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[gerg]

But seriously, no. There's a good reason why people gave up the strategy of forcing left-handed people to use their right hands. Forcing children to use their right hand instead of their left (which was commonly done in the past) ended in serious psychological problems for many of those kids. "Learning" to use the other hand is stupid and there's no reason to demand that from anyone.

Are we sure that was less to do with the environment in which those children were forced to learn to use their right hands, rather than innate difficulties in doing so? Do people who voluntarily try to become ambidextrous face these psychological issues?

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing for Nintendo to be accommodating; I agree that there are pragmatic arguments as to why Nintendo should include a left-handed mode, namely that (unless I am wrong) it wouldn't require a significant amount of time or resources. (And I say this in contrast to criticisms against Nintendo for including only one analogue stick on the 3DS.)

All I'm arguing is that we need to be careful, lest we suddenly start to demand that all games incorporate all people.

Edit: And I'm not saying that people who are left-handed are being unfair for being upset at the decision - no one likes it when they find out they will be unable to take part in something, especially when that something is a game that they have looked forward to playing for a long time. But there's a difference between exclaiming that something sucks for them and saying that Nintendo should be forced to change their development of this game because of it.

 

[Cheerilee]

Are we sure that was less to do with the environment in which those children were forced to learn to use their right hands, rather than innate difficulties in doing so? Do people who voluntarily try to become ambidextrous face these psychological issues?

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing for Nintendo to be accommodating; I agree that there are pragmatic arguments as to why Nintendo should include a left-handed mode, namely that (unless I am wrong) it wouldn't require a significant amount of time or resources. (And I say this in contrast to criticisms against Nintendo for including only one analogue stick on the 3DS.)

All I'm arguing is that we need to be careful, lest we suddenly start to demand that all games incorporate all people.

You sort of have a point, but you're upside down. Link is left handed. Link has always been left handed. It's an artistic detail that means something even to right handed people. If anyone should have to learn to be ambi to play Zelda (if that's a reasonable request), it should be right handed players.

 

[upandaway]

Are we sure that was less to do with the environment in which those children were forced to learn to use their right hands, rather than innate difficulties in doing so? Do people who voluntarily try to become ambidextrous face these psychological issues?

I think I read somewhere that ambidextrous (at least not naturally) people have harder time concentrating or something.

Maybe I shouldn't talk off memory like that but it's worth looking into.

 

[neoism]

New IGN Interview:

Eiji Aonuma Interview on both new Zeldas
http://ds.ign.com/articles/109/1099435p1.html

Eiji Aonuma, Producer of EAD Software Group No. 3, the group in charge of both The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3DS.

Reveals that former Capcom designer, Hidemaro Fujibayashi, director of Oracles and Minish Cap, joined EAD afterwards as an assistant director to Phantom Hourglass.

Afterwards, he joined the Zelda Wii team, and is now the lead director under Aonuma, and with assistant directors.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

You sort of have a point, but you're upside down. Link is left handed. Link has always been left handed.

That's for artists/designers to decide for each iteration, not history.

 

[gerg]

You sort of have a point, but you're upside down. Link is left handed. Link has always been left handed. It's an artistic detail that means something even to right handed people. If anyone should have to learn to be ambi to play Zelda (if that's a reasonable request), it should be right handed players.

What Link has "historically" been has got nothing to do with it. Nintendo could give Link a third hand somewhere around his stomach and force all players to play the game with their Wii Remote placed directly in front of their belly button for all I care.

My only point is that there's no "should" about it; Nintendo has every right to make a game in which they want people holding the Wii Remote in their right hand.

 

[Cheerilee]

That's for artists/designers to decide for each iteration, not marketing.

Fixed.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Fixed.

Don't break what I say and pretend you're fixing it... I'm talking about the fact that if each Link is supposed to be a different one save for a few exceptions where the games are actual sequels, it doesn't matter which hand the previous ones used anyway.

I don't know what it is in this particular discussion that makes people go out of their way to annoy each other, even I am getting irritated over this. Was the same for TP Wii, too.

Also, marketing is a valid reason behind design choices when talking about something that's supposed to be sold.

