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30fps is not really 30fps

Jedi2016

Member
Please read the whole post, this isn't a 30 vs 60 argument.

You see, when people complain, and you know the type of complaints I mean, about 30fps games, the games they're talking about aren't actually running at 30fps.

Most "30fps" games only target 30fps, but can't actually hit it most of the time. So many of them are actually 22-26fps games, and this causes stuttering, inconsistent frame times, and a generally very poor experience. "Why does this game run like shit? Oh, because it's only 30fps, it must 60fps or death!!" isn't a very accurate statement.

30fps, when it's smooth and consistent and does not ever, EVER, drop below 30, can be perfectly playable for many people (depending on game type). Take Driveclub for example, I haven't seen anyone complain about performance (at least not of the game). It may be "only" 30fps, but according to DF, it hits its target 100% of the time. When I played LEGO Marvel on PS4, I actually had a hard time telling it was only 30fps.. I had gotten into this mindset, as many have, that 30fps meant the game had to be choppy and inconsistent, and that's absolutely not the case. The game runs as smooth as butter, and I honestly thought it was 60fps at first.

I don't think AC:Unity would be having the framerate discussion if the game could actually hit 30fps and keep it there.. but from what we've seen, it can't.. not even close. And I have no doubt the game will launch in this condition, just like so many other games before it, because the devs can't bring themselves to turn some of those settings down a notch to actually hit a sustainable framerate.

Now, please notice that I have not once said that "30fps is all you ever need".. I'm not going to say that, that 30fps is just as good as 60fps, because it isn't. 60fps is, and always will be, the superior for any game type (regardless of Ubi's "cinematic experience" bullshit, which is just that... bullshit), and is an absolute requirement for many of them (shooters, for example, or any fast-paced action game, platformers, fighters, etc). But what I'm also not doing is saying "30fps is bad", because it isn't. BELOW 30fps is bad.. and that's where far too many games fall. Nearly all of them, in fact.

That's my whole point here... 30fps isn't your enemy. It's the games that can't even hit that simple target, and the devs that perpetuate it, that are the enemy. That's what we should be complaining about... don't harass devs because they can't hit 60fps. Harass them because they can't even hit 30fps.
 
Yeah a solid framerate at 30 is better than one that drops below it, same with 60, 120 and 144.

But IMO the higher the better in every case.
 
This is my only real problem, really. If these devs can LOCK their games at 30, I'd be fine with it. Really I would. The fact of the matter is games like AC:U will dip below 30, and that shit is noticeable.
 
30 FPS stable looks horrible. People shouldn't be accepting it and start to expect more from the devs this gen otherwise we are going to be stuck with 30 for a long long time.

Also this http://30vs60.com/

It also changes the feel of the game. Fuck 30FPS
 
Actually, I think this might have been largely a late-gen problem (historically has been for 3D games and even many later 8-bit/16-bit games had vicious slowdown), developers learn to better use hardware but they try pushing too hard to keep up the graphical arms race despite being stuck with now ancient hardware, so we get the system basically buckling. DSII couldn't keep up despite being a lower end game, most open world games had pretty poor fpses on PS2 especially later on, Crytek games can be a fucking mess fps wise (Crysis 3 hits a low of around 15!), etc.

Mind, I will find it pretty sad if Unity's final game will have those fps issues, but I can see those being worked out pre-release and it's more the late gen PS4/XB1 ACs that are a wreck.
I do have a question tho,

Why is it 30 or 60?

Like why is it 1080P 30FPS. Why isn't ever 1080P 40FPS or 50FPS?
Because of the refresh rates of TVs and that 30 can double nicely into 60 and 60 is self explanatory. It's also why 25/50 was a thing in Europe during the PAL period and 15's ignored because holy crap who wants to play at 15 fps all the time.
 
I agree. 30 FPS is fine if it's consistent to me, and I haven't once felt there was anything wrong with DRIVECLUB in that regard. Inconsistent 30 is trash though.
 
I exclusively play consoles, and I'm so damn happy I don't have to worry about 30 fps "ruining" the experience.

