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[besada]

All sides better get a grip. That means no more misgendering and no more telling people to fuck off.

I've got stuff to do, but I'll be back later to check in.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

All sides better get a grip. That means no more misgendering and no more telling people to fuck off.

I've got stuff to do, but I'll be back later to check in.

To be fair, KetKat’s ban is uncalled for, I believe. It’s not fair when they were simply defending themselves against bigotry levied against them and similar posters.

 

[Gaogaogao]

No because if you have XX chromosomes but go through male hormone therapy to become a trans-male, you'll have a huge advantage over the cis-XX women

the opposite is also true. and thus, drawing a line is futile.
rather than choosing to exclude people, just let them play.

Hannah is within whatever physical parameters constitute a 'woman'. Women have been bigger or stronger or faster than Hannah. That much I know.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Ehhhh I didn't think this through enough. I tried. It's a difficult situation.

It really is. I'd like to see a study comparing trans athletes to cis athletes of their own gender.
I want to know how a transwoman fares against a ciswoman, after x years of hormones, and so on.

If there is a notable advantage, I could see how allowing participation could be problematic. At the same time, I'd love to just find a way to include everyone.

I'm glad it's not on me to decide, anyway.

 

[Lowmelody]

To be fair, KetKat’s ban is uncalled for, I believe. It’s not fair when they were simply defending themselves against bigotry levied against them and similar posters.

Wow @ that ban.

 

[blackflag]

It really is. I'd like to see a study comparing trans athletes to cis athletes of their own gender.
I want to know how a transwoman fares against a ciswoman, after x years of hormones, and so on.

If there is a notable advantage, I could see how allowing participation could be problematic. At the same time, I'd love to just find a way to include everyone.

I'm glad it's not on me to decide, anyway.

Yes, agreed on all of that.

 

[charlequin]

Does anyone here actually know the effects of HRT? I'm seeing a lot of discussion about testosterone, puberty, and bone density, but no actual data about trans athletes.

An excellent question! While there's no 100% conclusive answer, the literature in general suggests that trans women who are well into an ongoing HRT treatment have no inherent benefit when competing against cis women.

As a fairly representative example, the IOC has recently decided that trans women can compete in female categories as long as they submit to hormone-level verification and have been on HRT for a year, a policy whose details could certainly be debated but which is pretty firmly on the side of "trans women can in some cases compete fairly."

 

[Jenov]

They do change:



http://press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/endo-meetings.2013.RE.12.MON-591

It's not really enough to close the gap:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17186303

On average, an untrained transgender woman would still be stronger than an elite level female athlete even with a 7% drop in strength after a year of hormone therapy.

Now this is interesting data. Probably not enough to make sweeping sport rules on, but it's a start. There needs to be more research overall, and in the meantime the case by case ruling seems fair here.

 

[flkraven]

So it is a huge physical advantage that would make women feel obsolete except when it doesn't ?

Phelps body gives a bigger advantage =P

No, I was just saying she wasn't even good enough to be ranked when playing in the men's league. After transitioning, she got all the way up to 20th in the women's league. I didn't move the goalposts, I was just saying how you infact proved the same point. Being born with the physiology of a man, she did far better against women than against men.

 

[billy beane]

Couldn’t she play in the men’s league? And if you’re her do you want to? You can go out and show women can do anything men can.

Very touchy subject. As someone who supports transgendered rights, I am against the decision, but as someone who watches a lot of sports I understand the reason. Especially in a contact sport.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

To be fair, KetKat’s ban is uncalled for, I believe. It’s not fair when they were simply defending themselves against bigotry levied against them and similar posters.

Wow @ that ban.

I was recently banned for a similar infraction (getting pretty heated and telling a racist to fuck off). I definitely deserved it and I could have rebutted that racist with less colorful language.

I'm sure it's just for a few days and was only to let KetKat cool off.

 

[Ganhyun]

What I get from this based on SapientWolf's post and charlequin's posts are that we need more research on the HRT. It seems a year isnt enough time for this to allow fair competition based on Sapient's data, but, perhaps over more time it is fair based on charlequin's data.

edit:

It might have to do with what time they transition (pre-puberty vs post-puberty). Data on that would help a lot.

