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[A Link to the Past]

Even if everything you just said is true I find your 'all of nothing' attitude extremely troubling, it just creates more victims which further entrenches and widens the divides; are you able to see how this is the case? Your argument isn't predicated on GamerGate being or not being parallel to the KKK, it's predicated on the idea that anyone is fair game and everyone should be treated the same regardless of context. 'Well they had it coming' as a means of absolution from any personal responsibility to the people who get hurt on the side you don't agree with, 'well they should have known better'. Well some people just don't and are probably delightful people who aren't aware or view the situation differently, and the fact that you're ok with applying blanket 'punishment' against everyone is kind of fucked up, no offense.

EDIT: Whatever though, I'll bow out, there's no point in trying to be reasonable when every people involved in this thing is so worked up and polarized.

"GamerGate will be over by Christmas" remember that argument?

You're proposing that if you join a hate group, one that is being investigated by the FBI, that has a Congresswoman saying that members should be investigated and prosecuted for making death threats, that you should not have to get in trouble for your association.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Swastika.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Klan outfit.

You lose your job if you're wearing a pro-GamerGate tee.

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. There are people who legitimately think that the KKK is a good thing - should these people be considered victims if they are punished for being members?

(Also I have no regret for comparing GG to Nazis and Klansmen. I have seen horrific and despicable things come out of GG, I have seen operations where people plot to push trans people to suicide. I have no room for sympathy towards anyone who associates with them.)

 

[Lethe82]

It's not the nexus of my argument at all. In fact I posted like 20 posts in this thread before it even came up. People are stuck on it because it's brazen and I'm openly discussing something as blatant as people screwing for our enjoyment to better understand what we are and are not OK with in terms of sex. We are against objectification but we are for objectifying bodies in certain circumstances. It's an interesting contradiction and one that is good to understand when looking at the overall theme of showing sexual situations.

If it's OK for me to look at a naked woman and enjoy it in one scenario and then be disgusted with it another, why? What changed?

The key my friend is context. And that context in terms of media consumption is an interesting line.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGeAMVK75T4

Funny how Bateman is deliberately positioned to be objectified as a sex object in this scene, but it's celebrated. Where as more often than not women are shamed for the same activity (much more so the world round). Says something about attitudes, but context is absolutely paramount. Had they had a woman in the same scene, it would have been much harder to pass, or raised more eyebrows in western circles.

You're proposing that if you join a hate group, one that is being investigated by the FBI, that has a Congresswoman saying that members should be investigated and prosecuted for making death threats, that you should not have to get in trouble for your association.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Swastika.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Klan outfit.

You lose your job if you're wearing a pro-GamerGate tee.

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. There are people who legitimately think that the KKK is a good thing - should these people be considered victims if they are punished for being members?

No I said context matters, let the punishment fit the crime, not the banner. It's clear you won't actually engage on this topic, so I'll leave you be. Have a good night.

 

[A Link to the Past]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGeAMVK75T4

Funny how Bateman is deliberately positioned to be objectified as a sex object in this scene, but it's celebrated. Where as more often than not women are shamed for the same activity (much more so the world round). Says something about attitudes, but context is absolutely paramount. Had they had a woman in the same scene, it would have been much harder to pass, or raised more eyebrows in western circles.

This is a scene depicting Bateman's megalomania, his obsession with himself and perfection. Showing his perfection is not for the sake of tantilizing the audience, it's there to set the stage, it's there for Batemen's sake. You really don't understand this movie at all.

 

[Opto]

You're proposing that if you join a hate group, one that is being investigated by the FBI, that has a Congresswoman saying that members should be investigated and prosecuted for making death threats, that you should not have to get in trouble for your association.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Swastika.

You lose your job if you're wearing a Klan outfit.

You lose your job if you're wearing a pro-GamerGate tee.

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. There are people who legitimately think that the KKK is a good thing - should these people be considered victims if they are punished for being members?

(Also I have no regret for comparing GG to Nazis and Klansmen. I have seen horrific and despicable things come out of GG, I have seen operations where people plot to push trans people to suicide. I have no room for sympathy towards anyone who associates with them.)

Plus the literal association GG has with nazis and racists

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Can you elaborate upon why you think she got into video games for the sake of money?

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.

Isn't that how people who went to school to learn and read were taught how to argue?

You have a premise and you back that premise up with examples to support that premise.

