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[MidgarBlowedUp]

I guess she is viewed as the singularity of this feminist movement for gaming, and I guess that's where the large amount of hate comes from. Like it's all focused on her and I just can't understand why so many people harass her to the extent and extremes they do. I don't agree with everything she says, but that doesn't mean I don't support and respect her.

by denying ourselves the space to feel and
to share those feelings we're just perpetuating
this notion that we should all suffer alone
that we should all just toughen up in grow
thicker skin which we shouldn't have to do

This hits home with me and I'm not even harassed on a daily basis like she is.
It's why I sometimes feel like I just want to watch the world burn. Which is very sad.

Obligatory she's_right_you_know.jpg

 

[Wolves Evolve]

The more she speaks, the clearer she gets and the more startling her abuse becomes. That she is able to stand up for games culture being better than it is, still working to protect and extend games culture after all this - is a testament.

I hope she continues to spend time in games doing these talks, but I don't know if I could in her shoes.

When she started, I had my doubts that the videos were going far enough, but it's clear now that hating Anita is a sport to a lot of young people - the content is beside the point. Meme images comparing her to Jack Thompson are incredible to me - I was agape when I saw the first one on reddit with heaps of upvotes. Like, I felt completely abandoned by something I thought was a congenial, positive community.

 

[Marcel]

Ohhh yeah in terms of the gaming landscape for sure you are correct. In terms of selling sex it's 99% targeted at straight males. Which yeah is a problem. Like I said I do think the gaming industry for sure has a representation issue.

I was just talking about other mediums. Stuff like the Film industry target sexuality at both sexes quite a bit.

The film industry is much smarter and more adaptive to how they pander/market. It's not even limited to gender. I've read the industry rags that talk about how they will market to the growing Hispanic population of the US in the future since data finds that Hispanic families still enjoy going to the movies while others stay home.

Though the actual content is sometimes pretty derivative (sequels, remakes etc.), Hollywood also better understands that they need more than just the hetero white male to buy a ticket.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

You are ashamed to play games because there might be girls in skimpy outfits?

That.......does not sound like a healthy way to look at sex.

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[The Technomancer]

Your response highlights my issue with the notion of "like something, but still be critical of it" as an amicable phrase. I think it be quite vapid. For example, "You can enjoy problematic things and still want improvement" translates cleanly into "You can enjoy things with problems and still want to fix those problems", which isn't saying much.

The "problems" might be what's appealing, based on personal taste. So why be critical of them if that's the case? Why not even praise them? Which is what you are doing, in this instance. In this situation, it just comes off as saying "agree with me that this part you like (or are apathetic towards) is bad, you can still like the parts I find acceptable". Sometimes, that's what people are arguing about in the first place.

I guess when the context is "you are (or I'm) not a monster for playing this game I think is somewhat gross, so don't be insulted", it means something.

That's like, always the context, because "you can enjoy something with problems" is an explicit counterpoint to the people who misconstrue criticism as a sweeping value judgement on the game and its players.

 

[blankempathy]

I understand what he is saying. For me, the sexism and male pandering in video games makes me ashamed to admit I play video games. I would never show one of my female friends DoA, it's literally too embarrassing.

If it doesn't bother your friends whats there to be embarrassed about? Hell I remember playing Rumble Roses XX with a female friend of mine. She found the game hilarious. Obviously if your friend is offended by that kind of stuff then don't show it to them.

 

[Michanical]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

I'm in your camp. I couldn't show that to any of my female friends and most of my male friends. It's stuff like this I worry get's attached to the idea of video games and will turn people away.

If it doesn't bother your friends whats there to be embarrassed about? Hell I remember playing Rumble Roses XX with a female friend of mine. She found the game hilarious. Obviously if your friend is offended by that kind of stuff then don't show it to them.

Yeah, but that's what I'm getting at. A) They would be offended, B) It would reflect poorly on me for being actively interested in that blatantly sexist, and C) A and B are completely reasonable, in my opinion.

 

[The Shogun]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

It's for sure ugly yeah I agree.

But there is nothing wrong with it morally at all. It's a scantily clad woman. That's all.

