JordanN
Banned
A 32x32 sprite is harder than modern 3D? I doubt it.
It's not suppose to look like a Disney cartoon.
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Why was Megaman 9/10 done with 8-bit sprites, instead of PS1/2/3 era sprites/models?
- Thread starter Toad.T
- Start date
It's not suppose to look like a Disney cartoon.
this had nothing to do with those pesky indie games..
Minecraft was barely just in alpha when MM9 released..
Minecraft doesn't look that way because it's trying to be retro, it looks that way because Notch is a shit artist.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Um... how exactly is it lazy? You know that replicating the NES as they did takes effort right? Anyways, they did it for nostalgia. I think it served them well, as it was like playing a new game from the 80s/early 90s.
To play things super very Capcom-safe easy mode, to not take the slightest bit of risk with anything Megaman related, to take the most middle-of-the-road inoffensive route with the games. Think about it, what would HD Megaman sprites look like? The default method would be to use the classic art style, which is pretty much Tezuka manga/anime style, but no way could Capcom have that, just imagine all the American fans who don't remember exactly like that because of all the localized box art? Ew gross anime for weebs we don't want that. So what else could they do? Create a brand new westernized non-anime inspired art style? Alienate all their japanese and anime-loving fans? Either way it risked causing a rift between players.
Yes I know all this reasoning is idiotic, but it's honestly the most likely Capcon CEO boardroom meeting line of reasoning that plays into the way they've treated the franchise for several generations.
Yes I know all this reasoning is idiotic, but it's honestly the most likely Capcon CEO boardroom meeting line of reasoning that plays into the way they've treated the franchise for several generations.
family_guy
Member
To be honest, I think 9/10 were just a compilation of unreleased levels from the NES development days and Capcom put no effort into them at all.
When 9 came out I was disappointed cause I wanted a new Mega Man game and not more of the same. We have 6 8bit NES styled Mega Man games that play the same, we really didn't need 2 more. The last time Mega Man jumped up to new hardware was PS1/Saturn and that was a long time ago.
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.
Mega Man in its original style has been dormant for forever until 9 came out. Even X, which went through SNES to PSX to PS2 went througha variety of changes, but less would care about the PS2's 3D incarnation.
One thing's for sure: they were smart to keep the same Rockman:screen size ratio, and probably to keep a 4:3 screen aspect ratio. I would have liked to get new sprites at exact 3x dimensions that maintained all of the charm of the originals, but there's so much more room for error when you raise the tech ceiling like that and it's hard to say how that would have looked without, you know, seeing it.
alf717
Member
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.
Mega Man in its original style has been dormant for forever until 9 came out. Even X, which went through SNES to PSX to PS2 went througha variety of changes, but less would care about the PS2's 3D incarnation.
I agree with the exception to X Capcom seemed to not want to risk classic gameplay style but instead would try something fresh instead. When Mega Man went 3D is wasn't Mega Man 3D or X 3D it was Legends and the game was every bit as great as the originals. Battle Network and Zero do the same thing.
Hmm not sure I entirely understand what you mean by "more of the same" Mega Man 8 plays the same as any NES or SNES Mega Man ever released at the time. Sure the artwork and sprite work changed yes but nothing else. Unless swimming counts. Mega Man's biggest change in that era of gaming was when it went full 3D with Legends.
Would be my first Final Fantasy purchase in over five years, I can tell you that much.
You missed the point of MM9, Toad.T. Entirely.
terrisus
Member
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years.
Easily the most enjoyable, and best-looking, Final Fantasy since the original release of 3(6)
Unfortunately, they can't even do "retro" look right now
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The difference between Mega Man 9/10 and stuff like Square's poorly presented "retro" art is that actual effort was put into crafting the Mega Man games well. I think this shows the staff working on the Mega Man games felt the 8-bit look had real value of its own, beyond only nostalgia.
I also do believe they were sincere when they expressed that they wanted to use the games as a training ground to rediscover making Mega Man games from scratch. As time went on, the Mega Man series became increasingly diffuse and sketchy in art consistency and design quality (with the exception of the GBA MM Zero series).
I also do believe they were sincere when they expressed that they wanted to use the games as a training ground to rediscover making Mega Man games from scratch. As time went on, the Mega Man series became increasingly diffuse and sketchy in art consistency and design quality (with the exception of the GBA MM Zero series).
I guess it's just that at the time, only classic was coming out. X's series was on hiatus and Legends was comatose. I didn't want there to be JUST retro sequels. They are fine when done well and MM9/10 were done well. It's just that the series seemed to be going that direction and I didn't like it.
But with the entire series fate in question, my worries are but a moot point.
But with the entire series fate in question, my worries are but a moot point.