Have you ever written a book report?

You're done the same thing.

The point I was trying to make,and I obviously did a poor job of making it, is that her research reeks of confirmation bias.

That she didn't form her opinion from playing video games. She already had her opinion, and then found video games that support it, while at the same time ignoring any video games that contradict it.

 

[Vice]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGeAMVK75T4

Funny how Bateman is deliberately positioned to be objectified as a sex object in this scene, but it's celebrated. Where as more often than not women are shamed for the same activity (much more so the world round). Says something about attitudes, but context is absolutely paramount. Had they had a woman in the same scene, it would have been much harder to pass, or raised more eyebrows in western circles.

There are plenty of scenes like that with women tgat are praised in Western circles. It's a character study where the leads narcissism is a key part of the film. It's different than Camereon Diaz, or Channing Tatum, taking their shirt off because there's an arbitrary tits and ass quata for the lowest common denominator.

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.



The point I was trying to make,and I obviously did a poor job of making it, is that her research reeks of confirmation bias.

That she didn't form her opinion from playing video games. She already had her opinion, and then found video games that support it, while at the same time ignoring any video games that contradict it.

She acknowledges those game at the end of the majority of her videos.

 

[MagnesD3]

People used to own slaves by law. Women used to be unable to own property. And you giving up on humans because of aggression on twitter and mean-spirited youtube comments?

I give up on humanity for many reasons, it may marginally get better but what little we do accomplish will probably get snuffed out soon, humanity is just as bad as it ever was. We just have more rules now that seem to be followed for now. Im just going to try to live good and enjoy the good times while I can.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.

Can you elaborate on the standard you hold that causes a person to no longer be playing the "victim card" and actually being a victim? This is important to know, as it helps us better understand your views on victimization.

Plus the literal association GG has with nazis and racists

Yup. You don't associate with Milo, King of Pol, and Aurini by accident.

 

[More_Badass]

Plus the literal association GG has with nazis and racists

And a guy who's only a white nationalist """on paper"""

Spoiler

Always love getting a chance to post that video

 

[...Scatter...]

The desired end game is for people to be able to discuss and criticize video games and the culture surrounding it without having to worry that someone is going to kill them.

That seems more than reasonable. I never really understood why people got up in arms over people asking for inclusivity. The whole thing seems preposterous. How is there even two sides to this debate?

 

[Lethe82]

This is a scene depicting Bateman's megalomania, his obsession with himself and perfection. Showing his perfection is not for the sake of tantilizing the audience, it's there to set the stage, it's there for Batemen's sake. You really don't understand this movie at all.

What I was speaking about had little to do with the purpose of the scene, which is obvious. Maybe you've never understood that you can make commentary on a scene without it being intended as a deconstruction of the primary meaning within the context of the film.

Also, now you're just being rude and making clear logical jumps to attack me, so please stop corresponding with me.

There are plenty of scenes like that with women tgat are praised in Western circles. It's a character study where the leads narcissism is a key part of the film. It's different than Camereon Diaz, or Channing Tatum, taking their shirt off because there's an arbitrary tits and ass quata for the lowest common denominator.

Absolutely but this does not invalidate my statement. To put it simply, even when it is tasteful there is absolutely a more puritanical attitude towards womens bodies over males bodies. The rest isn't addressing my point but is something I agree with and indirectly stated as much (context matters!).

 

[ibyea]

The KKK is a very different beast than GamerGate. The KKK should not be underminded, of course - the fact that they're racist scum doesn't change the fact that many are highly intelligent people in other areas. GG has a lot of people who are either intelligent, or think they are intelligent. Look at Total "155 IQ" Biscuit. That said, GGers are famous for spinning information, such as when Blizzard criticized the harassment in the industry, GG claimed that they were talking about the harassment towards GamerGate.

No, not really. They are both hate movements.

 

[Princess Carl]

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.



The point I was trying to make,and I obviously did a poor job of making it, is that her research reeks of confirmation bias.

That she didn't form her opinion from playing video games. She already had her opinion, and then found video games that support it, while at the same time ignoring any video games that contradict it.

Just like those pesky blacks always playing the victim card right? Can't they just stop complaining? I'm tired of hearing it!

 

[More_Badass]

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.



The point I was trying to make,and I obviously did a poor job of making it, is that her research reeks of confirmation bias.