 

[Nanashrew]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

Why is she only dressed in tape?

 

[The Shogun]

Why is she only dressed in tape?

To sell some sex to horny bro's that want some T and A

 

[RM8]

It's for sure ugly yeah I agree.

But there is nothing wrong with it morally at all. It's a scantily clad woman. That's all.

It doesn't need to be morally wrong to be tacky and embarrassing, IMO.

 

[Griss]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

That's only gross because it's an unappealing model of a monster/woman hybrid.

The fact that it is an attempt to appeal to one's sexuality is not gross.

Could you elaborate why you think this is gross? I'm not being snarky, I really, really can't understand it. I'm not someone above criticising games, either, as I have huge issues with the use of violence in games. But sex appeal being gross? I can't 'get' that at all.

 

[JeTmAn81]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

I don't know if I'd call it gross, but it's certainly antiquated. I've been playing through MK9 lately and my eyes have threatened to roll out of my head at the consistently shameful female costuming. So much feels like it's changed since 2011 I keep wondering if MKX is going to have less ridiculous portrayals of women.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

It's for sure ugly yeah I agree.

But there is nothing wrong with it morally at all. It's a scantily clad woman. That's all.

You asked me why I thought it was embarrassing.

There's some distance between "morally wrong" and "embarrassing."

 

[sensui-tomo]

Why is she only dressed in tape?

IIRC she was just made in the flesh pits by Shang Tsung as a clone/replacement for kitana
Although it was a unlockable outfit too.

 

[geordiemp]

If you're old enough to know and see how far gaming has gone from the Zx days, then you can see how gaming could use much less of saving the Princess and other version of the very rudimentary narrative used to push gameplay along.

Anita's videos helped Neil Druckmann make TLOU into a better game. Ellie was written into a better, more impactful character because of her video series. That's quite the endorsement.

I played through TLOU about 3 times (upping difficulty each time), also helped my son play through it (yeah I know). Clickers scared him. Superb game.

My point is that such 'agends' of highlighting sexual diversity of any type is not necessary in games, I cant comment how it improved Ellie as I did not play the version of Ellie before the changes.TLOU was still great though. Most of the story in TLOU flew 10 ft over his head anyway.....There are plenty of mediums for strong social messages other than games is my point. Maybe I am being over protective of the content I choose for my son...

 

[blankempathy]

Why is she only dressed in tape?

To sell some sex to horny bro's that want some T and A

Actually its because she was an experiment and just woke up or some crap. I cant remember the entire details. Either way it just looks stupid. It'd honestly make more sense if she was naked considering the context. They obviously wanted to show off more then they were allowed to hence the tape. If they weren't willing to commit just throw some clothes on her. Who cares about reality when shes sporting tape.

 

[Opto]

It's for sure ugly yeah I agree.

But there is nothing wrong with it morally at all. It's a scantily clad woman. That's all.

On top of a different scantily clad woman on top of a different scantily clad woman in videogames on top of the rest of presentation of women in media

 

[Griss]

You asked me why I thought it was embarrassing.

There's some distance between "morally wrong" and "embarrassing."

You used the word 'gross', though, not 'embarrassing'. That's why you got so many responses. Because the word gross implies deep distaste for something, and as such that feeling would probably only arise if you found moral issue with it.

If it's just embarrassing it's hardly gross, is it?

 

[The Shogun]

That's only gross because it's an unappealing model of a monster/woman hybrid.

The fact that it is an attempt to appeal to one's sexuality is not gross.

Could you elaborate why you think this is gross? I'm not being snarky, I really, really can't understand it. I'm not someone above criticising games, either, as I have huge issues with the use of violence in games. But sex appeal being gross? I can't 'get' that at all.

This is 100% exactly how I feel.

I really really do not understand the whole "sex is bad" angle in media. It is when it's only targeted at one group like we see a lot in gaming but in general?

I feel like these people are like

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Finally got to watch it. Good for her. I god mad respect for her, a weaker person would have bowed out a long time ago.

 

[Marcel]

You used the word 'gross', though, not 'embarrassing'. That's why you got so many responses. Because the word gross implies deep distaste for something, and as such that feeling would probably only arise if you found moral issue with it.

