Fear 2 had a rape scene
where Alma rapes the main protagonist.
Metro Last Light had a sexual assault/rape scene where you could stop and help or just continue about your business.
Can't think of anything else at the moment.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
USgamer on a rape allusion in Castlevania: Lords of Shadow 2
- Thread starter Tenrius
- Start date
Fear 2 had a rape scene
Metro Last Light had a sexual assault/rape scene where you could stop and help or just continue about your business.
Can't think of anything else at the moment.
Why isn't it up for debate? Because some people interpreted something a certain way and their word is law to you? What if they're wrong?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's not what you stated however. You made a general statement that was incorrect. Just because someone draws doesn't mean you draw everything. If someone creates fiction that uses some themes (e.g drinking blood) from stokers story that does not automatically make blood sucking a metaphor for rape. The writer would have to confirm that by putting in some of rest of the lore that does in fact infer a metaphor for rape.
So everyone is using the Dracula comparison but no one is actually using a Castlevania comparison?
How many Castlevania games are there, where you play as Dracula?
You play as the son of Dracula in a couple. He never feeds on women or men.
-
He also does not feed on people.
Then eventually in LoS.
Typically in a Castlevania game, you are not Dracula. Typically Dracula is the evil lord and you play as a hero.
The games are traditionally filled with some grotesque imagery and even sexual imagery. Rondo of Blood starts of with a woman being sacrificed on an alter for instance. To be fair, I remember a good deal of controversy surrounding that scene as well.
My problem with the implications of Dracula being a rapist in this game (if true) is that you play as him. Besides, in Bram Stoker's Dracula you are not reading from the perspective of Dracula. You are reading it from the perspective of Harker.
While this is staying true to the form of Dracula as a character, it is not staying true to the form of Castlevania as a game. I never want to play as a rapist in any game.
How many Castlevania games are there, where you play as Dracula?
You play as the son of Dracula in a couple. He never feeds on women or men.
In Aria of Sorrow, Soma becomes the reincarnation of Dracula
He also does not feed on people.
Then eventually in LoS.
Typically in a Castlevania game, you are not Dracula. Typically Dracula is the evil lord and you play as a hero.
The games are traditionally filled with some grotesque imagery and even sexual imagery. Rondo of Blood starts of with a woman being sacrificed on an alter for instance. To be fair, I remember a good deal of controversy surrounding that scene as well.
My problem with the implications of Dracula being a rapist in this game (if true) is that you play as him. Besides, in Bram Stoker's Dracula you are not reading from the perspective of Dracula. You are reading it from the perspective of Harker.
While this is staying true to the form of Dracula as a character, it is not staying true to the form of Castlevania as a game. I never want to play as a rapist in any game.
I love the part in Bram Stoker's Dracula with the skeletons that shoot kamehamehas
There are others better prepared to answer this, but my association comes from discussing vampire books and movies with friends and teachers during high school and college. I never went too deep as my focus has been elsewhere, but I think it is almost universally understood that vampirism is a metaphor for rape. Similar to the Xenomorphs
FrostuTheNinja
Member
Good to know that things can't associate with their legacy.
Even if in some fictional universe Dracula did only feed on women, what would be the problem with that? Even if there was rape here what would be the problem with that? It's fiction. When you try to say anything in fiction is endorsing something in reality you are boarding the Jack Thompson train.
TheJollyCorner
Member
If Ms. Bailey is uncomfortable with what she witnessed, it's worth a discussion I think.
However, as has been mentioned many times, Cox & his team set out to make a moment intentionally uncomfortable (which is why I brought up Silent Hill 2).
I don't think they should change it, as (IMO) it doesn't appear that it was done in a tasteless manner, but I don't think Ms. Bailey's issues should necessarily be mocked and turned into "LOL game journalism".
In my mind, that scene would be: Dracula immediately kills the dad because he might see dad as a potential threat. It's my understanding that Dracula is in a weakened state. The mother could be perceived as weaker, so an easier target to extract blood from.
"Rape" or allusions of rape wouldn't have even crossed my mind before reading this thread. Maybe I'm not sensitive enough. I dunno. SH2 is much more direct (both with the PyramidHead/Nurse scene & the Angela scene with the 'bed' creature)- but the intention was the same: make the audience/player uncomfortable.
The comparison to RapeLay... well, I didn't even know that existed until reading this thread. :/
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Gabriel, in the video game Casltevania: Lords of Shadow 2 needs nourishment, so he's feeding. There may be certain things that are suggestive (I imagine the women he's feeding on is attractive, and is showing cleavage or what not) in regards to subtext but to take this and go "it's rape, it's uncomfortable, and they should censor it" is just fucking stupid.
