Comic book writers tend to be nerds, and they live out their undeveloped fantasies of women by creating highly sexualized female superheroes. In contrast, male superheroes are idealized rather than objectified - the (male) writer wants to be the male superhero (overpowered, extremely muscular physique). Certainly there are idealizations in the female superheroes, though.
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Why do we care so much about what female superheroes wear, anyway?
- Thread starter NotTheGuyYouKill
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Well Frank miller and Mark Millar are living out some sick fucking fantasies that's for sure.
I just wanted to know the sales split. Con attendance, Facebook like "studies" and other bs numbers don't help much. Overall sales are declining. Are you gaining women or losing men?
lovely ladies
Member
We care because Rob Liefeld comics exist and that man must never be allowed to draw the female figure again.
SenorArdilla
Member
He shouldn't allowed to draw any human figure from what I've seen.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Rob Liefeld has set back the art of drawing women a decade.
My favourite female superhero costume is Captain Marvel's (even though I don't read the title):
I personally don't think the design is overtly sexual. It's actually more militarized than anything. Characters like Catwoman, it makes sense for their costumes to be more...
Lithe?
My favourite female superhero costume is Captain Marvel's (even though I don't read the title):
I personally don't think the design is overtly sexual. It's actually more militarized than anything. Characters like Catwoman, it makes sense for their costumes to be more...
Lithe?
http://www.themarysue.com/young-women-comic-demographic-growing/
I think this is the third time this has been posted. 20% of new readers on comixology are females ages 17-26. The fasted growing demographic is females 17-33, comic stores are reworking their inventory to appeal to a larger female fan base. Women are reading comics, quite a lot of them. As to the bs numbers, I think fan convention attendance is a pretty good metric, as are facebook surveys of self identified comic fans. That DC's new 52 didn't gain traction with female audience members might be do to things like this
MHWilliams
Member
Even if you bring it down to just skin, there's how the characters are handled.
For example, he's the former Ms.Marvel, Carol Danvers, in her old duds.
And her again:
The same basic form, but one is drawn in a way that exudes power, while the other is crafted (with questionable anatomy and perspective) to draw your eye to other assets. That before you even get to her amazing Captain Marvel outfit, which is a much better fit for the character.
I'm not a big fan of the basic Wonder Woman outfit, but even there there's way to portray her in a more sexual manner:
or a more powerful one:
In the same manner, you can turn a modest full body costume:
Into a show for tits and ass.
Intent matters, and many times what happens is the artist's intent clashes with the character itself. Not all these character fits in skimpy clothing and sexual poses, and yet that hammer is brought to bear time and time again.
We're saying, "hey, that's stupid". You can have your Catwoman and Black Cat, but not every female superhero needs to be that.
And yes, it's been getting better.
What if I like Miss Marvel's old costume? What if I like the sexy costumes of super heroines?
Does that make me an asshole or sick pervert?
MHWilliams
Member
No, but it doesn't need to be the norm and it doesn't fit all characters.
We're asking that artists and creators stop trying to fit all the characters in the same square hole.
That's fine.
pants
Member
Not in fighting I know (boxing, MMA etc)
lovely ladies
Member
I don't think there's any problems with sexy costumes, those are awesome, it's more how certain artists tackle them. That above posted Rogue picture with Gambit looks great, it's a nice looking cover but that ass crack, I mean what is that...
MHWilliams
Member
I actually really liked that Rogue and Gambit cover(I own the issue)
I do think the ass shot is a little ridiculous, though.
I felt the Rogue Magneto cover was better.
Eh. I prefer her outfit in the Gambit cover. I also really love Gambit's design on the issue.
I just think her pose is better in the Magneto one because she's not doing some weird spine bend like she is with Gambit.
No clue, yeah it's pretty bad.
Let's not forget Miller's god awful obsessions with women in such ways.
never understood their relationship
Murder. She Wrote
Member
Bravo, that's a great post, really puts things into perspective.
Serpentine
Banned
y'all Liefeld haters up in here. Yeah, i know those Avengelyne/Glory covers are.... something, but let's not pretend like his contemporaries didn't have the same problem
note the poses on Psylocke, Rogue, and Dazzler and how they're all the goddamn same
damn, well said.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Prototype Viktor
Member
It never ceases to amaze me the weight that everyone and their mother (both liberals and conservatives) puts one how girls dresses, even fictional girls. If I ever have a daughter I will tell her to dress as whoever she please, because goddamn, this is getting ridiculous.
