Support NeoGAF

[ReiGun]

speaking of objectifying women, who dat in your avy? TA

100% agree that I'd prefer Harley to go back to jester rather than homeless juggalette assault victim as she looks now.

Boob window on PG is a classic though, I'd defend that. We should not be legislating against cleavage so much, it's fun. Think of the cosplayers.

I'm of two minds on the boob window. I personally don't mind and think it's just silly little thing on a costume I think is great. And yeah, I have no problem with cleavage either. However, Power Girl is a great character and as a fan, it kinda sucks to see 90% of discussion on the character reduced to this one thing. If covering it helps get more people into Power Girl, then so be it.

And the girl in my avi is Moonrock from Turquoise Jeep. She's pretty.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Comics don't have to be niche. They didn't used to be, the characters they depict are increasingly not, and comic art in general is still universally popular (by which I mean newspaper comics, webcomics, manga, and just general cartoons and illustration are still very much things people care about)

In particular if in the next decade or so I have a daughter and she expresses an interest in superheroes and comics (two things that are not unlikely) I'd like it if it was easier to find comics that aren't sending the message to a seven year old that women are primarily there to look sexy for the (invisible) camera.

Yeah I'm familiar with comic's history. I do think the industry can be insular in a lot of different ways, and that helps keep it niche. I think the easy access to other forms of entertainment and the state of the print industry has more to do with comic's niche status though and little to do with values.

I don't see how taking the existing market for titillation, tell them they do not have the right to buy these books, and telling the artists and writers they do not have the right to make them is going to increase the size of the comic buying market.

Better by far to leave a niche part of a niche market alone and instead encourage all the comic creators that already make comics that match your values. And there is a lot out there already and more being made all the time.

Here is a great example.

By not trying to replace one group with another, fans of titillation will see no threat to a medium that they have kept alive with their money and support over the years and will actively support more diversity in comics for entertainment's sake alone.

It's a win win for everybody if diversity is what you actually want.

But what will happen instead is a group (group A) with no interest in comics at all will use this as a proxy values war. They'll ignore (in arguments and with their buying power) the broad range of comics on the market right now and focus on the ones that don't share their values as proof that the comic industry is full of bad men. And on group A's heels as always, are the internet psychos (group b) who will toss threats and insults at group A.
Group A will hold this up as proof that the comic industry is corrupt and needs change, they'll plant their flag and claim that they now dictate the narrative. Reasonable criticism or deviation from what they consider right will be brushed aside as misogyny or mansplaining.

And we're left with a toxic mess that doesn't help anybody.

 

[MHWilliams]

Are there examples of male characters that everyone agrees are oversexed to appeal to females? It's sounding like these are difficult to do without accidentally creating a male power fantasy.

In any case I for one think the industry is improving. Slowly but surely...

Certain male characters are sexualized: Nightwing and Kyle Rayner come to mind. Kyle hasn't been in a long time.

But again, artist intent:

And if you search for Nightwing fan-art, you'll find the character draw in a manner meant for female gaze. See the completely different tone?

People keep bringing up Namor, but he hasn't been in the thong-only costume for quite awhile now.

That's right, folks! They covered up one of the few super-revealing male costumes!

Yes, damn the industry for catering to their fanbase. There is clearly money if you change what you have been doing for years to make the bulk of your revenue! Trust me!

There are tons of artists that work in the medium, some that are more progressive than others when it comes to this. They will expand if people support them. It is not a problem, there is clearly no magical entity preventing people from making comics without scantily clad women (see examples in this thread). It's just what a majority of the people like to buy.

That fanbase has, and continues to, dwindle (I think we finally saw some growth last year) and there are others who have expressed interest if their needs were cared to. Women and minorities.

That fanbase can have their Black Cats and Spider-Women, but it doesn't need to be everywhere, on every female character. Thankfully, publishers, creators, and artist are starting to understand that.

I come at this from a slightly different perspective. I've been involved -- one way or another -- with the industry for about two and a half decades. In that time I've written comics, edited comics, run a comic books store, and generally filled my life with fellow comic book professionals.

In particular, I know a lot of store owners. And they would love if the industry would take these issues more seriously, because they're watching the industry bleed out because it can't bring new readers in, which is the worst problem the industry faces at this point. The industry can't sustain itself on aging comic book readers, and yet they've lost virtually all of the youth audience.

