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[Principate]

It's pretty clear that we're talking about Stoker's literary influence, hence why I've repeatedly stated "for around/over a century."

I could create a story that references werewolf lore, but has no mention of a transformation during full moon. That means despite the lore involving full moon, my version does not. You do not then in tern assume my werewolf transforms during a full moon.

My point is not every story that uses influence of Bram Stokers novel, intends for the rape metaphor. And may go about in ways counter to that.

 

[SmithnCo]

It's a scene meant to evoke an emotion and they said as much. I would be very disappointed if they censored it.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I didn't even see that it's an optional thing.

So you can bite the husband, yeah?

Are we seriously arguing over the fact that Cox chose to bite the female like it's some underlying commentary for rape in real life?

 

[Mman235]

Dracula drinks blood from men and women alike in the game. Is it a violation? Hell yes, as vampires drink blood from living hosts to live. Is it a sexual violation that implies raping a woman? No. It's just Dracula being the blood drinking fiend that he is. There is nothing to see here.

You know rape isn't just something that heterosexual people have to deal with.

Thing is though that I'm basically agreeing with you that this article saying that something that's supposed to be horrifying is horrifying is absurd (regardless of the questionable "empathy" thing).

 

[Levyne]

If he was a vampire not named Dracula would we have this discussion?

Does the author feel similarly about being able to feed on whichever women you want in Vampire the Masquearde or inFamous Festival of Blood? Is first person really the line we shouldn't have crossed?

 

[ironcreed]

It is fine now, people.

If some people had their way, this is exactly what we would have ended up with. Instead of something that, you know, feels like you are playing as Dracula.

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

In my mind, that scene would be: Dracula immediately kills the dad because he might see dad as a potential threat. It's my understanding that Dracula is in a weakened state. The mother could be perceived as weaker, so an easier target to extract blood from.
"Rape" or allusions of rape wouldn't have even crossed my mind before reading this thread.

He kills the man first so he can have his way with the woman? That sounds a lot like rape.

 

[Nags]

And I love you.



Yeah that totally makes it okay. The "raping" (I apologize to those who have to have gone through that in their life, because this shit is petty and immature) is still being done within the game's confines. You just justify it by saying "well, I don't play as the guy doing it!", when, in reality, if you were so against such a thing you'd put down any game with any mention of the sort.

You can't just cherry pick.

No, it doesn't make it okay. I was raped in my teens. I live with that everyday.
But it is a reality and unequivocally evil. So I guess maybe it's just an easy way to make an evil character.

 

[anexanhume]

I didn't even see that it's an optional thing.

So you can bite the husband, yeah?

Are we seriously arguing over the fact that Cox chose to bite the female like it's some underlying commentary for rape in real life?

From the other previews, it's not optional. You have to feed on all 3.

 

[IvorB]

Oh god. Here we go again. Even just the slightest hint of rape and people are freaking out. This writer's homework should be to watch Irreversible and contemplate how challenging material is as at home in art as a pig in muck.

 

[ironcreed]

You know rape isn't just something that heterosexual people have to deal with.

Of course. I never said otherwise.

Thing is though that I'm basically agreeing with you that this article saying that something that's supposed to be horrifying is horrifying is absurd (regardless of the questionable "empathy" thing).

That's all I am really saying.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I could create a story that references werewolf lore, but has no mention of a transformation during full moon. That means despite the lore involving full moon, my version does not. You do not then in tern assume my werewolf transforms during a full moon.

My point is not every story that uses influence of Bram Stokers novel, intends for the rape metaphor. And may go about in ways counter to that.

1. Moon transformations are not subtext.
2. The developers agreed that the scene was uncomfortable for the reasons the writer told then and said it was intentional, so it's pretty clear this is a subtext they ARE drawing from.

 

[Eknots]

"Journalists"

 

[Valnen]

He kills the man first so he can have his way with the woman? That sounds a lot like rape.

How would you see it if he killed the woman first and drank the husband's blood?

 

[Waylon Drums]

Um...

I mixed a little sarcasm with a little not sarcasm. Silly me.

 

[bVork]

Modern vampire fiction that sympathizes with the monster has almost always been about power and corruption. Many works present vampires in a really cool light, showing how awesome it would be to be an immortal and super-powerful being, at once both outside of history and moulding it as he or she sees fit. And then they show the awful, awful things that must be done to sustain the vampire's life, leaving the reader/viewer/player with the questions: is it worth it? Is that sort of power worth giving up your humanity? Can there be a balance?

