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Anita Sarkeesian: 'What I Couldn't Say'

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Freshmaker

I am Korean.
I want to believe this, but man, how come we don't have FilmGate or BookGate as a result of critics?

You haven't looked.

Also, I'd suggest that this is only loosely related to criticism. This is a marginalized group (by their own perception at least) that's looking to gain a voice however they can.

This behavior is hardly new. A woman didn't want her kids subjected to public prayer in a school in the south. Other parents in the community took up calling her with death threats threatening her children, trying to force her to leave the community etc.

That's not a result of them reading the Bible too much. That's a result of a group dynamic fostering a hysterical chain reaction.
 

foltzie1

Member
ANd they continue to do it, because they are never confronted about it, because of attitudes like this.

'Im just one person' 'nothing I do matters' 'Theyll keep doing it anyway, and If i get involved then I might have to deal with them'.

The simple fact of the matter is, if enough people show them that their behavior is unacceptable, if nothing else, the difficulty they encounter in getting their way of abusing their target uncontested is enough of an irritation to make them eventually stop. Ive done it hundreds of times.

And yes, changing the problem will change the symptoms. My generation was NOT like this.

These people are obnoxious, terminally socially clueless, with poor critical problem solving skills, poor reading comprehension, poor deductive reasoning, bad inductive reasoning, morons who believe they are always right no matter how stupid, broken, or disproven their arguments are, who play games that are obnoxious, socially clueless, that require no critical problem solving, no reading comprehension, no deductive reasoning, stupid inductive reasoning, and always win no matter how bad or stupid they play, and are constantly told how great and awesome they are extrinsically by being given constant trophies and achievements, for doing and accomplishing nothing.

Its not a coincidence.

I dont know what "generation" you are from, but stupid is neither new or novel, the movie Selma is not a fictional account about some state that used to really believe in segregation.

Nevertheless, it is correct that challenging norms is the best way to change norms.

Still, fighting the good fight against a documented group is tough enough, doing so against an anonymous horde is tricky at best.
 
I for one am more than happy to dole out "fuck you"s on Anita's behalf.


I mean, I realize that isn't actually the point of what she's saying in this video. But still.
 

commedieu

Banned
No, do not avoid the comments.

Look at them.

Look at them.

This is what the current state of our hobby has bred. This is the new generation that represents our hobby, formed by the media they consumed.

Look at them.

You want to change this, stop supporting what creates them. And actively rebuke it, and them.

Do not cover your eyes and ignore it. Anita sure as hell doesnt have that luxery.

+1
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
At this point "SJW" is on the same level as "Faggot", an insult that has lost it's original meaning and is pretty much worthless as a catch all insult. In Gamergate's eyes, anyone who disagrees with them is a "SJW", a term formally used for overbearing feminists which is now used for anyone who thinks sending death threats, doxxing and trying to force people out of their career is a bad thing.

I dont even see SJW as an insult. I get a kick out of people attempting to insult with a term that has "social justice" in the name. Its like they are insulting themselves.
 
You haven't looked.

Also, I'd suggest that this is only loosely related to criticism. This is a marginalized group (by their own perception at least) that's looking to gain a voice however they can.

This behavior is hardly new. A woman didn't want her kids subjected to public prayer in a school in the south. Other parents in the community took up calling her with death threats threatening her children, trying to force her to leave the community etc.

That's not a result of them reading the Bible too much. That's a result of a group dynamic fostering a hysterical chain reaction.

I'd also argue that other genres went through their growing pains outside the age of social and instant connectivity. The misguided and foolish have always been with us; the difference is that now it's far easier to be seen.
 

Sephzilla

Member
No, do not avoid the comments.

Look at them.

Look at them.

This is what the current state of our hobby has bred. This is the new generation that represents our hobby, formed by the media they consumed.

Look at them.

You want to change this, stop supporting what creates them. And actively rebuke it, and them.

Do not cover your eyes and ignore it. Anita sure as hell doesnt have that luxery.

Not that i'm trying to justify it, but I don't think ugly horrible Youtube comments are a thing that's exclusive to our hobby. Youtube is one of those places where I never read comments for anything anymore.
 