One of the places store owners have been finding new customers is with young girls and women. Older women tend to be fans of the non-superhero stuff, in part because of the generally awful portrayal of women in superhero comics. Instead they read Walking Dead, Sandman, and a host of other indie comics that have managed to create interesting characters whose tits aren't on display 24/7. For young girls, they've had considerable success with lines like the reboot of Strawberry Shortcake.

But the very presence of posters covered in half-naked women makes many women uncomfortable going into comic books stores. Watching dozens of guys stand around ogling the latest issue of Power Girl doesn't help either. Because they love comics as a medium, and want to see it continue, they know that they can't survive off of just the aging demographic of men who read comics. They need a wider audience, or the industry is toast. Getting that wider audience means acknowledging that current super hero comics aren't particularly desired by the female demographic, and that part of that reason is the poor, often sexist, portrayals of female heroes.

So there's considerable pressure, not just from social groups, but from the retailers themselves, and from industry aware folks like myself, to do a better job of portraying women. You don't have to care, but it's not being done to destroy the boy's club, it's being done in the hope that we can save the industry.

Thank you.

 

[Kyuur]

Do you realize how insulting it is to insinuate that male comic book buyer care enough of how their female characters are dressed that they would drop comics altogether if that was changed?

My point is that the people that make the decisions on what gets published don't know that, and can't take the risk of suddenly moving away from this kind of content. It needs to happen slowly and naturally, and the market will show them that it is viable.

That fanbase has, and continues to, dwindle (I think we finally saw some growth last year) and there are others who have expressed interest if their needs were cared to. Women and minorities.

That fanbase can have their Black Cats and Spider-Women, but it doesn't need to be everywhere, on every female character. Thankfully, publishers, creators, and artist are starting to understand that.

This is what I'm talking about. It is not an inherit problem with the industry that some think it is. As opportunities arise for the content the creators will move towards it. Fans need to be vocal about their wants for other content, but they don't need to trash existing niches to do it.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

Do you realize how insulting it is to insinuate that male comic book buyer care enough of how their female characters are dressed that they would drop comics altogether if that was changed?

I don't know if it's insulting. I got into comics for costumes like this Rhino.

It's pretty absurd but if somebody told me that costumes like that had to be removed I can see me putting up a stink.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Its because most comic book readers are male.

 

[MHWilliams]

This is what I'm talking about. It is not an inherit problem with the industry that some think it is. As opportunities arise for the content the creators will move towards it. Fans need to be vocal about their wants for other content, but they don't need to trash existing niches to do it.

Currently, this isn't a niche. It was most of the Big Two. But again, they're starting to twig to the problems. Well, at least Marvel is...

 

[Rorsach]

I'm confused. I thought Voodoo was part of the Image universe.

Voodoo was part of Wildstorm comics (Jim Lee) and their comics were published by Image. Since then DC has bought Wildstorm and integrated some of their characters in their own comics.
Jim Lee is co-publisher of DC.

 

[CadetMahoney]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbUpGoOjFWw

/dead

 

[Wiktor]

And we're getting them; I refer you to my post on the previous page.

The problem is there are still a few holdouts among the more popular characters. Power Girl's boob window, while not a big deal to me personally, should be covered; Wonder Woman's costume should look more like armor; Harley should go back to looking more like a jester and less like...whatever she looks like now.

Oh..come on.I understand the general movement to make costumes less sexualized, but requiring that there are absolutely no more sexy costumes ever is just plain silly.

 

[ReiGun]

Oh..come on.I understand the general movement to make costumes less sexualized, but requiring that there are absolutely no more sexy costumes ever is just plain silly.

Where did I say that? Nowhere. Just said that for the more popular characters - those three in particular, Wonder Woman and Harley especially - it's probably better that they be more covered since they have more visibility. I'm perfectly fine with there being sexy characters. I even said a few posts back that I'm okay with Catwoman and Emma Frost; you can add Red Sonja, OG Poison Ivy (though I like her new look too), and OG Black Canary to the list of sexy costumes I'm cool with.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I come at this from a slightly different perspective. I've been involved -- one way or another -- with the industry for about two and a half decades. In that time I've written comics, edited comics, run a comic books store, and generally filled my life with fellow comic book professionals.

