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[DeathbyCheerios]

It absolutely blows my mind how so many fellow neogaf members haven't got a clue how muscle growth and biology works.

Let's take this example to break this down.

Let's take a male 6 feet tall and a female 6 feet tall starting out at the same weight of 170 lbs.

Put them in to a training chamber.

Assume they both have the exactly same routine, nutrition, exact same dedication and motivation, no steroids allowed of any sort, no protein powder, only organic steak and chicken breast.

After 1 month, the male will have substantial muscle growth or at the very least much more muscle growth and physical brawn compared to the female due to testosterone.

The female, while tone, will be nowhere near as ripped. This doesn't even take in to account biological differences between the two sexes, which includes bone density. Decades of misinformation and acceptance of fake science have really have a detrimental effect on biological knowledge and understanding in this society and it is freaking sad.

We do need to be more inclusive, but this is the wrong freaking battlefield.

MTF trans will absolutely wreck the competition if they didn't undergo full blown hormonal therapy for at least a few years, and even then their inherited physical powers of their previous sex will still be more than enough to crush any average female.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't women also naturally have a higher fat percentage then males?

Like even if after that training they both weigh the same, won't the female still have less muscle mass?

 

[KillLaCam]

Yeah she'll still have higher testosterone and probably muscle than the other ppl competing. It's a fair block. People get blocked for less all of the time.

 

[Big Blue]

Not 158 pounds but 15 stones and 8 pounds which is about 218 pounds.

Sorry, I misread. That's massive for a woman.

 

[excelsiorlef]

He did the exact same thing the last trans thread he post in.

I'm shocked.

 

[TripleBee]

The way to make it fair is to have a weight limit. It would exclude her also - but if safety is the concern, list your max weight for participation.

If any woman is above that weight they can't play. I'd assume you'd also have a minimum weight and height requirements for safety.

 

[KingV]

I think the only fair way to do it is to have basically two leagues for most sports. One is open to anyone that wants to compete, regardless of gender and one is open only to genetically born XX women.

There might be an argument for some sort of hormone level restrictions as well, but I’m not sure what other way there is around it.

The only reason there are men’s and women’s leagues in sports now is that women just cant compete with men. So having some sort of backdoor loophole to grow up as a man and then play against women seems like a cheat in many sports.

 

[RoadHazard]

Didn't think we had to, I figured he would have been banned forever ago for that blatant transphobic bullshit

What am I missing, how is it transphobic? Perhaps not all of it is very delicately put, but he's not really wrong about anything. People who are biologically male are typically far superior to women physically. You can identify as a woman and change your gender identity, but that doesn't change the biological and physical facts.

I hadn't heard the Williams stuff before though, so I can't comment on the accuracy of that.

 

[flkraven]

The way to make it fair is to have a weight limit. It would exclude her also - but if safety is the concern, list your max weight for participation.

If any woman is above that weight they can't play. I'd assume you'd also have a minimum weight and height requirements for safety.

Having height/weight restrictions for anything other than combat sports is a terrible solution imo.

I think the only fair way to do it is to have basically two leagues for most sports. One is open to anyone that wants to compete, regardless of gender and one is open only to genetically born XX women.

There might be an argument for some sort of hormone level restrictions as well, but I'm not sure what other way there is around it.

The only reason there are men's and women's leagues in sports now is that women just cant compete with men. So having some sort of backdoor loophole to grow up as a man and then play against women seems like a cheat in many sports.

This is already the case. There is nothing stopping women from playing the NBA, NHL etc other than talent.

 

[Ketkat]

What am I missing, how is it transphobic? Perhaps not all of it is very delicately put, but he's not really wrong about anything. People who are biologically male are typically far superior to women physically. You can identify as a woman and change your gender, but that doesn't change the biological and physical facts.

I hadn't heard the Williams stuff before though, so I can't comment on the accuracy of that.

How is this not transphobic?

You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man..

