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30fps is not really 30fps

Don't harass developers because they can't hit 60, but harass developers that can't even hit 30?

Yes, sure a nice solid 30 is fine (Forza Horizon 2 is fantastic), but why settle there? It's almost admitting defeat and making excuses for them to be happy they hit a solid 30. Thankfully, most games I can get 60 or higher on PC, and is only not an option when a developer fucks it up somehow.
 
Holy shit at people not reading the fucking OP.

Yeah, I agree, in my limited PC experience I wanted to get the whole 60fps bazonga stuff but my PC rarely handles that on newer games. So I sticked with "locked 30fps", guessing that it would look like a console game.

Nope, not at all, it's smooth, not 60fps smooth but looks better than variable framerate when I'm above 30 but below 60.

Lock the game to 30 and I'm happy, like many others have said already. And after beating GTA4 earlier this week in the PS3, I'd really have liked a better fps performance.
 
personally I boycott all games I can't play at 144hz because they are made by lazy garbage human beings regardless of how great literally every other element of the game is
 
30fps is also bad.
You can clearly check that a game is running at stable on 30fps with things like FRAPS and such, and you can tell how much less responsive and snappy the controls are, especially in action games.
In games where timing and use of i-frames is important, havin 30fps cap is just shitty prioritization.

Might as well copy/paste the post i made in another thread, as i would only repeat myself:

Bradon with your talk of 30fps looking "weird", pls. :P

I wanted to say something on the subject, and the AC:U thread is just too big, fast moving and heated for my taste, so i figured i'd use this occasion to post here.

The other day, as this debate popped up again, i was playing around in Dark Souls 2 (which i usually play @ 60fps on PC) activating and deactivating the 30fps cap, to note down various differences.
And, as someone who was always able to note the difference, and always preferred 60, i was still surprised by how staggering the latency was.

As a concrete example: When i pressed "B" to roll, at 60fps, i had barely the time to quickly tap another button, in the time between the button press, and the moment the character started to roll on screen, and i had to be incredibly fast, too.
At 30fps, the delay was so strong, that i had the time to press not one, but two other buttons, between input and execution.
This is a pretty big deal, for someone using a shield-less build like i am, basing all my defensive strategy on i-frames and perfectly timed rolling.

As another example, in Dark Souls 1 on PC, i activated the 60fps (thanks Durante) much later on into the game, i was on NG+, and was fighting the Four Kings, a pretty tough boss.
I tried it around 6 or 7 times at 30fps (again, shield-less build, based on rolling) and was dying pretty quickly over and over.
I finally decided to activate 60fpsand, lo and behold, beaten the boss on the first try, and without even using many estus(healing potions) at all, since i was nailing all the dodges.

All this to express my utmost agreement with Damiani's point about latency at 30fps, as well as to express my concern regarding Blooborne, a Soul game that, going by FROM words, is to be a more fast paced, more action and without the presence of shields entry... running at 30fps.
I would gladly take a resolution hit (as much as i love a nice IQ, as i'm playing DkS2 at 4k) to reach 60fps, be it 900p... or even 720p (pls no).

I mean, i played Demon's Souls and even Dark Souls (double dipper) on PS3 too, i know it's somewhat doable even at 15 to 20 fps (BlightTown nightmares) but i really think for a game like that, 60fps SHOULD be the golden standard, sacrificing whatever else is needed, and maybe even taking more time to optimize.

Seriously, i'd be more than happy to have Bloodborne delayed 12 months, with an output of 900p, but at 60fps, than one locked at 30, for the reasons explained above.
---
Beyond input latency, i was playing Last of Us Remastered the other day and, turning on the 30fps cap, i was getting straight up nausea, from the juddering you'd get, by simply panning the camera around.

So yeah, despite what i've said in the past (i was a "30 is not that bad" guy some time ago) i now believe that having 30 as a standard (for the most part) is actually a failure of prioritizing the wrong things in this industry, and a bad sign all around.
30fps with great eye-candy is obviously more easy to sell, with bombastic E3 presentations and bullshots, but it's exposing a certain shallowness for what should be more prominent as a standard: good, responsive interaction.

I still think there are reasonable exceptions and all that, don't get me wrong, i'm talking, however, about the status quo, and what that should be.


/rant.

tl;dr: 30fps is shit, and the fact that is the standard, is a bad sign of where this medium is right now.
 
30 FPS is mediocre and tolerably adequate at best. It's something we have to begrudgingly accept sometimes, but we should never embrace it.

I don't think anyones really 'embracing it'. The OP clearly states that 60 is undoubtedly better, and everyone echoes that sentiment.

The AAA industry overwhelmingly favours 30FPS, solely because graphics are a major selling point. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. More importantly, if Ubi (one example) targeted 30FPS throughout the entirety of Assassin's Creed last generation...why would they stop now?

