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4K Support : could it have a influence on which Next Gen Console you buy?

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KageMaru said:
Outside of the many potential bottleneck issues, I believe devs would also have to scale assets and effects to look good at that resolution, creating further issues with those bottlenecks.

We would have to look at a specific game and how the system handles a scene at 720p versus 4K to get a better idea. A system can be theoretically 10x faster/stronger, but that could apply to specific areas while other aspects are far less of a leap. Look at the Wii-U, it could have twice the theoretical performance of the ps360 in some aspects but if they go with 8ROPs, that would be a pretty big bottleneck.
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I think my post acknowledges the whole 'depends where the bottleneck' is thing, when comparing current gen at 720p, at least. 'Current gen at 1080p'-fidelity ought to be a bit more straightforward, whether 720p-calibre stuff would be renderable at 4K on that kind of spec would be a bit more game dependent.

Not sure I agree on first point, though. The games that are going to be likely candidates for 4K are probably going to be unlikely candidates for asset improvement anyway (given their relative level of tech ambition) - but it's not necessary for them to benefit from increased res anyway. Better IQ is better IQ regardless of the source material/assets. Of course it would be nice to ramp up everything commensurately, but IQ can be improved independently.

Anyway, just questioning the whole 'there's no way' messaging from some...if leaked specs are true I think it should be feasible for a certain class of game, and perhaps better looking games than some might expect.
 
I recently bought myself a brand new 55" Samsung LED and cannot imagine getting another TV until another 6-7 years, if that. So no.
 
bluerei said:
Actually, Yes. It was actually 2 2K chips outputting 4k native rendering, but yes.



No I'm not disagreeing with you, just interested in it.
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You saw them doing it. But at the wattage, heat, and cost levels for consoles? I too would like to see these magic console chips running modern day games like that even at 30fps even if they didn't have to come under the heavy cost, heat, and wattage use environment of a console. Even without the tex resolutions that 4k would bring, that doesn't match up with anything that is out currently our is close to being out. At least looking at the major chips peeps who are the two contenders for the console space.

Lynn616 said:
How do cards like the 680 and 7970 handle 4k? PCGaf help.
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They don't in single form. We are talking about an uber amount of bandwidth that doesn't even just demend on the GPU either.
 
gofreak said:
I think my post acknowledges the whole 'depends where the bottleneck' is thing, when comparing current gen at 720p, at least. 'Current gen at 1080p'-fidelity ought to be a bit more straightforward, whether 720p-calibre stuff would be renderable at 4K on that kind of spec would be a bit more game dependent.

Not sure I agree on first point, though. The games that are going to be likely candidates for 4K are probably going to be unlikely candidates for asset improvement anyway (given their relative level of tech ambition) - but it's not necessary for them to benefit from increased res anyway. Better IQ is better IQ regardless of the source material/assets. Of course it would be nice to ramp up everything commensurately, but IQ can be improved independently.

Anyway, just questioning the whole 'there's no way' messaging from some...if leaked specs are true I think it should be feasible for a certain class of game, and perhaps better looking games than some might expect.
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Yeah sorry, I was trying to add to your bottleneck comment, should have made that clearer. Also yes, you're right that it would be game dependent, just like resolution now with games.

As for improving assets, textures created for a 720p scene would not look so hot on a 4K screen, same goes for resolutions for various buffers, normal maps and such. The improved IQ of 4K would make the game look sharper, but that would make it easier to spot the flaws or cut-backs.

I guess if you're talking about a straight port, where nothing is improved, maybe it's possible. I still question if there would be enough bandwidth, but without knowing the specifics of the systems, it's hard to say.

In the end, even if it's technically possible to render a game in 4K, it does't make sense to bother for a fraction of your player base.
 
Perhaps they'll have at least one 3D 4K game at launch (like Ridge Racer 7 being the only 1080p game when PS3 launched).
 
The amount of effort it would take to make assets at 4k for the negligible benefit unless you have a massive screen, simply isn't worth it. How much VRAM would be needed to have a game full of textures at the 4k resolution and how much manpower would that take? 4k capability is fine for movies, but I highly doubt these upcoming consoles will have the specs necessary to make a nonDLC aka less graphically taxing game at that resolution.
 