In particular, I know a lot of store owners. And they would love if the industry would take these issues more seriously, because they're watching the industry bleed out because it can't bring new readers in, which is the worst problem the industry faces at this point. The industry can't sustain itself on aging comic book readers, and yet they've lost virtually all of the youth audience.

One of the places store owners have been finding new customers is with young girls and women. Older women tend to be fans of the non-superhero stuff, in part because of the generally awful portrayal of women in superhero comics. Instead they read Walking Dead, Sandman, and a host of other indie comics that have managed to create interesting characters whose tits aren't on display 24/7. For young girls, they've had considerable success with lines like the reboot of Strawberry Shortcake.

But the very presence of posters covered in half-naked women makes many women uncomfortable going into comic books stores. Watching dozens of guys stand around ogling the latest issue of Power Girl doesn't help either. Because they love comics as a medium, and want to see it continue, they know that they can't survive off of just the aging demographic of men who read comics. They need a wider audience, or the industry is toast. Getting that wider audience means acknowledging that current super hero comics aren't particularly desired by the female demographic, and that part of that reason is the poor, often sexist, portrayals of female heroes.

So there's considerable pressure, not just from social groups, but from the retailers themselves, and from industry aware folks like myself, to do a better job of portraying women. You don't have to care, but it's not being done to destroy the boy's club, it's being done in the hope that we can save the industry.

What more is there to say?

 

[flaxknuckles]

Where did I say that? Nowhere. Just said that for the more popular characters - those three in particular, Wonder Woman and Harley especially - it's probably better that they be more covered since they have more visibility. I'm perfectly fine with there being sexy characters. I even said a few posts back that I'm okay with Catwoman and Emma Frost; you can add Red Sonja, OG Poison Ivy (though I like her new look too), and OG Black Canary to the list of sexy costumes I'm cool with.

Catwoman isn't a popular character all of a sudden?

 

[Aaron-Lagann]

I always take the opposite stance on this subject. I want more over sexualization of women. But not just women, I want men flashing just as much skin, I want men posing sexily the same way women do. Not in the equality in your face kind of way that a lot of people say it, I like over sexualization as an art style and want to see it represented more.

Why can't we have more Giornos?

 

[ReiGun]

Catwoman isn't a popular character all of a sudden?

I didn't say she wasn't. However, Catwoman is one of those cases where people are okay with the characters being more sexual. Same with Emma Frost and Poison Ivy. However, the fact that Power Girl and Wonder Woman are always, ALWAYS brought up in these conversations as egregious offenders would suggest people are not okay with their sexual costumes. So since those two are so visible, it would probably be in their parent company's best interest to serve the desires of the market and change them, no?

 

[Wiktor]

Where did I say that? Nowhere. Just said that for the more popular characters - those three in particular, Wonder Woman and Harley especially - it's probably better that they be more covered since they have more visibility. I'm perfectly fine with there being sexy characters. I even said a few posts back that I'm okay with Catwoman and Emma Frost; you can add Red Sonja, OG Poison Ivy (though I like her new look too), and OG Black Canary to the list of sexy costumes I'm cool with.

You want to cover Power Girl's boob window. That's just criminal. I'm fine with dressing up Wonder Woman, but Power Girl's boob window is iconic and completely harmless. It's not like you can take a walk in modern western city and not see clevage just as big.

 

[chaobreaker]

What we need is more dynamic posing in our comics.

Just imagine a page with Batman and Superman doing this:

 

[SenorArdilla]

Obviously we need more costumes like this:

Open chest is still better.

 

[G-Fex]

no more god awful fanart please

 

[NeonZ]

I didn't say she wasn't. However, Catwoman is one of those cases where people are okay with the characters being more sexual. Same with Emma Frost and Poison Ivy. However, the fact that Power Girl and Wonder Woman are always, ALWAYS brought up in these conversations as egregious offenders would suggest people are not okay with their sexual costumes. So since those two are so visible, it would probably be in their parent company's best interest to serve the desires of the market and change them, no?

Power Girl's costume had been changed with the New 52 reboot into a full body suit, but there was a large negative reaction to it, and so they brought back her old costume.

 

[HK-47]

FWIW one of my favorite heroes is Phyla-vell, who is a fully clothed lesbian (although I guess her boots might be considered a little kinky).