 

[RollingCheese]

Correct me if I am wrong but don't women also naturally have a higher fat percentage then males?

Like even if after that training they both weigh the same, won't the female still have less muscle mass?

That is correct. I'm just painting this example to show just how big the gap between female and male is in terms of biology. Quite frankly, there is no competition. Without extreme supplements and taking many extreme medical procedures, it is not possible to make male = female in terms of physical ability. It just can't be done.

 

[cartographer]

What am I missing, how is it transphobic? Perhaps not all of it is very delicately put, but he's not really wrong about anything. People who are biologically male are typically far superior to women physically. You can identify as a woman and change your gender, but that doesn't change the biological and physical facts.

I hadn't heard the Williams stuff before though, so I can't comment on the accuracy of that.

How is this blatant rude misgendering not transphobic?

However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.

 

[Queen Vulpix]

Yeah she'll still have higher testosterone and probably muscle than the other ppl competing. It's a fair block. People get blocked for less all of the time.

Based off my understand of hormone therapy the entire point of it is to get hormone levels within the range of a cis woman (in Hannah's case) of which she'd have constant lab work to make sure it stays so, permanently so if she has surgery so how would she have "still have higher testosterone" then that of a cis women?

 

[Rabid Dwarf 76]

Because no one in their right mind that played sports in their life would think this is ok, since they'd know the monumental difference between a man and a woman. This isn't some advantage, she was born a man. With all the overwhelming physical advantages that men generally have over women and would curb-stomp these women because she was born a man rather than you know.. those other specific advantages that people get born with.

You can be what you want to be, I don't give a fuck. But she is still physically speaking a man regardless of what they want to be. If there wasn't some monumental difference physically between men and women, sports would include both genders to play with each other. However, no one wants to watch men completely destroy women, which is what would happen here regardless of whether someone feels they are a woman or a man.

Do people forget that a complete fucking scrub that smoked, drank and then dominated the fuck out of the Williams sisters in tennis in late 90s? He was ranked 203rd and fucking bodied them 6-1 and 6-2. Now imagine if Karsten Braasch the scrub that went even further down the list falling to 300s shortly after, was a transgender woman. We would have seen a physically born man playing and dominating the fuck out of the best tennis players of this century until she retired bored from owning everyone. All these moral social heroes on this topic would be for it and not watch the actual sport, and the tennis fans would rightfully tap out completely killing the female tennis sport for the next decade. There would be no Serena Williams, Venus Williams, Justine Henin, Seles etc because they'd all be women that got fucking dominated by the Braasch. All would be footnotes in tennis history. From the specific advantage of being born a man and playing against the sex that is far weaker in comparison. This is what some of you are trying to make it seem similar to all the genetic advantages, and it's somehow not a parody.

I'm not attacking anybody. I'm just calling it out how it is. People that played sports wouldn't write this nonsense about equality since they know it's the complete opposite of it in reality. It just looks like a bunch of people that are ignorant on the subject that are tripping over themselves trying to sound like fair and balanced citizens looking for imaginary social points.

Well said.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I think we need to accept that sometimes in a society there are problems with no right answers or solutions. At the end of the day you have to just go with whatever option is better, and in this case unfortunately its better for the trans-female with repressed testosterone to not compete in a physical sport with other cis-females.

 

[Ketkat]

Well said.

Fuck off with this bullshit already. Its not well said and its incredibly insulting to transwomen to pretend otherwise. I'm tired of the same people coming into every trans thread and constantly shitting on us and getting away with it

I think we need to accept that sometimes in a society there are problems with no right answers or solutions. At the end of the day you have to just go with whatever option is better, and in this case unfortunately its better for the trans-male with boosted male hormones to not compete in a physical sport with other cis-females.

There is no trans-male in this situation.

 

[SapientWolf]

Ah yes, insightful conversation like this?


The kind of post that had several people come out and say "Finally" and "This is so true" At least this poster wasn't trying to be subtle about it like some of you.



