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Anita Sarkeesian: 'What I Couldn't Say'

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Oh no.

Oh boy.

There's forcing and there's argument. The industry responds to people being vocal and amplified, arguing (not forcing) that the status quo is problematic

You never post counter arguments to anything. You just make witty replies. As for the science of men in general being more visual if that's your issue



http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/808430

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/03/040316072953.htm

Women in all known tests respond less to visual stimuli. Now some theories suggest maybe different methods of visual stimuli would help they would also require more to them then just the base act of sex for a similar response.

At a basic level men react to visual stimuli more strongly
 
This is a bad analogy. Civil rights legislation came through not because hardcore racists were convinced that their hatred was illogical, but by turning people who considered themselves moderate on the issues. The hardcore racists had their best tools for institutional prejudice taken away from them (often via the courts and not via legislation), which gave more room for a conversation, and through those conversations, those hardcore racists became ostracized as more and more of society was dissuaded from taking their positions as something reasonable.

Trying to follow that model in the case of GG would not mean trying to have serious conversations with people who remain in the movement. A similar tack here would be to get the judicial system to actually enforce penalties for the ongoing harassment, which might open up opportunities for conversation.

Well, that, or cause another spark of outrage in GG, whose actions are basically the best PR you could have to help defeat them.

This is a really good post.
 
Nor do they burn crosses, nor do they link themselves to religious imagery, nor are they based around racial purity, nor do they meet in congregations and kidnap, torture, and kill black people. I think you'll find that the differences in this type of analogy far outweigh the similarities. If you said something like, GG is similar to r/TheRedPill, I'd agree. They're both internet groups that promote anti-feminist viewpoints and can potentially lead to misogynistic behavior.

They are different only in a matter of degree. Gamergate has sent death threats, had threatened to cause a school shooting, called SWAT on people, harrassed people to the point that they needed to get police protection.
 
Fledgling. These are different times and there are different methods.

It's ok to be scared though

If you are referring to visual stimuli again it's fine to disagree but what is your over all reasoning.

You realize all the data and evidence and analysis that I'm bringing in here has done nothing but prop up the Feminism side of this argument
 
If you are referring to visual stimuli again it's fine to disagree but what is your over all reasoning.

You realize all the data and evidence and analysis that I'm bringing in here has done nothing but prop up the Feminism side of this argument

I wasn't responding to you dude

not getting involved with the sex thing lol
 
Meh. The internet will get to you. I don't get it. I've never called a woman names or my friends never did that playing video games. Huh, maybe I hang around men that have respect.
 
We're not really disagreeing. I'm trying to get away from this awful GG/KKK equivocation. The analogy is bad because the analogy is bad.



This is being talked about in the Congress thread. My worry here is that Congress knows jack shit about videogames (as they've proven time and time again), and I cannot shake this fear that they'll try to shoehorn anti-bullying legeslation in with their latest iteration of SOPA or whatever anti-net neutrality bill they introduce.


Nor do they burn crosses, nor do they link themselves to religious imagery, nor are they based around racial purity, nor do they meet in congregations and kidnap, torture, and kill black people. I think you'll find that the differences in this type of analogy far outweigh the similarities. If you said something like, GG is similar to r/TheRedPill, I'd agree. They're both internet groups that promote anti-feminist viewpoints and can potentially lead to misogynistic behavior.

What would you classify an organization that has ties to known attempts to get trans people to kill themselves? Specifically, multiple instances of it, one instance where GGers were told to befriend trans people on tumblr in order to convince them to kill themselves, and another where GGers would call into trans suicide hotlines in order to make it harder for trans people to get support? Would you mind elaborating upon why this is a better thing to do than to burn crosses?
 
Meh. The internet will get to you. I don't get it. I've never called a woman names or my friends never did that playing video games. Huh, maybe I hang around men that have respect.

Things like swatting aren't just trolling on the internet. A dog was killed and I wouldn't be surprised if one these times a person is.
 
What would you classify an organization that has ties to known attempts to get trans people to kill themselves? Specifically, multiple instances of it, one instance where GGers were told to befriend trans people on tumblr in order to convince them to kill themselves, and another where GGers would call into trans suicide hotlines in order to make it harder for trans people to get support? Would you mind elaborating upon why this is a better thing to do than to burn crosses?

Wait what? Jesus fucking christ, was this really happening?
 
The main problem with comparing GG to the KKK is the former still has members who're young, apolitical and/or simply clueless enough to still not pick up on the political undercurrents behind many of the big names they're following and genuinely see any attempt to shed light on that as a SJW-tactic to deflect the conversation while the latter is openly proud of its racism and doesn't have any desire to hind behind anything in the first place.
 
Wait what? Jesus fucking christ, was this really happening?

