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[TSM]

Images never existed in RGB at any point when the NES was generating them. They were output as an NTSC signal and the colors you got depended entirely on each TVs particular analog NTSC decoder. As such there can never be a universally agreed upon "correct" palette as every outcome is just someone's approximation of what it should have looked like based on whatever methodology they employ to come to that conclusion.

Anyone that has ever tried calibrating older TVs knows that it's the wild wild west in terms of what you can expect. Manufacturers often played with their color decoders trying to make their TVs stand out in the stores and employed lots of nasty tricks that make for terrible images.

 

[Mega]

To be clear, they are claiming the original NT is correct ("OG Nt'), which I assume would be the same as a hi-def modified AV Famicom.

FWIW, the 2nd and 3rd video examples you gave are both using BEWARE palette. It's not clear what's being used for the 1st and 4th one.

FCEUX and Beware look pretty similar (both bad), so that's little consolation

Maybe a lot of color discrepancies simply come down to the NES using a YIQ/NTSC (sometimes derided as Never Twice the Same Color by professionals) color space and that a lot of colors simply can't be translated 1:1 into RGB/rec.709. Many colors from the former may be out of spec with the latter.

But then why does the NESRGB mod using the same FCEUX palette have the bright blue skies? Ditto for FCEUX-based emulators on Android. Check the prior page for my pics.

Are there any known color problems with HDMI to RGB conversions? I'm going to try the Hi-Def on my CRT.

 

[beelulzebub]

But then why does the NESRGB mod using the same FCEUX palette have the bright blue skies? Ditto for FCEUX-based emulators on Android. Check the prior page for my pics.

Are there any known color problems with HDMI to RGB conversions? I'm going to try the Hi-Def on my CRT.

HDMI can output RGB, so there's no need for a conversion.

TSM just above you explains pretty well why the NES generating its video in NTSC is problematic. Every NTSC television varies more widely than modern panels. While you can convert NTSC colors to RGB in a consistent, as accurate as possible fashion, it's not going to be perfect. They're completely different color sciences. Really, NTSC might as well be color suggestions instead of a color science. That Nestopia, higan, and the Hi-Def mod are all on the same page tells me they're using similar conversions, and likely the ones that are actually truest to the NTSC color being generated.

The NESRGB also has a different set of palettes: natural, garish, and improved. I don't have one but based on the description, natural should match the Hi-Def NES FCEUX palette while improved should match what you're seeing in the FCEUX emulator (which definitely gave me those bright blue skies on my PC). I'm going to hazard a guess and say that the palette and emulator, despite sharing the same name, may not yield the same results. Do you know which palette the NESRGB is using in your examples?

EDIT:

This says Natural matches the Nintendulator emulator while Improved matches the FCEUX emulator. Based on the NESRGB examples provided and how the FCEUX emulator appeared on my set up, I bet this is the palette that was used.

 

[Mega]

My NESRGB shots are using Improved, which is the FCEUX palette.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/

Three palettes available, I call them Natural, Improved, and Garish. The Natural palette has the same colours as the normal composite video output. It comes from the Nintendulator NES emulator. Improved is from the FCEUX emulator. There is more variety in the colours. Some games look significantly better with this one. Garish is also from the Nintendulator but it is a palette from the Nintendo Playchoice PPU. It's very colourful indeed.

I just tried FCEUX and BNES cores in RetroArch. Blue skies in SMB.

 

[beelulzebub]

My NESRGB shots are using Improved, which is the FCEUX palette.

http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/



I just tried FCEUX and BNES cores in RetroArch. Blue skies in SMB.

With Kevtris in charge of the mini, I imagine it will look similar to how it looks on the regular NT and the Hi-Def mod. But I'm no longer convinced it's actually incorrect. At some point these palettes simply come down to personal preference. I bet a new palette could be added to the NT and the mini (if it looks the same) via a firmware update if enough people request it though.

 

[cacophony555]

Analogue has already said they are working on additional palettes for the NT mini (eg. https://twitter.com/analogue_co/status/771065241207644160).

There are also two interesting suggestions here: https://t.co/1nZFwQN4Pa

• Ability to load a user customized palette via sd card
• Ability to configure a custom palette via the Nt mini overlay menu

Vote for your favorite ideas or add your own!

 

[TheWraith]

I completed level 1 (and died many times along the way), and can confirm I got to level 2 with no issue.

Do you have an Analogue NT and an Everdrive Famicom N8? I can speak from experience that these two don't always get along.

No, I use the original famicom cart. Must be just my cart then!

 

[Khaz]

If anything, the original Composite output has the correct colours. How does it compare to it?

 

[adversarial]

$449? Holy shit.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

If anything, the original Composite output has the correct colours. How does it compare to it?

It's sort of impossible to really match perfectly... NTSC = never twice the same color, composite just adding an extra wrinkle to that.

