-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
This forum stopped me from killing myself. I think it's worth keeping.
- Thread starter Sadsic
- Start date
This is a strange bump to a pretty intense topic I made at the very end of the last iteration of Neogaf - I am still watching this site but don't really post in it much anymore. The majority of all the communities I was part of moved away. I would also say that I align much more with the "extreme leftist" ideology that this site has been slowly shitting on since it came back online, so it makes me not want to post here anymore. It makes me uncomfortable reading this site, since it seems to now circle around an ideology I find pretty ugly. The weird thing to me is that the community on this site seems to keep pretending that it doesn't seem to think it's actually a right-leaning site, that it actually exists in some nonexistent nonpartisan center. The thing is, there is no center to choose from in the west anymore, particularly in America. What you have left is two competing ideologies, one of which is "the left" and one which is "the right". Both are flawed, and it is a terrible thing to have only two choices to pick what governs your country, your life and your reality, but this is what life has simplified or devolved down to in the current age. This is not something that happened over night either, it's something that society has been slowly moving towards for much longer than I have been alive. Here is the purview of everything as I see it:
In America at least, where I live, there has been a slowly suffocating Manichaean divide (re: "good and evil") coming into formation since the civil rights act was passed. The left and right have both slowly become more ideological over the last 50 years, and there is essentially no room to say "I am center" in between the two, since there is no center choice in politics anymore. It used to be that both parties in American politics contained both liberals and conservatives so both parties could compromise fairly regularly, so you could adequately say "I am center and above the fray" while picking either party but this is an impossible feat now. The Republicans are now exclusively conservative and the Democrats exclusively liberal, the code words for the two ideologies. And what makes an ideology? The idea of an ideology is to create an uncompromising set of values that the believers of the ideology (the "ideologues") can break or even see beyond the borders of the ideology itself. To the ideologue, the ideology is all of reality, and anything else is a lie from the evils of "the others" in society to twist the world into pure evil. Of course all of this is pure nonsense, but roughly everyone in the west now believes in one of the two ideologies presented by our current political systems, with very little else outside of the two ideologies to consume or enjoy. If you are not an ideologue to either side, you no longer have a voice in western politics, and again, in particular, American politics.
The two ideologies essentially consist of two separate ways of processing reality. To liberals, the two ideologies sound like something like this: (Oliver Bird's initial monologue from the FX show Legion). In the liberal ideology, liberals champion the power of empathy and understanding against an overwhelming force of fear, tradition and evil that holds back society from evolving. Liberals want all humans to be treated equally, invokes giving people who are deemed to suffer more a larger voice and power in society than what is currently given. In this ideology, the current society, or progressive society is deified as a better and more perfect society than the past. Liberals also, while in giving the suffering a higher voice, make the mistake of abandoning any of these virtues of empathy and understanding towards anyone in the majority position, such as white people, men, christians, cisgendered people, able-bodied people, etc. This is likely the fatal flaw of liberal ideology - in championing the rights of those forgotten by society, it has made an enemy of society itself. It is an ugly ideology to many people in the majority of power.
I couldn't find a pretty clear video that applies the two ideologies for the conservative ideology, but this is pretty good frame for some of it currently: (early season scene of King of the Hill with Chris Rock). With this video, you can see a pretty direct conservative point of view - a person in the majority (ie white) tries to exert their free speech, but is cast down by a peer group of minorities (ie black), who refuse to listen even when a rational speaker tells otherwise. This fits in pretty well with In the current iteration of conservative ideology, in which the vast fringes of society are the ones who are driving society towards some sort of "weirdmageddon" (to steal a word from Gravity Falls), in which traditional society is flipped upside down. It is the creation of a society that champion's minority's rights over the majority, letting the LGBT community, feminists, "SJWs", immigrants and violent minorities run rampant and destroy whatever made society good in the first place. In this ideology, the traditional society, or past society is deified as being a better and more perfect society than the present. I believe there are many more sub-narratives to choose from in the conservative ideology as well - the current "Trump" narrative is very different than the conservative ideology of even 2 years ago. However, all conservative ideologies make the same mistake every time - they do not have the ability to become attractive to anyone that outside of the majority, of which there is an increasing amount of people. It is an ugly ideology to many people in the minority of power.
These two ideologies have been in the human brain since the beginning of man. They have had many different names in many different lands in many different times, but it always comes down to whether society can learn to trust the "other" in society. From what I can see, both ideologies are the "other" to each other in an integrated society. They are the david and goliath of societies - the grand operating machine and those who wish to break it. They are the old and the new. The yin and the yang. And the Overton window shifts around to different parts of what is politically expedient in any given moment, which can make one ideology seem better than the other, or vice versa in different times of crisis.
Overall though, I find this to be a terrible system that always creates enemies for someone to hate, and it blinds people to a morality system that is unthinkable to change. While I prefer the leftist ideology, as I believe it reduces human suffering, which I believe to be the most important goal of an ideology, I think the entire system of dueling ideologies is inherently flawed. Outside if the pragmatics of current western politics, which leads me to believing in the left here is what I truly believe:
The world is imaginary. It is made of subjective and intersubjective ideas of which humans cannot easily or readily understand. Intersubjective ideas are subjective ideas shared by thousands, millions or even billions of people in unison, such as religion, money and countries. None of these concepts have any real objective meaning, but humans regularly assume intersubjective concepts to be objective concepts and are unable to see past them normally. There is very little in human civilization that is actually objective or factual. There can be objectively measured data, but what the measured data means is inherently subjective or intersubjective. All of history, society, culture and even your own life is a story. A fictional story. It can be bended, changed, played with and corrected. While it may seem that history is a series of factual events, it is actually entirely open to interpretation by the human mind. Anything can be almost anything to the human mind.