I'm a little confused on the terminlogy in the first one. "We present the data of Ghent gender team with 56 male-to-female (transwomen) of whom 36 have been in follow-up for 1 year of cross-sex hormonal therapy (CSH)." Mainly this part. Is this saying that 20 of them weren't transitioning?

As described in the methodology, the data in the abstract only includes the transwomen that have undergone the hormone therapy for a year. Without the full text, it's not clear why the other 20 were mentioned. It's possible that they dropped out before the study concluded, which isn't too out of the ordinary.

 

[Platy]

No one tried to give a proper rebuttal to this

because he is talking about cis men competing with women.

There were trans tennis players and the best one reached like 20th on the rank. Serena would wipe the floor with her

 

[RoadHazard]

How is this not transphobic?

How is it? Someone who was born male and changes gender identity is still biologically and physically male. And biological males are generally physically superior to biological females, regardless of the gender identities of the people in question. These are just facts.

Is it the "no one wants to watch men completely destroy women" part, as if he's calling her a man? You could interpret it that way, or maybe he just meant in general.

 

[hendersonhank]

Lots of people have genetic advantages. Why is it that we get to pick and choose which ones we'll allow? Oh that's right, this one makes people feel uncomfortable.

Do you think men and women should compete against each other, or do you think the differences between them are ones that we should "pick and choose" to separate?

 

[perfectchaos007]

Do you think men and women should compete against each other, or do you think the differences between them are ones that we should "pick and choose" to separate?

Well, the only time I heard the argument that women weren't playing in the NBA was due to sexism was here on NeoGAF. From that standpoint we should eliminate womens sports leagues and have them all compete with men/trans-men/trans-women/and women and have them compete for spots on the team. There's really only one gender that will benefit here...

 

[RollingCheese]

because he is talking about cis men competing with women.

There were trans tennis players and the best one reached like 20th on the rank. Serena would wipe the floor with her

Talk about apples and oranges. You don't need physical strength and physical domination to compete in tennis. You need stamina and endurance. Someone like Serena with years of experience and training would've already reached the peak of the human condition applicable to the sport of Tennis. At that point the only thing separating her from another man in tennis is their technique and experience.

Try your argument again for wrestling, and full contact football and see how far that argument will go. I guarantee you it won't be far.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

I've seen lot's of arguments that male puberty made her have greater bone density in this thread. That argument being, even if her test is low the higher bone density alone gives her an unfair advantage and that alone should disqualify her.

What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?

We're talking about athletes here so bone density is just one of the many biological advantages. It helps absorb impact and limit the potential for serious injury. Is the woman in question only competing against black women? If so, they might be able to take more punishing hits from her based on your data. Or is she going to be going up against almost exclusively white women over there in Australia, who practically fall off that chart?

Also, you're pointing out that black women's bone density can exceed that of white men. It looks like that data shows that happens at 45 which is about a decade past when most athletes retire let alone when they're in their prime.

 

[haimon]

Fuck off with this bullshit already. Its not well said and its incredibly insulting to transwomen to pretend otherwise. I'm tired of the same people coming into every trans thread and constantly shitting on us and getting away with it



There is no trans-male in this situation.

Biologically there is a difference between men and women. Biologically there is still a difference between a transgender and the sex they transitioned too.

I don't know the answer to this but of you Dana tested a transgender would they be distinguishable from a cisgender of their pre transition sex?

 

[Ketkat]

How is it? Someone who was born male and changes gender identity is still biologically and physically male. And biological males are generally physically superior to biological females, regardless of the gender identities of the people in question. These are just facts.

Is it the "no one wants to watch men completely destroy women" part, as if he's calling her a man? You could interpret it that way, or maybe he just meant in general.

He very clearly did not mean in general. He says "THATS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THIS SITUATION"

And how is a transwoman who transitions still physically male?

Biologically there is a difference between men and women. Biologically there is still a difference between a transgender and the sex they transitioned too.