Anecdotally, composite colors are pretty close to the NESRGB "natural" which comes from Nintendulator. This is my preference... the "improved" FCEUX colors are just too vibrant and don't look right in a lot of games.

The question of what is the "correct" palette is just not a possible thing to answer for this system, which is why having it as a decent set of option is very important.

 

[Kawika]

I'm not on Twitter I think.

But reminder that this is all through a Hi-Def modded AV Famicom, not the unreleased NT Mini using the upgraded Hi-Def mod using a different FPGA. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison and if he says the NT Mini is fine, I'll take his word for it. The only reason we're talking about it here is because I mentioned the Hi-Def doesn't have the Mini's 5X scaling (scanlines suck at 4X and supposedly 5X helps)... someone asked me to post direct captures of the lines and as a tangent I mentioned hating the color palettes.

Re: the Hi-Def mod, it looks identically purple both directly connected to my plasma and fed into my IPS monitor via my capture card. I'm pretty sure it will be the same if I try a few more display options. Everything else NES related I have tried with the above methods (vWii, Retroarch) looks good. The problem pops up in others' videos.

MLiG
https://youtu.be/TI60A3DpI6w?t=9m44s

Random youtuber
https://youtu.be/Y1ApN1yGOVU?t=2m36s

Another
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEqF72vkiM

Horrible offscreen video but same purple color
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2blS5EAJ-cY

FCEUX is the palette I like the most. I feel its pretty good for most games but if it bothers you, the hue is the only adjustment necessary to bring it back to a blue color. I feel if I connected it to my PC monitor it would look accurate because of the full spectrum color it accepts. It probably has more to do with capturing and the way our TVs interpret that information than the palette that was programmed.

I think if people linked Kevtris the palette profile Tim Worthington and Firebrand X are working on he might dial in his firmware (if enough people bug him about it).

 

[Khaz]

It's sort of impossible to really match perfectly... NTSC = never twice the same color, composite just adding an extra wrinkle to that.

Anecdotally, composite colors are pretty close to the NESRGB "natural" which comes from Nintendulator. This is my preference... the "improved" FCEUX colors are just too vibrant and don't look right in a lot of games.

The question of what is the "correct" palette is just not a possible thing to answer for this system, which is why having it as a decent set of option is very important.

Maybe, but at least you should be able to say whether the sky in Super Mario is more blue or more purple.

 

[cacophony555]

In this eBay auction for a Hi-Def NES there is a screenshot of SMB with FCEUX palette that looks like this:

There are also some twitter responses from Analogue, including this iPhone image from today of SMB (again with FCEUX palette) running on the original NT:
https://twitter.com/analogue_co/status/771446629446541312

They also said "so we're working on adding even more color features. More palettes for sure and possibly fine RGB sliders/adjustment."

These two images look considerably different, which I guess supports the point that the TV, TV settings, and how the image is captured can make a big difference.

 

[TSM]

In this eBay auction for a Hi-Def NES there is a screenshot of SMB with FCEUX palette that looks like this:

There are also some twitter responses from Analogue, including this iPhone image from today of SMB (again with FCEUX palette) actually running on the NT mini:
https://twitter.com/analogue_co/status/771446629446541312

They also said "so we're working on adding even more color features. More palettes for sure and possibly fine RGB sliders/adjustment."

These two images look considerably different, which I guess supports the point that the TV, TV settings, and how the image is captured can make a big difference.

Of course they look different. Those are both pictures taken with different cameras from different displays and not frame buffer captures. The problem is that even with frame buffer captures what you see on your screen will look different than what I see on my screen. Even on calibrated monitors like my own there will still be variance between different models of monitors even if they have all been calibrated to the same standard.

I think the big problem is that most people will probably not get the color they remember from the 80s without being able to tweak it themselves. Whatever color they remember is probably slightly different than what another person remembers. Some people are looking for nostalgia more than accuracy. It could be that FCEUX is nearly spot on, but many people would still rather have what they consider correct.

 

[MrPressStart]

Really thinking of snagging one of these.

 

[TheWraith]

These are supposed to ship next month, anyone knows if they're still on track?

 

[cacophony555]

These are supposed to ship next month, anyone knows if they're still on track?

Sounds like it:
https://twitter.com/analogue_co/status/811038388811767808

 

[TheWraith]

Sweet, thanks! Really wonder if they have any updates to new features or resolutions possible on the device. Can't wait to check it out.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Oh, man. I'm pumped now. Can't wait.

 

[F34R]

Oh, man. I'm pumped now. Can't wait.

Same! I'm prepped and ready to play!!

 

[AgeEighty]

Just noticed the Twitter messages; I'd been wondering when these were shipping. Looks like we probably have another couple of weeks left to wait.

I'm really excited to find out what features they've implemented.