While I am not saying we live in a fictional universe, like the matrix or something, I am saying that what we think of reality is actually highly subjective - it does not have one interpretation. Every human sees reality differently, and many people are connected by large intersubjective ideas that entangle over each other, like money, family, work, religion, television, video games, and even this website. What I am saying, is that there is no reason for ideology once you see beyond it. It is all fictional, and if the fiction is causing misery, we should remove it from society. There are good reasons for intersubjective fiction in society - they create the bonds of mass cooperation, and removing all intersubjective ideas will eliminate civilization. Therefore, I am not an advocate of ending religion, or money, or countries. But I am very much an advocate for removing intersubjective ideas that have run their course and no longer are beneficial for society. And I believe the Manichaean divide is a dangerous idea, and is not beneficial for society. I believe that one ideology either must win, or that both ideologies must learn to be pragmatic again, and learn to exist without searing hatred for each other. This may already be impossible, due to the tit-for-tat game theory we have entered recently between the two ideologies.
After all this, I still back the Left ideology, even still knowing it is imaginary. I still believe, after understanding the two choices given to me are both incorrect, that this is the "least" incorrect choice for me, due to myself valuing the elimination of suffering. As well, I do not think there is anything intrinsic in either that "has" to exist, which is what a lot of the right ideology tries to post: that this is the "natural" way human beings must exist, and is the only real way to exist correctly. Clearly this cannot be true if everything is imaginary. Perhaps viewing everything imaginary is an ideology itself? I suppose time will tell on this for me.
Ultimately I leave this message for anyone reading this still, and for EviLore in particular:
Did you choose your ideology, or did it choose you? Do you see a vast swath of society to be the enemy currently, no matter which side you are on? While it may feel righteous now, what do you think is the end goal for your ideology? Are you able to picture the other ideology outside of it being "the enemy"? Know that they picture you to be the enemy. How do you think they are able to do that? It is not from them being "pure evil". They are people like you, and have been led to an uncompromising set of beliefs, just like you have. This is the way of the world. Try to picture what it's like if you, yourself are the enemy, because ultimately, everyone is the enemy in a game mutual destruction.
Stuff to listen/read/watch about all this:
- Living in an Unreal World by Adam Curtis
- open forum with author Yuval Noah Harari
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008OEMNNQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LDO62S0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0741F3M7C/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ODI4G82/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P2QB8M6/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753TN6G3/?tag=neogaf0e-20
In America at least, where I live, there has been a slowly suffocating Manichaean divide (re: "good and evil") coming into formation since the civil rights act was passed. The left and right have both slowly become more ideological over the last 50 years, and there is essentially no room to say "I am center" in between the two, since there is no center choice in politics anymore. It used to be that both parties in American politics contained both liberals and conservatives so both parties could compromise fairly regularly, so you could adequately say "I am center and above the fray" while picking either party but this is an impossible feat now. The Republicans are now exclusively conservative and the Democrats exclusively liberal, the code words for the two ideologies. And what makes an ideology? The idea of an ideology is to create an uncompromising set of values that the believers of the ideology (the "ideologues") can break or even see beyond the borders of the ideology itself. To the ideologue, the ideology is all of reality, and anything else is a lie from the evils of "the others" in society to twist the world into pure evil. Of course all of this is pure nonsense, but roughly everyone in the west now believes in one of the two ideologies presented by our current political systems, with very little else outside of the two ideologies to consume or enjoy. If you are not an ideologue to either side, you no longer have a voice in western politics, and again, in particular, American politics.
The two ideologies essentially consist of two separate ways of processing reality. To liberals, the two ideologies sound like something like this: (Oliver Bird's initial monologue from the FX show Legion). In the liberal ideology, liberals champion the power of empathy and understanding against an overwhelming force of fear, tradition and evil that holds back society from evolving. Liberals want all humans to be treated equally, invokes giving people who are deemed to suffer more a larger voice and power in society than what is currently given. In this ideology, the current society, or progressive society is deified as a better and more perfect society than the past. Liberals also, while in giving the suffering a higher voice, make the mistake of abandoning any of these virtues of empathy and understanding towards anyone in the majority position, such as white people, men, christians, cisgendered people, able-bodied people, etc. This is likely the fatal flaw of liberal ideology - in championing the rights of those forgotten by society, it has made an enemy of society itself. It is an ugly ideology to many people in the majority of power.
I couldn't find a pretty clear video that applies the two ideologies for the conservative ideology, but this is pretty good frame for some of it currently: (early season scene of King of the Hill with Chris Rock). With this video, you can see a pretty direct conservative point of view - a person in the majority (ie white) tries to exert their free speech, but is cast down by a peer group of minorities (ie black), who refuse to listen even when a rational speaker tells otherwise. This fits in pretty well with In the current iteration of conservative ideology, in which the vast fringes of society are the ones who are driving society towards some sort of "weirdmageddon" (to steal a word from Gravity Falls), in which traditional society is flipped upside down. It is the creation of a society that champion's minority's rights over the majority, letting the LGBT community, feminists, "SJWs", immigrants and violent minorities run rampant and destroy whatever made society good in the first place. In this ideology, the traditional society, or past society is deified as being a better and more perfect society than the present. I believe there are many more sub-narratives to choose from in the conservative ideology as well - the current "Trump" narrative is very different than the conservative ideology of even 2 years ago. However, all conservative ideologies make the same mistake every time - they do not have the ability to become attractive to anyone that outside of the majority, of which there is an increasing amount of people. It is an ugly ideology to many people in the minority of power.