60 fps is a nice perk, but requires a lot of code optimization, which only delays a game further. Hell, my 120 Hz LED TV makes things super flowy as is, and it's yet to bother me. Locked 30 fps and I'm content.
 
30 FPS stable looks horrible. People shouldn't be accepting it and start to expect more from the devs this gen otherwise we are going to be stuck with 30 for a long long time.

Also this http://30vs60.com/
Seriously? You couldn't even read the first line of the OP that says "this is not a 30 v 60 debate"? And the part that said "60fps is way better, all the time"? Who you talkin' to?
 
I do have a question tho,

Why is it 30 or 60?

Like why is it 1080P 30FPS. Why isn't ever 1080P 40FPS or 50FPS?

Has to do with the TV refresh rate. In the US anyway it is 60hz or 60 refreshes a second. Being uneven with that causes other graphical issues

30 is half the refresh rate and 60 is synched with the TV.
 
I exclusively play consoles, and I'm so damn happy I don't have to worry about 30 fps "ruining" the experience.

60 fps is a nice perk, but requires a lot of code optimization, which only delays a game further. Hell, my 120 Hz LED TV makes things super flowy as is, and it's yet to bother me. Locked 30 fps and I'm content.

I really hope you turned off all the "motion enhancing" crap on your TV, because that stuff makes the picture look like crap.
 
Stable, consistent 30fps to me feels a hell of a lot better than the fluctuating framerates we had last gen. If a game is aiming for 30fps this gen, I want it to be consistent.
 
Seriously? You couldn't even read the first line of the OP that says "this is not a 30 v 60 debate"? And the part that said "60fps is way better, all the time"? Who you talkin' to?

Please read the whole post, this isn't a 30 vs 60 argument.

You see, when people complain, and you know the type of complaints I mean, about 30fps games, the games they're talking about aren't actually running at 30fps.

Most "30fps" games only target 30fps, but can't actually hit it most of the time. So many of them are actually 22-26fps games, and this causes stuttering, inconsistent frame times, and a generally very poor experience. "Why does this game run like shit? Oh, because it's only 30fps, it must 60fps or death!!" isn't a very accurate statement.

Sorry I should point out that I was calling complete bullshit on that statement.
 
Seriously? You couldn't even read the first line of the OP that says "this is not a 30 v 60 debate"? And the part that said "60fps is way better, all the time"? Who you talkin' to?

He's disagreeing with the notion that stable 30fps is fine. I do, too. 30fps is not fine, not even when it's 100% stable.
 
Please read the whole post, this isn't a 30 vs 60 argument.

>people already discussing about 30fps vs 60fps

Anyway, I'm very tolerant to this kind of thing. If it drops to 25~ in some moments it's okay. It won't screw the experience or anything like that.
 
That is correct, but many dev's/pub's are locking games at 30fps now because of the issues, i think they are going this route when they know they cannot get 60fps for a percentage of the time so decide to lock at a solid 30fps.

It is like saying that 60fps is not really 60fps, unless it is locked at 60fps then it is 60fps.
 
Also, input method radically changes how a 30FPS game plays. With a controller, it's far slower and imprecise than KB/M (Nothing inherently wrong with that, just a fact), so 30 FPS plays fine for console.

Infamous Second Son is a great example of a solid 30 FPS game. Not only does it look incredible, but it plays well too. For PC however, 30 FPS is very choppy / slow. Try playing Diablo 3 @ 30 FPS (PC), and click repeatedly in a circle. Then try 60 FPS. Then try 100+ and work your way back down again. You'll easily notice the rigidity Vs. fluidness

PC only players will laugh at console games targeting 30FPS, however, those with a beast rig ANND a console can easily see the difference. I mean, ideally, we'd love 60FPS for everything, but with the expectation of next-gen graphics comes sacrifices. Truth be told, this generation is a little under powered; but this generation won't be defined by the height of graphics, but moreso with how far wide we can stretch gameplay, turning linear games into open worlds...WITHOUT sacrificing core gameplay. Creating space fairing procedural games with an entire galaxy.