If the article is right about how Mercury Steam talked about how badass Dracula can be, and then showed this scene, then it sounds like they hit it right out of the park.

 

[Muppet of a Man]

It's bizarre, but it's also standard - killable children mean a refused classification, blood is T but urine is M and semen is AO (and thus effectively refused classification), killing American soldiers except when playing German or Chinese soldier means refused distribution even if you're classified, and so on. Why is catering to her sensitivities worse than catering to these sensitivities? If it isn't, why don't we have multiple threads going on GAF about these assaults on artistic integrity?

It's especially striking because the killing of a child in the very same scene WAS cut by the publisher, and no one in this thread seems to mind.



This is important, too. Drac having the option of meta-raping everything he can get his hands on is honestly way less potentially offensive, IMO, because it pushes him further toward being an elemental force of pure evil instead of focusing on that thinly-veiled Mina Harper metaphor.

Is this stuff actually true? Geez, if it is, that is a whole load of bullshit. Purchased media should not be censored unless those being filmed/portrayed are being illegally exploited (e.g., child pornography, etc.).

 

[TheSpoiler]

No, it doesn't make it okay. I was raped in my teens. I live with that everyday.
But it is a reality and unequivocally evil. So I guess maybe it's just an easy way to make an evil character.

It's not like I'm disagreeing with the notion of evil and rape. But I understand where you are coming from.

From the other previews, it's not optional. You have to feed on all 3.

That's even worse! How dare he now feed upon not just a male but a female as well.

So that increases my points - he feeds on all of them, that's the big fucking deal? Sexuality or no, this isn't some target aimed at females, nor is it some discussion about rape in video games. Flimsy at best.

 

[Valkyri von Thanatos]

Well, I heard some thought it was a heavy handed way of reminding the player that Gabriel/Dracula has really become a monster, but this reaction I would have never expected. Honestly, it's a scene depicting a monster feeding on his prey for survival, nothing else. A vampire sucks blood, sure there has been erotic implications in the mythology of the creatures, but it is really stretching it to construe the producer's statement that "we want you to feel uncomfortable" to mean "we intentionally made this scene rapey".

The weirdest thing is that the writer thought of it as similiar to such a notorious game specifically. Maybe she is really sensitive to the topic, saw enough of the "game" to be really disturbed (and why wouldn't she be, it's disgusting), and then was just suddenly reminded of it by the first person view and the hands? In the end, it's just an overreaction to a scene that sounds like it needed a little more subtlety in how it went about showing Dracula at his worst.

Most journalists who previewed the game recently have had a negative reaction in one way or another towards the scene, and descriptions of it do sound similiar to MW3's, "SHOCK AND AWE" scene, but I would not suggest censorship. The scene is meant to invoke a strong reaction, someone just took it a place it very clearly wasn't meant to be interpreted.

Also, some people say the kid was a boy, and some people say it was a girl. Some kids can be confused for either, but I was wondering if it's random? Like they are just a group of NPCs who wander around the area you start in, and the player has to actively hunt them? That would be a little creepier.

Oh yeah, and taking out the man first is just a survival tactic. It shocks the other victims into inaction, and he may have been attacked if he left one of the two adults alive while feeding. As simple as that, just vampire survival right there. It's brutal, but that's the point. We see Gabriel/Dracula's lowest point quickly, so that he can redeem himself to the viewer and his own dormant human side over the course of the game, probably.

 

[docbon]

Interesting reactions.

I think I'd just like to see the scene to begin with.

Yeah, I think I'm going to withhold judgment here until after I've seen the actual scene. It does sound pretty brutal in general, and I can understand it being super uncomfortable playing out the scene from the perspective of the aggressor, but it's difficult to argue for or against with this little information.

 

[Kinyou]

From the other previews, it's not optional. You have to feed on all 3.

I could imagine that she missed it because she was taking a note or something like that. Wouldn't really excuse it though. With that kind of allegation you better make sure you have seen the full scene.

 

[TheJollyCorner]

Yeah, I agree. I think it worked in SH2. The scene was a total homage to the "rape" scene in Blue Velvet (a film that also was highly criticized for it's portrayal of sexual violence).If LOS is any indication, LOS2 will probably handle this with the gracefulness of a student in a middle school fiction class.

lol can't argue with that.