 

[AgeEighty]

Analogue just posted this message on their feature request forum:

"With the Nt mini beginning to ship next week, I think you will all be quite happy to see some of the surprise features we have implemented "

 

[F34R]

Analogue just posted this message on their feature request forum:

"With the Nt mini beginning to ship next week, I think you will all be quite happy to see some of the surprise features we have implemented "

Oh snap! Excited!!!!

 

[El Pescado]

Analogue just posted this message on their feature request forum:

"With the Nt mini beginning to ship next week, I think you will all be quite happy to see some of the surprise features we have implemented "

Yes! I can't wait! I wonder what the surprise features are.

 

[thefil]

I was literally just wondering if anyone had done hardware reproduction on an FPGA. There you have it .gif.

*edit* I'm dumb and didn't realize this was old.

 

[AgeEighty]

I was literally just wondering if anyone had done hardware reproduction on an FPGA. There you have it .gif.

*edit* I'm dumb and didn't realize this was old.

It was announced last year, but it's shipping for the first time next week, so it'll be the first time anyone's gotten their hands on this FPGA-recreated NES.

 

[Peltz]

Not a problem at all, I have a repair tech and two sons that are apprentices that do CRT repair. A buddy of mine owns an arcade and has CRTs that he repairs that are as old as 1979. My most recent broadcast CRT is from 2005. I'll play on CRTs until I die if I want, I have no worries.

Marry me.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I received my UPS tracking number a couple of hours ago.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Waiting for some solid impressions on this. RetroUSB put the AVS on sale for $170 and that's hella temping for the price so I'm interested to see if the NT mini is worth over twice as much.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Waiting for some solid impressions on this. RetroUSB put the AVS on sale for $170 and that's hella temping for the price so I'm interested to see if the NT mini is worth over twice as much.

That's going to be pretty subjective IMO. I'd imagine for most people the AVS is fine. I want RGB support and 1080p support and Famicom expansion audio and frankly, the better form factor (for Fami carts) and build quality and I'm pretty serious about what I want and I'm willing to pay for it. It's a lot of cash, for sure.

 

[reson8or]

$450. Wow. WOW!

 

[Chittagong]

Waiting for some solid impressions on this. RetroUSB put the AVS on sale for $170 and that's hella temping for the price so I'm interested to see if the NT mini is worth over twice as much.

I am supposed to get one to test in the next week or so, courtesy Analogue, so I will post an OT with impressions if nobody else has

 

[F34R]

Can't wait!!

analogue ‏@analogue_co 5h5 hours ago

The Nt mini started shipping this morning. We should have all orders shipped by the end of this week.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Can't wait!!

Good to see them get their act together WRT getting stuff out the door on time.

 

[Kawika]

That's going to be pretty subjective IMO. I'd imagine for most people the AVS is fine. I want RGB support and 1080p support and Famicom expansion audio and frankly, the better form factor (for Fami carts) and build quality and I'm pretty serious about what I want and I'm willing to pay for it. It's a lot of cash, for sure.

As an original owner of the Analogue NT. I am really sad I didn't get what they promised. Real hardware, hdmi AND rgb out. I paid a lot of money for this thing and I would like to make it RGB but my particular unit's hdmi works so well and I haven't played anything on it that didn't work (early on Castlevania 3 and Blaster Master didn't but was patched). Sometimes I think I should sell this unit and buy the new one but its hard to want to part ways with the original hardware.

 

[Beer Monkey]

As an original owner of the Analogue NT. I am really sad I didn't get what they promised. Real hardware, hdmi AND rgb out. I paid a lot of money for this thing and I would like to make it RGB but my particular unit's hdmi works so well and I haven't played anything on it that didn't work (early on Castlevania 3 and Blaster Master didn't but was patched). Sometimes I think I should sell this unit and buy the new one but its hard to want to part ways with the original hardware.

I'm always wary of 1.0 products of this nature, but I feel you.

Shipping from Seattle to here is slow, looks like I'm not getting my unit until Monday.

 

[sixteen-bit]

As an original owner of the Analogue NT. I am really sad I didn't get what they promised. Real hardware, hdmi AND rgb out. I paid a lot of money for this thing and I would like to make it RGB but my particular unit's hdmi works so well and I haven't played anything on it that didn't work (early on Castlevania 3 and Blaster Master didn't but was patched). Sometimes I think I should sell this unit and buy the new one but its hard to want to part ways with the original hardware.

Can't you sell the OG one for lots of money? Or did the market on them cool down?

 

[thepenguin55]

Oh shit I totally forgot about this. Not sure what I'm going to do as I've plunked down a ton of money on Switch preorders so depending on what card my order is tied to there might be some problems...