EDIT: TL;DR - Console 30FPS =//= PC 30FPS, primarily due to input method.

EDIT 2: OP sums it up perfectly, regarding 60 being the best, but 30 is okay too. I think the funny thing is, many of the games people enjoy (console wise) are 30FPS, yet they'll jump in a frame-rate discussion and spew vitriol about lazy devs etc.
 
30 is bad because you say it's generally not actually a constant 30. Ok. That applies equally to 60.

Also, the premise of 60 always being better is...true in a sense? But it's a question of how to use a finite amount of processing power. It's not a choice in the way most people mean, meaning it's not a choice without trade-offs. Stability in either bracket is the ideal, and that's tended to be how most people I see react to it.
 
stable 60 FPS >> 30 FPS > 30 - 60 FPS variable, in my opinion, especially when vsync is involved. The constant shifting between 30 and 60 FPS with vsync is pretty disconcerting.
 
For me I would rather have rock solid 30fps compared to inconsistent 60fps. Rock solid 60 is just not going to be very common this gen so at the very least have a locked framerate.

I'll do whatever I can with my PC, since it is getting weaker to lock it down at 30 compared to making it look like a Dreamcast game trying to go up to 60 and still having instability
 
Being stuck to the PS3 version of Borderlands 2, none of you know hell.

Christ that game runs at like 20-25fps on a good day. When a map loads or stuff starts exploding it goes down to the single digits. UVHM playthroughs with multiple people are like playing a slideshow.

That's what made me into a framers per second snob. That. Fucking. Game.
 
I'm with you OP.

I wish to play games @60+ fps every time, but 30 fps aren't a deal breaker and if the framerate is really consistent there is no problem at all.
 
Also, input method radically changes how a 30FPS game plays. With a controller, it's far slower and imprecise than KB/M (Nothing inherently wrong with that, just a fact), so 30 FPS plays fine for console.

Infamous Second Son is a great example of a solid 30 FPS game. Not only does it look incredible, but it plays well too. For PC however, 30 FPS is very choppy / slow. Try playing Diablo 3 @ 30 FPS (PC), and click repeatedly in a circle. Then try 60 FPS. Then try 100+ and work your way back down again. You'll easily notice the rigidity Vs. fluidness

From my experience with remote play, Diablo 3 @ 30 FPS also feels pretty choppy on PS4. It's certainly playable, but you'd be blind not to notice the difference.
 
Please read the whole post, this isn't a 30 vs 60 argument.

You see, when people complain, and you know the type of complaints I mean, about 30fps games, the games they're talking about aren't actually running at 30fps.

Most "30fps" games only target 30fps, but can't actually hit it most of the time. So many of them are actually 22-26fps games, and this causes stuttering, inconsistent frame times, and a generally very poor experience. "Why does this game run like shit? Oh, because it's only 30fps, it must 60fps or death!!" isn't a very accurate statement.

30fps, when it's smooth and consistent and does not ever, EVER, drop below 30, can be perfectly playable for many people (depending on game type). Take Driveclub for example, I haven't seen anyone complain about performance (at least not of the game). It may be "only" 30fps, but according to DF, it hits its target 100% of the time. When I played LEGO Marvel on PS4, I actually had a hard time telling it was only 30fps.. I had gotten into this mindset, as many have, that 30fps meant the game had to be choppy and inconsistent, and that's absolutely not the case. The game runs as smooth as butter, and I honestly thought it was 60fps at first.

I don't think AC:Unity would be having the framerate discussion if the game could actually hit 30fps and keep it there.. but from what we've seen, it can't.. not even close. And I have no doubt the game will launch in this condition, just like so many other games before it, because the devs can't bring themselves to turn some of those settings down a notch to actually hit a sustainable framerate.