If it's just embarrassing it's hardly gross, is it?

Gross. Embarrassing. I don't see the big deal with the word choice.

He can define how he feels about it without this sort of unnecessary dimestore pedantry.

 

[Griss]

You can absolutely disagree with everything she says, but I just don't understand how anyone is ok with treating a human being like that.

Is anyone okay with it? I haven't seen any evidence of that at all. I'd wager even the people doing the abusing don't think it's okay, but they don't care.

Gross. Embarrassing. I don't see the big deal with the word choice.

He can define how he feels about it without this sort of unnecessary dimestore pedantry.

The reason for such 'pedantry' as you call it was described in my post. Words have meanings.

 

[Lord British]

I really really do not understand the whole "sex is bad" angle in media.

Sex is great. Crass, pandering objectification is bad. And it is everywhere.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

That's only gross because it's an unappealing model of a monster/woman hybrid.

The fact that it is an attempt to appeal to one's sexuality is not gross.

Could you elaborate why you think this is gross? I'm not being snarky, I really, really can't understand it. I'm not someone above criticising games, either, as I have huge issues with the use of violence in games. But sex appeal being gross? I can't 'get' that at all.

Sex appeal can absolutely hit unappealing extremes. I'm playing Danganronpa 2 now and I get actively turned off to the game whenever it delves into its odd (though frequent) moments of fanservice. As in, a character trips and her dress hikes up over her head with and she is tied up spread eagle on the floor. I know who that's supposed to appeal to, but to me, it's so clearly designed to elicit a sexual reaction from me that I can't help but just shake my head.

This, I think, is an example of an unappealing extreme. Like, let's agree that there's a difference between a sexy movie, like, say, Last Tango in Paris, and softcore stuff on Cinemax. Adding elements from the latter to the former, even though they're meant to elicit similar feelings of arousal, is just corny and awkward and can ruin something in totality. Video games have not figured this line between sexy and cinemax out yet. So they just throw the Cinemax on top, because why not?

Not all sex appeal is created equally and the rush to an extreme is, as I said, gross.

 

[geordiemp]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

I don't think its gross, to each his own. I am all for free speech and free market on principal.

However, I would not download that if you paid me. No way. Its so over my line I cannot say, but I would not want it censored if that makes sense. I would dislike it if it came to the point the UK market was censored like Germany etc.

 

[Odrion]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

I agree. Look at those teeth!

edit:

I know right, always a sad panda in the corner, but it pays to know that other people know of the sad panda

Spoiler

to know the sad panda is acknowledging you know its source

Spoiler

But to know something doesn't mean you endorse it. Also Aeris dies. What? This is a spoiler tag.

 

[Saikyo]

Then please get out of video games if video games are merely "enjoyment and escapism".

They can be so much more and I do not want to share a hobby with people who merely think this.

Video Games are not art (imho) and I am going to still enjoy games the way I like, thank you very much : )

 

[sensui-tomo]

Sex appeal can absolutely hit unappealing extremes. I'm playing Danganronpa 2 now and I get actively turned off to the game whenever it delves into its odd (though frequent) moments of fanservice. As in, a character trips and her dress hikes up over her head with and she is tied up spread eagle on the floor. I know who that's supposed to appeal to, but to me, it's so clearly designed to elicit a sexual reaction from me that I can't help but just shake my head.

This, I think, is an example of an unappealing extreme. Like, let's agree that there's a difference between a sexy movie, like, say, Last Tango in Paris, and softcore stuff on Cinemax. Adding elements from the latter to the former, even though they're meant to elicit similar feelings of arousal, is just corny and awkward and can ruin something in totality. Video games have not figured this line between sexy and cinemax out yet. So they just throw the Cinemax on top, because why not?

Not all sex appeal is created equally and the rush to an extreme is, as I said, gross.