I don't know the answer to this but of you Dana tested a transgender would they be distinguishable from a cisgender of their pre transition sex?

If you're asking if transitioning has an effect that makes them not be men anymore, then the answer is OBVIOUSLY yes.

 

[cartographer]

How is it? Someone who was born male and changes gender identity is still biologically and physically male. And biological males are generally physically superior to biological females, regardless of the gender identities of the people in question. These are just facts.

Is it the "no one wants to watch men completely destroy women" part, as if he's calling her a man? You could interpret it that way, or maybe he just meant in general.

The poster said it would be men destroying women, no matter whether they feel they are a man or a woman.

He is calling them men, no matter "how they feel." It's misgendering and belittiling. What you see as "not delicately put" is just flatout being an asshole about a marginalized group for no particular reason.

 

[Platy]

Talk about apples and oranges. You don't need physical brawn to compete in tennis. You need stamina and endurance. Someone like Serena with years of experience and training would've already reached the peak of the human condition applicable to the sport of Tennis. At that point the only thing separating her from another man in tennis is their technique and experience.

Try your argument again for wrestling, and full contact football and see how far that argument will go. I guarantee you it won't be far.

I was talking to the long post everyone is clapping that is mentioning TENNIS and Serena being wiped by a low rank male player.

There was a trans MMA fighter ... she lost to a 2-3 card fighter

 

[haimon]

He very clearly did not mean in general. He says "THATS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN THIS SITUATION"

And how is a transwoman who transitions still physically male?



If you're asking if transitioning has an effect that makes them not be men anymore, then the answer is OBVIOUSLY yes.

At the DNA level?

 

[perfectchaos007]

Talk about apples and oranges. You don't need physical strength and physical domination to compete in tennis. You need stamina and endurance. Someone like Serena with years of experience and training would've already reached the peak of the human condition applicable to the sport of Tennis. At that point the only thing separating her from another man in tennis is their technique and experience.

Try your argument again for wrestling, and full contact football and see how far that argument will go. I guarantee you it won't be far.

As someone who has played tennis competitively for almost 20 years, you have it backwards.

 

[Ketkat]

At the DNA level?

How does DNA matter in this situation? You are aware that there are people who develop as male, not trans people, but have XX chromosomes right? You also asked if someone, like a transwoman, who transitions would be distinguishable from men. That has nothing to do with DNA and the answer was yes.

 

[Your Entertainer]

I've seen lot's of arguments that male puberty made her have greater bone density in this thread. That argument being, even if her test is low the higher bone density alone gives her an unfair advantage and that alone should disqualify her.

What do you make of Black women's bone density being comparable or sometimes even greater than Caucasian White men's bone density?

Literally face palmed at this post

 

[Platy]

At the DNA level?

Are you talking about sports, doctors, forensic evidences, bathrooms or whatever she gives you the hots makes you gay ?

Because dna means NOTHING to sports. It is just the blueprints, how the body works is the important part

 

[Rabid Dwarf 76]

Fuck off with this bullshit already. Its not well said and its incredibly insulting to transwomen to pretend otherwise. I'm tired of the same people coming into every trans thread and constantly shitting on us and getting away with it

I believe it was well said. You disagree and think it's insulting. We have differing opinions.

 

[Big Blue]

I was talking to the long post everyone is clapping that is mentioning TENNIS and Serena being wiped by a low rank male player.

There was a trans MMA fighter ... she lost to a 2-3 card fighter

Just because she lost, doesn't mean that she didn't have a physical advantage.

 

[blackflag]

Bingo.
A sex she lived and grew as for 26 years

And that's why we need to move to XX XY leagues instead of Men and Women leagues.

 

[Stoop Man]

Does anyone here actually know the effects of HRT? I'm seeing a lot of discussion about testosterone, puberty, and bone density, but no actual data about trans athletes.