It's literally the same situation, despite the hardware. Devs had the same choice previously...but they overwhelmingly chose graphics. I mean, I lost count of the amount of sub 30 games last gen. Dragon's Dogma. Great game, but one of the jankiest pieces of shit I've ever played.

I think the bottom line is, people can still play and enjoy 30FPS games, without enjoying 30FPS.
 
No game this gen should drop below 30fps. If it does, the dev screwed up big time.

That doesn't change 60 vs 30 debates though. 30 includes 30 and shittily optimized games.

"This gen" doesn't mean shit.
It is, always has been, and always will be, a matter of priorities.
You can get 60fps if you cut on other stuff, like you could on ps3, like you could on PS2.

The question is: Are you ready to renounce to eye-candy, IQ and possibly more, for that framerate?
 
I don't think anyones really 'embracing it'. The OP clearly states that 60 is undoubtedly better, and everyone echoes that sentiment.

The AAA industry overwhelmingly favours 30FPS, solely because graphics are a major selling point. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. More importantly, if Ubi (one example) targeted 30FPS throughout the entirety of Assassin's Creed last generation...why would they stop now?

It's literally the same situation, despite the hardware. Devs had the same choice previously...but they overwhelmingly chose graphics. I mean, I lost count of the amount of sub 30 games last gen. Dragon's Dogma. Great game, but one of the jankiest pieces of shit I've ever played.

I think the bottom line is. People can still play and enjoy 30FPS games, without enjoying 30FPS.

This isn't true. Unless you only consider open world games and RPGs "The AAA industry" and exclude Shooters, Racing Games, Fighting Games, liner Action games, etc. Not sure on Sports games, but I doubt that most of those are 30.
 
I dont get why developers dont just make their games locked 240 fps. Is not that hard. Juz do it. I know more about the technical sides then developers, cause i can see the fps difference. Im basically a genius.
 
"This gen" doesn't mean shit.
It is, always has been, and always will be, a matter of priorities.
You can get 60fps if you cut on other stuff, like you could on ps3, like you could on PS2.

The question is: Are you ready to renounce to eye-candy, IQ and possibly more, for that framerate?
or just buy a pc and have it all
 
That's my whole point here... 30fps isn't your enemy. It's the games that can't even hit that simple target, and the devs that perpetuate it, that are the enemy. That's what we should be complaining about... don't harass devs because they can't hit 60fps. Harass them because they can't even hit 30fps.
You have my sword. Been saying this in all the 30fps vs. 60fps debates because like you point out, that is the real problem.

30fps vs 60fps is a design decision and/or a technical trade-off. But failing to hit 30fps is a failure to execute, a failure to meet minimum standards, and a result worthy of mockery.
 
It's sort of difficult to actually hit your target framerate at all times because the amount of stuff you need to render is so dynamic, such that you'd have to allow so much headroom that you're barely utilizing the hardware 99% of the time. Especially in multiplayer games where control over the moment-to-moment gameplay starts to drift further from your hands.
 
A locked 30 fps is fine for most game's and most people. PC gamer's have got used to higher fps so of cause lower will feel shitty to some of them. Console gamer's have had sub 30 for a long time now and a stable 30 will feel very smooth. It's all the individual's preference. People can't tell other's what is best for them only they know what is fine and what isn't. Just because it's a "slide show" for some doesn't mean it is for every one. Forcing your opinion on some one is just wrong. If some one is happy with 24 fps then shit who are we to tell them they can't be.
 
Maybe if the people championing for smoothness and input response actually cared deeply about that stuff they'd be yelling for frame rates HIGHER than 60. It's not like 60 is the peak of some mythical bell curve, the higher you go it will always be better. If you wanted to be on the cutting edge, you can start calling devs that hit 60 fps lazy and untalented because they couldn't go higher and give you that extra precious responsiveness

I mean, when 120Hz TVs become standard, is that going to be the new rallying point?
 
I'm still sad that Reflections' upcoming driving game is only 30FPS, when they targeted 60FPS for Driver San Fran on the previous gen.
 
100%? No. It's not the standard of any fighting game developer or most racing or shooter developers. 60 FPS is the standard there. Action game developers try to hit 60 FPS most of the time too.

It's only "standard" in most open world games and RPGs, because that's all that they are capable of getting out of the current hardware. If the hardware was good enough to match what they wanted to do and what they personally were capable of then every single one of them would go for 60 FPS too.

It's not the standard for racing games or shooters. I know people prefer them to be 60fps.
 