Now, please notice that I have not once said that "30fps is all you ever need".. I'm not going to say that, that 30fps is just as good as 60fps, because it isn't. 60fps is, and always will be, the superior for any game type (regardless of Ubi's "cinematic experience" bullshit, which is just that... bullshit), and is an absolute requirement for many of them (shooters, for example, or any fast-paced action game, platformers, fighters, etc). But what I'm also not doing is saying "30fps is bad", because it isn't. BELOW 30fps is bad.. and that's where far too many games fall. Nearly all of them, in fact.

That's my whole point here... 30fps isn't your enemy. It's the games that can't even hit that simple target, and the devs that perpetuate it, that are the enemy. That's what we should be complaining about... don't harass devs because they can't hit 60fps. Harass them because they can't even hit 30fps.

You are completly wrong. Also...which board are you reading? I saw plenty of complaints that DC isn't hitting 60FPS.
 
30FPS mode in TLOU Remastered looked really choppy and slow compared to other typical 30FPS titles for some reason.

It's because you have the comparison right there, I'm 99% sure that's the only reason. People love to say they don't notice but if most games had a toggle I bet they'd think the game was broken if you suddenly switched it to 30 after letting them play 60 for a couple hours.
 
Kind of offtopic, but most games "stutter" when the fps drops (like, it literally take frames away).

However, there are games that when there's a lot happening, the game becomes kinda slowmo. Can that be considered a fps drop as well? I mean, the game is still showing every frame, but in a slower pace, so...
 
Frame rate drops are the worse, I agree with you OP.

A stable 30fps makes for a much more enjoyable gaming experience.
 
I like to think I'm good at telling the difference between 30 and 60 fps having been primarily a PC gamer for the last 10 years. But recently I had bought Ryse from Steam and selected the frame cap option thinking it would lock at 60fps and save my twin 680s from having to crank their fans to jet engine levels. It felt so smooth and I even showed my XBone owning roommate how nice 60fps is on a once 30fps game.

I then ran FRAPS just to see if it ever dropped... 31 frames locked the whole time. Egg all over my face. I could however tell a slight difference when I uncapped the frame rate and it shot up to around 80fps, but then it felt inconsistent with the frame drops and skips from 80-49 fps. In my opinion locked FPS gives the best experience whether it's 30 or 60. It's the frame rate drops that are the most unnerving.
 
I like to think I'm good at telling the difference between 30 and 60 fps having been primarily a PC gamer for the last 10 years. But recently I had bought Ryse from Steam and selected the frame cap option thinking it would lock at 60fps and save my twin 680s from having to crank their fans to jet engine levels. It felt so smooth and I even showed my XBone owning roommate how nice 60fps is on a once 30fps game.

I then ran FRAPS just to see if it ever dropped... 31 frames locked the whole time. Egg all over my face. I could however tell a slight difference when I uncapped the frame rate and it shot up to around 80fps, but then it felt inconsistent with the frame drops and skips from 80-49 fps. In my opinion locked FPS gives the best experience whether it's 30 or 60. It's the frame rate drops that are the most unnerving.

It's correct, just that a locked 60FPS is way better than a locked 30FPS. A locked 30FPS is probably still better than anything inbetween.
 
Well I see this thread has started out well.

Sadly the cult of assessing a games performance by frame rates and frame rates alone still persists. Frame times tell you much, much more valuable information that just the average over a second. So say a game is reporting it's delivering 30 frames per second but it it delivering those frames evenly? If it was every single one would be at 33.3ms intervals but that's not always the case. So over 1 second say a game delivers 28 frames at 33.3ms but 1 at ~20ms and another at ~40ms it would still come back as 30fps but would be uneven. Even worse if this happens more frequently which is where the sensation of stutter comes in. Some notice it more than others but a game that delivers a consistent update that meets its target will always feel smoother than one that is over and under budget all the time.

For further reading and understanding here's a thread started by mkenyon a while back.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=512976
 
I agree that games which are 30 with frame drops often get lumped in with locked 30fps games when the former is much worse than the latter. The same happens with so-called 60 fps games too.
 
That's what I usually hate, a game limited to 30 max has nowhere to go but down which is usually does at least a few times. It turns into a very choppy experience

If it was a rock solid 30 it wouldn't be too bad
 
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