That's a good point too.

 

[Jenov]

What I get from this based on SapientWolf's post and charlequin's posts are that we need more research on the HRT. It seems a year isnt enough time for this to allow fair competition based on Sapient's data, but, perhaps over more time it is fair based on charlequin's data.

It might have to do with what time they transition (pre-puberty vs post-puberty). Data on that would help a lot.

 

[Big Blue]

So it is a huge physical advantage that would make women feel obsolete except when it doesn't ?

Phelps body gives a bigger advantage =P

It's not point of whether she would dominate. It's about the fact that she has a genetic, physiological advantage over cisgendered women. It hurts the integrity of why the league was created in the first place.

 

[Draxal]

Couldn’t she play in the men’s league? And if you’re her do you want to? You can go out and show women can do anything men can.

Very touchy subject. As someone who supports transgendered rights, I am against the decision, but as someone who watches a lot of sports I understand the reason. Especially in a contact sport.

Pretty much all male sports allow women to participate in them.

 

[charlequin]

What I get from this based on SapientWolf's post and charlequin's posts are that we need more research on the HRT. It seems a year isnt enough time for this to allow fair competition based on Sapient's data, but, perhaps over more time it is fair based on charlequin's data.

At very least, long-term data collected in general (i.e. not specifically with athletics in mind) suggests that other than height, trans women as a class are statistically similar to cis women in a variety of areas of measure, so it's pretty unlikely that a policy of complete exclusion makes sense.

It's not point of whether she would dominate. It's about the fact that she has a genetic, physiological advantage over cisgendered women. It hurts the integrity of why the league was created in the first place.

There's no such thing as a "genetic" advantage. People's genotypes can be all kinds of things that aren't reflected in their phenotypes. We've had actions by sporting bodies in the past that would label people with intersex conditions that resulted in an XY genome but typical female body development as men, for example, and that's proven to be foolish and hasty.

Also: in a certain sense, trans women are at a disadvantage on average against top cis athletes as their hormone levels will generally be controlled medically and monitored for participation to stay in a "standard" range, while some cis women will benefit from having naturally higher T levels than average.

 

[Platy]

To be fair, KetKat’s ban is uncalled for, I believe. It’s not fair when they were simply defending themselves against bigotry levied against them and similar posters.

My only ban had a message like "i understand why you are angry, but that word was a no no"

 

[KillLaCam]

Based off my understand of hormone therapy the entire point of it is to get hormone levels within the range of a cis woman (in Hannah's case) of which she'd have constant lab work to make sure it stays so, permanently so if she has surgery so how would she have "still have higher testosterone" then that of a cis women?

Obviously if you get the hormone levels within the range of a cis woman then you wouldn't have higher testosterone levels than them.

They cleared her for future drafts though. It seems like they just didn't know how to handle the situation right now. Especially with the bad timing of when they told her she couldn't be in this year's draft

 

[TaterTots]

It was the right choice, but there really aren't answers for the situation. I'm not a space doctor so I'm not even going to attempt to talk about hormone balances and such.

 

[killdatninja]

What I get from this based on SapientWolf's post and charlequin's posts are that we need more research on the HRT. It seems a year isnt enough time for this to allow fair competition based on Sapient's data, but, perhaps over more time it is fair based on charlequin's data.

Agreed, clearly there's not enough data done on this.

I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but visually her physique still resembles a male athlete. Let's pretend she was born biologically as a female and ended up with the same exact physique she has now. I would have no doubt in my mind that at some point someone would have suggested for her to try out in the men's league at some point.

 

[MotionBlue]

Agreed, clearly there's not enough data done on this.

This is pretty much what most Transgender issues come down to. An incredibly small percentage of the population, makes long term studies hard. People are afraid of mimicking the past, and a lot of ready, fire, aim decisions are being made.

