I saw you mention metacritic scores lol
EDIT: After looking at a quote, I see that I didn't write this very well. Too late to proofread this now, but w/e.
Solid Samus
Banned
Do you think that NSMB Wii would have sold anywhere near as well on the Wii without multiplayer? Because personally I doubt it. It's not just 'oh 2D Mario' that made millions of people take notice of an otherwise safe game (that faced the same exact situation you described 3D World facing - competing against a similar handheld title which sold more than any Mario game in decades, actually) and while multiplayer wasn't the defining factor let's not pretend it wasn't a factor
Freezie KO
Banned
And if there's one thing Iwata is good at, it's understanding the wants and needs of the American consumer. Someone should make him President of NoA.
Oh...
Your line of thought is what got Nintendo into the mess they're in. It's not possible to serve both the hardcore audience and the casual audience from day one without sacrificing something. And the hardcore audience is certainly more important than the casual one at the beginning. It's like you're learning nothing from the Wii U when one of their exact aims was to try just that. Good luck with these hopes because it will never happen. No games company is stupid enough to try what you're suggesting. Well Nintendo was, and we're seeing how that's turning out for them. Both Sony and Microsoft keep both audiences in mind, but are also smart enough to know when to prioritise.
shinra-bansho
Member
It's not about being "ideal," it's about targeting to an audience that will buy your product at a certain point in the cycle and at a certain price. The early adopter, the person willing to spend larger amounts of money for launch systems, is the enthusiast gamer who wants to play Assassin's Creed or Battlefield. As cost reduction allows price reduction it makes sense to begin expanding the target market to more casual/mass market users - more budget conscious consumers.
The Wii U is a confused product that tried to appeal to both audiences and failed to appeal to either.
Yeah, that's working well for Nintendo right now with the Wii U.
"Innovation" and "creativity" and "gameplay" have long been the flawed catchcry defense of underpowered hardware. Hardware power does not force developer homogeneity. Hardware power does not stifle "creativity." Hardware power does not, in itself, drive up development costs.
"Innovation" is not a synonym for changing control inputs.
airmangataosenai
Member
NSMB DS didn't have multiplayer and it sold better than the Wii version. So yes, it still would've sold well without multiplayer. Whether or not the amount would be substantially different we can never know but it still would've been a million seller for certain.
Solid Samus
Banned
NSMB was the first 2D Mario game in decades and it sold extraordinarily well on the highest selling Nintendo console of all time despite being an objectively bad Mario game in retrospect. NSMB Wii was a Mario game on a console where local multiplayer was practically the name of the game and part of NSMB Wii's appeal was that it wasn't a solitary, excluding experience - the first Mario game that could truly say as much. So the difference would have been there but yeah who knows how significant it would have been
Of course I can't ask Little Johnny Who Valued Being Able To Play With His Brother or Greg Who Doesn't Normally Play Video Games But Bought A Wii And Plays It With Friends if they would have bought or enjoyed the game as much without multiplayer because those guys aren't on GAF. Doesn't mean they don't exist and in fact they're the Wii's main userbases.
Goddamn, how do I hold all this Truth?
If that's what Nintendo was attempting to do with the Wii U, they fooled me. They certainly weren't thinking of casual gamers when they designed the Wii U tablet. They were not thinking about them when they put all their eggs in one basket at launch with Nintendoland. And they continue to not really understand the casual market when they delay Mario Kart and Wii U Fitness to after the holidays.
It's pretty huge presumption that you're making that it's not possible to cater to both audiences when none of the current gen consoles are even trying, and the Wii is the only console to do so. The Wii didn't get to 100 million off the backs of casual gamers alone. Yet, of course you don't think it's possible because you just dismiss the Wii as an anomaly. It's remarkable how easy to argue that the traditional console business model is the only one that works when we can ignore the biggest exception, isn't it?
No, hardware power alone doesn't stifle creativity, but when you combine it with a business model that caters exclusively to an audience that only settles for the most cutting-edge graphics (for consoles), than it certainly does lead to bad situations. Third-parties could just make a graphically competent game and put their resources elsewhere, but they'll never do it because they're trapped in an arms race with other third-parties to make the most stand-out graphics for their audience. Developing games is not a zero-sum situation, but third-parties know that graphics sells, and they're much easier to improve on and advertise than gameplay. So if it's a choice between putting more money into either graphics or gameplay (which it is. don't kid yourself into thinking third-parties have infinite resources and can just do "both"), they'll put their money into graphics almost every time.
I never said that the innovation had to related to the control scheme, but motion control are currently the most relevant of possible directions consoles can go outside of graphics, and there's still a lot of potential for creativity there. Hence, why I feel the "Wii 2" is a much better idea than the Wii U.
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I never questioned quality but for Lost World the results are telling and it isn't really Sega's fault either. It's the situation the Wii U is in right now.
Solid Samus
Banned
I nominate this for best post that will not see responses because it's easier to let it get buried than argue against it. Not that I've never done that but it'd take one hell of an inspired argument to dispute this.
Especially when certain numpties can just claim its a 3d land map pack and move on to their next Wii u troll post.
Agent Unknown
Member
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"
Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."
*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"
*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"
*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."
*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"
*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*
*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"
Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.
"We're SICK of NSMB series!!! We want something new!!"
Nintendo: "OK, here's Super Mario 3D Land."
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. Who cares that they brought back the Tanooki suit after 20 years? They're just playing on nostalgia."
*New trailers and extremely positive import impressions start rolling in, hype grows among the former naysayers, the game is released*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow! This is one of the greatest Mario games I've ever played! The level design is an excellent balance of new and old platforming philosophies and there's so much replay value!"
*A few years later, Wii U launches with NSMBU.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"We told you we're SICK of NSMB series!!! And why are you soooooo lazy with the multiplayer, Nintendo?! Why can't we play as another character like Peach instead of an extra Toad?!"
*At E3 2013 Nintendo debuts Super Mario 3D World which features Mario, Luigi, Toad and Peach all as playable characters in both single and multiplayer*
"Wow, the E3 videos for this look soooo boring, the levels look dull and uninspired. I loved 3D Land but this is just a cut and paste."
*Months later, a detailed new trailer showing more gameplay is released featuring all four characters running through vibrant new levels packed with a variety of exciting power ups.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"Wow!! This looks incredible! The game sure has come a long way from what we saw at E3! This looks like the Mario game of forever!"
*Game is released to rave reviews scoring 9s and 10s across the board. The game is praised heavily by gamers, the gaming media and non-gaming media alike for its creativity, level design, variety of power ups and collectibles and highly polished multiplayer mode and is also widely declared as a must-own title for the console. Personal tastes and preferences aside, the OT on GAF is filled with mostly positive discussion and overall enthusiasm.*
*Game tanks in Japan during its launch week due to low install base, initial sales are disappointing.*
Angry, Over the top, Jaded Nintendo GAF:
"THAT DOES IT! NOW NINTENDO IS PAYING, YOU SEE??!!! Well, you know what? I'm GLAD it's having bad sales in Japan!!! Oh, it's a step backwards and a painful lesson to be sure, but hopefully this is the catalyst that will cause Nintendo to finally come to their senses and learn that they're going to have to stop releasing all these sequels and rehashes that nobody asked for and aren't interested in seeing anymore!"
Oh well. Sales aside, like many others, I absolutely love the game myself.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Not only would I not dispute Riposte's post, I'd agree and go a lot farther: saying it applies to a whole array of fan arguments over most any long running game franchise, not just Mario.
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