I'm at a loss as to what could ever stop it.

You know, when this whole thing started I thought "eh, it'll just go away" and I'm ashamed for having felt that way. I should have been more vocal. I should have joined those who tried to drown the hate and bullshit and harassment and vitriol... but I honestly don't know with what. That is not to say that there is no solution to this, just that I am not a smart or focused enough person to find a solution to this issue.

Should the big Publishers be involved in this? I think so, definitely. EA, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Ubisoft, etc, they should all present an open letter to gamers about this kind of behavior. Will that be enough? I don't think so, but it'll probably turn a few heads and some more people will know that this is not right. Twitter, Facebook, etc should start cracking down with better moderation, I think.

It's sad, really, and I feel bad that I just decided to shrug at the issue and think "it'll just go away". I mean, I've always been appalled at the type of stuff you can find in comments and the hate and vitriol people can anonymously (or not so anonymously) spew with the utmost lack of regard for the well-being of a fellow human, but I never figured this stuff would continue to escalate. It's sad, really.
 

finalexit

Member
What's Anita's opinion on porn and prostitution, is that known? Because some feminists show real strong hate against women in the sex industry, while others are rather supportive of their issues.

Judging by this she seems to be really into vampire-erotica at the least.

http://i.imgur.com/u7VXuEU.jpg
http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/2eub5g/
http://www.returnofkings.com/42602/did-anita-sarkeesian-fake-death-threats-against-herself

she took this screenshot 12 seconds after the last tweet, and not logged into twitter.
 

Flavius

Member
This is where I get really confused.

What exactly is she exaggerating? What has she said that paints anything in such terms?

I cant seem to find it, I've seen her videos and her statements and have yet to find a point where she makes any such hyperbolic statements about much of anything.

I think people misconstrue her words and feel that they're being labeled as misogynists, or at least, people who act with the intent to enable misogynistic behavior.

The reality is that (obviously) such behavior exists, and I don't think anyone would consider it a huge leap to say that doing nothing...showing indifference...passively enables such behavior.

In other words, she's spot on in regards to that particular point.
 

FourMyle

Member
Pretty amazing the kind of pushback there is for someone who simply wanted better representation of women in their hobby.

Video games were a boys only club for a long time. That kind of environment tends to attract and breed these kinds of people.

Exactly.
 

Overside

Banned
I'd have trouble specifically pointing out what kind of games media turns normal people into misogynistic online death-threat hate machines, it's probably a bigger issue that has to do with online anonimity.

It doesnt turn them into it, Im not saying it turns average joe into a gater, Im talking about what our communtiy has turned into, the generation, not the individual person.

Its been cultivating and pandering to those kinds of people becuase that sense of entitlement can be easily manufactured in people who behave like that and its easy to exploit and monetize in a very predictable fashion.

Since this generation is comprised of the fruits of that labour, thats what our community at large has turned into, as everyone else has been marginalized for the easy to exploit and monetize audience, who is disgustingly obnoxious.

When you bring those kinds of people en masse into a community, it forms a different kind of community. Enter the seventh generation, and here we are.
 
Mostly on-topic, but something Lindsay Ellis (the Nostalgia Chick) wrote popped up on my Twitter feed earlier and it feels really on-point. I'll link it here with one of the passages:
http://www.themarysue.com/dont-read-the-comments/

There is also an increasingly accepted fallacy, a cousin to “don’t read the comments”, if you will, that it’s just “how the Internet is.” That abuse against historically marginalized groups should be accepted, because, hey, everybody is abused equally here (a categorically untrue assessment, but there are many who genuinely believe it.) That in order to earn the right to use the internet one must first bathe in the fires of sexism, racism, or misogyny and come out unscathed, because “that’s how the Internet is” and to brave the Internet is to implicitly accept this agreement. To challenge it is to deny the Internet’s Internet-ness, its infallible status quo.

I also often get variations on this comment: “I’m glad you have such a thick skin and have learned to deal with it. But I couldn’t do that.” They are always from girls. Always.

That is a problem.
 

Sadist

Member
Man, those youtube comments think they're in the right as well. Yikes.