These two ideologies have been in the human brain since the beginning of man. They have had many different names in many different lands in many different times, but it always comes down to whether society can learn to trust the "other" in society. From what I can see, both ideologies are the "other" to each other in an integrated society. They are the david and goliath of societies - the grand operating machine and those who wish to break it. They are the old and the new. The yin and the yang. And the Overton window shifts around to different parts of what is politically expedient in any given moment, which can make one ideology seem better than the other, or vice versa in different times of crisis.
Overall though, I find this to be a terrible system that always creates enemies for someone to hate, and it blinds people to a morality system that is unthinkable to change. While I prefer the leftist ideology, as I believe it reduces human suffering, which I believe to be the most important goal of an ideology, I think the entire system of dueling ideologies is inherently flawed. Outside if the pragmatics of current western politics, which leads me to believing in the left here is what I truly believe:
The world is imaginary. It is made of subjective and intersubjective ideas of which humans cannot easily or readily understand. Intersubjective ideas are subjective ideas shared by thousands, millions or even billions of people in unison, such as religion, money and countries. None of these concepts have any real objective meaning, but humans regularly assume intersubjective concepts to be objective concepts and are unable to see past them normally. There is very little in human civilization that is actually objective or factual. There can be objectively measured data, but what the measured data means is inherently subjective or intersubjective. All of history, society, culture and even your own life is a story. A fictional story. It can be bended, changed, played with and corrected. While it may seem that history is a series of factual events, it is actually entirely open to interpretation by the human mind. Anything can be almost anything to the human mind.
While I am not saying we live in a fictional universe, like the matrix or something, I am saying that what we think of reality is actually highly subjective - it does not have one interpretation. Every human sees reality differently, and many people are connected by large intersubjective ideas that entangle over each other, like money, family, work, religion, television, video games, and even this website. What I am saying, is that there is no reason for ideology once you see beyond it. It is all fictional, and if the fiction is causing misery, we should remove it from society. There are good reasons for intersubjective fiction in society - they create the bonds of mass cooperation, and removing all intersubjective ideas will eliminate civilization. Therefore, I am not an advocate of ending religion, or money, or countries. But I am very much an advocate for removing intersubjective ideas that have run their course and no longer are beneficial for society. And I believe the Manichaean divide is a dangerous idea, and is not beneficial for society. I believe that one ideology either must win, or that both ideologies must learn to be pragmatic again, and learn to exist without searing hatred for each other. This may already be impossible, due to the tit-for-tat game theory we have entered recently between the two ideologies.
After all this, I still back the Left ideology, even still knowing it is imaginary. I still believe, after understanding the two choices given to me are both incorrect, that this is the "least" incorrect choice for me, due to myself valuing the elimination of suffering. As well, I do not think there is anything intrinsic in either that "has" to exist, which is what a lot of the right ideology tries to post: that this is the "natural" way human beings must exist, and is the only real way to exist correctly. Clearly this cannot be true if everything is imaginary. Perhaps viewing everything imaginary is an ideology itself? I suppose time will tell on this for me.
Ultimately I leave this message for anyone reading this still, and for EviLore in particular:
Did you choose your ideology, or did it choose you? Do you see a vast swath of society to be the enemy currently, no matter which side you are on? While it may feel righteous now, what do you think is the end goal for your ideology? Are you able to picture the other ideology outside of it being "the enemy"? Know that they picture you to be the enemy. How do you think they are able to do that? It is not from them being "pure evil". They are people like you, and have been led to an uncompromising set of beliefs, just like you have. This is the way of the world. Try to picture what it's like if you, yourself are the enemy, because ultimately, everyone is the enemy in a game mutual destruction.
Stuff to listen/read/watch about all this:
- Living in an Unreal World by Adam Curtis
- open forum with author Yuval Noah Harari
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008OEMNNQ/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LDO62S0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0741F3M7C/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ODI4G82/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00P2QB8M6/?tag=neogaf0e-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0753TN6G3/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Last edited:
prag16
Banned
Not to shit on you in your own topic (and I'm glad you're in a better place than you were prior to this thread last year). But this narrative that gaf is now alt right, it even right leaving, is total nonsense. If you didn't see the political compass topic, check it out. The forum is still left leaning without a doubt. But the difference is the moderates and the right leaners no longer hide in the shadows, because Evilore and the new mod team actually allow and encourage spirited discussions that play host to various viewpoints. Most here still lean liberal, but the difference is anyone more towards the right won't get instantly dogpiled and banned at the drop of a hat. Instead of yelling and screaming, people can actually learn things, and nuance is actually allowed, as opposed to the purity tested "if you're not with us 100% you're the enemy" environment on Era. The left is still very well represented here. Just no longer many representatives the militant authoritarian left, which dominated previously.
The fact that you say the discussion here now makes you "uncomfortable" is quite telling. What's that they say.. When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression? You've spent so much in an echo chamber that it's not a surprise more honest and balanced discussion/debate could be a little uncomfortable. But that's how people learn and grow.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that blatant white nationalists and Nazi bigots should be given no quarter, and are a waste of time to try to engage. But I'm not seeing those types around here.
The fact that you say the discussion here now makes you "uncomfortable" is quite telling. What's that they say.. When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression? You've spent so much in an echo chamber that it's not a surprise more honest and balanced discussion/debate could be a little uncomfortable. But that's how people learn and grow.
