toythatkills
Member
That could apply to anything, really. There's probably wisdom in 50 Shades of Grey if you just cherry-pick one line away from the context of everything else.
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Anita Sarkeesian: 'What I Couldn't Say'
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That could apply to anything, really. There's probably wisdom in 50 Shades of Grey if you just cherry-pick one line away from the context of everything else.
That feel when you wish you could just.... somehow step up and smack these harassing sons of bitches in the fucking face.
No one should have to live like that for daring to have an opinion.
what the holy mother of all fucks am I reading
No one should have to live like that for daring to have an opinion.
what the holy mother of all fucks am I reading
There are more than a few passages in the Bible (and other religious texts) demonstrating the same tenet in as many words. But mentioning all of them would fill multiple pages and thus doesn't really contribute to the conversation. I doubt the same could be said of 50 Shades of Grey (or other books generally outside of Philosophy and Religion). Yes, it's moralism but much of the discourse around GamerGate is about moralism. The purpose of the statement was to encourage discussion but also realize support of certain ideas comes with consequence.
With just some adjustments to her tendency of negative generalization and somewhat combatant rhetoric I think she could've gotten "everyone" to join her side. I don't think she is that kind of self-aware though, and it's perhaps too late, which is a real shame because her cause is at the bottom a really good one.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
.... at the bottom?
That's her entire cause. Women representation is her entire cause.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
A lot of her points are more or less a dramatic reading of TVTropes entries for games that have probably been online for eons before TvsG even existed with little to no drama. While I agree she can be overly negative, seeing other YouTube personalities make a living off going far more full-blast on various games/movies/shows/whatever without the same levels of hate makes things look incredibly disproportionate disproportionate to what she's saying.
Lol, people who are willing to send death and rape threat, and harass to that extent, aren't one hair removed to seeing another person's position.
That's the key thing about this whole debacle, as well as the GG thing.
I don't give a shit what you think about sexualization in games media, or what you think about ethics in games journalism, since this is the route this whole discussion has taken (and in the case of GamerGate, it actually started from a ridiculous premise to begin with), everything else is very much secondary.
The benefit of a civilized debate was thrown out the window, when people stopped acting civilized.
That's why, regardless of what you think about the issue at heart, if you have some brain you should just disassociate with shit like GG first and foremost.
Shuggananas
Banned
Thought the opening line was cheap.
Agree on what she's saying otherwise.
Agree on what she's saying otherwise.
civilstrife
Member
Or you know, maybe her tone isn't the problem.
Handling rampant misogyny with kid gloves is not a solution.
I understand you're trying to look at this dispassionately but you should know that tone policing is a way of diverting blame. "If only she had said it differently" does her work a disservice and underplays the vitriol and callousness of her abusers. These people would not have reacted any differently if she had wrapped her views in a non-confrontational bow.
This is also kind of the thing I'm talking about..Just because I didn't arrange my words perfectly (perhaps because english isn't my native language, maybe becausr I'm posting from my phone..) there's an odd strong reaction that i can't reall fathom..
..Instead of f.ex. just acknowledging that I'm, at the bottom.. on your side.
"combative"
Trickster
Member
Isn't that what he's saying though? Just that her way of representing that cause is also part of why she get's the backlash that she gets.
I completely agree with what she is saying as far as abuse women suffer online. But my question is and i really want to know this , is the abuse towards women stronger than towards any other sect (eg, homosexuals, other races, other countries, transgenders). Essentially the question I'm asking is . Is this a general more widespread problem of people attacking others due to anonymity/their (not mine at all) interpretation of gaming culture/immaturity etc or just particularly directed towards women?
And im sure women being in general not a majority of mainstream gamers plays a factor. But I'm just wondering how much of this is people who are just not nice in general. you know the type who would say horrbile things anyway if it werent women, then racism if not that then sexuality etc... its just bad seeds in the community maybe? Possibly we have too many of them but is the directionality towards women a symptom or a cause?
EDIT: and the reason i bring this up is in other unrelated threads ppl have brought this topic up and anita has her views in gaming and no gaming related things but in other areas she doesnt get attacked as often. Quite frankly if you did half an analysis of hollywood summer movies, women have similarly bad/one dimentional treatment (transformers hello) except for some reason those mediums have a more "normal" reaction. so I think this is more to do with the gaming community just being (not everyone, i'm stressing this again . not everyone or even the majority but some bad seeds) just horribly reactive.
And im sure women being in general not a majority of mainstream gamers plays a factor. But I'm just wondering how much of this is people who are just not nice in general. you know the type who would say horrbile things anyway if it werent women, then racism if not that then sexuality etc... its just bad seeds in the community maybe? Possibly we have too many of them but is the directionality towards women a symptom or a cause?