Is it wrong for the creator to want to make a game with that kind of quirky sex appeal (that appeals to different people) because he wants to make it that way (not because he is marketing it for horny people) ? as long as it fits within the rating system stuff of course. Please dont take this as an attack or anything, I just want to have a nice discussion on this subject while I can (as i've stated before, this discussion usually gets shitstormed at one point and i do enjoy having this discussion while its still very civil)

 

[Griss]

Sex appeal can absolutely hit unappealing extremes. I'm playing Danganronpa 2 now and I get actively turned off to the game whenever it delves into its odd (though frequent) moments of fanservice. As in, a character trips and her dress hikes up over her head with and she is tied up spread eagle on the floor. I know who that's supposed to appeal to, but to me, it's so clearly designed to elicit a sexual reaction from me that I can't help but just shake my head.

This, I think, is an example of an unappealing extreme. Like, let's agree that there's a difference between a sexy movie, like, say, Last Tango in Paris, and softcore stuff on Cinemax. Adding elements from the latter to the former, even though they're meant to elicit similar feelings of arousal, is just corny and awkward and can ruin something in totality. Video games have not figured this line between sexy and cinemax out yet. So they just throw the Cinemax on top, because why not?

Not all sex appeal is created equally and the rush to an extreme is, as I said, gross.

Well, thanks for the explanation, that's exactly what I was looking for.

As it turns out, our reactions to fanservice and sex appeal (in most games) are typically the same! A shake of the head and a 'tut-tut, how stupid' reaction. But it's a passing thing that doesn't affect my enjoyment of the media in question, and that I don't believe is harmful to anyone. I suspect that's where we differ. And I'm fine with that. I just wanted to get a better handle on your opinion.

Where I like sex appeal is where it's as advertised - say in DoA, where there's no way you don't know what you're in for. Where it's out of the blue is where it puts me off, but again only very slightly.

I also think that we all have to accept that what you or I don't enjoy as fanservice or sex appeal might be extremely enjoyable to others. You might criticise it from an artistic point of view, but I don't think that's enough to say that something's 'problematic'. (To be clear I don't think you've said that.)

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

Yeah, the only thing unambiguously "gross" about that is the teeth. This is puritanical.

 

[Opto]

I don't think its gross, to each his own. I am all for free speech and free market on principal.

However, I would not download that if you paid me. No way.

I don't recall anyone saying the developers shouldn't be able to make this and make it available...

 

[The Shogun]

On top of a different scantily clad woman on top of a different scantily clad woman in videogames on top of the rest of presentation of women in media

In media.

Listen if you want to argue about sexualization in games that's fine you have a point.

If you are arguing in general media you have zero ground to stand on. Here's what will be one this year's biggest films

 

[HTupolev]

Is anyone okay with it? I haven't seen any evidence of that at all.

How about the huge amount of comments (i.e. in the youtube videos) saying that these women are only complaining about death threats to stir up controversy, and that they need to take criticism better?

 

[Mman235]

Maybe slightly OT but I got a ridiculous PM from a throwaway account on Reddit that's presumably triggered by my post in this thread and I'm dying:



Someone's apparently now salty enough to hunt me down on Reddit because I've called out bullshit sources for Anita "criticism" before. Funny how nothing else I've done ever has caused a reaction like that.

 

[Marcel]

Yeah, the only thing unambiguously "gross" about that is the teeth. This is puritanical.

Puritanical would be telling the designers to put clothes on her in a dismissive male authority way. I don't see anyone doing that?

You can feel embarrassed without being puritanical.

 

[RM8]

Is it wrong for the creator to want to make a game with that kind of quirky sex (that appeals to different people) because he wants to make it that way (not because he is marketing it for horny people) ? as long as it fits within the rating system stuff of course.

No, but it'd be cool if there would be an alternative. Asking for more options is not unreasonable at all, I think, and it doesn't mean "in-your-face" tacky fanservice will cease existing.

 

[Jumplion]

This is 100% exactly how I feel.

I really really do not understand the whole "sex is bad" angle in media. It is when it's only targeted at one group like we see a lot in gaming but in general?

I feel like these people are like

Nobody has said that "sex is bad" and you are trying to paint people here as being all "uppity prudes" when that's not what people are complaining about.