Huge TW:

https://www.anonimg.com/img/c5bc75d9d913da27d6ce4c2f6b805bcb.jpeg

.

The main problem with comparing GG to the KKK is the former still has members who're young, apolitical and/or simply clueless enough to still not pick up on the political undercurrents behind many of the big names they're following and genuinely see any attempt to shed light on that as a SJW-tactic to deflect the conversation while the latter is openly proud of its racism and doesn't have any desire to hind behind anything in the first place.

Let's not kid ourselves, these young people are reveling in it. Except instead of racism (but there is a LOT of racism, don't be fooled), they're incredibly transphobic. It's all the time for them.

To me, it's jut like when those SAE kids got expelled for chanting the n-word. It's foolhardy to think that they're just misguided, or whatever.
 

Pretty sure that's /pol/, not the GG board. Note the frequent use of "degenerate", and the lack of any gaming terms or images. /pol/ had a big part in GG, but not everyone in GG is in /pol/ or agrees with their tinfoil worldview. It's disingenuous (not to mention needlessly discouraging and depressing for trans people) to say that GG is anti-trans.
 
Would you like me to get a Storify link containing many tweets wherein GamerGaters on Twitter flooded both the #TransWomenAreWomen and #TransMenAreMen hashtags with pornography?

I'm sure trans people are super stoked that you're coming to GG's defense, and I'm sure they're super miffed that I'm accusing GG of doing shit that it did. Thanks for speaking for trans people there, champ.
 
How many more times are we going to do this song and dance?
Harassment sucks.
And this swirling vortex of victim pageantry is getting very, very old for me.
 
Aw heck, I'll just start collecting further examples of GG's involvement in this kind of transphobic shit.

Trigger Warnings for everything

http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/11/23/gamergate-plays-good-cop-viciously-transphobic-cop/
https://storify.com/stillgray/matt-binder-nails-gamergate-based-lawyer-mike-cern
https://storify.com/sadcrow/gamergate-crashes-trans-friendly-hashtag

I could get more if you like

How many more times are we going to do this song and dance?
Harassment sucks.
And this swirling vortex of victim pageantry is getting very, very old for me.

No one's making you post in this thread.
 
The things one has to live with because of video games.

Because of video games.

Jesus, Gators. You are pathetic. Get a life. One of your own, please.
 
How many more times are we going to do this song and dance?
Harassment sucks.
And this swirling vortex of victim pageantry is getting very, very old for me.

You know what really sucks?

Wanting to make/play/talk about video games, but being afraid to do so because of your gender. Then people telling you that you aren't really afraid, you are just doing it for the attention.
 
Solid post but I think it rises from a couple things

1. Men are much more visual when it comes to sex. It really is true, and certainly it's not the ONLY factor and not all men are that way. But your average man is very visual when it comes to sexual arousal. Women of course can be as well however.
2. I have no issues at all with someone saying they don't like "fan service" type stuff in games. My problem comes up when people try to force that opinion on other. If you like sexy stuff in games that is not wrong. At all.
3. The problem is with the industry. How many great representation is there of women? Not much. Ellie in The Last of Us is an excellent example but these are far fewer than they should be. This exasperate the problem as those who are not fans of fan service type stuff have a much smaller pool to pull from than they should. Thus pushing away those looking for a lower sexed up experience
4. You are 100% correct the LGBT community is not catered to enough. There's some great ones though like Gone Home. I'm a straight guy and I even found it incredibly moving.


Honestly what we need far and away more than anything is stronger story tellers.

This is kind of going off topic, so I'll try to be brief, but I do think there is overall overlap to the general topic at hand.

1. I'm a little uncomfortable with how absolute this feels. I actually think women can be very visual, just with a focus on different parts of anatomy than men. The male gaze is centered on already sexualized or erogenous zones. Obviously women can be just as interested in these, but in my experience female sexuality includes eroticizing the seemingly "mundane" aspects of anatomy. Shoulders. Lower back. Arms. (These are often true of queer women as well.) Women are, as a general rule, at least somewhat cerebral in expressions of sexuality. It's why foreplay is important.

I also feel like there is a difference in how men and women often feel comfortable experiencing their sexuality in more "mainstream" or public settings because of expectation and experience. Women are very visual when they choose to sit down and watch porn or even go to see a film where the express intent is that kind of fan service. But casually inserting objectification of men into an otherwise standard film doesn't happen as often in mainstream media the way that it does with women. Female bodies on display is so standardized at this point, it's not seen as anything exceptional for a man to watch and engage with it. Women, on the other hand, are taught to repress these more overt sexual responses in a public space.

When we say that (presumably cis) men respond more to visual stimulation, I do wonder how much is culture and how much is pure biology. (Or, again: how much of that is from our own understanding of what qualifies as an expression of sexuality.)