EDIT: and the reason i bring this up is in other unrelated threads ppl have brought this topic up and anita has her views in gaming and no gaming related things but in other areas she doesnt get attacked as often. Quite frankly if you did half an analysis of hollywood summer movies, women have similarly bad/one dimentional treatment (transformers hello) except for some reason those mediums have a more "normal" reaction. so I think this is more to do with the gaming community just being (not everyone, i'm stressing this again . not everyone or even the majority but some bad seeds) just horribly reactive.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Believe me, it has nothing to do with it.
Did you hear they are making an all-female Ghostbusters?
Neoriceisgood
Member
General research on harassment seems to indicate that in online spheres women have it worse than men if you don't account for other variables.
(the only study I've seen that has more male harassment compared Piers fucking Morgan to people like J.K Rowling .. I think you can see the issue there.)
When it comes to stuff like race/homosexuality/transgender people you get the iffy situation of how those factors combine with gender.
(e.g. treatment of black women compared to white women or black men); I'm not sure if there's any particular studies regarding harassment on this but the general trend seems to be (female + transgender/racial minority = even worse treatment than someone who only belongs to one of those groups)
I'm sure someone else on here can provide actual research data on this though, I don't have any links ready at the moment.
Since we're talking about the abuse women get online, a look into what posting book reviews with almost no views on youtube will get you:
(Warning for all kinds of things)
http://i.imgur.com/NlrCIz8.jpg
From the literature board.
(Warning for all kinds of things)
http://i.imgur.com/NlrCIz8.jpg
From the literature board.
Neoriceisgood
Member
There's an important lesson to be learned here, which may apply to gamergaters, misogynists and bigots in video game culture (and online).
DICKS AHOY
Banned
This does remind me that /co/ for a good year or so had Natasha Allegri (worked on AT and created Bee & Puppycake) pop in now and then and do requests in AT generals and drawthreads which went surprisingly well... buuuuuuuut eventually got pissed off and left when a few shitposters made it their mission to keep requesting stupid gross shit you shouldn't keep badgering a notable artist working on a popular show if you want them to stick around.
Same thing could easily happen to a male artist, but I think it's far easier to go straight for the proverbial jugular when it's a woman on a 'chan board and you're trying to intimidate them for whatever reason, and this was back when /co/'s reputation was relatively good in comparison to most other boards outside of 4chan.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Trickster
Member
Given that there are plenty of people who dislike Anita exactly because of how she's choosen to go about fighting/talking about the issues she talks about, I would say you are wrong in saying it has nothing to do with it.
However obviously plenty of people are being vile assholes towards her because they are assholes and worse.
You really think everyone that visits 4chan are like the subset people who post dumb shit there?
SliceSabre
Banned
Its seems strange to me to post something from 4chan as evidence.
Like I'm black, why would I go to a KKK website, 4chan's /pol/ board or white supremacist website and take a screenshot of what they're saying about blacks on the forum as proof of something? I mean its 4chan, are you really surprised people are saying vile shit there?
Alex
Member
People love to make the case that the video game board over there is better.
It isn't.
Shuggananas
Banned
Yeah 4chan is full of morons, being anonymous allows them to spout bullshit.
vg is decent.
No but I was talking about specific friends. I know that THEY do talk like that while on 4chan, and it pisses me off because they think it doesn't hurt anyone.
Trickster
Member
Ah, yeah then I get why it pisses you off.
Yeah sorry I don't know why I threw the word "probably" in there, when I know for a fact that they do. They tried to get me to read /co/ for comicbook discussion but I didn't like what I saw there.
There are a lot of people giving examples of sexualised men as if this is something that makes feminism in games or in general moot
Men can and often are sexualised, and often in order to sell to a product, or to appease woman, this is true
But the scale in which this happens to women is staggering when compared to men, to highlight a few examples of the reverse and claim its the same for both sides, would be like saying racism doesn't exist because the president of America is black
Its an argument you can only make by being either disingenuous or ignorant, Magic Mike doesn't make up for decades and decades of women being used as nothing but eye candy
Men can and often are sexualised, and often in order to sell to a product, or to appease woman, this is true
But the scale in which this happens to women is staggering when compared to men, to highlight a few examples of the reverse and claim its the same for both sides, would be like saying racism doesn't exist because the president of America is black
Its an argument you can only make by being either disingenuous or ignorant, Magic Mike doesn't make up for decades and decades of women being used as nothing but eye candy
My partner wrote the following after viewing the video and reading the "Read the comments" section i showed her:
"The comments here are why I play very few games online
The comments here are why I search carefully for Guilds which will not tolerate abuse of women (also LGBT/ race etc)
The comments here are why men think it is OK when I use my mic in a Raid that is not with Guildies to:
Threaten to rape me when I do too well
Threaten to rape me when I make a mistake
Ask me if I am single within 1 minute of finding out I am female
Kick me off Raid groups when they hear I am female
Add me as a friend and start PMing me constantly when they hear I am female
Tell me women cannot play Tanks and are terrible at DPS, they should all be Healers.