Nobody here is complaining about sex and sexuality in and of itself. You have to understand that not everyone gets off to the same things you get off on, and you doubly need to understand just how exclusionary and simultaneously prevalent tactic is a problem for those wanting to try to get into gaming but aren't into this stuff.

It's only targeted at one group, yes. And it's practically the only group that has been targeted by game publishers and developers over the years. You need to understand just how truly pandered to us guys are in the media.

 

[sensui-tomo]

No, but it'd be cool if there would be an alternative. Asking for more options is not unreasonable at all, I think, and it doesn't mean "in-your-face" tacky fanservice will cease existing.

You mean like an option to "Toggle fan service on and off" ?, well yeah i'd love that to be in stuff, that alone can fix some issues.

 

[Nanashrew]

Alberto, you brought up DOA before, but what are your thoughts on the previous games 1-4? I'm actually looking at the costumes and DOA4 and they look quite tame to the more recent DOA5

http://deadoralive.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_4/Costumes

With the exception of a few like Christie, Lisa, and Tina, the majority seem well covered up. They display some sex appeal but there is some modesty to them and not almost naked like in the latest game.

 

[Opto]

In media.

Listen if you want to argue about sexualization in games that's fine you have a point.

If you are arguing in general media you have zero ground to stand on. Here's what will be one this year's biggest films

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/68/MagicMikeXXL_TeaserPoster.jpg/220px-MagicMikeXXL_TeaserPoster.jpg[/mg]

[img]http://www.happi927.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Magic-Mike-XXL-2015.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/RwPR0q5es0A/maxresdefault.jpg[/ig][/QUOTE]

Please don't tell me you're saying Magic Mike and a sequel is somehow outweighing the objectification of women.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I played through TLOU about 3 times (upping difficulty each time), also helped my son play through it (yeah I know). Clickers scared him. Superb game.

My point is that such 'agends' of highlighting sexual diversity of any type is not necessary in games, I cant comment how it improved Ellie as I did not play the version of Ellie before the changes.TLOU was still great though. Most of the story in TLOU flew 10 ft over his head anyway.....There are plenty of mediums for strong social messages other than games is my point. Maybe I am being over protective of the content I choose for my son...

I genuinely don't understand where you're coming from. What makes videogames so different that whereas any other medium can tackle mature and controversial themes, videogames alone must remain toys for children?

Hell, I recall reading one of your earlier posts that you finished Dragon Age Inquisition twice! You can't tell me in good faith that game's narrative wasn't strengthened by the way it tackled the theme of faith and how you and your character reacted to it.

I am even more confused by the suggestion that you're over protective of your son. Perhaps I am wildly misinterpreting you, but it seems to read to me that you don't want him exposed to content that may challenge him or broaden his horizons.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

My view on sex is plenty healthy.

I think this is gross.

But that's just my opinion.

Only thing that really bothers me given the context this is Mortal Kombat is her head seems way too small for that torso. Honestly, NetherRealm isn't that great at modelling women in general.

I'm completely apathetic towards the consequence of having fanservice in video games, but I'm similarly apathetic towards critique of it.

 

[kcp12304]

People way too often mix up sexy and sexualized.

Sexy is fine and sexualized has historically been a problem with video games because of how few female characters appear in games. When they do appear, they have no character and only exist to pander to teenage boys or exist as plot devices (usually as helpless victims being kidnapped).

Sexuality should be explored more in games. RPS has a column called S.EXE (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/tag/s-exe/) that explores how video games handle sexuality. I want to see more of that kind of stuff.

 

[Riposte]

That's like, always the context, because "you can enjoy something with problems" is an explicit counterpoint to the people who misconstrue criticism as a sweeping value judgement on the game and its players.

Maybe more than I might have implied, but I do feel there's more to it than that, especially when it comes to judging individual elements shared between many games rather than whole games. I think the phrase does nothing to resolve the fight over specific tropes or imagery and comes off as fairly pointless.