I don't disagree with the sentiment that blatant white nationalists and Nazi bigots should be given no quarter, and are a waste of time to try to engage. But I'm not seeing those types around here.
Bryank75
Banned
Your post reveals a lot about you and how you have learned to see the world, like most Leftist Authoritarians you only see groups of people...in your case two. America is not the entire western culture, it is not the origin of western values or the peak of it and people like myself that are not from the US have vastly different political landscapes. For instance in Ireland we have two popular parties that are both centre left that differ only on some small issues and one is slightly more fiscaly conservative, all of our other parties are left-wing... Green Party, People before profit and Sinn Fein to name a few. NeoGaf has an international membership and defining the site based on your country's two party system and your assumptions of great swathes of people just isn't appropriate.
NeoGaf is a gaming forum primarily, we all came here to share our love of games and build friendships... over many pages here you see supportive caring messages, one after the next whether you were here or not, your post more or less gives the impression that you couldn't care less about any of that because we are not 'left' enough for you.
I'm well acquainted with many of the people who set up the other forum and they turn on people with the drop of a hat, it's ironic that they fancy themselves as experts on ethics and standards in society. I see the hypocrisy has rubbed off...
Honestly I do not believe the "marketplace of ideas" concept is rational in the age of Manachaeism (an ideological system of two opposing forces in which both hate each other) - no one is going to easily convince each other that the other's ideology trounces their own on the internet, and there is nothing in the middle to partake of, other than abstaining from thinking. Letting "multiple viewpoints" be expressed is just letting whatever side you don't like allow to proselytize - for neither side is this healthy. For this forum, it seems to have made a choice in that the left ideology is not allowed to proselytize as much as it used to, or be as dominant as it used to, which has led to the right's ideology, of which I think is unfeasible, to procreate. This, to me, is clearly a change in the system, moving the Overton window above this forum farther to the right, of which I think is unhealthy. Yes, the previous forum could be called an echo chamber, but literally all forms of communication are an echo chamber. You have escaped nothing by shifting the Overton window over something that does not exist: the center.
This also has nothing to do with authoritarianism or libertarianism. These two competing ideologies may use authority or liberty in their moral matrix, but they are ultimately competing ideas regardless of whatever political scale you use to measure them. Libertarians do have a separate moral matrix, but ultimately they will align themselves with one ideology or the other, as there is not a third ideology to actively choose from currently. As well, it's essentially impossible to believe in both at the same time without being very ignorant, as they are exact opposites on almost every issue. So if you are to engage in modern western culture, which is increasingly and intrinsically political at all levels, you now have to make a choice: left or right? nationalism or internationalism? progressive or conservative? life or death? Again I will state that I believe both are fictional concepts that humanity are wasting their time on, but I again have a preference in this limited game. I do believe it's possible to create other ideologies, but there are massive amounts of control and power on top of the world stopping this from happening easily.
Now I personally am trying to invent a third or different ideology created from a combination of transhumanism, dataism and zen buddhism, of which discussed somewhat in that last post, but I also have a preference in the two party ideology system, of which is the left. This means that I prefer interacting with other left ideologues, as I again find the right ideology to be abhorrent. And pretty much everyone is going to find one ideology to be more abhorrent than the other - it does no favors to try an manipulate the Overton window to appease all people at once, other than help whatever ideology you were not welcoming before. No matter what, some side is going to be unhappy with the political discussion, because there are only two opposites now. So clearly, this forum is now more right-leaning, because to allow both ideologies to perform when before only one was dominant is a transition from one to the other. There is nothing else that can be said to make this any different: the ideology of this forum is now clearly more right-leaning, not center. This will make some people feel better and some people feel worse, of which I am in the latter column, and there is nothing that will change this currently. No matter how you move the political spectrum, you are playing with a tit-for-tat battle between two opposing forces, of which there will be winners and losers.
So ultimately, yes I think this forum is headed in the wrong direction since it has shifted in the opposite direction than my subjective preference on the one dimensional scale that's used to measure everything basically. I do not think I will learn to grow by somehow shifting my ideology from one side or the other because the whole system is nonsense to me, and leads to nowhere. Ultimately this whole conversation will probably mean nothing in 25 years when data algorithms can out think the human mind, minorities become the majority in much of the west, and the cure aging is likely found. This is all nonsense.
everything is an ideology now...
Last edited:
I would also like to state that my personal preference for ideology is that of the burning of intersubjective ideas as I have expressed already. I am not a "authoritarian leftist" as I seem to be labelled now, but I do prefer the left over the right in the game of first past the post.
Bryank75
Banned
You sound completely brainwashed, what a sad state of affairs...
What do you believe in?
Bryank75
Banned
A rather messy mishmash of ideas and conclusions that I've come to over the years. I enjoyed Christopher Hitchens writings a lot and found him incredibly insightful and engaging. I was a militant atheist at one time but now I see my self as Agnostic or Humanist and feel Christianity is important culturally to the west and should be kept alive.
I'm for social supports and healthcare in wealthy countries but I am against mass immigration.
I believe in restricted abortion to those that were involved in a sexual crime or have a risk to their health, mental or otherwise.
The head of the party I voted for is gay and half Indian.
Am I a Nazi? What else do you need to know?
If you could choose between the left or the right, of which are your only two choices in this question, what do you pick? Choosing something else is not a valid response either.
Last edited:
Bryank75
Banned
Is this between Trump and Hillary or just generic left vs generic right?