That she didn't form her opinion from playing video games. She already had her opinion, and then found video games that support it, while at the same time ignoring any video games that contradict it.

Ah, the "playing the victim card" argument! For not knowing much about her, you're sure making some pretty damning assumptions and accusations

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.

"Man, I can't believe that woman who got forced out of her home, lives in constant vigilance and has to have police presence when talking about fucking video games keeps bringing up her problems! Why won't she stop playing the victim card!?"

 

[Vice]

What I was speaking about had little to do with the purpose of the scene, which is obvious. Maybe you've never understood that you can make commentary on a scene without it being intended as a deconstruction of the primary meaning within the context of the film.

Also, now you're just being rude and making clear logical jumps to attack me, so please stop corresponding with me.

But, the context matters. Marrisa Tomei was praised for her portrayal as a cheap stripper in "The Wrestler" for example and her ass and tits were hanging out nearly the entire time she was on screen. Scenes that show mens bodies for no real purpose are called out quite often and are the subject of many documentaries and studies.
The subject of hyper masculinity and the portrayal of male bodies in fiction is a subject that plenty of people get up in arms about.

 

[...Scatter...]

The desired end goal is that media is as diverse and representative as the people who consume it. That creators are allowed to tell whatever stories they want, rather than just stories marketers believe will resonate with a straight, white male audience. That it is no longer a pleasant surprise that a woman can head a AAA blockbuster or that the Chinese guy in your game isn't either a hacker or martial artist.

And I'm sorry, but I will continue to belittle your position that greater inclusivity would somehow make games boring or too PC, because that is a ridiculous position. Allowing creators to explore the full scope of their creativity rather than checking off boxes on a list handed by marketing would do anything but make games boring. Hell, the fucking Saints Row games have been some of the most inclusive in modern gaming and it'd be ridiculous to accuse those games of being shackled by PC concerns.

I hope you know that I agree with you.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What I was speaking about had little to do with the purpose of the scene, which is obvious. Maybe you've never understood that you can make commentary on a scene without it being intended as a deconstruction of the primary meaning within the context of the film.

Also, now you're just being rude and making clear logical jumps to attack me, so please stop corresponding with me.



Absolutely but this does not invalidate my statement. The rest isn't addressing my point but is something I agree with and indirectly stated as much (context matters).

With fairness, I DID take issue with you saying that people joining hate groups are victims.

No, not really. They are both hate movements.

We're not in disagreement on that. I was saying that the KKK and GG are different kinds of hate movements, and can't be dealt with in the same way.

 

[Lethe82]

But, the context matters. Marrisa Tomei was praised for her portrayal as a cheap stripper in "The Wrestler" for example and her ass and tits were hanging out nearly the entire time she was on screen. Scenes that show mens bodies for no real purpose are called out quite often and are the subject of many documentaries and studies.

I agree with you, context matters! We're certainly getting better about it, but there are all kinds of crazy imbalances in our Euro/Western centrist culture when it comes to what is acceptable between the genders.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I hope you know that I agree with you.

I do now. But you sure didn't sound like it initially.

 

[Lethe82]

With fairness, I DID take issue with you saying that people joining hate groups are victims.

I didn't say they were victims, I said that all people within GamerGate shouldn't be left to the wolves and painted with the exact same brush (as per you condoning turning a blind eye to any and all attacks or transgressions against them) regardless of context.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I didn't say they were victims, I said that all people within GamerGate shouldn't be left to the wolves and painted with the exact same brush (as per you condoning turning a blind eye to any and all attacks or transgressions against them) regardless of context.

People against GG have given members plenty of time and opportunities to leave the movement. The ones that are in the movement are beyond reproach. They not only don't care about their perception, they in fact seem to relish in it. And anyone new to the group isn't joining for the ""ethical"" reasons, they're joining because they hate PC and SJWs and LW.

 

[Oersted]

I don't know enough about her to speculate on that. I'm just skeptical that her video series will amount to much.

And i'm tired of her playing the victim card.

Now imagine how tired she must be of being a actual victim.

 

[Lethe82]

People against GG have given members plenty of time and opportunities to leave the movement. The ones (everyone) that are in the movement are beyond reproach. They not only don't care about their perception, they in fact seem to relish in it. And anyone new to the group isn't joining for the ""ethical"" reasons, they're joining because they hate PC and SJWs and LW.