Nah. I haven't watched many of Anita's videos, but I watched the "Ms. male character" one, and I found it to be true. MeeMee from Super Monkey Ball is a Ms. male character, and her main trait is being a female (she even wears a skirt - a pink skirt! ). I don't think MeeMee is terrible, gross or evil, and I actually love MeeMee in Super Monkey Ball. In the same way, you could see that DOA's nipple-and-labia-covering bikini outfits might make some players uncomfortable, or identify that the fanservice doesn't go both ways (skimpy outfits for males are basically MMA outfits, not tiny thongs with bouncy testicles, lol) - and you can still love DOA.

I think what you are pointing out is different, but similar. No amount of arguing takes away what one feels in reaction to something, whether it be for or against something. That sort of empathy is fairly necessary to understand someone's point of view, even if not to the point of ceding your own. It's not fair to just dismiss them entirely. On the other hand, the well is pretty poisoned, maybe enviably so.

I will say I rarely see people go "I love the T&A of Dead or Alive, but it's problematic (because other people don't)", which is what you describing for yourself in the Monkey Ball example. It's more of "this is a bad thing, in a thing I like overall", the form we just saw in this thread.

 

[The Shogun]

Please don't tell me you're saying Magic Mike and a sequel is somehow outweighing the objectification of women.

We are getting Magic Mike XXL and 50 Shades of Grey in the same year. 2 massive sex fantasies aimed squarely at women.

Please don't argue with me that women are unfairly sexualizd in current holywood in comparison to men. It's blatantly false. Both are sexed up a ton.

 

[Marcel]

You mean like an option to "Toggle fan service on and off" ?, well yeah i'd love that to be in stuff, that alone can fix some issues.

I'd rather critically examine the contents of a game with fanservice, the cultural implications of those choices or otherwise rather than turn it off. Cutting out something from your understanding because reasons seems sort of needlessly exclusionary to me, even if I disagree with it or am embarrassed by it.

There's no sense in hiding from something that can deepen your understanding of what's problematic and use that information to better your own social awareness.

 

[molnizzle]

Please don't tell me you're saying Magic Mike and a sequel is somehow outweighing the objectification of women.

That's not what he's saying. All he's saying is that there's nothing wrong with the objectification of women. The solution here is to have more objectification of men, not less objectification of women. Humans are sexual creatures and there's nothing wrong with that.

Buncha puritans up in here.

 

[Opto]

We are getting Magic Mike XXL and 50 Shades of Grey in the same year. 2 massive sex fantasies aimed squarely at women.

Please don't argue with me that women are unfairly sexualizd in current holywood in comparison to men. It's blatantly false. Both are sexed up a ton.

aaaaaaaand nope

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Is it wrong for the creator to want to make a game with that kind of quirky sex appeal (that appeals to different people) because he wants to make it that way (not because he is marketing it for horny people) ? as long as it fits within the rating system stuff of course. Please dont take this as an attack or anything, I just want to have a nice discussion on this subject while I can (as i've stated before, this discussion usually gets shitstormed at one point and i do enjoy having this discussion while its still very civil)

There's always going to be a market for any kind of game. Keep in mind, I write video game criticism, so when I say "I think fighting games have a sexuality problem," I don't mean "BAN DOA IT IS THE WORST."

I think DOA is particularly interesting, actually, because DOA5 clearly tried to make an attempt to be taken it a bit more seriously. The slogan for the game was "I'm a Fighter!" and Mila, a short-haired MMA fighter with a not-totally-unrealistic build and a t-shirt and jeans as her main outift, as the new game's poster child.

And then none of that got nearly as much attention as the barbie doll dress up and boobs. So they went back to what sells and that's why we got Nyotengu and Rachel and, sigh, Marie Rose. And I guess, you know, whatever. If that's what the audience wants, that's what the audience wants.

But I think it's fascinating that the DOA community is trying to shirk that baggage and want the game to be taken seriously at the same time Tecmo is pushing hard on the sexual aspects of it, so there are clearly multiple groups that want different things from that series.

It's up to developers and publishers to decide what audience matters to them. No one is going to get what they want 100% of the time and, well, pointing out what you think is problematic and wanting it to change is no different from not buying a game unless it caters to the types of things that arouse you. I think Capcom went one direction with SF, I think it looks like MKX is cleaning up its act, I think DOA went the opposite direction.

Things are fluid.