Maybe if the people championing for smoothness and input response actually cared deeply about that stuff they'd be yelling for frame rates HIGHER than 60. It's not like 60 is the peak of some mythical bell curve, the higher you go it will always be better. If you wanted to be on the cutting edge, you can start calling devs that hit 60 fps lazy and untalented because they couldn't go higher and give you that extra precious responsiveness

I mean, when 120Hz TVs become standard, is that going to be the new rallying point?
I think it's because 60FPS/60Hz is the minimum framerate where you don't see the judder or splitting effect of 30FPS and below.
 
It's not the standard for racing games or shooters. I know people prefer them to be 60fps.

It's not? Call of Duty is always (or tries to be) 60 FPS. Isn't Battlefield 60 fps now? Wolfenstein is 60 fps. Shadow Warrior is 60 FPS. Even TLOU:R is 60. Metro Redux is 60 FPS too. What shooters don't go for 60 fps now a days. Killzone? Killzone being shit doesn't make 60 FPS not a standard. Racing has been a little split recently, but overall it's been the standard for the big racers hasn't it? The more open world ones have been going 30, but the more track based ones like Forza 5 are 60.
 
Well yes there is a stark difference when someone says 30fps and 30fps locked. If its locked its locked. If its not locked it could hover slightly above or below 30fps.
 
You have my sword. Been saying this in all the 30fps vs. 60fps debates because like you point out, that is the real problem.

30fps vs 60fps is a design decision and/or a technical trade-off. But failing to hit 30fps is a failure to execute, a failure to meet minimum standards, and a result worthy of mockery.
Worthy of mockery. That should imply you are compitent. Ship a game then you can act like an intellectual badass.

Gaf is so embarassing about all this shit. This truly is the most entitled generation we have had yet.
 
This isn't true. Unless you only consider open world games and RPGs "The AAA industry" and exclude Shooters, Racing Games, Fighting Games, liner Action games, etc. Not sure on Sports games, but I doubt that most of those are 30.

Killzone wasn't even a locked 60...in fact it wasn't even consistently 60. Destiny is 30FPS. Driveclub and Forza Horizon 2 are 30FPS. Sunset Overdrive is 30FPS. Shadows of Mordor is 30FPS. Farcry 4 is 30FPS, Assassins Creed is 30FPS. Alien Isolation is 30 FPS. Dragon Age Inquisition is 30FPS. EA Sports UFC is 30 FPS. GTA V is 30FPS Those are the majority of AAA games for the rest of the year.



Killer Instinct is 60FPS..but 720P. As for other sports games, well...I don't think its an even comparison, Basketball vs open world. Fifa looks like shit, consistently ( I say that as a FIFA fan).

Worthy of mockery. That should imply you are compitent. Ship a game then you can act like an intellectual badass.

Gaf is so embarassing about all this shit. This truly is the most entitled generation we have had yet.

That's a word I haven't seen in a while. Have you considered a career in "games journalism"? You seem to already hate your readers / community.
 
This is a console issue. 30 FPS very much is 30 FPS on PC, unless the port is garbage. When people say 60 > 30, they literally mean 60 > 30. More FPS simply is better at the ranges we're talking about. This is nitpicking the issue to a specific console problem of performance, or lack thereof.

If those console games running mid-20s to 30 magically got locked at 30, 30 would still be shit compared to 60.
 
I love 30fps with good motion blur. Got such a great look to it.

I love 60fps, too, but not necessarily any better in most 3D games.
 
It's not? Call of Duty is always (or tries to be) 60 FPS. Isn't Battlefield 60 fps now? Wolfenstein is 60 fps. Shadow Warrior is 60 FPS. Even TLOU:R is 60. What shooters don't go for 60 fps now a days. Killzone? Killzone being shit doesn't make 60 FPS not a standard. Racing has been a little split recently, but overall it's been the standard for the big racers hasn't it? The more open world ones have been going 30, but the more track based ones like Forza 5 are 60.

Nope. Dirt, Grid, PGR, split second, motorstorm, blur, etc... all 30fps last gen. This gen we still have a lot of 30fps racers, no 60fps standard there.

I will throw you a bone and say that we are seeing more 60fps shooters this gen, although BF4 arguably is not 60fps, more like 45 - 50fps where it matters. It was not the standard last gen (Bad company, BF, Halo, Gears of War, every other shooter which was not COD, was 30fps).
 
"This gen" doesn't mean shit.
It is, always has been, and always will be, a matter of priorities.
You can get 60fps if you cut on other stuff, like you could on ps3, like you could on PS2.

The question is: Are you ready to renounce to eye-candy, IQ and possibly more, for that framerate?

My enjoyment of even a mere menu in 60fps points to yes.
 
Worthy of mockery. That should imply you are compitent. Ship a game then you can act like an intellectual badass.

Gaf is so embarassing about all this shit. This truly is the most entitled generation we have had yet.
Fucking A, do I have to literally do everything myself in order to have standards?

You call having some kind of minimum standards entitlement? I call it being rational.