Well I disagree with you and that's that I suppose.

 

[ibyea]

We're not in disagreement on that. I was saying that the KKK and GG are different kinds of hate movements, and can't be dealt with in the same way.

See, I disagree on that. I think they are both groups that should be treated consistently. The other commenter talked about educating or whatever, sure, if someone wants to do that, they can do it. A few people in gamergate can also probably be educated. At the end of the day, there needs to be a point, including KKK where you draw a line in the sand and say they are the scum of society. Because there is only so much education can do, and really, there comes a point when naivity and ignorance is no excuse. So personally, I don't have a problem tarring the KKK with the same wide brush done to gamergate.

 

[A Link to the Past]

See, I disagree on that. I think they are both groups that should be treated consistently. The other commenter talked about educating or whatever, sure, if someone wants to do that, they can do it. A few people in gamergate can also probably be educated. At the end of the day, there needs to be a point, including KKK where you draw a line in the sand and say they are the scum of society. Because there is only so much education can do, and really, there comes a point when naivity and ignorance is no excuse. So personally, I don't have a problem tarring the KKK with the same wide brush done to gamergate.

But I'm also agreeing with you on that, I dunno where we differ!

 

[Lethe82]

See, I disagree on that. I think they are both groups that should be treated consistently. The other commenter talked about educating or whatever, sure, if someone wants to do that, they can do it. A few people in gamergate can also probably be educated. At the end of the day, there needs to be a point, including KKK where you draw a line in the sand and say they are the scum of society. Because there is only so much education can do, and really, there comes a point when naivity and ignorance is no excuse. So personally, I don't have a problem tarring the KKK with a wide brush.

New study shows that interaction and empathy reduces racism

It has in fact been the best weapon against racism for quite some time.

 

[pakkit]

People against GG have given members plenty of time and opportunities to leave the movement. The ones that are in the movement are beyond reproach. They not only don't care about their perception, they in fact seem to relish in it. And anyone new to the group isn't joining for the ""ethical"" reasons, they're joining because they hate PC and SJWs and LW.

They hate them? Maybe, but it also could be that they only know strawman representations of them. Similar to the way racism is prevalent in less diverse (or heavily segregated) areas. I think if we allow for civil conversation (on both sides) then we can actually work to show that criticism is not the damnable offense some people think it is. GG may be misguided, but I don't think witchhunts are ever a reasonable response. I have encountered people who are just honestly naive and misplace their belief that games journalism is corrupt (a belief that is not altogether misguided) and therefore get swooped up into the narrative of GG.

 

[Nanashrew]

You directly equated them, and your statement was that essentially guilt by association was or should be the accepted method of punishment for anyone that is in Gamergate regardless of individual ideas and preferences. I disputed that and see no reply to my post in the above response? I find your 'all of nothing' attitude extremely troubling, it just creates more victims which further entrenches and widens the divides.

I honestly don't believe GG has any ignorant or innocent people left, especially not after it was discovered their main headquarters 8chan was harboring pedophilia. I saw quite a few decide to leave after that because they do not support pedophilia in any shape or form. Many left in that hate movement have dropped the pretense that it's about "ethics in games journalism" and that it's against feminism and the biggest teachers of that movement are extremist MRA's like Rooshv, serial harassers like FarttoContinue and Sargon of Akkad, conservatives like Adam Baldwin, unethical journalists and tea party sites like Milo Yiannopoulos of Brietbart, a doxxer and blackmailer indie developer Slade Villena. And then there is Fredrick "Hotwheels" Brennan, the owner of 8chan and hosting pedophilia and has spoken in support of eugenics on a neo-nazi site. There is endless holocaust denial from many members of the movement including some of the "moderates" I just mentioned.

With their powers combined as well as their pawns they forced a Sikh man off of Twitter by bombarding him with harassment and racial slurs. A man who was only fighting for equality and wants games to be better.

GG is an honest to God misogynistic/racial hate group filled with people who have a history of these things in different industries including our own all packed into one single group to focus on the one area left where they can "seek refuge from women."

How do you propose we change things and get through to those that have no intention of listening? I have honestly tried to talk to some but to no avail. It's gotten to a point that there is simply no point in trying to even open a dialogue with them because all they want to do to you is silence you.