I would assume because of finances and thinking megaman game wouldn't sell well with newer graphics was partly the reason it was in 8 bit sprites. I enjoyed the challenges in the game, but still, how hard wpuld've had been for Capcom to at least go SNES graphics. Can't be that more expensive to make a game that retro.
Dreamwriter
Member
Hell yes a 32x32 sprite takes more work to hand-draw and animate than a 3D model. With a 3D model you create the model once, then adjust it's positioning every frame. Heck, not even every frame, you set some key frames and the bones smoothly move the model between them. You can easily create a dozen animations in no time. With a 2D sprite, you have to draw every frame of every animation, and make sure it looks like it's doing the action you are animating despite having so few pixels and colors to work with, and make sure the transition to other animations isn't too jarring.
Even in the GBA era, especially towards the end of it, developers of 2D games were switching to 3D-rendered artwork because it was cheaper/faster.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
It's less encumbered by it's art style.
I'm not seeing any sort of encumbrance here. I'm seeing lovable characters.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Because Megaman 2/3 is the first thing people think of when they hear Megaman
JordanN
Banned
How many frames can an 8-bit Mega Man game have? There's only a neutral pose, a jump pose, hurt animation, climbing a ladder, run cycle and attack. None of them seem to be painstakingly made (his attack animation just has him stick one arm out while the rest of the sprite stays the same).
3D animation is suppose to have its own woes too like the gimbal lock and creating skin weights. I've watched 3D animating videos and it doesn't look much easier despite the tools. I think 2D can have some advantages just as 3D has its own (animating hair in 3D is actually suppose to be the hardest thing out there).
I should also mention tools have advanced so 2D can do motion tweening as well (though results obviously vary but for something as simple as an 8-bit game, surely there is room for cheating in the case of copying and pasting different parts).
terrisus
Member
If you like Michael Jordan, you probably should steer clear of the thread in OT from a couple of days ago where I was discussing his lack of skills at playing Baseball.
The aesthetic is heavily based on the look and design choices of EGA art. I don't doubt that's because it's the only style he could make look decent, but it's definitely rooted in classic PC gaming.
rockman zx
Member
MM9 in 8 bits was a good decision, and it worked great, for sales and for fans but they should have done MM10 in 16bits style or move from MM9 to MMX9 to make things interesting, Capcom burned the classic series with MM10.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
It's a nostalgic and stylistic choice, and hell yeah it's a better choice than PSX was graphics.
This is what i was going to post. Megaman 8 is a sequel to the megamen that people actually cared about (2 and 3)
See You Next Wednesday
Banned
Bullshit.
If you were born in the early 80's or the mid-80's you would have experienced the SNES/PSX Megaman games as well & would have a appreciation of high quality sprite art.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
These are the two things that come to mind more than anything else when I think of 32-bit Megaman:
Dr. Wahwee
WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR
The decision to avoid association with that era of Megaman altogether for Megaman 9 is one of the smartest things they did for a game that's already brimming with good ideas.
MM9 is fantastic.
The defining traits that separate it from its contemporaries are the stage selection and weapon acquisition from your foes. And Megaman 9 does that better than any other game in the classic series. Most of the arsenal that you acquire is very useful and reasonably balanced. There isn't a one-trick pony OP weapon like the Metal Blade, yet almost all of them are at least somewhat useful. Moves like the charge shot were annoying for a few reasons: First, the sound effect was obnoxious and drowned out the often great music, and second, making the standard shot too powerful diminishes the usefulness of the other weapons, the defining aspect of the game.
Megaman 9 really is a great example of "less is more" in more than one way, at least when you get the basics done as well as it does.
Dr. Wahwee
WHAT AM I FIGHTING FOR
The decision to avoid association with that era of Megaman altogether for Megaman 9 is one of the smartest things they did for a game that's already brimming with good ideas.
MM9 is fantastic.
And this just makes me wonder if you even "get" the original appeal of Megaman at all.
The defining traits that separate it from its contemporaries are the stage selection and weapon acquisition from your foes. And Megaman 9 does that better than any other game in the classic series. Most of the arsenal that you acquire is very useful and reasonably balanced. There isn't a one-trick pony OP weapon like the Metal Blade, yet almost all of them are at least somewhat useful. Moves like the charge shot were annoying for a few reasons: First, the sound effect was obnoxious and drowned out the often great music, and second, making the standard shot too powerful diminishes the usefulness of the other weapons, the defining aspect of the game.
Megaman 9 really is a great example of "less is more" in more than one way, at least when you get the basics done as well as it does.
megarockexe
Member
Easily the most enjoyable, and best-looking, Final Fantasy since the original release of 3(6)
Unfortunately, they can't even do "retro" look right now
Even this isn't as offensively awful as the MegaMan X iOS sprites. And then even that is no match for this real sprite that was actually used in Rockman Xover.