 

[Trojita]

An excellent question! While there's no 100% conclusive answer, the literature in general suggests that trans women who are well into an ongoing HRT treatment have no inherent benefit when competing against cis women.

As a fairly representative example, the IOC has recently decided that trans women can compete in female categories as long as they submit to hormone-level verification and have been on HRT for a year, a policy whose details could certainly be debated but which is pretty firmly on the side of "trans women can in some cases compete fairly."

I'm not sure if I'd say it suggests there is no benefit. Overall the study isn't a "scientific study", but a review of articles on the subject.

Thirty-one research articles were considered potentially relevant to the remit of this review. The search also identified 31 competitive sport policies for transgender people

Only a few (I think it is two) of the articles they reviewed were quantitative.

The majority of the studies within this body of literature are qualitative in nature, which may be at least partly a reflection of the low numbers of transgender people in the general population. It is therefore difficult to draw any definite conclusions because of the lack of quantitative research. By its very nature, the findings from qualitative research cannot be generalised but the findings can be used to form a platform from which generalisations can be made.

Therefore, Gooren and Bunck concluded that transgender male individuals are likely to be able to compete without an athletic advantage 1-year post-cross-sex hormone treatment. To a certain extent this also applies to transgender female individuals; however, there still remains a level of uncertainty owing to a large muscle mass 1-year post-cross-sex hormones. While this study was the first to explore, experimentally, whether transgender people can compete fairly, the sample size was relatively small (n = 36). Additionally, they did not explore the role of testosterone blockers and did not directly measure the effect cross-sex hormones had on athletic performance (e.g. running time). Many, but not all, transgender female individuals are prescribed testosterone blockers to help them to reach cisgender female testosterone levels, when administration of oestrogen alone is not enough to reduce testosterone levels. This is particularly important if the person aims to undergo gender-confirming surgery, as 6 months of testosterone suppression is a requirement for such procedures. However, if a transgender woman does not wish to undergo surgery or does not wish to have their testosterone blocked to cisgender female levels (e.g. as they wish to use their penis), their testosterone levels will be above cisgender female levels. Differentiating not only between those taking cross-sex hormones and not taking cross-sex hormones, but also transgender female individuals taking testosterone blockers, may be necessary when discussing an athletic advantage.

Another part goes into the Harper study on the influence of androgenic hormones on athletic ability

To date, Harper's study is the only one to directly explore androgenic hormones and athletic ability. The aim of the study was to explore the long-distance (5–42 km) running times of eight transgender female individuals pre- and post-testosterone suppression. It was found that post-testosterone suppression running times were significantly slower in comparison to pre-testosterone suppression. Harper stated that owing to reductions in testosterone and haemoglobin, transgender female individuals post-transition would have the same endurance capabilities as a cisgender female individual. However, the sample size was very small (n = 8) and participants were asked to self-report their race times, which might have been subject to recall or social desirability bias.

Harper's assertion is a hypothesis based on a small sample size.

A lot of the article is dealing with barriers of entry to physical activity for transgender people.

 

[boiled goose]

Talk about apples and oranges. You don't need physical strength and physical domination to compete in tennis. You need stamina and endurance. Someone like Serena with years of experience and training would've already reached the peak of the human condition applicable to the sport of Tennis. At that point the only thing separating her from another man in tennis is their technique and experience.

Try your argument again for wrestling, and full contact football and see how far that argument will go. I guarantee you it won't be far.

This is actually not true at all. Tennis has a clear gap. Ranked college and professional level females frequently train with high school males (and lose).

Interestingly serving speeds are not that different (drag, techniques very important) and in endurance women match up better (long distance swimming for example), but still lots of stength and explosiveness needed in competitive tennis.

 

[cartographer]

Agreed, clearly there's not enough data done on this.

I don't mean to disrespect anyone, but visually her physique still resembles a male athlete. Let's pretend she was born biologically as a female and ended up with the same exact physique she has now. I would have no doubt in my mind that at some point someone would have suggested for her to try out in the men's league at some point.

Valerie Adams, shotput

Ele Opeloge, weightlifting

Courtney Paris, basketball

Come on.