Folks need to lay off on Sarkeesian. Even if you don't agree (hell, I don't even agree on all of her points) reply in a calm and normal fashion and actually discuss it.
 

shiba5

Member
You know, when this whole thing started I thought "eh, it'll just go away" and I'm ashamed for having felt that way. I should have been more vocal. I should have joined those who tried to drown the hate and bullshit and harassment and vitriol... but I honestly don't know with what. That is not to say that there is no solution to this, just that I am not a smart or focused enough person to find a solution to this issue.

Should the big Publishers be involved in this? I think so, definitely. EA, Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, Ubisoft, etc, they should all present an open letter to gamers about this kind of behavior. Will that be enough? I don't think so, but it'll probably turn a few heads and some more people will know that this is not right. Twitter, Facebook, etc should start cracking down with better moderation, I think.

It's sad, really, and I feel bad that I just decided to shrug at the issue and think "it'll just go away". I mean, I've always been appalled at the type of stuff you can find in comments and the hate and vitriol people can anonymously (or not so anonymously) spew with the utmost lack of regard for the well-being of a fellow human, but I never figured this stuff would continue to escalate. It's sad, really.

I don't know if the big devs/publishers speaking up would change anything, but it would certainly make me feel better about supporting the industry. Right now, they just appear complicit, cowed, or too worried about their bottom line.
 

Mman235

Member

VARIA

Member
Don't mean to derail or to beat a dead horse since I haven't followed this issue, but isn't this really an online competitive gaming issue. Men are just as equally brutal to other men and nothing is sacred (Mothers, sexuality, sisters, lifestyle, etc etc.). I'm not defending this behavior, just pointing out (which I'm sure it already has been done) that a large part of online gaming is verbal harassment regardless of sex or gender.

I remember seeing that Street Fighter IV tournament where that geeky kid told the other guy (to his face) something to the effect of "...Someday you're going to want to get the taste of my dick out of your mouth..." People are brutal with each other in online gaming, perhaps better moderation needs to take place so harassment of all kinds is not tolerated.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Man, those youtube comments think they're in the right as well. Yikes.

Folks need to lay off on Sarkeesian. Even if you don't agree (hell, I don't even agree on all of her points) reply in a calm and normal fashion and actually discuss it.

The internet needs more people who think like this
 

Lyte Edge

All I got for the Vernal Equinox was this stupid tag


In the video, Carrera expresses sympathy for the performer and vows to donate the proceeds of her cam shows to her fundraiser, before launching into a diatribe about the lack of mainstream media attention her story has garnered. In her 11-minute clip, she lambasts, among other things, Gamergate critics, the coverage of the UVA rape story, and feminists like Anita Sarkeesian, who she said turn a blind eye to the abuse of sex workers.

“What really fucking bothers me is that for the last two months, I have sat by in Gamergate and watched false faux victims utilize the world for their own personal and profit aims claiming victimhood,” Carrera said in the video, referring in part to Sarkeesian, who she said did not respond to a request to donate to the performer’s fundraising campaign. “Here you have a woman who’s a real victim of a real rape and a real assault and those same women who claim they care about women’s rights have done nothing.”

Carrera also takes aim at modern feminism in general. “This is why I’m so pissed at modern feminists: They claim to care about women, but when there are actually women in need, radio fucking silence. They don’t give a shit about anybody but themselves.”

:|
 

finalexit

Member
Quoting this post to make sure it's supreme awfulness isn't overlooked. Lol returnofkings link.

yeah ignore the other links or just the lone screenshot which she posted to fucking twitter? moron.

of course any link that doesn't agree with your narrative is trash right?
 

slushpupi

Neo Member
When you put yourself in such a 'in-your-face' stance you have to take the good with the bad. It's nice to have people sprinkle your words on their cereal every morning before they head to work. It's horrifying to have your words baked in a cake of feces and crammed down your gullet.

I'm not convinced she believes some of the things she says. I'm not even convinced she didn't initially manufacture hardship for profit.

I AM convinced that we can live in a world where Anita can think and do whatever she wants as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

I AM convinced that death threats or trolling or 'F me?! NO! F you!' is at the very least pointless and cruel and at its worst most likely criminal.