 

[Mesoian]

Vampires aren't violating a women's right to her sexuality though. They are violating her right to live, by draining her blood. And that's the difference. A right to live, is something universal and shared by everyone, whatever the gender may be. Again, calling this sexual/assault rape just has no base. You can call it suggestive and a lot of other things, but to skip go, not collect 200 dollars and go straight to jail with the rape card is unfounded, and does make the article seem like click bait.

Depends on the work you're referencing. In this case, you're probably right. But there are plenty of cases in fiction where the act of vampires feeding or turning a victim is every bit as much of a sexual act as it is a predatory one. Almost every vampire related work outside of Twilight that I can think of created in the last 50 years as the act of feeding being a very sensual, very physical act, even if it results in death.

That being said, if the scene in question ends up being repeated a gross of times throughout the game in regular combat as a health restorative, then this whole thing is just a giant non-argument.

 

[Rulp]

This is ridiculous. Leave the scene in the game.

 

[Real Hero]

How would you see it if he killed the woman first and drank the husband's blood?

Homosexual desire/ rape. If I read it in a book or saw it in a film anyway.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

1. Moon transformations are not subtext.
2. The developers agreed that the scene was uncomfortable for the reasons the writer told then and said it was intentional, so it's pretty clear this is a subtext they ARE drawing from.

I'm not getting that. From this article and the others, it sounds like people made nonspecific comments about the scene being disturbing in response to Cox asking if it made them uncomfortable. Bailey said "yes," assuming that Cox was referring to rape imagery.

From the other comments Cox made, it sounds like he was asking if they were uncomfortable because the protagonist just killed innocent people including a small child, because game developers wow2edgy4me, etc., not asking if they were uncomfortable because of images evoking sexual assault.

 

[Ponn]

This is the type off knee jerk cry for censorship that tends to be counter productive to a cause. Especially a monster myth that has been romanticized to hell and back.

 

[Bedlam]

Uh...trying to avoid spoiling SH2 in case you/anyone else hasn't played it...

If she were to make that argument...let's just say it wouldn't exactly hold up...

Played it. Still love it.

But if we're just talking about the rape scene, James was just an observer.

Yeah, I agree. I think it worked in SH2. The scene was a total homage to the "rape" scene in Blue Velvet (a film that also was highly criticized for it's portrayal of sexual violence).If LOS is any indication, LOS2 will probably handle this with the gracefulness of a student in a middle school fiction class.

Even if this is the case, developers should be free to do it.

 

[Principate]

1. Moon transformations are not subtext.
2. The developers agreed that the scene was uncomfortable for the reasons the writer told then and said it was intentional, so it's pretty clear this is a subtext they ARE drawing from.

1) Lol why did you even state you know precisely what I meant there's a dozen other examples that work just fine, that's simply being purposefully obtuse.

2) Uncomfortable means many and anything. I can be uncomfortable from, a decapitation, man slaughter, assault (which is what this is either way).

My point is you don't assume it to be sexual unless the story in question leads you to believe so. Much like Bram Stokers version of Vampires isn't inherently sexual until you add in the preference of females, the domination aspects etc.

 

[BocoDragon]

It's valid to feel offended and to vent that, and we as a society can have a big discussion about it.

But she actually implies from a platform of journalism that she hopes the scene will be quickly cut out before release?

I hope for the sake of the industry and for greater society that no one at Konami is taking that request seriously.

 

[Sn4ke_911]

This is ridiculous. Leave the scene in the game.

 

[Kinyou]

1. Moon transformations are not subtext.
2. The developers agreed that the scene was uncomfortable for the reasons the writer told then and said it was intentional, so it's pretty clear this is a subtext they ARE drawing from.

No the dev says that he wanted people to feel uncomfortable. He never mentions that he wanted to evoke allusions of rape. (murdering innocent people can already be shocking enough)

She interprets her own stuff into his words:

When Cox talks about wanting to take risks and arguments with the marketing team, it's clear that the scene was constructed with the intention of evoking sexual assault. It's ostensibly there to show that Dracula is evil; but really, the imagery was chosen for its ability to provoke a strong emotional reaction. That it's being used almost exclusively for shock value serves to trivialize a very real horror that women must deal with every day.

It's weird that she doesn't think that having the protagonist murder three innocents (including a child) isn't risky enough on it's own

 

[TheSpoiler]

I could imagine that she missed it because she was taking a note or something like that. Wouldn't really excuse it though. With that kind of allegation you better make sure you have seen the full scene.