About the issue in hand, most super hero costumes are indeed stupid, skimpy and impractical, but this is something that I see that it's applied for both men and women. The article's criticism is misguided because it is not the outfit per se. It has alot more to do with the ridiculous poses, the context being the key world here. The pavlovian reaction "skimpy outfit = sexualization" is ridiculously prudish. Every superhero is a fantasy, and their bodies are meant to be part of said fantasy. They are perfectly sculpted and exhibited, in Greek hero fashion style. The problem is how they are exhibited, wich is why this image points out the root of the problem far better than this other one.
And btw, the last point of the article is patently wrong. Period. One of the main problems of comics is that there is no interest or whatsoever into making comics for children, all of them are aimed at the teenage market. I have yet to find one single superhero comic that I am able to read along with my 6 year old nephew, despite of how much he loves superheroes and their antics. Asterix barely cuts it :/
About the issue in hand, most super hero costumes are indeed stupid, skimpy and impractical, but this is something that I see that it's applied for both men and women. The article's criticism is misguided because it is not the outfit per se. It has alot more to do with the ridiculous poses, the context being the key world here. The pavlovian reaction "skimpy outfit = sexualization" is ridiculously prudish. Every superhero is a fantasy, and their bodies are meant to be part of said fantasy. They are perfectly sculpted and exhibited, in Greek hero fashion style. The problem is how they are exhibited, wich is why this image points out the root of the problem far better than this other one.
And btw, the last point of the article is patently wrong. Period. One of the main problems of comics is that there is no interest or whatsoever into making comics for children, all of them are aimed at the teenage market. I have yet to find one single superhero comic that I am able to read along with my 6 year old nephew, despite of how much he loves superheroes and their antics. Asterix barely cuts it :/
I don't pay much attention these days to any costume unless its pretty silly. In the 90s, about every character was wearing something stupid. Its hard to use those as relevant examples.
I will fight you.
I will fight you.
Even if you bring it down to just skin, there's how the characters are handled.
For example, he's the former Ms.Marvel, Carol Danvers, in her old duds.
And her again:
The same basic form, but one is drawn in a way that exudes power, while the other is crafted (with questionable anatomy and perspective) to draw your eye to other assets. That before you even get to her amazing Captain Marvel outfit, which is a much better fit for the character.
I'm not a big fan of the basic Wonder Woman outfit, but even there there's way to portray her in a more sexual manner:
or a more powerful one:
In the same manner, you can turn a modest full body costume:
Into a show for tits and ass.
Intent matters, and many times what happens is the artist's intent clashes with the character itself. Not all these character fits in skimpy clothing and sexual poses, and yet that hammer is brought to bear time and time again.
We're saying, "hey, that's stupid". You can have your Catwoman and Black Cat, but not every female superhero needs to be that.
And yes, it's been getting better.
Great post, some good points.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
It's the difference between 'good' art and 'bad' art IMO. A decent artist isn't just drawing tits n ass.
I think that no matter what there'll always be an element of sexualisation dealing with women in most forms of media, and I don't know if it can or even should be wiped away. Sex is fun, a bit of a sexy costume is fun. In real life some women will wear revealing clothing - certainly more than men will. It's part of how women present themselves in this world.
I think that no matter what there'll always be an element of sexualisation dealing with women in most forms of media, and I don't know if it can or even should be wiped away. Sex is fun, a bit of a sexy costume is fun. In real life some women will wear revealing clothing - certainly more than men will. It's part of how women present themselves in this world.
Finaika
Member
Someone who gets angry & smashes things all the time is a nice personality?
Doctoglethorpe
Member
Because Men control their own sex appeal where as women generally have had to take what men give them. You let a woman design hypersexualized male characters they will be just as ridiculous looking as women designed by men are. And I'm cool with that.
Do I think every character should be sexualized? No. Not even most. But I also don't think sexualized characters should be erased in some political correction campaign. Let men have their eye candy and give girls eye candy too.
Theres a market for sex and sexuality, thats only natural really. The only real issue until recently is that men have controlled that market almost exclusively. More women (and more importantly more open minded people) in the writers and drawers seats will balance this out not just by designing less sexualized women, but also in designing more sexualized men, and more sexualized characters that appeal to LGBTs.
Whoever posted TERA, that was a fantastic example of balanced sexual content. Party poopers want there to be no sexuality. I say let everyone have it.
MisterGrey3000
Member
lol
Face it, there is no way to make the Hulk attractive unless you redesign him to look like a green Chris Hemsworth who took an anger management class.
I personally don't understand why sexualisation in fiction is an entirely bad thing and I find it very hard to find any issues with it. It's not real, the characters especially in comics are ALL (both male and female) completely over the top powerful and sexualised (powerful even in the womens cases too) and them being the way they are is not hurting anyone.