 

[Ketkat]

I believe it was well said. You disagree and think it's insulting. We have differing opinions.

Well, let's see. The people who come into every thread insulting trans people found it well said, and the people who are trans or don't insult trans people in every thread found it insulting. I wonder which group might have a better sense of what kind of fucking assholes you guys are being.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

The transphobia in here is so blatant it hurts. It’s not even attempting to be subtle.

 

[Westbahnhof]

And that's why we need to move to XX XY leagues instead of Men and Women leagues.

It seems like a good concept at first glance maybe, but then there's stuff like XYY men.
Also, more importantly, you'd make transwomen compete with men, which is basically akin to just banning transwomen.

 

[Ketkat]

The transphobia in here is so blatant it hurts. It’s not even attempting to be subtle.

And they'll never be punished for it. For some reason, its allowed on this forum despite wanting to look progressive

 

[flkraven]

because he is talking about cis men competing with women.

There were trans tennis players and the best one reached like 20th on the rank. Serena would wipe the floor with her

To be fair, it was 1 trans tennis player, and she was never ranked as a male but made it to 20th in the female rankings. Not a great example.

 

[Alchemy]

Oh look its one of those threads where idiot cis men think they know how HRT works and dig out their biology degrees.

 

[Platy]

Just because she lost, doesn't mean that she didn't have a physical advantage.

To be fair, it was 1 trans tennis player, and she was never ranked as a male but made it to 20th in the female rankings. Not a great example.

So it is a huge physical advantage that would make women feel obsolete except when it doesn't ?

Phelps body gives a bigger advantage =P

 

[perfectchaos007]

And that's why we need to move to XX XY leagues instead of Men and Women leagues.

No because if you have XX chromosomes but go through male hormone therapy to become a trans-male, you'll have a huge advantage over the cis-XX women

 

[NeonBlack]

Has either side of this argument explained what HRT changes and if it correlates to the points being made?

I'm seeing a lot of arguing but have only seen one chart.....for bones.

 

[RollingCheese]

Oh look its one of those threads where idiot cis men think they know how HRT works and dig out their biology degrees.

Come down from your ivory tower and tell us HRT works then. While you're at it, please tell us how the biology of a MTF trans doesn't give them inherent advantage over females.

By females I mean females in the whole division of any sport, not just the top tier females.

Thanks.

 

[Rabid Dwarf 76]

Well, let's see. The people who come into every thread insulting trans people found it well said, and the people who are trans or don't insult trans people in every thread found it insulting. I wonder which group might have a better sense of what kind of fucking assholes you guys are being.

Please point to where I was making insults?

 

[Ketkat]

Please point to where I was making insults?

You're insulting us by saying that someone saying some terrible transphobic things was well said. As in, you agreed with it and thought it was great.

 

[haimon]

How does DNA matter in this situation? You are aware that there are people who develop as male, not trans people, but have XX chromosomes right? You also asked if someone, like a transwoman, who transitions would be distinguishable from men. That has nothing to do with DNA and the answer was yes.

Biologically men are different than women. For most cases a transgendered after transition is fully a woman. However in very specific areas nuance is required.

In this case you have her who competed as a man a year before. That required nuance. Not black and white holier than thou judgement.

A cis female pro athelete will almost never be the physical equal of a cis male athelete in the same aport. Skillwise is a different story.

However given that sex differences exist transitioning from one sex to another leaves some differences between a cis and a transgender.

In almost any field there should be no separation between cis and trans. Sports however are a specific area that there is cause for looking at it in a different way.

 

[blackflag]

No because if you have XX chromosomes but go through male hormone therapy to become a trans-male, you'll have a huge advantage over the cis-XX women

Ehhhh I didn't think this through enough. I tried. It's a difficult situation.

 

[Your Entertainer]

Oh look its one of those threads where idiot cis men think they know how HRT works and dig out their biology degrees.

What's your background?

Want to explain it to us? Also tying it back to a situation like the one in the OP?