2. I think fan service is really only a problem in that we currently live in a world where female bodies are quite literally objectified or treated as commodities by some people. Reinforcing this through repetition throughout media is worrying. It's why it's good to discuss when things are problematic. Obviously we can all enjoy things we realize are "wrong." That's a common aspect of fantasy. The importance is in understanding that it is only intended as fantasy. A person should be able to acknowledge where the things they like are kind of sketchy, were they real, and still feel free to enjoy them.

And basically just agreed on 3 and 4.

To be clear, I am largely concerned with the repeated idea that the "problem" might easily be solved by objectifying men in the same way that women are objectified. This assumes that sexuality exists in a binary and that all people experience sexuality the same way. For example, in the Women Characters Redesigned by Women SFF Artists there was a brief tangent on how disappointing it is that there was nothing sexually appealing about the women in Dragon Age: Inquisition. While I obviously can't speak for an entire group of people, every queer woman I know who played the game would strongly disagree.
 
No one's making you post in this thread.
This is just another way of saying, "Shut up."
Fixed that for you.
I didn't blame anyone for anything. I'm expressing exasperation. This stuff seems so inescapable, all of it, from every angle.
You know what really sucks?

Wanting to make/play/talk about video games, but being afraid to do so because of your gender. Then people telling you that you aren't really afraid, you are just doing it for the attention.
That would be unfortunate, if someone said that.
I guess we stop when people stop threatening to rape and kill women based on their opinion of a computer game.
You're not harassing or being harassed, right? So...I mean, there's nothing for you to stop doing.
 
This is just another way of saying, "Shut up."

Or, maybe, "you don't like the subject, don't post."

You're not harassing or being harassed, right? So...I mean, there's nothing for you to stop doing.

How in the world do you know? I've been bothered a fair bit by GGers in the past, so I'll thank you to not just decide who has the authority to care about this hate group.
 
This is just another way of saying, "Shut up."

I didn't blame anyone for anything. I'm expressing exasperation. This stuff seems so inescapable, all of it, from every angle.

That would be unfortunate, if someone said that.

If I read "victim pageantry" wrong, then I apologize. But it sounded like you were saying Anita is benefiting from her harassment, which is idiotic.
 
If I read "victim pageantry" wrong, then I apologize. But it sounded like you were saying Anita is benefiting from her harassment, which is idiotic.
I wasn't. I don't care what she "benefits" from.
Hate groups are the people behind the harassment, so...

Hey, did it occur to you that you could reply to anyone in this thread and the point would still stand, that you have no idea the truthfulness of what you say of them?
I was responding to toythatkills, that there was nothing for him/her to "stop doing" unless he/she was a harasser/harassee. At no point were you the topic of that sentence, even implicitly or tangentially.
There's no "if" here. Gamergaters have been saying she's been faking abuse or doing this for attention since the beginning. It is happening and it is unfortunate. Although personally I think appalling is a better word.
Paper Sparrow was implying that I said that she was "just doing it for the attention." I didn't. Fun fact: I'm not a hashtag. I don't even post on Twitter, thank Christ.
 
I don't know how better to make this clear: you have no knowledge of who was harassed in this thread, and have yet come to the conclusion that that specific user has. Can you elaborate what made you think the user never experienced harassment?
 
I wasn't. I don't care what she "benefits" from.

I was responding to toythatkills, that there was nothing for him/her to "stop doing" unless he/she was a harasser/harassee. At no point were you the topic of that sentence, even implicitly or tangentially.

Your argument is that because I'm not threatening to rape Anita Sarkeesian, I should just sit back and watch while other people threaten to rape her? We should all pretend it's not happening so she can just get threatened in private unless we're the ones threatening her?

That's your argument? Seriously, I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here.
 
I didn't blame anyone for anything. I'm expressing exasperation. This stuff seems so inescapable, all of it, from every angle.

You're expressing exasperation over a discussion about a real problem that nobody has required you to join.

Nobody likes reading about this shit. This isn't just about "victim pageantry", it's a thing that's real.
 
I wasn't. I don't care what she "benefits" from.

I was responding to toythatkills, that there was nothing for him/her to "stop doing" unless he/she was a harasser/harassee. At no point were you the topic of that sentence, even implicitly or tangentially.

Paper Sparrow was implying that I said that she was "just doing it for the attention." I didn't. Fun fact: I'm not a hashtag. I don't even post on Twitter, thank Christ.

It would be far easier to believe that you're not in this thread just to shit it up if you didn't respond to everyone in extreme hostility.
 
I wasn't. I don't care what she "benefits" from.