You may have one or two people who can't discern fiction from reality, but the majority of people realise these characters are ficticious and don't look to them as a replacement for real women or give people unrealistic expectations. Even if they did, what's the problem with there?
I've seen costumes more overtly sexual come from the fashion industry than anything I've seen in games and that's a medium entirely aimed at the female market. Infact, just look at the clothes the vast majority of women wear outside in the summer. It's not the outfits that make something sexy, it's the person that's sexy and someone being sexy or open about their sexuality is not a bad thing.
You may have one or two people who can't discern fiction from reality, but the majority of people realise these characters are ficticious and don't look to them as a replacement for real women or give people unrealistic expectations. Even if they did, what's the problem with there?
I've seen costumes more overtly sexual come from the fashion industry than anything I've seen in games and that's a medium entirely aimed at the female market. Infact, just look at the clothes the vast majority of women wear outside in the summer. It's not the outfits that make something sexy, it's the person that's sexy and someone being sexy or open about their sexuality is not a bad thing.
I'm a bit surprised that they gave her a cleavage and bare midriff. Her standard costume is so tight that it doesn't leave much for the imagination anyway.
Although it seems like he's been ruled out cause. . uh. .. reasons? Dude has a history wooing females of about every variety. Saying who its meant to appeal to is a bit beyond me, but stuff like that seems like it would be subjective as far as the reader goes.
not psycho
Member
In fairness, it's not easy to get skintight outfits on butts to look modest. You can go with something more subtle:
But you're just as likely to end up with:
Seriously though, I agree with almost everything you said, and you gave good examples. In that post I was talking about another part of the issue, in addition to the fact that artists draw female characters in far more sexualized outfits and poses.
In our culture men and women in skimpy clothing are not perceived the same way, not sexualized the same way, and don't have the same ease in being seen as powerful. Men have a pretty easy time of being seen as powerful while barely dressed (pro wrestling, 300) while womens' bodies are more sexualized in general. That's why I think all the equality debates are missing the point. There is no such thing as "equality" of dress and poses in a culture which doesn't treat them the same. The debate can get bogged down by this when what we (probably) really want is more variety, and the outfits and poses that are suitable for those various characters.
The one thing I disagree with you on is intent. I honestly don't care if an artist drawing males thinks of them as being a power fantasy or being sexy or both. And if an artist draws females in a way you like, would you care if secretly he draws them that way because he finds them sexy? "Good" or "bad" art can stand on its own.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Someone at Marvel Studios is likely working on a Captain Marvel film as we speak
hopefully that person has this picture shoved into their face daily
It's kind of perfect
hopefully that person has this picture shoved into their face daily
It's kind of perfect
MisterGrey3000
Member
Our entertainment can most certainly influence the way people think. It can create new stereotypes, and exaggerate existing ones.
When the majority of female super heroes are portrayed as latex wearing sex kittens with boob windows it basically reinforces the idea that female characters are just eye candy for the audience to be aroused by.
Wiktor
Member
I do think female superheroes are getting oversexualized often and it often looks ridiculous. At the same time though, that Superman pic is completely idiotic. Because men do not dress like this, superheroes or not. Meanwhile revealing a lot of skin, clevage included, has for a long time been a constant part of female fashion.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
It's not bare, it's yellow fabric. Marvel heroes in space usually have their costumes showing so you can tell who they are still.
anarckitty
Member
Some women. I laughed out loud in the scene where Captain American walks out of the bathroom shirtless when he and Black Widow are crashing at Falcon's place. He looked ridiculous. Kind of like he was about to burst.
[/IMG]
I'm confused. I thought Voodoo was part of the Image universe.
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
Burst with semen you mean. SO MANLY
Jedeye Sniv
Banned
God bless thick cosplay ladies
/sexism
/sexism
An actual TV show.
My solution is simpler. I just don't watch it.People say good things but I don't care
The creator (Greg Berlanti) is a gay male. He knows how to exploit the male form.
Haha, this reminds me how simon pegg got attacked over expressing his love for slave lea cosplay
I'd figure seeing the just the head with mask would have been enough to identify her, but true, they'd all look the same from the neck down which might be too boring for a comic book
People are obsessed by what they're predisposed to find attractive, but how many people dress like superheroes? Both male and female representations are taken to an unrealistic extreme.
I don't see a problem/solution to anything here. We won't start legislating for how fictional characters ought to dress.
I don't see a problem/solution to anything here. We won't start legislating for how fictional characters ought to dress.
I will turn this around on you and show me a fat superhero (joke movies/comics aside), a short superhero or an ugly superhero.
I'm fully on board with the "give female superheroes better outfits." But to pretend that the males are not objectified as well is nonsense too, they're all buff, attractive and often succesful men. That too is objectification.
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