Because I would never in a million years vote for Hillary as I believe she is a war criminal...
prag16
Banned
Well that's... something alright. If I wasn't on mobile I'd probably try to engage with some of this. But in the end.. I don't think it would be worthwhile. Not sure if brainwashing is quite the right word. But something went horribly wrong for you somewhere along the line.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
If you don't see the problem with this, then you are indeed brainwashed as
Bryank75
said.It is entirely possible to pull ideas from both sides of the fence to create a better existence. Western culture is built on that very foundation. This might mean you have to vote "right" but that is because the combination of ideas on the right is better than the combination of ideas on the left.
The problem you have is you see anyone on the right as Hitler and you apparently don't even want anyone to challenge that presupposition.
Last edited:
Then you yourself also house ideology. You believe in stories just like everyone else. You are on the one dimensional axis of good and bad like everyone else. You believe in many of the intersubjective ideas. but also you have expressed you disbelieve in some as well. You have a subjective opinion on how the world works that seemingly you believe to be the truth, or at least the preferred version of the world you want. Everyone has this. And at the end of the day, when we vote, we vote between two stories. Even though the world itself is chaotic and abstract and beautiful and it feels like we can be anything, be boil down to one of these two ideologies when we come home to be part of our societies. And I am on the opposite end of the system. I did vote for Hillary, as I believed her to be the better of the two choices given. But I am not brainwashed. I see how the whole system is nothing. How everything is nothing. It's fiction. This whole society is fiction. And that's what I believe.
You seem to understand that religion may be inherently fake, imagine taking that idea of a vast concept that most people believe in to being fake and try applying that to other large scale concepts. Apply that to money. And countries. And race. And property. And sexuality. And laws. And presidents. And history itself.
It's all subjective. The entirety of reality. And the things you think are real are fake. The things you think are fake, those are still fake too. And that's everything!
If you don't see the problem with this, then you are indeed brainwashed as
It is entirely possible to pull ideas from both sides of the fence to create a better existence. Western culture is built on that very foundation.
I believe in pragmatism, and I prefer that system, but we have lost that system in the west. Here is a good representation of the idea of assimilation:
Western Society used to be between L-2 and L-3. We are currently shifting between L-3 and L-4. ISIS is L-6/R-6 for comparison's sake.
The only way to go backwards is via assimilation, of which ideology is unable to comprehend. It's very hard to turn tit-for-tat around once it's started. Think of it like this, if you voted for Donald Trump, would you ever have voted for Hillary Clinton? And vice versa, if you voted for Hillary Clinton, would you ever have voted for Donald Trump? If the answer is no, then you are likely an Ideologue already.
When have I mentioned nazis or hitler or anything like this whatsoever? I do not make judgments about individuals like that at all - only about ideology. I will allow any of you to challenge my beliefs whatsoever, I just have a preference in the ideological divide. And with that preference, I prefer the side that think I causes the least amount of suffering to "win". Again, though, let me express that I do not actually think the system of dual ideologies is even necessary, real or worth elaborating on - I would truly prefer if the entire system ended.
I am saying though, that once people convert to being ideologues, everything outside the ideology no longer is "real". And that likely anyone reading this message is an ideologue whether they consciously know it or not. If there is any human thought that you believe to be true and others to be fake, be it via religion, culture, politics or family, you are likely an ideologue in some way. Politics in the west has gone through phases bouncing back and forth between ideology and pragmatism, and we are currently on an ideological bounce, where everything is become more divided and heated. I, like all of you reading this, have a preference in it. And I acknowledge that. And I read what the other side says via this forum, The_Donald, freerepublic, etc to understand the other side. But nothing is going to help if you try to remain "neutral" in a time of ideologues - you will become part of one side by default either way.
Last edited:
Bryank75
Banned
Then you yourself also house ideology. You believe in stories just like everyone else. You are on the one dimensional axis of good and bad like everyone else. You believe in many of the intersubjective ideas. but also you have expressed you disbelieve in some as well. You have a subjective opinion on how the world works that seemingly you believe to be the truth, or at least the preferred version of the world you want. Everyone has this. And at the end of the day, when we vote, we vote between two stories. Even though the world itself is chaotic and abstract and beautiful and it feels like we can be anything, be boil down to one of these two ideologies when we come home to be part of our societies. And I am on the opposite end of the system. I did vote for Hillary, as I believed her to be the better of the two choices given. But I am not brainwashed. I see how the whole system is nothing. How everything is nothing. It's fiction. This whole society is fiction. And that's what I believe.
You seem to understand that religion may be inherently fake, imagine taking that idea of a vast concept that most people believe in to being fake and try applying that to other large scale concepts. Apply that to money. And countries. And race. And property. And sexuality. And laws. And presidents. And history itself.
It's all subjective. The entirety of reality. And the things you think are real are fake. The things you think are fake, those are still fake too. And that's everything!
I believe in pragmatism, and I prefer that system, but we have lost that system in the west. Here is a good representation of the idea of assimilation:
Western Society used to be between L-2 and L-3. We are currently shifting between L-3 and L-4. ISIS is L-6/R-6 for comparison's sake.
The only way to go backwards is via assimilation, of which ideology is unable to comprehend. It's very hard to turn tit-for-tat around once it's started. Think of it like this, if you voted for Donald Trump, would you ever have voted for Hillary Clinton? And vice versa, if you voted for Hillary Clinton, would you ever have voted for Donald Trump? If the answer is no, then you are likely an Ideologue already.