If people want to see sexual assault, and they look at something close enough and they convince themselves that it's there, it would be. But the reality is Gabriel is murdering an innocent women, that is probably what Cox was saying when he wanted Gabriel to appear evil, and have the scene be disturbing. The author of the article is somehow twisting this into the notion that he wanted to disturb people by putting a vampire rape sequence into his video game, which I'm pretty sure isn't even the point of the scene to begin with. It's almost as if Cox couldn't even wrap his head around the notion that Kat considers this scene a form of sexual rape, which is why he kept on with the interview in the manner he did when he was presented with follow up questions. The notion of rape was so absurd to him, it didn't even cross his mind in the first place. It's just a shocking, violent scene in which a vampire feeds. end of story.
If people want to see sexual assault, and they look at something close enough and they convince themselves that it's there, it would be. But the reality is Gabriel is murdering an innocent women, that is probably what Cox was saying when he wanted Gabriel to appear evil, and have the scene be disturbing. The author of the article is somehow twisting this into the notion that he wanted to disturb people by putting a vampire rape sequence into his video game, which I'm pretty sure isn't even the point of the scene to begin with. It's almost as if Cox couldn't even wrap his head around the notion that Kat considers this scene a form of sexual rape, which is why he kept on with the interview in the manner he did when he was presented with follow up questions. The notion of rape was so absurd to him, it didn't even cross his mind in the first place. It's just a shocking, violent scene in which a vampire feeds. end of story.
Why am I not surprised Far Cry 3 isn't on the list? No one really seemed to have made an issue of it when happened.
http://youtu.be/yh6mgHgOJhE?t=3m28s
The only difference between this game and others is that the man was the victim of rape.
I would say one is necessarily more invasive, and can't possibly be "quick and painless." The emotional impact of the "threat" of rape tends to be more closely associated with women. I can understand why someone would make the case that there's more suffering associated with rape.
I think it's fair to say rape is different from murder. I also think that rape shouldn't be excluded as a literary element in fiction, particularly when attempting to highlight the monstrosity of a character.
TheSpoiler
Member
But it's alright to see a rapist in the game, since Dracula feeds on women?
So it's okay for someone to be in the game so long as you aren't actively playing as that person?
In fiction, absolutely.
Maybe because it's easier to disconnect from murder or something.
Like some have stated before me, the devs tried to express the gruesome nature of a monster- of course it's going to be unsettling.
I can kind of see how you would complain about having to commit such things in a game, yet I find the rape accusations to be very inadequate.
It is already unsettling for what it is, let's not make it about something it clearly isn't.
chickdigger802
Banned
wait, so sometimes dude will feed on just the wife, and sometimes he feeds on others?
branching paths?
branching paths?
But what if they're right? One's not any more or less likely than the other, but It's not like you're presenting your arguments any better than Xander's "it isn't up for debate" by stating stuff like "people see hidden messages where there aren't any" without actually supporting those statements with any reasonable arguments against the countless amounts written about this particular trope in vampire fiction.
Maybe I don't agree with the interpretation? Or with the idea that the interpretation applies to everything?
DJSharpeCheddar
Banned
Uh...trying to avoid spoiling SH2 in case you/anyone else hasn't played it...
If she were to make that argument...let's just say it wouldn't exactly hold up...
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Is it interactive or just a first person cutscene? It sounds like No Russian 2; all shock, no substance and has no relation to the rest of the game.
You are fighting evil and rape is one of the things associated with that evil.
Oppo
Member
That's where I'm at with this.
And after the huge flurry of vampire stuff over the last few years, it's really really weird to suddenly Cry Rape at Castlevania, of all things.
I have no doubt the scene is supposed to be a disturbing massacre but rape? I literally just cannot see the angle here. I've seen seduction on other vampire lore but certainly not this.
And she definitely stepped over the line in asking for it to be cut out of the game. Like, what in the actual fuck.
Oh, I get the sexual symbolism and overtones clearly. I even said it goes with the territory. All I am implying is that despite such symbolism that vampirism carries with it, scenes of sucking blood is not implying the outright raping of a woman sexually. It's never meant to be perceived in such a way. Seductive, sexual and a violation by a monster? Sure, but not outright sexual rape.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Dracula (the novel, the character, the genre it influenced, and the tropes it created) are undeniably charged with sexual violence. That's undeniable, and if you're going to argue against that you have an uphill battle.
When I read the thread title, I wholeheartedly expected something straight out of a trashy vampire novel; something like Dracula stalking a woman down a modern alley and feeding on her in a really disturbing way. Because to be frank, that's the sort of crass "YOU are the monster" edginess that many game developers sadly think is necessary for a "mature" narrative. Instead, the article seemed to depict a scene where any sexual aspects were more due to the century-old baggage that Dracula carries than to the scene itself, and if the other previews are accurate, then the imagery is exactly what Houghton from GamesRadar is saying: that Dracula is meant to be Dracula the hungry animal predator, rather than Dracula the sexual predator.
I don't doubt Bailey in that Mercury Steam's attempt to give Dracula "depth" probably falls flat (see: crassness, edginess, etc. above), but I don' t think they're trying to achieve that goal in the way she's saying.