 

[Lethe82]

They hate them? Maybe, but it also could be that they only know strawman representations of them. Similar to the way racism is prevalent in less diverse (or heavily segregated) areas. I think if we allow for civil conversation (on both sides) then we can actually work to show that criticism is not the damnable offense some people think it is. GG may be misguided, but I don't think witchhunts are ever a reasonable response.

Merciful Poseidon, thank you.

 

[ibyea]

New study shows that interaction and empathy reduces racism

It has in fact been the best weapon against racism for quite some time.

Okay. Doesn't change the fact that those people joined a scummy organization with scummy goals and methods.

 

[Dusk Soldier]

Can you elaborate on the standard you hold that causes a person to no longer be playing the "victim card" and actually being a victim? This is important to know, as it helps us better understand your views on victimization.

You can be a victim and still play the victim card...

It's not an either/or situation. Do you even know what that expression means?

 

[ibyea]

But I'm also agreeing with you on that, I dunno where we differ!

You said something about KKK being different. Also, I know we don't disagree a whole lot. That was just a little nitpick.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You can be a victim and still play the victim card...

It's not an either/or situation. Do you even know what that expression means?

I'm aware of what it is. I'm just curious what she does to make it that she's playing the victim card.

You said something about KKK being different. Also, I know we don't disagree a whole lot. That was just a little nitpick.

I meant that they were different in that the people were different, they might handle organizations differently, etc. I do not dispute that their hate is the same, though.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

New study shows that interaction and empathy reduces racism

It has in fact been the best weapon against racism for quite some time.

I don't think you're using that link correctly.

Empathy for racists isn't the best weapon against racism.

 

[stupei]

I find it interesting how much emphasis is placed on male pleasure and the stereotypical male gaze, so that even when we discuss attraction or sexuality, there's this idea that if you're not into the idea of objectifying women, it's because you're not tuned in to your own sexual urges.

I'm a woman who is attracted to women. The way women are routinely objectified in media like video games isn't remotely appealing, sexually or emotionally.

So when people say that not being into the way female bodies are presented in games is prudish, or somehow not in touch with one's own sexuality, what they are actually saying is that they prioritize the stereotypical male expression of sex and sexuality as all encompassing. That only one kind of expression of sexuality is to be expected.

(Not that the erasure of queer female sexuality is anything new. You also see it in almost any discussion of same sex interactions between women in media, where the "fan service" is immediately assumed to be "for men," because men and male interests are assumed as the default. People seem to completely forget that lesbian and bisexual women consume this media too.)

This keeps coming up in almost every thread that's remotely related to sex and sexuality, again and again. Part of the female presence in even something as simple as attraction is just casually overlooked and marginalized. It's incredibly frustrating. There's nothing inherently prudish about not finding it attractive or appealing when the body being objectified, all agency removed, looks like my own.

 

[Odrion]

New study shows that interaction and empathy reduces racism

It has in fact been the best weapon against racism for quite some time.

I am laughing so hard.

 

[Oersted]

They hate them? Maybe, but it also could be that they only know strawman representations of them. Similar to the way racism is prevalent in less diverse (or heavily segregated) areas. I think if we allow for civil conversation (on both sides) then we can actually work to show that criticism is not the damnable offense some people think it is. GG may be misguided, but I don't think witchhunts are ever a reasonable response. I have encountered people who are just honestly naive and misplace their belief that games journalism is corrupt (a belief that is not altogether misguided) and therefore get swooped up into the narrative of GG.

You know what a strawman is? Anyway, also regarding the empathy post, she is commenting on the problems, like so many others. She is exposing what she has to suffer from, like so many others. Talks, based on that, are already happening in a civil way.

Civil discourse and empathy has been denied only on one side.

Edit:

New study shows that interaction and empathy reduces racism

It has in fact been the best weapon against racism for quite some time.

Well, how do I explain this to you...

 

[The Shogun]

I find it interesting how much emphasis is placed on male pleasure and the stereotypical male gaze, so that even when we discuss attraction or sexuality, there's this idea that if you're not into the idea of objectifying women, it's because you're not tuned in to your own sexual urges.

I'm a woman who is attracted to women. The way women are routinely objectified in media like video games isn't remotely appealing, sexually or emotionally.

So when people say that not being into the way female bodies are presented in games is prudish, or somehow not in touch with one's own sexuality, what they are actually saying is that they prioritize the stereotypical male expression of sex and sexuality as all encompassing. That only one kind of expression of sexuality is to be expected.