Well, you know, journalism is a field not known for its detail, accuracy, and truth.

/sarcasm

 

[anexanhume]

I could imagine that she missed it because she was taking a note or something like that. Wouldn't really excuse it though. With that kind of allegation you better make sure you have seen the full scene.

I still have some confusion because it appears at one time it showed the child being fed upon, whereas now it doesn't.

 

[Ahasverus]

hmmm.... what was the last castlevania, heck any vampire game with rape allusions?

Intro of Castlevania Dracula X Chronicles (and Rondo of BLood).

 

[ezekial45]

good.

 

[Pyccko]

From what I'm hearing, I don't really see the problem. Unless everybody just wants to go ahead and make all vampire fiction illegal, which, you know, I guess I could get behind.

 

[Jburton]

The reasoning behind her thoughts is that the scene is overtly sexualized due to the biting of the neck. Arthur Gies chimes in on her posts and my twitter question and she agrees and he goes on to explain that before Bram Stocker vampires would bit off and eat legs, arms, etc. I get what they are saying and of course bitting a neck is seen sexually as such but I don't think I agree with it being overtly sexual especially as this is a vampire we are talking about. Now if he licked her up and down and then teased her and sucked her blood slowly, I get that but just sounds like he goes in for the kill and done.

Has this not always been the case in terms of the whole vampire thing being sexual in nature?

Maybe she should have most vampire movies retroactively censored, maybe pages taken out of books?



Nothing being done in this game is any different than the portrayal of vampires in other media types.


These people who get so easily offended over everything must be fucking boring in real life, hyper sensitive types with no sense of humour.

I despair.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

The phrasing cracks me up but I like that they have a vision and are willing to stay with it.

 

[abadguy]

He kills the man first so he can have his way with the woman? That sounds a lot like rape.

From the other articles posted about the scene, he feeds on all three victims. The husband ,Wife and Daughter. So seems more like a family being killed than a "rape scene" which in itself is bad. At the end of the day it seems like the usuall click bait bullshit with faux outrage over something that simply isn't there. I am surprised this didn't come from Kotaku, those guys must be slipping.

 

[MaschinenZimmer]

LOL

 

[Eknots]

So this game isn't made for any of the "journalists" that are complaining about it clearly

 

[Oppo]

It is fine now, people.

Agh, that's even worse! That vampire raped deer!

I bet David Cox saw that article and was totally gobsmacked at what the takeaway was on Kat's part. Nice to see they have some backbone.

 

[Angelus Errare]

ITT: People think Bram Stoker created vampires or something.

 

[McDougles]

Just curious; what other games show or allude to rape in its story? I know the Silent Hill has done it, but the only other one I recall is in Far Cry 3.

Every David Cage movie/game ever.

 

[Jburton]

Bravo !

Pro choice for the win.

 

[Tenrius]

Every David Cage movie/game ever.

I wish this post didn't make me remember that rape/assault/whatever scene in Heavy Rain, but it just did. Oh god.

 

[MartyStu]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/3119509577/03386cb09cdf1318466ebdac233e0e43.jpeg

She'll get a promotion instead.

What the fuck is this post supposed to mean?

I disagree with her too, but for the love of god man...

 

[XANDER CAGE]

I'm not getting that. From this article and the others, it sounds like people made nonspecific comments about the scene being disturbing in response to Cox asking if it made them uncomfortable. Bailey said "yes," assuming that Cox was referring to rape imagery.

From the other comments Cox made, it sounds like he was asking if they were uncomfortable because the protagonist just killed innocent people including a small child, because game developers wow2edgy4me, etc.

Yeah, it could totally be that way around. It just seems like, in the way the first article was framed, that the writer said "this is uncomfortable because rape undertones" and the developer agreed with that assessment. I could've read this totally the wrong way, though. I could be giving them way too much credit for their writing for a God of War clone.

That being said, regardless of how smart or dumb the writers of Castlevania actually are, people getting defensive out of hand on the game's behalf because they don't think vampire fiction plays on rape are completely missing the point and are obfuscating what's actually worth debating here.

 

[OrlanisWorks]

So he feeds on all three, but he treats the woman a little differently? I want to know how different. Did he touch her in certain body areas?

I want to know how her feeding is "sexualized" goddammit!