 

[PumpkinSpice]

As an original owner of the Analogue NT. I am really sad I didn't get what they promised. Real hardware, hdmi AND rgb out. I paid a lot of money for this thing and I would like to make it RGB but my particular unit's hdmi works so well and I haven't played anything on it that didn't work (early on Castlevania 3 and Blaster Master didn't but was patched). Sometimes I think I should sell this unit and buy the new one but its hard to want to part ways with the original hardware.

Yeah... aside from convenience IMO RGB is better for this kind of platform than HDMI. The non-square pixels (8:7 PAR) just don't do well scaled to HD resolutions without some kind of horizontal re-sampling. Doing this by spitting out analog and sampling analog works very well, which is the RGB route. To do it digitally you'd need to do a filtered horizontal scale on each scan before sending the data out of the system, which none of the existing HDMI solutions do, or wait for the full frame to be done and scale the whole image horizontally, which adds lag and none of the existing HDMI solutions do. This problem is the reason for the "shimmering" people have reported when scaling is set to the correct aspect ratio.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Oh shit I totally forgot about this. Not sure what I'm going to do as I've plunked down a ton of money on Switch preorders so depending on what card my order is tied to there might be some problems...

I thought this charged when ordered, did it not?

 

[thepenguin55]

I thought this charged when ordered, did it not?

I guess it must have because I just got a shipping notification!

 

[F34R]

I guess it must have because I just got a shipping notification!

I wonder how far back in the orders I am lol.

 

[TheWraith]

They just posted a video displaying all new features:

https://youtu.be/aAjDPDH-prI

No sign of save states though sadly.

 

[kubev]

Is it really so difficult to design an NES controller with the B button diagonally up and to the left of the A button? Why even offer a controller with X and Y buttons in this case?

 

[Kawika]

Yeah... aside from convenience IMO RGB is better for this kind of platform than HDMI. The non-square pixels (8:7 PAR) just don't do well scaled to HD resolutions without some kind of horizontal re-sampling. Doing this by spitting out analog and sampling analog works very well, which is the RGB route. To do it digitally you'd need to do a filtered horizontal scale on each scan before sending the data out of the system, which none of the existing HDMI solutions do, or wait for the full frame to be done and scale the whole image horizontally, which adds lag and none of the existing HDMI solutions do. This problem is the reason for the "shimmering" people have reported when scaling is set to the correct aspect ratio.

Whats hilarious is that I have a Sony BVM20F1U, PVM 14M4U and a XRGB Mini. I didn't get all this until after I bought the NT. I caught the retro bug and I haven't looked back. I have been waiting to see if the new features in the Mini make its way into Kev's hdmi kit.

I wanted wait to see if it would be better just to Mod a NES to the HDMI kit and then make my NT output RGB or If I would upgrade my HDMI kit and mod my nes to RGB. I like that the classic nes has the ability to mod the audio to make it act like the AV famicom with the extra audio channels.

I am assuming there is going to be a period of time where Analogue has the exclusive rights to his HDMI kit and I don't think that these will remain exclusive to Analogue beyond the use of the FPGA.

There is also the option to return my original NT to RGB and get an AVS for convenience. I have brought my NT to many a gathering. You'd never seen so many 30-somethings go oh man I remember this and fight over who has next. This makes getting rid of the HDMI kind of sad. Lastly there is the issue with getting the better color pallet that many moders are using. I think the NT limits my choices in that department.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I think some of the features of the Mini may not be possible in a standalone HDMI mod. For example the double amount of active sprites per scan line and the degree of control over the audio.

 

[cacophony555]

I think some of the features of the Mini may not be possible in a standalone HDMI mod. For example the double amount of active sprites per scan line and the degree of control over the audio.

Yeah, the NT mini supports a bunch of stuff that wasn't possible with the original Nt (or kevtris' HDMI mod). One of the most anticipated new features is the ability to output at 5x height (with 6x width) for screen filling integer scaled output. They've also made Everdrive 100% compatible, added new palettes + user customizable palettes via sd card, controller hotkey customizations, and more...

The video posted above shows off some of it.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Yeah, the NT mini supports a bunch of stuff that wasn't possible with the original Nt (or kevtris' HDMI mod). One of the most anticipated new features is the ability to output at 5x height (with 6x width) for screen filling integer scaled output. They've also made Everdrive 100% compatible, added new palettes + user customizable palettes via sd card, controller hotkey customizations, and more...

Some of those features would be possible with a (new) HDMI mod, though, which is what Kawika was talking about. But I don't think any HDMI mod will ever be able to provide the full functionality of the Mini.

I'm pumped about 5x height scaling and turning on some slight cropping of the sides. Monday night can't get here soon enough.

 

[Yes Boss!]

I'm ordering this but I can not see the component cables or BNC cables on the store. Does anybody know if they stopped selling these?

 

[F34R]

WOOT! Got my shipment confirmation!!