(Not that the erasure of queer female sexuality is anything new. You also see it in almost any discussion of same sex interactions between women in media, where the "fan service" is immediately assumed to be "for men," because men and male interests are assumed as the default. People seem to completely forget that lesbian and bisexual women consume this media too.)

This keeps coming up in almost every thread that's remotely related to sex and sexuality, again and again. Part of the female presence in even something as simple as attraction is just casually overlooked and marginalized. It's incredibly frustrating. There's nothing inherently prudish about not finding it attractive or appealing when the body being objectified, all agency removed, looks like my own.

Solid post but I think it rises from a couple things

1. Men are much more visual when it comes to sex. It really is true, and certainly it's not the ONLY factor and not all men are that way. But your average man is very visual when it comes to sexual arousal. Women of course can be as well however.
2. I have no issues at all with someone saying they don't like "fan service" type stuff in games. My problem comes up when people try to force that opinion on other. If you like sexy stuff in games that is not wrong. At all.
3. The problem is with the industry. How many great representation is there of women? Not much. Ellie in The Last of Us is an excellent example but these are far fewer than they should be. This exasperate the problem as those who are not fans of fan service type stuff have a much smaller pool to pull from than they should. Thus pushing away those looking for a lower sexed up experience
4. You are 100% correct the LGBT community is not catered to enough. There's some great ones though like Gone Home. I'm a straight guy and I even found it incredibly moving.


Honestly what we need far and away more than anything is stronger story tellers.

 

[pakkit]

Empathy for racists isn't the best weapon against racism.

Considering the success of non-violent protests in the past century, I think you might be wrong. The US didn't push the Civil Rights Act through by destroying the segregationists, instead, it created a national conversation and forced people to actively consider the consequences of their policies. But I digress...

If you're a feminist, I think promoting feminist beliefs without alienating others is an important skill. I'm not the best at it, admittedly, but I am getting better with time. It's a little less reactionary, a little less angry, a little less immediate, but I think it works towards progress all the same. One easy way to connect to someone outside of your realm of thought is to avoid comparing them to obvious evils (KKK, Nazis...whatever) while pointing out the danger of their beliefs.

In the case of GG, they actually stand nothing to gain with their position (games are going to get developed all the same), but what they stand to lose is new experiences and a wider interest in the hobby they claim to love. And if one is really interesting in gaming ethics, we should push to kill off the entrenchment of magazine publishers and videogame companies. The hype machine is toxic. These issues are far more influential than the small size of feminist criticism that exists in gaming. Feminist critique is after-the-fact, hype and hype journalism is before games get released, and builds this environment hinged on preorders, hidden fees, and review controversy.

Still I can't see how her situation is related to videogames.
I mean, harassment is more of an internet thing than a videogaming thing.

Because her harassment only started after she focused on videogames. FeministFrequency had existed before. Feminist critique has existed for decades. The harassment has not been on this scale before.

 

[MegamanPoweredUP]

Still I can't see how her situation is related to videogames.
I mean, harassment is more of an internet thing than a videogaming thing.

 

[fastballspecial]

It's crazy that people think it's okay to use a computer or a phone or a forum as a shield when it comes to the way they act or treat anyone while using the internet. IT'S NOT OKAY TO BE AN ASSHOLE.

 

[Oersted]

Still I can't see how her situation is related to videogames.
I mean, harassment is more of an internet thing than a videogaming thing.

Anita Sarkeesian is getting harassed for critizing videogames. Thats how.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

It's crazy that people think it's okay to use a computer or a phone or a forum as a shield when it comes to the way they act or treat anyone while using the internet. IT'S NOT OKAY TO BE AN ASSHOLE.

Doesn't help when most if not all of those same people would agree it's wrong to act that way offline and in-person. I really don't want internet anonymity to go but there has to be actual consequences for what people do online.

 

[Nanashrew]

Still I can't see how her situation is related to videogames.
I mean, harassment is more of an internet thing than a videogaming thing.

There used to be a tumblr that cataloged the death threats CoD developers would receive, and it would always explode around the time of an update like say, a sniper rifle reload time getting nerfed by a fraction of a second.