Of course its hard work, and that's why companies charge a premium for it.
 
30 FPS stable looks horrible. People shouldn't be accepting it and start to expect more from the devs this gen otherwise we are going to be stuck with 30 for a long long time.

Also this http://30vs60.com/

It also changes the feel of the game. Fuck 30FPS

30 FPS is inevitable this gen. Once something like Uncharted 5 or TLoU2 push the PS4 to its limits or unoptimized ports become the norm again then the 60fps target will become an almost locked at 30 to push as many effects as possible on screen.
 
30 FPS stable looks horrible. People shouldn't be accepting it and start to expect more from the devs this gen otherwise we are going to be stuck with 30 for a long long time.

Also this http://30vs60.com/

It also changes the feel of the game. Fuck 30FPS
You're the minority. The general public doesn't give a shit about fps. Let devs do whatever the hell they want, and let consumers vote with their wallet. The fun games will win out in the end, a lot of which you'll end up missing out on with such a militant attitude.
 
No one ever said 22-26fps are 30fps.

Its just that, 30fps feel in so many ways choppier than 60fps.

And even worse is when people try to convince me that they cant see shit between these two.

I HATE it that devs try to shit on gamers with sub 30fps moves. This is when i stop playing certain games.... Because in my eyes it becomes unplayable. I played videogsmes on videogamesystems because its so easy. Plug and play.

Instead, these days games have worse framerate, patches, loading times and what not :(
 
That's my whole point here... 30fps isn't your enemy. It's the games that can't even hit that simple target, and the devs that perpetuate it, that are the enemy. That's what we should be complaining about... don't harass devs because they can't hit 60fps. Harass them because they can't even hit 30fps.

How about we don't use irrational and inappropriate terms like calling software developers "the enemy" and not "harass" anyone?

Someone who is trying to make a video game entertainment product does not deserve to be called things like an "enemy" nor does anyone deserve harassment.

Are you even reading what you're saying? Do you really believe there is some kind of war going on here, and that people deserve to be harassed and called enemies of gamers because not enough pictures per second are being generated by a piece of software?
 
Consistency is the key to the smoothness debate. HOWEVER 60 fps gives you more reaction time and input you can get so much more in a second at 60 fps. It's why fighting games,fpses and spectacle fighters get so deep, you have much more time to do things.
 
And as a sidenote: we have not idea how the people who design and program games really feel about the fps debate, because what they say is filtered and controlled by the people that pay their salaries..

I'd say the fact that the overwhelming majority of console games from the past 15 years being 30 fps is a pretty good indication as to how they feel about it. It's not even a debate, just a reality of console video game design. Although it's funny that anybody who disagrees with that reality calls them 'lazy' or 'liars'.
 
while i agree that most peoples perception of 30 fps is built off of games that are not solid 30 fps.. going from forza 5 to horizons 2 or drive club you can def tell a huge difference.
 
because the original post basically says 'you think you don't like 30 fps but you really do, it's SUB 30 fps that you don't like so people are justifiably replying to say 'nope, i still dont' like 30 fps.

Alright, that is a bit of a bad statement of the OP, that he assumes that with every complaint that is the case, although he does say that 60 FPS is better.

Imagine if OP made a thread about how 20fps is smooth and perfectly playable. How would the people who have a 30fps standard feel about it?

I still don't feel like it would be relevant to compare 30FPS and 20FPS then. Fine if you don't agree with the OP, but bringing comparisons again with 60FPS isn't necessary.
 
while i agree that most peoples perception of 30 fps is built off of games that are not solid 30 fps.. going from forza 5 to horizons 2 or drive club you can def tell a huge difference.

It's funnny how many people claim that the 30FPS in the TLOU remake are "broken" or off or whatever, suggesting that it is different from other 30FPS games. Because it's not - the only difference is that, probably first in a lifetime, they encounter an instant switch from 60 to 30FPS and are finally able to notice how big the difference is. And it's so big that they believe that 30FPS is broken...well, who would've thought. Instead of finally giving up on 30FPS, they'd rather blame it on the dev.

The only reason we saw so many games with shit, even sub 30FPS framerates is, that devs get away with it. They can showcase great graphics on the cost of playability and sell more games via YouTube and channels alike. They don't get punished by reviewers for shit framerates, they don't get punished by players either. Original TLOU is by far the best example of this behavior, with Insomniac Games following close by. If you guys buy this shit, they will produce it. That is all.
 
A steady framerate (whether 30fps or 60fps) takes time and money, and often requires sacrificing the visual (and marketable) bells and whistles that publishers love. Having a flexible "target" framerate gives you wiggle room to please both the publisher and the audience. Put simply, a steady framerate costs money that few publishers are willing to pay.

Steady (and no tearing) 60fps > Steady 30fps > Unstable 60fps > Unstable 30fps
 
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