 

[Queen Vulpix]

Obviously if you get the hormone levels within the range of a cis woman then you wouldn't have higher testosterone levels than them.

They cleared her for future drafts though. It seems like they just didn't know how to handle the situation right now. Especially with the bad timing of when they told her she couldn't be in this year's draft

My apologies as I had assumed you had known she was undergoing hormone therapy and as a result her levels would be in the cis woman range. The BBC article in the OP unfortunately doesn't mention that important detail as I didn't know initially as well. It was this link
cartographer posted awhile back that made mention of it.

I do agree with the unfortunate timing though.

 

[Harrison Bergeron]

It's a really complicated problem. She has significant physical advantages for a sport like Aussie rules, and she acquired them while biologically male. There is certainly no one else even close to the physical advantages she has right now in the female competition.

I want trans people to have a space to compete in elite professional sports, but I think on the matter of trans-females against cis-females it has to be a data-driven and case by case decision at this point.

Female sports are already a distinct competition space specifically existing to provide fair competition away from the massive advantages male biology provides in terms of physical ability in nearly every sport.

 

[KingV]

because he is talking about cis men competing with women.

There were trans tennis players and the best one reached like 20th on the rank. Serena would wipe the floor with her

Serena would wipe the floor with me and I’m a man. Heck my 60 year old mother would wipe the floor with me in tennis. All because I’m not good at tennis.

What is relevant is how good was that 20th ranked tennis player as a man compared to how they were after transition.

If the answer is “Oh they were top 50” it would lead you to think the advantage is not too bad. If it’s “they made it to states once in high school” it would make you think the advantage is tremendous.

Edit: looked it up. She did not play professionally prior to transition and had this to say after the fact.

Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying “Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion.

It seems she seems to think that being born a man provided her advantages.

Edit2: she was a top 20 player while in her forties....

 

[boiled goose]

I think an important framing issue is that women aren't "interior" at "sports". It depends on the sport!

Pretty confident women would do better at balance beam and perhaps other sports designed to test dexterity and balance and flexibility.

The sports that exist now were largely designed by males for males.

 

[Seesaw15]

To be fair, KetKat’s ban is uncalled for, I believe. It’s not fair when they were simply defending themselves against bigotry levied against them and similar posters.

Wow @ that ban.

I'm pretty sure back seat moderation is against TOS. Send a PM if you think the ban was unjust.

A. Moderation of NeoGAF is not by democracy. All decisions with regards to thread closure and movement, permanent and temporary bans, membership, and any other relevant issues are made by the NeoGAF administration alone and are final. That being said, constructive criticisms and suggestions are welcome, provided they are directed to NeoGAF Administration via e-mail, here. Do not dispute administrative policy or action within the forum itself.

 

[Rayis]

You guys are aware that being on HRT for a period of time makes transwomen lose muscle mass and gain more fat comparable to that of cis women? In this particular case it didn't seem like she was at that level yet but every trans athlete's case should be studied on an individual basis.

 

[Harrison Bergeron]

Talk about apples and oranges. You don't need physical strength and physical domination to compete in tennis. You need stamina and endurance. Someone like Serena with years of experience and training would've already reached the peak of the human condition applicable to the sport of Tennis. At that point the only thing separating her from another man in tennis is their technique and experience.

Try your argument again for wrestling, and full contact football and see how far that argument will go. I guarantee you it won't be far.

This isn't really true either. The most important factor is still generally to be a man, and have the massive gulf in physical advantage that entails.