Then there's Jennifer Hepler, now formerly of Bioware. She and her family were sent death threats forcing her to leave the industry for her and her children's safety. http://metro.co.uk/2013/08/16/bioware-writer-quits-after-death-threats-to-family-3925970/

Harassment and death threats has a lot to do with games and in magnitudes bigger than in any other industry.

And while we're still on a slight discussion of GamerGate, many of the people who sent harassment and threats to Jennifer Hepler are in GamerGate.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

Considering the success of non-violent protests in the past century, I think you might be wrong. The US didn't push the Civil Rights Act through by destroying the segregationists, instead, it created a national conversation and forced people to actively consider the consequences of their policies. But I digress...

If you're a feminist, I think promoting feminist beliefs without alienating others is an important skill. I'm not the best at it, admittedly, but I am getting better with time. It's a little less reactionary, a little less angry, a little less immediate, but I think it works towards progress all the same. One easy way to connect to someone outside of your realm of thought is to avoid comparing them to obvious evils (KKK, Nazis...whatever) while pointing out the danger of their beliefs.

This is a bad analogy. Civil rights legislation came through not because hardcore racists were convinced that their hatred was illogical, but by turning people who considered themselves moderate on the issues. The hardcore racists had their best tools for institutional prejudice taken away from them (often via the courts and not via legislation), which gave more room for a conversation, and through those conversations, those hardcore racists became ostracized as more and more of society was dissuaded from taking their positions as something reasonable.

Trying to follow that model in the case of GG would not mean trying to have serious conversations with people who remain in the movement. A similar tack here would be to get the judicial system to actually enforce penalties for the ongoing harassment, which might open up opportunities for conversation.

Well, that, or cause another spark of outrage in GG, whose actions are basically the best PR you could have to help defeat them.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Considering the success of non-violent protests in the past century, I think you might be wrong. The US didn't push the Civil Rights Act through by destroying the segregationists, instead, it created a national conversation and forced people to actively consider the consequences of their policies.

That's still not empathy for racists.

 

[Opto]

Solid post but I think it rises from a couple things

Oh no.

1. Men are much more visual when it comes to sex. It really is true, and certainly it's not the ONLY factor and not all men are that way. But your average man is very visual when it comes to sexual arousal. Women of course can be as well however.

Oh boy.

2. I have no issues at all with someone saying they don't like "fan service" type stuff in games. My problem comes up when people try to force that opinion on other. If you like sexy stuff in games that is not wrong. At all.

There's forcing and there's argument.

3. The problem is with the industry. How many great representation is there of women? Not much. Ellie in The Last of Us is an excellent example but these are far fewer than they should be. This exasperate the problem as those who are not fans of fan service type stuff have a much smaller pool to pull from than they should. Thus pushing away those looking for a lower sexed up experience

The industry responds to people being vocal and amplified, arguing (not forcing) that the status quo is problematic

 

[pakkit]

We're not really disagreeing. I'm trying to get away from this awful GG/KKK equivocation. The analogy is bad because the analogy is bad.

Trying to follow that model in the case of GG would not mean trying to have serious conversations with people who remain in the movement. A similar tack here would be to get the judicial system to actually enforce penalties for the ongoing harassment, which might open up opportunities for conversation.

This is being talked about in the Congress thread. My worry here is that Congress knows jack shit about videogames (as they've proven time and time again), and I cannot shake this fear that they'll try to shoehorn anti-bullying legeslation in with their latest iteration of SOPA or whatever anti-net neutrality bill they introduce.

They don't have the history or membership of the KKK, but GG is very much a fledgling hate group. I think it makes some people uncomfortable to consider that because we share an interest in something, but admitting there are unsavory aspects of the gaming community as a whole is a step toward improving the situation all around.

Nor do they burn crosses, nor do they link themselves to religious imagery, nor are they based around racial purity, nor do they meet in congregations and kidnap, torture, and kill black people. I think you'll find that the differences in this type of analogy far outweigh the similarities. If you said something like, GG is similar to r/TheRedPill, I'd agree. They're both internet groups that promote anti-feminist viewpoints and can potentially lead to misogynistic behavior.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

We're not really disagreeing. I'm trying to get away from this awful GG/KKK equivocation.

They don't have the history or membership of the KKK, but GG is very much a fledgling hate group. I think it makes some people uncomfortable to consider that because we share an interest in something, but admitting there are unsavory aspects of the gaming community as a whole is a step toward improving the situation all around.