I was responding to toythatkills, that there was nothing for him/her to "stop doing" unless he/she was a harasser/harassee. At no point were you the topic of that sentence, even implicitly or tangentially.

Paper Sparrow was implying that I said that she was "just doing it for the attention." I didn't.

Then I'm sorry for implying that. The sentence "And this swirling vortex of victim pageantry is getting very, very old for me." sounded like it was heading that way to me.

It's a feeling commonly expressed in these threads.

Though now I'm wondering what exactly you meant by that sentence, can you clarify that for me?
 
Paper Sparrow was implying that I said that she was "just doing it for the attention." I didn't. Fun fact: I'm not a hashtag. I don't even post on Twitter, thank Christ.

Do us all a favour and define "Victim Pageantry" and how it relates to things that Anita Sarkeesian has done or said.

It seems to me that your definition of the term is important here.
 
Your argument is that because I'm not threatening to rape Anita Sarkeesian, I should just sit back and watch while other people threaten to rape her?
No. I was expressing my exasperation with the ubiquity of this seven-month-long shitshow. You said, "I'm not going to stop." But you're not responsible for the shitshow (I assume). That was the entirety of what I was saying.[/QUOTE]
You're expressing exasperation over a discussion about a real problem that nobody has required you to join.
My exasperation isn't with this thread. It's with the incredible duration and volume of this entire controversy, this whole macroscopic situation. It's inescapable.
Nobody likes reading about this shit. This isn't just about "victim pageantry", it's a thing that's real.
I don't know. I think some people must, on both "sides." Why would this be such a long-term thing otherwise?
It would be far easier to believe that you're not in this thread just to shit it up if you didn't respond to everyone in extreme hostility.
Cuff me, tone cop.
 
No. I was expressing my exasperation with the ubiquity of this seven-month-long shitshow. You said, "I'm not going to stop." But you're not responsible for the shitshow (I assume). That was the entirety of what I was saying.

I guess everyone's misunderstood you then, you really didn't pick your words very carefully.
 
You talk about this being inescapable for you, and then your next thing you say is to assume that instead of people who are actually being targeted with death threats also finding it inescapable, you assume that it's just enjoyable for them.

No, the discussion doesn't exist because of enjoyment, it exists because these dangerous harassers are still active and still dangerous.
 
While victim pageantry doesn't seem to be a big term (9 results counting NeoGAF), the other actual use was to describe "modern day feminism" so I'll just assume... GamerGater? :v
 
I always though that the morons reaction against Sarkeesian is 'cause looks like all the problem is about videogames, like all the media blame videogames for being or inciting violence when movies, music, manga, anime and even news do the same and aren't attacked like videogames are for doing the same things with violence or sexism
 
While victim pageantry doesn't seem to be a big term (9 results counting NeoGAF), the other actual use was to describe "modern day feminism" so I'll just assume... GamerGater? :v
Yeah I had never heard the term either and was trying to find out whether or not it was "a thing." Which it doesn't seem to be. Ugh. I wonder how many new dumb terms have been created in order for people to avoid sounding like they're in support of something as awful as GamerGate. Which is weird, given the profound pride some seem to take in being a part of it.

LUKE 17:3: "Take heed... If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

If you support it, that's fine, but expect some pretty harsh judgment from those who don't, given the association of terribleness that is GamerGate.
 
Yeah I had never heard the term either and was trying to find out whether or not it was "a thing." Which it doesn't seem to be. Ugh. I wonder how many new dumb terms have been created in order for people to avoid sounding like they're in support of something as awful as GamerGate. Which is weird, given the profound pride some seem to take in being a part of it.

LUKE 17:3: "Take heed... If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

If you support it, that's fine, but expect some pretty harsh judgment from those who don't, given the association of terribleness that is GamerGate.

Bible reference... now I've seen all and enough.
 
Bible reference... now I've seen all and enough.
As an atheist, I see a great deal of wisdom in Biblical texts. Though I also see a great deal of wisdom in many religious texts. I'm simply most familiar with the Bible due to being raised Catholic.
 
I see the same people in these threads every time they pop up, I'm not sure you people do it. I last a few pages before I have to disengage because it just becomes so overwhelming.
 
Well, because you're no longer here to give us your personal definition of "Victim pageantry", let's use google's definition.

Pageantry is defined as a show or display.

So victim pageantry is making a show of being a victim, which is what you're accusing Anita of doing. The alternative of course, is being silent about her daily harassment.

If you don't see the problem with this, then it doesn't matter whether you align yourself with a hashtag or not, you're displaying an all too common disregard for human decency.

She isn't making a show of her victimhood. She is not benefitting. She is a victim.

And even if you meant pageantry in a more benign sense, as in "Not simply being silent about it", you're saying you're tired of hearing about an abused person speaking out about her abuse.
 
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