I mean, everything doesn't have to be for everybody, yea? Some things I don't like. Some things that I like you don't. And so what? There is room for many things.

She wants things a certain way in games/media. Those desires in her spark similar desires in others. Let it be so. What does it hurt?

More options. More choices.
 
I am scrolling through the comments on YT and I am not seeing anything that is worth reporting to the FBI. There are mean comments though, but I have seen worse on GAF.
Harrassment doesn't necessarily mean death threats and FBI reports. The daily accumulation of insults adds up in itself.

Let's run a thought experiment:
You make an argument in a post and a lot of people on NeoGAF disagree withit. You log off and come back to your phone or computer an hour later to see your post quoted 500 times in the thread. Among these 500 quotes, 100 are calling you a whore, a fat cunt, a professional victim, a number of unrelated racial epithets.
You PM a mod to complain and they tell you that:
A. Nobody made a death threat.
B. You should answer the 400 other posts because their scrutiny deserves answers.
C. Ignore the mean comments. We won't censor them or ban anyone because that would create a Streisand effect.

Now repeat that for 1000 more days whenever you make a post on GAF.
 
I want to believe this, but man, how come we don't have FilmGate or BookGate as a result of critics?

Eh, we kinda have. I think two well-known critics, who were women, have received death threats and tons of harassment from giving less-than-stellar or bad review scores to popular movies. Pretty sure one of them was a superhero movie.
 
ANd they continue to do it, because they are never confronted about it, because of attitudes like this.

'Im just one person' 'nothing I do matters' 'Theyll keep doing it anyway, and If i get involved then I might have to deal with them'.

The simple fact of the matter is, if enough people show them that their behavior is unacceptable, if nothing else, the difficulty they encounter in getting their way of abusing their target uncontested is enough of an irritation to make them eventually stop. Ive done it hundreds of times.

But most importantly the people they are attacking see they arent ALONE in a swarm of cackling hyenas.

And yes, changing the problem will change the symptoms. My generation was NOT like this.

These people are obnoxious, terminally socially clueless, with poor critical problem solving skills, poor reading comprehension, poor deductive reasoning, bad inductive reasoning, morons who believe they are always right no matter how stupid, broken, or disproven their arguments are, who play games that are obnoxious, socially clueless, that require no critical problem solving, no reading comprehension, no deductive reasoning, stupid inductive reasoning, and always win no matter how bad or stupid they play, and are constantly told how great and awesome they are extrinsically by being given constant trophies and achievements, for doing and accomplishing nothing.

Its not a coincidence.
Did your generation literally grew up on the internet like currently MY generation? That whole what they games they play bit is completely irrelevant.
 
Every vitriolic and virulent comment that comes her way just reinforces the need for her in the gaming space. I have a lot of respect for her continuing to press her message and stated goal.

I agree. Im at this point.

It frankly wears thin to hear nasty criticisms for what amounts to Soc101 level analysis of video games and feminism.

She has my support.
 
I found one link but it's half full of GG hot rubbish. Probably google it cause I can't right now but basically, the ex-porn star Cytherea had her home broken into my 3 men while her family slept. She was gang raped in her own bed, beaten up, left terrified to even go outside. A bunch of female porn stars wanted to raise money to donate to her and help her recover(Like Christy Mack when she was beaten up and nearly killed by the MMA fighter). They contacted Anita and a bunch of other internet feminists to help raise awareness for it and all flat out ignored it.

Left a really bitter taste in my mouth about her after hearing that.

It's pretty disingenuous to say that a civil rights speaker is not sincere because they are not aware of and tackling all problems simultaneously. Anita cannot speak on all things and attempt to save everyone, she's just one person speaking on a small handful of issues in the media and pop culture space. We in the gaming space make a big deal about her kickstarter, but it only made $150k. It'd be like asking Tim Wise to come to a gay rights rally and give a speech - yeah it's nice you got a civil rights celebrity, but so what?
 

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Yeah.

The terminology used at the last DICE Summit was, and I quote:

'We carefully cultivated, exploited and profited off of their entitlement'
Pretty much so.
 