An updated retro look could still be done well and probably could have been done for MM9 and 10.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Because they thought it would be a good idea and they nailed it. Mega Man 9 is one of the best games of the last generation.
It's not a downgrade, it's a tribute to Mega Man 2.
It's not a downgrade, it's a tribute to Mega Man 2.
MisterHero
Super Member
I wouldn't call MM9/10 cheap, but they clearly chose to profit more from DLC.
DLC makes them modern games!
Triple Da G.O.D!
Member
MM9 tried and successfully invoked feelings of a time gone by and in proxy introduced a lot of new gamers to the way things were.
It also was revolutionary in the fact that it showed that this was a formula that could work in the medium presented which led to a lot of other games taking this same path. Gaming may have got there but MM9 existing just got the idea there faster.
I do wonder how that X9 would've looked given that it was going to tap into those SNES trilogy roots?
It also was revolutionary in the fact that it showed that this was a formula that could work in the medium presented which led to a lot of other games taking this same path. Gaming may have got there but MM9 existing just got the idea there faster.
I do wonder how that X9 would've looked given that it was going to tap into those SNES trilogy roots?
Earthpainting
Member
It made sense for them because the Mega Man series peaked really early on. Fans often consider either 2 or 3 to be the best entry in the franchise. They may not directly have fondness of the visual style, but they definitely do for how it sounded and played. For both authenticity, consistency and convenience, they made their tribute game 8-bit looking.
While it is true that decent quality 2D is more time and resource-intensive than a 3D equivalent, I don't think this really true with 8-bit sprites, especially not the minimal animation ones like in Mega Man 9/10. I bet the nostalgia element was their focal point, but the ease of production must have definitely been a factor too. Especially considering it recycles a very large amount lot of assets. I fear Capcom would not have greenlit either of these games if they weren't relatively cheap and quick to make.
The biggest problem that I had with Mega Man 9, was that it had given off the perception that the Classic Mega Man series couldn't evolve.
That is, instead of focusing development on a new Classic Mega Man title that could push the limits of technology & gameplay mechanics without sacrificing the essence of what Mega Man had always stood for, they had to play it safe to make a game that was comforting to gamers that are (still) not convinced that 3D polygons are a fine complement to classic video game design & aesthetics. (It didn't help that if the developers wanted to introduce new ideas and ways they could implement innovation, it was required that it needed to be created as a sub-series.)
Is Mega Man 9 a bad game? Of course not. But as it stands, I have already played it before, and I want to see what new things they can do with it. Even if it doesn't succeed, I will appreciate that the developers had made an admiral attempt at trying to incorporate new ideas & to innovate, rather than playing it safe & sound. (Such as the case with Bionic Commando & DMC. These games were far from perfect, but I admire these titles did try to shake the foundation that their predecessors had set.)
That is, instead of focusing development on a new Classic Mega Man title that could push the limits of technology & gameplay mechanics without sacrificing the essence of what Mega Man had always stood for, they had to play it safe to make a game that was comforting to gamers that are (still) not convinced that 3D polygons are a fine complement to classic video game design & aesthetics. (It didn't help that if the developers wanted to introduce new ideas and ways they could implement innovation, it was required that it needed to be created as a sub-series.)
Is Mega Man 9 a bad game? Of course not. But as it stands, I have already played it before, and I want to see what new things they can do with it. Even if it doesn't succeed, I will appreciate that the developers had made an admiral attempt at trying to incorporate new ideas & to innovate, rather than playing it safe & sound. (Such as the case with Bionic Commando & DMC. These games were far from perfect, but I admire these titles did try to shake the foundation that their predecessors had set.)
I think it's more that if you want it to pass for the real thing to the level they did you have to be very careful with the graphics, so there'd be a lot more research and scrutinizing than with either full 3D or even a style that just wanted to go for a pixalated look but not aim to pass for something that could've run on an older system. Half Minute Hero for example has too many colors for an NES game and I don't think the SNES could've handled its speed, and certainly you weren't going to get music that sounded that good on either system. MM9 though, there's probably some subtleties that betray it as being a modern game (look at the transition fades in the opening!) but you could probably fully recreate the core game on NES and it'd be near identical.
With modern 3D or even modern 2D there isn't as much holding back, so I can plausibly see that once you cut out licensing and VA costs something like DuckTales could well have been the cheaper game to make, or not significantly more expensive anyway.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
They made an amazing game, I don't care how much it cost to make.
JordanN
Banned
But it's just Mega Man though. Capcom isn't even reinventing the wheel with this, they're just repeating what they did 25 years ago but on newer hardware.
I haven't played the [new] ducktales game but if it's like other Wayforward games (that are hand drawn and resort to motion tweening in select frames), it's more difficult than a NES game.
oh my god
it was sarcasm.
I obviously know it was made as a tribute. I'm not the OP
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