All of these, and so much more has happened.
The comments are actually one of the most important parts of this page.
And every man who plays online games can do something about it when they see it happening.
Every man who does not think this is OK can speak up and help put a stop to this - if you see it happen and are silent, you are complicit in it. I have had private PMs saying "Sorry about my friends, but they don't get to speak to many girls you see" - like it's my fault. Don't do that, tell your friends to stop harassing women, not women to stop being women where they can be harassed.
You don't have to yell at them - tell them not to be an arse, not to be that guy, to stop. Because it is not worse to call your friend a misogynist than it is for them to be one"
"The comments here are why I play very few games online
The comments here are why I search carefully for Guilds which will not tolerate abuse of women (also LGBT/ race etc)
The comments here are why men think it is OK when I use my mic in a Raid that is not with Guildies to:
Threaten to rape me when I do too well
Threaten to rape me when I make a mistake
Ask me if I am single within 1 minute of finding out I am female
Kick me off Raid groups when they hear I am female
Add me as a friend and start PMing me constantly when they hear I am female
Tell me women cannot play Tanks and are terrible at DPS, they should all be Healers.
All of these, and so much more has happened.
The comments are actually one of the most important parts of this page.
And every man who plays online games can do something about it when they see it happening.
Every man who does not think this is OK can speak up and help put a stop to this - if you see it happen and are silent, you are complicit in it. I have had private PMs saying "Sorry about my friends, but they don't get to speak to many girls you see" - like it's my fault. Don't do that, tell your friends to stop harassing women, not women to stop being women where they can be harassed.
You don't have to yell at them - tell them not to be an arse, not to be that guy, to stop. Because it is not worse to call your friend a misogynist than it is for them to be one"
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
To be fair, Anita has never intended for her "academic" activity to be bidirectional. The way
she dealt with the Bayonetta situation is an example. Like a lot of people, she uses the internet but is ignorant about how the internet works. She did however open a can of worms that needed to be opened.
But the conversation about the merits or demerits of her analysis is now irrelevant. It's all about the harrassment now. It's become a black or white situation - either you are with her or you are with the harrassers, there's no middle ground left.
No, it's not. I've seen the absolute nicest person on Twitter, who remained calm and polite to the bitter end, get harassed endlessly for months to the point of having to leave Twitter.
It's intuitive that "being nicer" would prevent harassment but it turns out it doesn't, at all.
FF Seraphim
Member
This just isn't true, but nitpicking her analysis, or pointing out how a few of her examples are weaker than others, or in context make more sense, doesn't stop the fact that her general point is correct, unless you don't believe there is an issue with how women are represented and treated in video games and gaming culture
That doesn't magically go away because she gave one example that doesn't quite align with the subject title of one of her videos
The entire reason this has blown up, or that the narrative has shifted towards the level of harassment and abuse she has suffered, is pretty much more evidence that there is an issue with how woman are represented and treated in the gaming space, you can't make a solid case for Peach not being a damsel and then change that fact
Trickster
Member
I'm not saying that if she changed her tone or way of presenting her views, that it would completely stop the dislike, hate or harassment she receives. It's obvious that would still continue no matter what simply because of what she's talking about.
But a part of it, however much or little that may be, stems from how she presents her views and cause.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The fact you're trying to bait me proves that it's become a black and white issue and that the merits or demerits of her analysis have become irrelevant.
No, it's not. Sorry, but it's simply not true. Her presentation is fairly mild as it is. It would be almost impossible to tone it down any. And yet she is met with death threats for even raising the subject.
More_Badass
Member
We had a thread about Anita's views and hopes for games. The vast majority agreed that they was extemely reasonable and uncontroversial.
What's the problem with how she presents her views?
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Can you please clarify the bolded?
On a side note, not at you directly, but when has she ever been anything remotely combatant? Or even agressive. It's funny how so often those complaining about tone or niceness do so much harsher than anything she says.
Agreed 100% if you by "how", you mean, female.
It's interesting you'd say that because she mentions in this video how the style of her other videos changed.
I get the feeling there's no right answer for some people
I'm not trying to bait you
But you listing off a dozen examples of her being "wrong" in her videos does not undermine the point that there is an issue with how women are treated in the gaming arena
The non stop torrent of hate and rape threats is proof of that, if you don't like her or her videos or even her arguments, that's fine, but you can't argue that gaming is a fun place to be for women without being ignorant at best, disingenuous at worst
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