Another event dubbed a "Battle of the Sexes" took place during the 1998 Australian Open[51] between Karsten Braasch and the Williams sisters. Venus and Serena Williams had claimed that they could beat any male player ranked outside the world's top 200, so Braasch, then ranked 203rd, challenged them both. Braasch was described by one journalist as "a man whose training regime centered around a pack of cigarettes and more than a couple bottles of ice cold lager".[52][51] The matches took place on court number 12 in Melbourne Park,[53] after Braasch had finished a round of golf and two beers. He first took on Serena and after leading 5–0, beat her 6–1. Venus then walked on court and again Braasch was victorious, this time winning 6–2.[54] Braasch said afterwards, "500 and above, no chance". He added that he had played like someone ranked 600th in order to keep the game "fun".[55] Braasch said the big difference was that men can chase down shots much easier, and that men put spin on the ball that the women can't handle. The Williams sisters adjusted their claim to beating men outside the top 350.[51]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sexes_(tennis)

 

[charlequin]

I'm not sure if I'd say it suggests there is no benefit.

The excerpting is appreciated, but I don't think any of it particularly disagrees with my statement, taking the words "suggests" and "inherent" advisedly. There's no noted evidence against the proposition and a small, insufficiently significant portion in favor.

 

[Gaogaogao]

Valerie Adams, shotput


Ele Opeloge, weightlifting


Courtney Paris, basketball


Come on.

.

 

[Big Blue]

The excerpting is appreciated, but I don't think any of it particularly disagrees with my statement, taking the words "suggests" and "inherent" advisedly. There's no noted evidence against the proposition and a small, insufficiently significant portion in favor.

True, but because of the ambiguity, it puts the integrity of athletics in jeopardy. It's a decision that I'm glad I don't have to make.

 

[Trojita]

The excerpting is appreciated, but I don't think any of it particularly disagrees with my statement, taking the words "suggests" and "inherent" advisedly. There's no noted evidence against the proposition and a small, insufficiently significant portion in favor.

Yeah. It just comes down to lack of evidence in general, especially with the small pool of transgender people in general and the lower number of them actively in sports (especially professional), and the lack of people wanting to do a study on this. I just wanted to point out that when people see a study from the Library of Medicine suggests something, people would expect most of the findings to be based on scientific quantitative study, which there is a general lack of. Which is why the meat and potatoes of the study needs to be put out there. We already know a lot of people don't read OP Articles lol.

 

[Gaogaogao]

True, but because of the ambiguity, it puts the integrity of athletics in jeopardy. It's a decision that I'm glad I don't have to make.

because athletics ever had integrity pfft

 

[Big Blue]

because athletics ever had integrity pfft

So then why separate male and female athletics???

 

[Gaogaogao]

So then why separate male and female athletics???

sexism is a poor excuse for integrity

 

[flkraven]

sexism is a poor excuse for integrity

lol what are you even talking about? There are women's only leagues for the benefit of women. If those leagues didn't exist, then women wouldn't be playing the sports.

 

[Gaogaogao]

lol what are you even talking about? There are women's only leagues for the benefit of women. If those leagues didn't exist, then women wouldn't be playing the sports.

scroll up
higher

 

[flkraven]

scroll up

I did. And you responded to the division of men's vs women's leagues as sexism.

 

[redfox088]

I only see a problem if she can’t play AFL either. That would be SOME conversation.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I only see a problem if she can't play AFL either. That would be SOME conversation.

Well, yeah. Because in the AFL her hormone therapy would give her a disadvantage against men producing a normal level of testosterone. So that shouldn't be a problem at all.

Somewhat similarly, its the same reason the ITF didn't strip Michael Phelps of his medals when the bong photos surfaced. Smoking weed doesn't give you a competitive advantage...if anything it takes advantages away.

 

[killdatninja]

Valerie Adams, shotput

Ele Opeloge, weightlifting

Courtney Paris, basketball

Come on.

I'm completely lost at whatever point you're trying to make. It's like you cherry picked 5 words from my post and tried to prove something that's not even remotely the point. My point was that (using one of your examples) Courtney would have been asked at some point to try out for the Men's team because of her physique. Nothing more nothing less, obviously there are a lot politics involved when someone who (fairly recently) transgendered, which league that person should play and why.

 

[Gaogaogao]

I'm completely lost at whatever point you're trying to make. It's like you cherry picked 5 words from my post and tried to prove something that's not even remotely the point. My point was that (using one of your examples) Courtney would have been asked at some point to try out for the Men's team because of her physique. Nothing more nothing less, obviously there are a lot politics involved when someone who (fairly recently) transgendered, which league that person should play and why.

the women you quoted are women. no ifs ands or buts.