The better of the two was a woman who started a war and turned an orderly society into chaos and mass murder for her supposed platform for the running? I'd take the tax dodger if I had to vote. My friend worked in Libya for ten years andloved it... now it's ruins and dead bodies all for a womans ambition.
You dont need an ideology to see that is horrible, just a basic sense of right and wrong... But I guess having a female president is going to make up for that. Yay equality.
You see the ideology now correct? That one side is good and the other side is evil? That you are on one side and I on the other? Do you think I think of myself as evil? I don't think you are evil for being on the opposite side of me on this issue, but it feels as though you are 100% convinced in what you are saying, as am I. Do you feel I am able to convince you against what you are stating? Can I come up with a combination of words that changes your mind? Do you feel you can change my mind?
Honestly, let me know your answer on this.
The secret to all of this is that neither side is inherently "good" or "evil". Both sides are SUBJECTIVE. Different people will come to different conclusions. What this really means is that both sides are fictional. What you would say about Hilalry Clinton and what I would say are both opinions. Opinions on a story. A story made up by other people. A story that controls what we do and how we do it. When you become an ideologue, as have we all, all of a sudden issues like these become a matter of "good" vs "evil", when in fact they are in no way objective or moralistic inherently. Do you see the ideology you believe yet?
All of this can be applied to Neogaf as a whole - the split between Neogaf and the other forum is all due to a STORY. A subjective STORY in which two sides differ. Because it's a SUBJECTIVE experience. And it's divided on ideological lines too. Leftist ideologues are prompted to believe the victim in a story first. I align with the left so I am want to agree with this as well. Therefore Evilore's story, of which is his defense to this story, is inherently rightwing, as it goes against the dogma of believing the victim in a story that the left abides by. This is the reason why Neogaf itself has shifted it's Overton window - it is in relation to the story of Evilore, the story of Neogaf, which is now inherently fighting against the left, of which it initially at least nominally aligned with.
But all of this is a story. A story which is subjective. And people can side with whichever side they want to. Just like everything else in reality. I just happen to prefer the story where the victim triumphs.
But all of this is a story. A story which is subjective. And people can side with whichever side they want to. Just like everything else in reality. I just happen to prefer the story where the victim triumphs.
Last edited:
Bryank75
Banned
Read 'Hillary Clintons Legacy in Libya', you seem to think my views are tainted by some ideology but they are not. Perhaps you are projecting?
I read facts, weigh up the information that I have and come to a conclusion...
You people have thrown your own intellect to the side only to repeat the same scripts and words over and over... It's a very small world you live in and I really feel sorry for those around you as it marginalizes so many, in your quest to 'fit in'.
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
Can you stop already?
You are saying that anyone who isn't an "authoritarian lefty" is automatically right and it's wrong, you know it, we know it, so stop repeating it.
The majority of users are still "left leaning". What actually happened is there is a group of people who are perfectly capable of rubbing 2 braincells together and applying some critical thinking to any given situation and found that the flimsy and retracted allegations against Evilore weren't worth any hysterics.
To think that not automatically writing off Evilore or attempting to burn neogaf down makes you right wing, then it's the same as thinking anyone who sits to the right of chairman mao is automatically hitler.
Seriously bud, do some critical thinking of your own and come to the realisation that you're wrong. You will be all the better for it.
Facts mean nothing in the abstract. Humans project meaning onto facts. The meaning is subjective. The subjective means it is inherently imaginary, or invented in the human mind. Your human mind has limitations, as does everyone else's. It's really hard to see beyond it. Seemingly you cannot see beyond your mind. But what you believe in, what you think you know to be true, is subjective. It is not objective. It is made up in your mind. If you died, the meaning you have in your mind for those facts would go with you. It is not inherent in the universe that anything created by humans means what it means. It is only inherent to human beings. And we are humans. We are not gods. Therefore what we believe in is not inherently true. It is only true for those who believe it to be true.
When you can't see beyond what you think is true, that is the meaning of ideology. It is when what you believe to be true is so uncompromising, that it can never not be true.
You keep labeling me as an "authoritarian lefty" when I am telling you the most libertarian, anarchic concept there could possibly be: Nothing is real.
Somehow this forum has latched onto the concept of the "authoritarian left" as an evil in the world. This is ideology. This is nonsense. See beyond what you are limited to see. There is nothing that is with fixed meaning. Everything is descriptivist. There nothing that is truly a prescriptive label, as you seem to be beholden to. Words themselves do not have the power you seem to want them to have. They exist in our brains too. It's all in our heads essentially.
how can I be this brainwashed authoritarian leftwing person you keep wanting me to be if I don't even believe in the concept of ideology itself?
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
You have been told by multiple users including myself that we can listen to and incorporate ideas from both of your restrictive ideologies yet you continue to pigeon hole us as right wing. Not only that, you also unironically point out how a user cannot see beyond his presupposed ideology.
Irony, look it up
You have been told by multiple users including myself that we can listen to and incorporate ideas from both of your restrictive ideologies yet you continue to pigeon hole us as right wing. Not only that, you also unironically point out how a user cannot see beyond his presupposed ideology.
Irony, look it up
What do you believe in?
SatansReverence
Hipster Princess
I believe I can have my mind changed by reasoned debate and free exhanges of ideas.
Should try to be a little less transparent.
Last edited:
So based on that who would you vote for in the November 2016 general election in the United States
Last edited:
bitbydeath
Member
Last edited:
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
This has been a disappointing turn of events. Honestly, I thought you were better than this.