The double-Ds do get a little silly at times - my wife rolled her eyes when I was reading a Carol Danvers Ms. Marvel issue, which is unfortunate, because she is a well-written character. Overall, I don't think there's something inherently wrong with T&A in comics, given their history and that a lot of the people reading them now are grown men who read them as kids. The story lines, themes and writing certainly have gotten more mature over the past 30+ years. That said, there's certainly room in comics for female bodies/costumes that are more realistic, and publishers would actually find it's a money-maker to have books that appeal to women.

I find it just a bit funny the least clothed female Guardian is the only one in the new movie

 

[SenorArdilla]

Power Girl's costume had been changed with the New 52 reboot into a full body suit, but there was a large negative reaction to it, and so they brought back her old costume.

Would you say that her costume has become as iconic as Superman's "S" or Batman's insignia?

 

[G-Fex]

Would you say that her costume has become as iconic as Superman's "S" or Batman's insignia?

The thing is that the costumes are just that closely tied with the character, they're the look they've been known for. I only know one Psylocke costume I know and love, same with Scarlett Witch.

Look at Susan from the Fantastic Four, they altered her costume in the 90's with that weird sexy outfit and it was terrible, it wasn't what she's known for.

If they somehow edit Harley Quinn or say Batgirl into some one piece leotard outfit it's going to look stupid cause it's not the character.

 

[Kinyou]

You want to cover Power Girl's boob window. That's just criminal. I'm fine with dressing up Wonder Woman, but Power Girl's boob window is iconic and completely harmless. It's not like you can take a walk in modern western city and not see clevage just as big.

And while the "I couldn't find a logo" thing is pretty dumb, it occasionally delivers some better stuff

 

[MisterHero]

no more god awful fanart please

those fanarts aren't very clever imho

 

[SenorArdilla]

those fanarts aren't very clever imho

See. Open-chest is still objectively better.

EDIT:
While we're on the subject, how would you want to change a superhero costume without losing the identity that goes with it?

 

[The Technomancer]

The thing is that the costumes are just that closely tied with the character, they're the look they've been known for. I only know one Psylocke costume I know and love, same with Scarlett Witch.

Look at Susan from the Fantastic Four, they altered her costume in the 90's with that weird sexy outfit and it was terrible, it wasn't what she's known for.

If they somehow edit Harley Quinn or say Batgirl into some one piece leotard outfit it's going to look stupid cause it's not the character.

The outfit that Harley Quinn is probably most known for (hell, the one that I certainly know her for) is the one she was introduced with:

You know, the one that actually makes her look like a harlequin character?

 

[G-Fex]

The outfit that Harley Quinn is probably most known for (hell, the one that I certainly know her for) is the one she was introduced with:

You know, the one that actually makes her look like a harlequin character?

Yeah I know they altered it..and essentially it's not the same now ._.

 

[akira28]

Power-Boy? I thought he was dead.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah I know they altered it..and essentially it's not the same now ._.

But uhm...

If they somehow edit Harley Quinn or say Batgirl into some one piece leotard outfit it's going to look stupid cause it's not the character.

My point is that she started out in a one piece leotard. It was her character. They have altered it to make it "sexier" and its why I'm disagreeing with your sentiment that you can't change characters.

 

[G-Fex]

But uhm...


My point is that she started out in a one piece leotard. It was her character. They have altered it to make it "sexier" and its why I'm disagreeing with your sentiment that you can't change characters.

That's not a leotard, that's like a bodysuit or something. Anyway making it sexier ruined it, I don't like the new outfit. Changing costumes is fine I guess, every superhero goes through with it but RARELY do they stick. Catwoman's new design has stuck though.

 

[Teggy]

I find it just a bit funny the least clothed female Guardian is the only one in the new movie

Yes, but they weren't stupid enough to try and recreate her costume in the movie.

 

[MHWilliams]

I always take the opposite stance on this subject. I want more over sexualization of women. But not just women, I want men flashing just as much skin, I want men posing sexily the same way women do. Not in the equality in your face kind of way that a lot of people say it, I like over sexualization as an art style and want to see it represented more.

Why can't we have more Giornos?

If you want to go this route, I'm down.

The problem is some people don't really want to. They want the old status quo: brawny dudes, sexy ladies.

 

[zoukka]

no more god awful fanart please

Truth hurts?

 

[StayDead]

By not trying to replace one group with another, fans of titillation will see no threat to a medium that they have kept alive with their money and support over the years and will actively support more diversity in comics for entertainment's sake alone.