 

[cartographer]

I'm completely lost at whatever point you're trying to make. It's like you cherry picked 5 words from my post and tried to prove something that's not even remotely the point. My point was that (using one of your examples) Courtney would have been asked at some point to try out for the Men's team because of her physique. Nothing more nothing less, obviously there are a lot politics involved when someone who (fairly recently) transgendered, which league that person should play and why.

It was the part where you said her physique resembles a male physique. That is a viewpoint rooted in a conformist view on body image and specifically women's bodies (a viewpoint that heavily favors the bodies of white women, too),

Saying her physique resembles a male physique is ignoring that the only reason that pops into your mind is because we emphasize a different silhouette for women than one I showed. It's othered and called out as abnormal for this reason, not because that body type is inherently male.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Part of me wants to say all sports should be integrated at all levels, so that any person of any gender (and no matter what gender they were born) can try out to make whatever team. If you can compete, you’re on the team.

The other part of me realizes this would end female participation in sports because men (trans and cis) would generally dominate.

Unless it’s a sport like shooting or something.

Tough call for the AFLW. Extra shitty that they didn’t tell her until just before the draft.

 

[CebollaDeAbbott]

http://www.theroar.com.au/2017/10/19/womens-sport-weekly-wrap-hannah-mounceys-ineligibility-aflw-draft/

What Mouncey's situation demonstrates so clearly to me is that the AFL needs to think carefully about its own guidelines. In line with AFL Victoria Guidelines, because Mouncey has been through the gender reassignment process, she should be considered to be the gender set out on the Victorian state documentation. This is consistent with the IOCs approach to the issue as well.

If the AFL doesn't want to adhere to these guidelines, then why have them in place?

Are the IOC Guidelines more appropriate for non-contact sports and, if so, why did the AFL not think critically about its policy?

Interesting article worth reading.

I think it's important to note that Hannah has not been outright banned from the AFLW. She is welcome to nominate herself for future AFLW drafts, and frankly I really hope she does so we can continue to address this question.

I also believe no one has mentioned Hannah has previously played in the Canberra competition. Reports indicate she played decently, but didn't tear the division apart as some are believing.

So there is clear evidence that Hannah would not dominate the AFLW due to dominant genetics as some are speculating.

Furthermore, she has met every guideline the AFL claims to adhere to in order to play in the competition.

Very disappointing considering the timing of the announcement, as well as AFL's recent stances regarding diversity within its leagues.

 

[mfalcao2k1]

Everybody is focusing on her power and strength, but there is other things that give Hannah an unfair advantage such as sprinting, and short sprints such as for getting rid of a marker and this kind of stuff. People that think that she should be allowed to play in a professional women's league are more interested in political views, and not about the sport.
If this goes ahead, then in a few year all women's records will be set by transgender men. And this will be a killer blow to women's sports.

 

[appaws]

Anyone ever noticed that the gap between boys and girls in youth sports seems to open up well before the onset of puberty for most kids....?

I used to coach youth hockey, and up until age 8 there were no sex restrictions of any kind. It was completely co-ed. And I have to say that around ages 5-6 there really was no physical difference between boys and girls...

But something happens around the ages of maybe 8-9 and suddenly the boys shoot ahead and a big gap opens up. The best girls, who sometimes dominated just a year ago were suddenly completely unable to compete against any but the most mediocre boys.

At this point a lot of them would start to lose interest, and it just wouldn't be fun anymore, so the transition into sex-segregated leagues and teams comes in...and this is several years before puberty.

So I would wonder that even if a transition were made nearer to puberty or early in adulthood, including all the relevant hormonal treatments, etc., would there still be a large sex-related gap in athletic abilities between some biologically standard people and a transgender male of female competing in the opposite sex of what they were born...?

(Sorry about the clumsy language. Trying to be clear what I mean without insulting anyone.)