Well... here's hoping Polyphony continues their tradition of breaking through boundaries.

GT4 on PS2: 1080i
GT5 on PS3: 1080p
GT5 on 4x PS3: 2160p
GT6 on PS4: 2160p?

Here's hoping they pull it off.
 
Karak said:
You saw them doing it. But at the wattage, heat, and cost levels for consoles? I too would like to see these magic console chips running modern day games like that even at 30fps even if they didn't have to come under the heavy cost, heat, and wattage use environment of a console. Even without the tex resolutions that 4k would bring, that doesn't match up with anything that is out currently our is close to being out. At least looking at the major chips peeps who are the two contenders for the console space.


They don't in single form. We are talking about an uber amount of bandwidth that doesn't even just demend on the GPU either.
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Two 600 series cards can't come close to that, really? And I don't think you know how cost levels work, that is completely negotiable between the two companies, but yes, it is cost efficient if enough is ordered. Also, you don't understand that consoles don't have a specific parameter for heat and wattage in order to qualify as a "console". All it needs to be is efficient. And you can get that with current and new graphic chips.

You do know that textures can easily be half the resolution of the native software and still look amazing, right?
 
4K is where things are heading, definitely, and by the time the next consoles are ready to launch in a year or so, maybe we'll have a clear standard for 4K home media, whatever that may be. Blu-Ray successor? If the PS4 can play it, like the PS3 could play blu-ray out-of-the-box, it could give it the edge it needs to differentiate itself -- assuming the nextbox doesn't.

And then it's always possible we could get 4K games, too. It's hard to imagine AAA games going 4K in the next few years given the extra costs associated, but maybe some indie games that have a small, tight focus that don't require a ton of graphic resources. Like Flower on the PS3, something like that.
 
It won't really influence me, I didn't jump on 1080p this generation since I know they weren't going to really go that high (went with a 1360x768 tv instead and never upgraded), I'm one of those that are still fine with 720p quality, even better if it's 60fps like some of the games early this gen.
 
AstroNut325 said:
Well... here's hoping Polyphony continues their tradition of breaking through boundaries.

GT4 on PS2: 1080i
GT5 on PS3: 1080p
GT5 on 4x PS3: 2160p
GT6 on PS4: 2160p?

Here's hoping they pull it off.
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GT4 wasn't 1080i just like GT5 isn't 1080p.

Also if that 2160p GT5 refers to what I think it does, that too has no bearing on the possibility of 4K gaming. That is no different than any other racing game that uses multiple systems on multiple screens.

Looking at your post makes me hate how misleading companies can be.
 
mugwhump said:
I don't think I'll ever even care about the difference between 1080p and... 4k. I don't even know how many p's 4k has but I don't care.
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Its easy, 4 times the 1080p.

4K-2-420-90.jpg
 
There is just no way the broadcast industry combined with government is going to invest the money to upgrade their systems again so soon. 4K will get even less support than 3d because the system requirements are so much higher.
 
I'm all for supporting new technology. I truly am.

It's definitely too early for 4k, however. It's in no way going to be a factor at any point of the next generation.
 
onQ123 said:
I know your 1st thought is "No 4K TVs cost like $30,000 & I don't need it & you can't see the difference on a normal size TV" but in 2005 the same was being said about 1080P now we have people wishing more games was in 1080P on the HD Consoles & PC Gamers point & laugh at 720P games, & also I noticed in just the last few weeks that 4K is the new buzz word & companies have been showing off lots of 4K TVs & even 8K prototypes so by the 2nd & 3rd year of the Next Gen Console cycle 4K TVs will be everywhere & there might not be any new consoles for the next 8 years so 4K might be a bigger deal than we think.
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1080p was very much feasible back on 05. Well, more so 720p since most HD content on TV is in that resolution. 1080p is a smaller, more realistic jump.

As it is now, native 1080p as a standard for cable content still isn't here and hardware that can run 4k resolution games well is far, far off (at an affordable price). Next gen consoles won't have the specs to run it natively, though games will likely be scaled to that res. The comparison in the op just does not work.