It's a win win for everybody if diversity is what you actually want.

But what will happen instead is a group (group A) with no interest in comics at all will use this as a proxy values war. They'll ignore (in arguments and with their buying power) the broad range of comics on the market right now and focus on the ones that don't share their values as proof that the comic industry is full of bad men. And on group A's heels as always, are the internet psychos (group b) who will toss threats and insults at group A.
Group A will hold this up as proof that the comic industry is corrupt and needs change, they'll plant their flag and claim that they now dictate the narrative. Reasonable criticism or deviation from what they consider right will be brushed aside as misogyny or mansplaining.

And we're left with a toxic mess that doesn't help anybody.

I agree with this completely. It's the same in threads about video games with fanservice.

Catering to niches that like fanservice isn't a problem, I'm a member of that niche and I hate that people want the games I love to stop being made. Them not being made isn't going to aid in diversity, what you want is more people to actually make a wider variety of games and comics. Instead of doing that, they'd rather the people who already have something they enjoy, lose their media of enjoyment and it just turns into toxic arguments all the time.

 

[G-Fex]

Truth hurts?

fanart hurts.

Also very cute that you didn't bother to read a single other post I made so far. That's very cool yeah. I expected about as much from you.

 

[Parallax]

Power-Boy? I thought he was dead.

and in his wake took out two of my favorite characters

 

[CadetMahoney]

The outfit that Harley Quinn is probably most known for (hell, the one that I certainly know her for) is the one she was introduced with:

You know, the one that actually makes her look like a harlequin character?

Even though I like original harley best I think new harley outfits in the new games etc preserves "best harley" instead of diluting her.

Does that make sense?

 

[Anbokr]

I don't know, I think a lot of the male superheroes are over-sexualized as well. That seems to be the nature of the comics and characters. Hell, especially in these recent superhero movies, it's almost mandatory that the dude is completely roided up and has several shirtless scenes.

 

[MHWilliams]

and in his wake took out two of my favorite characters

That Son of Vulcan death hurt me.

I don't know, I think a lot of the male superheroes are over-sexualized as well. That seems to be the nature of the comics and characters. Hell, especially in these recent superhero movies, it's almost mandatory that the dude is completely roided up

For the dudes, not sexual.

and has several shirtless scenes.

For the ladies, meaning Hollywood acknowledges they have money and consume content too.

But we've already had this argument about sexualization.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

The skintight leotard/bathing suit is always such a strange costume choice.

I mean, when you really think about it. What the heck is the purpose?

I mean, leotard designs just look silly. Carol Danvers is a fucking fighter jet pilot and Wonder Woman is a freaking warrior princess, and they wear bathing suits.

I was glad when they gave WW pants. Captain Marvel's current uniform is one of the best I've ever seen. Stark, simple, just looks fantastic.

 

[Brakke]

The industry should take the market as endogenous.

 

[happypup]

Do you not realize this percentage is meaningless without other numbers? How many new readers are there? This is the kind of bullshit PR companies put out when sales are dropping.

yet sales aren't dropping, they had a rough quarter, but this is the trends from the last decade

http://www.comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

2013 stats

2013 Year-end
Comics Shop Orders
(estimated Diamond sales)
Single copy sales: +6.7%
Single copy sales (dollars): +10.22%
Trade paperbacks and
graphic novels: +6.5%
Overall sales to shops:
around $518 million
up 9%

this does not include digital access.

 

[MisterHero]

The skintight leotard/bathing suit is always such a strange costume choice.

I mean, when you really think about it. What the heck is the purpose?

I mean, leotard designs just look silly. Carol Danvers is a fucking fighter jet pilot and Wonder Woman is a freaking warrior princess, and they wear bathing suits.

I was glad when they gave WW pants. Captain Marvel's current uniform is one of the best I've ever seen. Stark, simple, just looks fantastic.

They look like circus costumes. They're cartoon people that entertain. The clothes allow for a wide range of movement and can fit under civilian clothes.

I suppose today's peoplekids don't understand what a circus performer looks like. Or something more 'utilitarian' like an Olympic athlete.

For what it's worth I think the WW2 Wonder Woman looks the best (aside from the shoes I guess).

IMO there's nothing really impressive about that Captain Marvel costume. It's nice they made her resemble her predecessor Mar-Vell though.