Incorrect. Allowing "multiple viewpoints" is necessary for a community to continue to grow and thrive as well as society as a whole. Understanding and debating with your neighbor, colleague, and enemy can allow one to understand how they think, how they act, and hopefully create common ground for which both can stand. This forum has not "demonized" the left, it simply reveled in the freedom obtained from the loss of authoritarian administration. People are able to openly speak, debate each other, and understand where they are coming from.
It is also horribly incorrect to suggest that "all forms of communication are an echo chamber". I do not think you understand what an echo chamber is, so I will list it here:
“Echo chamber” is a term widely used in today’s lexicon, that describes a situation where certain ideas, beliefs or data points are reinforced through repetition of a closed system that does not allow for the free movement of alternative or competing ideas or concepts. In an echo chamber, there is the implication that certain ideas or outcomes win out because of an inherent unfairness in how input is gathered."
While one could argue that the inherent biases of a person can facilitate echo boxes from being developed, multiperspectivity (such as is trying to be built here) is counter to the fundamental concept of an echo chamber. You are receiving different ideals, concepts, and data. This opens the room for debate and discussion, something that was fundamentally lacking in oldGaf and over in Era.
Once, more - you are incorrect. Life is never in black and white, as you so clearly demonstrated as your world view in your recent comments. To put it simply: you can be a democrat and share ideals with republicans. You can be a republican and share ideals with democrats. You can be an authoritarian, but agree with specific libertarian goals and beliefs. In fact, this is how most Americans (and non-surprisingly, most people in the world) are.
Again, there are not only two opposites. There is a wide spectrum of political beliefs that you are trying to jam into two very narrow world views. Black and white. "Good" and "evil". You yourself even said you are "trying to invent a third/differing ideology from a combination" of differing ideals. That isn't new, S Sadsic - that is how most of the world operates.
The forum is only heading in a "wrong direction" because you believe in this very strange and restrictive one dimensional world view and refuse to adapt, change, or learn.
Incorrect. Allowing "multiple viewpoints" is necessary for a community to continue to grow and thrive as well as society as a whole. Understanding and debating with your neighbor, colleague, and enemy can allow one to understand how they think, how they act, and hopefully create common ground for which both can stand. This forum has not "demonized" the left, it simply reveled in the freedom obtained from the loss of authoritarian administration. People are able to openly speak, debate each other, and understand where they are coming from.
It is also horribly incorrect to suggest that "all forms of communication are an echo chamber". I do not think you understand what an echo chamber is, so I will list it here:
“Echo chamber” is a term widely used in today’s lexicon, that describes a situation where certain ideas, beliefs or data points are reinforced through repetition of a closed system that does not allow for the free movement of alternative or competing ideas or concepts. In an echo chamber, there is the implication that certain ideas or outcomes win out because of an inherent unfairness in how input is gathered."
While one could argue that the inherent biases of a person can facilitate echo boxes from being developed, multiperspectivity (such as is trying to be built here) is counter to the fundamental concept of an echo chamber. You are receiving different ideals, concepts, and data. This opens the room for debate and discussion, something that was fundamentally lacking in oldGaf and over in Era.
Once, more - you are incorrect. Life is never in black and white, as you so clearly demonstrated as your world view in your recent comments. To put it simply: you can be a democrat and share ideals with republicans. You can be a republican and share ideals with democrats. You can be an authoritarian, but agree with specific libertarian goals and beliefs. In fact, this is how most Americans (and non-surprisingly, most people in the world) are.
Again, there are not only two opposites. There is a wide spectrum of political beliefs that you are trying to jam into two very narrow world views. Black and white. "Good" and "evil". You yourself even said you are "trying to invent a third/differing ideology from a combination" of differing ideals. That isn't new, S Sadsic - that is how most of the world operates.
The forum is only heading in a "wrong direction" because you believe in this very strange and restrictive one dimensional world view and refuse to adapt, change, or learn.
This is a good response and actually feels like someone is reading what I'm posting now!
I have no inherent value in any idea being good or bad, so I can agree that anything I said previously is subjective and can be wrong. I am not an expert on anything other than maybe Ableton Live which is irrelevant to this conversation, so i can fully agree that my beliefs can and may be incorrect. I do also believe they can and may be correct. There is a concept of a "biconceptual mind" that George Lakoff describes as being someone who takes from both ideologies at the same time without ever truly belonging to one or the other; my position on biconceptuality is that we are in an age of increasing divide, and trying to play "both sides" no longer is a valid option in the age of the two grand opposites. My ideas of ideology are clearly biased on being an American, as I do not believe all other countries may be going through the increasing Manichaean wedge that America is going through, although many other western democracies seem to be going through roughly something similar.
Honestly, I apologize if I'm being too inflammatory with my beliefs, since I too am an ideologue, and am struggling to break the limitations on my mind. I agree that you can "be a democrat and share ideals with republicans" at least individually, but we no longer have options to choose from in our votes that allow someone like this to be elected. Democrats are almost exclusively liberal, and Republicans are almost exclusively conservative, and anyone who isn't is considered a traitor to their party at this point. The Blue Dog Democrats are more or less gone. The Rockefeller Republicans are long gone. The age of Reagan and Tip O'Neal making bipartisan deals is from before I was even born, and politics are going to continue to get more and more inflammatory in this country as this presidency comes to it's full conclusion. It's likely to continue being increasingly partisan for at least the next 25 years or so, at which point likely one ideology will dominate the other fully. When it comes to the elections, you are given the choice between two parties, and they represent two very different ways of thinking at this point, both of which are unable to compromise with each other in any easy fashion. While the individual may very well and be rational and able to be pragmatic on their own, it ultimately comes down to Choice A or Choice B in American politics. Even if we were to get a strong third party in this country, mathematics of First Past the Post would likely just destroy one of the other existing parties, such as when Whigs were taken over by Republicans. All of this is a byproduct of the Democrats passing the Civil Rights Act in the 60s - the two parties have slowly lost their moderate and pragmatic members over the years because of this, and there is now no "center" in American politics.