By the way, HDTV's have been around for a long, long time. It only caught on in the mid 00's for a good reason.
 
Maybe. The only way I would care about 4k resolution is if it supports 1080p 3D. But for something like that, I would buy the ~$800 HMZ model rather than spend ~$8000 on a TV.
 
4k is worthless. At best most devs will target 1080p with 30fps or less so what's the point? 1080 is good enough. Actually 720 is good enough. 480 is passable. Games are the important part.
 
4k is a lot of wasted bandwidth and memory at this point, just isn't worth it. I'm certainly not looking to replacing my Pioneer anything soon I'm sure broadcasting standards aren't looking for to spending tons to change the standards again. We don't even have 4k media for home use yet, blu-ray in it's current form simply isn't enough. At least a generation too early for next gen home consoles to be of any contention.
 
superbank said:
4k is worthless. At best most devs will target 1080p with 30fps or less so what's the point? 1080 is good enough. Actually 720 is good enough. 480 is passable. Games are the important part.
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I'm so glad you don't run any influential tech company with that attitude.

BigNastyCurve said:
lol no. No one will have the living space to house a display large enough to need 4k.
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4K doesn't require a large display. This is like the 5th person thinking that 4K must mean larger tv.
 
bluerei said:
Two 600 series cards can't come close to that, really? And I don't think you know how cost levels work, that is completely negotiable between the two companies, but yes, it is cost efficient if enough is ordered. Also, you don't understand that consoles don't have a specific parameter for heat and wattage in order to qualify as a "console". All it needs to be is efficient. And you can get that with current and new graphic chips.

You do know that textures can easily be half the resolution of the native software and still look amazing, right?
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Oh no I 100% do understand what I am talking about. Thats why I asked you very specific questions about what you are seeing especially as they impact specific board layouts and take into account thermal load in addition to the the console design specifications and manufacturing methods and tolerances across ALL manufactures of these kinds of products including non consoles. Easy math.


onQ123 said:
The War against 1080P of 2005 left a lasting effect.
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It always will. Vendor miscommunication and buyer confusion helped that right into the area it is now.

Also where are your massive posts with links to links!?! I was beginning to grow accustomed to them:)
Personally I want a new resolution. Orange. Just orange. No numbers. Just Orange-P. Orange Progressive! That way no one can claim to hit any higher. Because someone could just say..."Its not as high as that Orange resolution." Which in the end sounds like a drink of some kind.

onQ123 said:
so you read it & posted within seconds, with "no" even though it was a 2 part question?
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The curse of the OP my friend. It will always occur at some level.
 
bluerei said:
I'm so glad you don't run any influential tech company with that attitude.
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Me too. It'd be a hell of a sales pitch to get the average consumer to plonk money down for a 4k tv. I'd get fired quickly for poor performance I'd imagine.

bluerei said:
4K doesn't require a large display. This is like the 5th person thinking that 4K must mean larger tv.
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Considering a 50" 1080p tv looks amazing at an average viewing distance, it only stands to reason that you'd need a significantly bigger tv to see the gains of 4k. Correct me if i'm wrong.
 
enzo_gt said:
No way. 4K support already? With that amount of power in the consoles? No thanks, I'm good with 1080p and sub-HD games on my monitor for now. 4K will be another largely unused bullet point of the PS4 that will get patched into the 720 later anyways when necessary, so it will become largely irrelevant in the end when it comes to choosing a next gen console.

All the TVs in my house are still non-HD too.
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:-O
 
Unless they introduce a new disc standard of 500gb minimum, I don't see this as possible for next consoles. One 2hr movie in 4k res takes up 200-252 GB of space, and that's with no extras. (according to this chart)

Knowing Sony though, they will introduce this in their next console if only for streaming 4k content, 'cause movies(bluray's too small[including BDXL]) and games(gpu will not be strong enough for a decent fps) will definitely not support it.