KmA

Member
I find it strange that people are saying ignore the youtube comments here on GAF considering this community is heavily monitored and bans people for saying stupid shit all the time. And ultimately, this community is better for it.
 

DJ_Lae

Member
Man, those youtube comments think they're in the right as well. Yikes.

That's what always bothers me so much about comments like that - the people who are making them seem so convinced that they're doing their version of God's will, and they're so damn proud of every word they type. It's baffling to me.
 

foltzie1

Member
Mostly on-topic, but something Lindsay Ellis (the Nostalgia Chick) wrote popped up on my Twitter feed earlier and it feels really on-point. I'll link it here with one of the passages:
http://www.themarysue.com/dont-read-the-comments/

I wouldn't argue that one should have to "bath in the cespool" to use the internet, but I do think it is a mistake to assume maturity in your average internet user.

I'm not excusing behavior, but at nine to thirteen year old who has figured out that the words "fuck" and "cunt" to a reaction is a different person than the adult, who should clearly know better. The internet can make it tough to distinguish.
 
Would be nice if people are rational about things.
Lots of people need anger management.

I say people need to be held responsible for what they say. NeoGAF for example has mod team that will ban us if we get too out of line/hand. YouTube and Twitter has no such system.
 

Fhtagn

Member
When you put yourself in such a 'in-your-face' stance you have to take the good with the bad. It's nice to have people sprinkle your words on their cereal every morning before they head to work. It's horrifying to have your words baked in a cake of feces and crammed down your gullet.

I'm not convinced she believes some of the things she says. I'm not even convinced she didn't initially manufacture hardship for profit.

I wish I didn't have to keep pointing this out to people but Anita's claims about video games are generally speaking no where near "in your face" nor particularly controversial to most people. And the second bit is so offensive; how can you believe one would need to fake the abuse with the evidence of the last 6-7 months making it clear there's an army of folks out there willing to harass at the slightest provocation?
 

Peltz

Member
I agree. Im at this point.

It frankly wears thin to hear nasty criticisms for what amounts to Soc101 level analysis of video games and feminism.

She has my support.

She has my support too. Her message is going to lead to better games for all.
 
I agree. Im at this point.

It frankly wears thin to hear nasty criticisms for what amounts to Soc101 level analysis of video games and feminism.

She has my support.

+1 more.

It's really disappointing to see it's gotten to this point, but here we are. I assume these are mostly Millennials behaving this way. My disappointment continues to grow. I really expected a bit more from this generation in terms of race, gender and sexual orientation progress. What I see on display is all too often what I'd expect to hear, read and see from those 30 years their elders. The opinions these people are expressing is what they really think.
 

KingFire

Banned
Harrassment doesn't necessarily mean death threats and FBI reports. The daily accumulation of insults adds up in itself.

Let's run a thought experiment:
You make an argument in a post and a lot of people on NeoGAF disagree withit. You log off and come back to your phone or computer an hour later to see your post quoted 500 times in the thread. Among these 500 quotes, 100 are calling you a whore, a fat cunt, a professional victim, a number of unrelated racial epithets.
You PM a mod to complain and they tell you that:
A. Nobody made a death threat.
B. You should answer the 400 other posts because their scrutiny deserves answers.
C. Ignore the mean comments. We won't censor them or ban anyone because that would create a Streisand effect.

Now repeat that for 1000 more days whenever you make a post on GAF.

Please read the post I responded to.
 
I say people need to be held responsible for what they say. NeoGAF for example has mod team that will ban us if we get too out of line/hand. YouTube and Twitter has no such system.
That as well.
If people did this stuff to others in real life, they would be at least scolded by police.
Yet if people do it on the internet, then no real consequences happen.
 
I don't even know if anonymity is really the problem anymore. Devin Faraci (editor in-chief of Badass Digest) said on twitter that a majority of negative comments are left on Facebook by people using real names and pictures. At the end of day Anita Sarkeesian can survive in the real world even getting all sorts of death threats and being constantly harrassed (still bad things to do btw) and the losers egging her on can't.
 
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