I do like in theory the concept of a dialogue between individuals outside of the ideologies of choice, but it just doesn't seem to be healthy to try and balance the Overton window in the center any more when you have two opposite viewpoints that are not even using the same facts or history to talk to each other - it's sort of a fool's errand to try and challenge someone else when you don't even agree on what the "facts" are. Which also goes back to my point that "facts" themselves are highly subjective regardless of them being based on measured data.
I'm sorry if my thoughts on ideology are disappointing, I've been thinking long and hard about this stuff since the 2016 presidential election. I ultimately do not know what I actually want from the existing ideology other than for it all to be destroyed - it all seems hypertoxic as it is.
Last edited:
Bryank75
Banned
It's not about your ideology mate, we all just wanted to see you well. You came back talking about politics etc. We are trying to have open dialogue here so bridges can be built and please don't tell me that cannot be because I have seen it happen in far worse circumstances i.e. Northern Ireland.
You just need to open your mind...
waxer
Member
I had an autistic client once that would ask what the weather will be like tomorrow. The idea that I couldn't tell with any certainty was uncomfortable for them.
On the day if their phone said raining and cold then they would stay in bed with curtains closed. Overdressed and hot complaining of the cold.
It didn't matter that it's sunny outside and hot. Once you open the curtain they would look, absorb and complain it's to hot.
On the day if their phone said raining and cold then they would stay in bed with curtains closed. Overdressed and hot complaining of the cold.
It didn't matter that it's sunny outside and hot. Once you open the curtain they would look, absorb and complain it's to hot.
prag16
Banned
But you just said yourself that you are an ideologue! Very little of what you're saying here seems to make any sense. I'm sorry to say it sounds more like a load of pseudointellectual nonsense. You don't want us to put you in an authoritarian left box, but anyone who didn't immediately tar and feather Evilore is automatically alt-right? Come on man.
Mahadev
Member
So you admit that there are two extremely partisan and hateful towards each other ideologies and your solution is... to accept that fucked up situation and continue contributing to the problem though censorship and hate instead of honest and respectful debate? You admit that the forum was proselytizing instead of convincing people and you think that was... good? You do realize that Trump's success was partly because there was a big backlash against these authoritarian tactics liberals are using, right?
As a very socialist libertarian for the life of me can't understand where you're going with this. Of course I chose a side and I can't hide how toxic and destructive I consider capitalism but at the same time I recognize how even more toxic and disgusting authoritarianism is to the point when it infests socialism and all its satellite ideologies it absolutely destorys their very core. Just because I think capitalism is bad for humanity it doesn't mean that my strategy against it should be through censorship and dirty tactics. Instead I try to debate people on the merits of my ideology and the clear proof of capitalism's failings.
shpankey
not an idiot
So, is this like Schrödinger's beliefs or something?
As an aside, and not a response to the above, just a bit on topic for me. The whole idea of not allowing a discussion of viewpoints is disgusting to me. Echo chambers, piling on, guilt by accusation etc are reprehensible. I believe the Nazi's used all of these methods effectively in their rise to power. By not allowing opposing viewpoints and discussion/dialog to vet anything out, ideas quickly become dogma.
It's funny to me, and leaving out the religious connotation of the word here, I do believe in "evil", as it were. In my mind, evil doesn't really care about ideology or principles or left or right or anything in between. If it can manifest on the extreme right (read: nazi) then it will, but equally, if it can manifest on the extreme left (read: authoritarian alt-left groupthink) it will. It will even use other evils as a tool; to be diametrically opposed to one kind of evil doesn't necessarily mean you are "good" by simply being on the opposite end of the spectrum. Bad things have countless times stood on the ground of good intentions, and any kind of dogma is certainly one of the classic ways of seeing evil become manifest.
koosa
Banned
Mod edit: Informal warning here; do not call other members names. Minor edit removing offense.
Sadsic. There's a world beyond USA, beyond 2016 election, beyond just two opposite ideologies and your quasi-intelectual babbling. I think you've spent too much time on 2014-2017 GAF and it seriously brainwashed you.
Sadsic. There's a world beyond USA, beyond 2016 election, beyond just two opposite ideologies and your quasi-intelectual babbling. I think you've spent too much time on 2014-2017 GAF and it seriously brainwashed you.
Last edited by a moderator:
generaldane
Member
I can't speak for those guys but it would have taken a miracle for me to vote for Trump were I American in the last election, however I will say that doesn't change the fact that the thought policing and moral superiority complex displayed by the extreme left disgusts me, you keep saying a center doesn't exist and maybe that'd the case in the US but you like a lot of American seems to keep forgetting that the world doesn't revolve around the US, it's just one of many countries albeit a powerful and influential one. I can hate the extreme right just as much as I can hate the extreme left and I do, just for different reasons and having taken it upon myself to browse forums of both thoughts you'd be amazed at just how similar the rethorics both sides use are which I always found fascinating considering how much they hate each other, they are essentially different sides of the same coin. There are things posters say here that I don't agree with but I'm big enough to understand that the world cannot revovle around just my thoughts and opinions and you know what? That's just fine.