It definitely wouldn't have any influence on what console I'd be getting, I always get 'em all anyway. :P
 
I bought my HDTV about four years ago, and can see myself upgrading in about 3-4 years. I'll probably only have a WiiU until then anyways, and make the decision to upgrade TVs or not then.

So... way too early to decide for me.

The TV industry is trying to recreate the HDTV buying spree people did way too hard though. I hope they learned with 3DTVs that it won't work.
 
likedamaster said:
Unless they introduce a new disc standard of 500gb minimum, I don't see this as possible for next consoles. One 2hr movie in 4k res takes up 200-252 GB of space, and that's with no extras. (according to this chart)

Knowing Sony though, they will introduce this in their next console if only for streaming 4k content, 'cause movies(bluray's too small[including BDXL]) and games(gpu will not be strong enough for a decent fps) will definitely not support it.

It definitely wouldn't have any influence on what console I'd be getting, I always get 'em all anyway. :P
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New Video Coding H.265


MPEG drafts twice-as-efficient H.265 video standard, sees use in phones as soon as 2013


All of that squabbling over H.264 may be rendered moot in the near future. The Motion Picture Experts Group (better known as MPEG) has just let us know that it was quietly drafting a new video standard while everyone was on summer vacation last month: H.265, also called High Efficiency Video Coding, promises to squeeze video sizes with double the efficiency of H.264. As you might imagine, this could lead either to a much smaller video footprint for bandwidth-starved mobile users or a hike to image quality with the same size as before. Imagine fast-loading HD streaming on 4G, or cable TV without all the excess compression, and you've got the idea. Ericsson Research visual technology lead Per Fröjdh anticipates H.265 coming as soon as 2013, when our smartphones and tablets are most likely to play it first. TV and other areas might have to wait, although Fröjdh is offering a consolation prize -- he's teasing a separate MPEG project that could give us glasses-free, compressed 3D video as a standard by 2014.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Video_Coding

" High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC), also unofficially called H.265, H.NGVC, and MPEG-H Part 2, is a draft video compression standard. HEVC is a successor to H.264/MPEG-4 AVC (Advanced Video Coding) and is currently under joint development by the ISO/IEC Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG) and ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG). MPEG and VCEG have established a Joint Collaborative Team on Video Coding (JCT-VC) to develop the HEVC standard.[1] HEVC is said to improve video quality, double the data compression ratio compared to H.264, and can support resolutions up to 7680 × 4320 "
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urfe said:
I bought my HDTV about four years ago, and can see myself upgrading in about 3-4 years. I'll probably only have a WiiU until then anyways, and make the decision to upgrade TVs or not then.

So... way too early to decide for me.

The TV industry is trying to recreate the HDTV buying spree people did way too hard though. I hope they learned with 3DTVs that it won't work.
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If I may ask... What do you propose the TV industry do now? Just keep trying to make 1080p sets cheaper? Just stop making TVs since it sounds like everyone is content with what they have for at least a decade? Perhaps the TV industry needs to branch out into other areas of technology like videogames?
 
industry will fail faster. small companies will be in more trouble. Techjunkey will still not be satisfied. No. Let the games be games. This stuff belongs in movies.
 
sony promised all games will run in 1080p on 60fps at ps3. so how do i know? even when they officially announced it (this time 4k) how should i know that they will actual hold truth to their words this time?

on the paper i will care about it, in reality i have to wait for actual support. i´m not going to spend some money for something theoretically.
 
AstroNut325 said:
If I may ask... What do you propose the TV industry do now? Just keep trying to make 1080p sets cheaper? Just stop making TVs since it sounds like everyone is content with what they have for at least a decade? Perhaps the TV industry needs to branch out into other areas of technology like videogames?
Click to expand...
Focus on making higher quality tvs. Improve latency. 4k will have it's time. Now is not the time.
 
superbank said:
Focus on making higher quality tvs. Improve latency. 4k will have it's time. Now is not the time.
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OLED and Sony's CLED tech will bring better picture quality and viewing angles, input delay has more to do with processing and isn't much of a problem anymore.

TV manufacturers focus on all these fronts; 4k is simply one of the future tech that is going to be available for the enthusiast market.
 
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