When I read the thread title, I wholeheartedly expected something straight out of a trashy vampire novel; something like Dracula stalking a woman down a modern alley and feeding on her in a really disturbing way. Because to be frank, that's the sort of crass "YOU are the monster" edginess that many game developers sadly think is necessary for a "mature" narrative. Instead, the article seemed to depict a scene where any sexual aspects were more due to the century-old baggage that Dracula carries than to the scene itself, and if the other previews are accurate, then the imagery is exactly what Houghton from GamesRadar is saying: that Dracula is meant to be Dracula the hungry animal predator, rather than Dracula the sexual predator.
I don't doubt Bailey in that Mercury Steam's attempt to give Dracula "depth" probably falls flat (see: crassness, edginess, etc. above), but I don' t think they're trying to achieve that goal in the way she's saying.
Now, that scene is rapey as fuck. He jams her gun through her chest, nails her down to a wall and starts sucking her dry while she gasps and twitches.
And it matters none, because he is a genuine monster and spent an evening just before that slaughtering police who were manipulated into attacking him (and civilians who got in the line of fire).
I've been having an exchange with her over the last half-hour or so. She's obviously getting a lot of crap from people, but she's been nothing but cordial, and totally willing to respond to particular questions. I have a screen-grab of the back-and-forth.
ultra lol. She has an agenda, cool, let's move on.
Agreed. In fact, the clear history of the metaphor is exactly why this controversy is so inexplicable to me.
Zoe
Member
Player controlled.
Cyber Caesar
Member
Rape is bad but murder we give a free pass? Rape this thread.
It's possible it was a different demo session? I'm not sure myself. Since it's player controlled, it may be that you can both attack and feed, and seeing it play out a particular way, she assumed it was more structured than it was.
XANDER CAGE
Member
It's pretty clear that we're talking about Stoker's literary influence, hence why I've repeatedly stated "for around/over a century."
meltingparappa
Member
To be fair, that's a community contributed list. You could (and should, honestly as there's no question about that scene) add it if you have the time.
It isn't quite as blatant as the way xenomorphs orally rape/forcibly impregnate every race they come across, but vampires are basically rapists.
That out of the way it seems like a weird criticism. Must have been some voyeuristic camera work going on.
TheSpoiler
Member
And I love you.
Yeah that totally makes it okay. The "raping" (I apologize to those who have to have gone through that in their life, because this shit is petty and immature) is still being done within the game's confines. You just justify it by saying "well, I don't play as the guy doing it!", when, in reality, if you were so against such a thing you'd put down any game with any mention of the sort.
You can't just cherry pick.
It is fine now, people.
Hahahaha. This is great.
Seriously though. Fuck this game. From everything I'm hearing It's as far away from Castlevania you can get at this point.
"Basically?" They either are or aren't.
Yeah, I agree. I think it worked in SH2. The scene was a total homage to the "rape" scene in Blue Velvet (a film that also was highly criticized for it's portrayal of sexual violence).If LOS is any indication, LOS2 will probably handle this with the gracefulness of a student in a middle school fiction class.
It's bizarre, but it's also standard - killable children mean a refused classification, blood is T but urine is M and semen is AO (and thus effectively refused classification), killing American soldiers except when playing German or Chinese soldier means refused distribution even if you're classified, and so on. Why is catering to her sensitivities worse than catering to these sensitivities? If it isn't, why don't we have multiple threads going on GAF about these assaults on artistic integrity?
It's especially striking because the killing of a child in the very same scene WAS cut by the publisher, and no one in this thread seems to mind.
This is important, too. Drac having the option of meta-raping everything he can get his hands on is honestly way less potentially offensive, IMO, because it pushes him further toward being an elemental force of pure evil instead of focusing on that thinly-veiled Mina Harper metaphor.
Team Filler
Member
I wonder how Kat and Jeremy feel about Alex DeLarge being the protagonist in A Clockwork Orange.
There was Patrica Hernandez who seemed almost disappointed that it wasn't more explicit (yeah, seriously)
http://kotaku.com/5967772/here-are-three-possible-reasons-for-including-rape-in-far-cry-3
It is fine now, people.
You know, I remember when people were worried about the original game because Kojima liked Twilight. Full circle.
Free pass? Hardly. But it's pretty hard to argue that murder in popular media is as less horrifying as rape. How many thousands of people have we seen murdered in action films over the years? But a rape scene almost always garners a reaction.
Is that the way it should be? No. But it's the way it is.
anexanhume
Member
Really, you're going to ignore all the responses you got and repeat the same baseless assertion?
there's a clockwork orange video game?
Muppet of a Man
Member
It is fine now, people.
This is exactly what should not happen as a result of an article like this. The biggest gripe I have with the article is that it will intentionally or unintentionally cause the publisher to self-censor the original work, which is a precedent I have a big problem with.