 

[Cheerilee]

Don't break what I say and pretend you're fixing it... I'm talking about the fact that if each Link is supposed to be a different one save for a few exceptions where the games are actual sequels, it doesn't matter which hand the previous ones used anyway.

I don't know what it is in this particular discussion that makes people go out of their way to annoy each other, even I am getting irritated over this. Was the same for TP Wii, too.

Also, marketing is a valid reason behind design choices when talking about something that's supposed to be sold.

Link is always different, yet the same. And artists/designers DID conclusively say that Link was left handed in Twilight Princess. Then marketing came in and suggested that they screw 10% of the population so they could better appeal to the other 90%. Do you honestly believe that Link is right handed in Spirit Sword because it was a radical and divergent artistic decision? Please. Your defense of art is laughable.

 

[J-Rzez]

This is serious bullshit, just "mirror" it then or whatever. Yes, I'm left handed, yes I'm pretty ambidextrous because of that, and yes I would want to hold a sword in my main hand and shield in off. Why would they overlook something like that?

 

[gerg]

Link is always different, yet the same. And artists/designers DID conclusively say that Link was left handed in Twilight Princess. Then marketing came in and suggested that they screw 10% of the population so they could better appeal to the other 90%. Do you honestly believe that Link is right handed in Spirit Sword because it was a radical and divergent artistic decision? Please. Your defense of art is laughable.

This entire back-and-forth is entirely irrelevant. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I think that if you just stated that your frustration and indignation is caused by the fact that you can't play the game (rather than some faux moral crusade) we'd all be able to sympathise with you and agree that it would be better for Nintendo to make the game more accessible than waste time arguing about whether or not Nintendo had genuine and sufficient reasons to make the decisions it did.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Do you honestly believe that Link is right handed in Spirit Sword because it was a radical and divergent artistic decision?

No I don't.

It's just as gerg says. This is about you. Your disappointment is understandable. There's no need to inflate the whole thing.

 

[wrowa]

Are we sure that was less to do with the environment in which those children were forced to learn to use their right hands, rather than innate difficulties in doing so? Do people who voluntarily try to become ambidextrous face these psychological issues?

It's more or less a combination of both. The fact that they were forced to do it plus the problem that a left-handed person can't simply start writing with his right hand, for example. It's a situation of stress and fear - you are forced to do something you simply cannot do.

People who try become ambidextrous on their own will probably don't face these problems or at least not as much, but honestly, the number of people who are actually willing to try that should be rather slim. Why would anyone want to do this? It's exhaustive, it's not possible for everyone and it's something that really shouldn't be a problem nowadays. Being left-handed isn't a sickness or a fault one has to overcome. Just because something is possible (for some), that's not a reason to think that it's a legitimate request.

Hell, I can't even write my own name with my left hand.

All I'm arguing is that we need to be careful, lest we suddenly start to demand that all games incorporate all people.

It should be at least the target of any developer to pay attention to the needs of common "problem groups" like left-handed or colorblind people as long as it remains reasonable and manageable - and including a mirror mode in one of the biggest video game releases or an alternative color scheme in a puzzle game is reasonable.


Anyway, I'm still pretty sure that Skyward Sword is going to have a left-handed mode.

 

[Cheerilee]

This entire back-and-forth is entirely irrelevant, and I think that if you just stated that your frustration and indignation is caused by the fact that you can't play the game (rather than some faux moral crusade) we'd all be able to sympathise with you and agree that it would be better for Nintendo to make the game more accessible than waste time arguing about whether or not Nintendo had genuine and sufficient reasons to make the decisions it did.

Nope. I'm adapted. I lost my ability to use left handed scissors sometime before the age of ten.

- I appreciate the unique and uncommon detail of Link being left handed.

- This offense is a significant escalation over TP Wii.

- Nintendo has no excuse this time.

It's mind boggling how anyone with even a mild understanding of the facts can take Nintendo's side here.

I was going to write more, but I don't have time to waste trying to rationally explain things to someone who people who dismiss arguments as strawman and reductio ad absurdum, and then jump into ad-hominem without provocation.

 

[Mr. B Natural]

Guys, I think you're all over-exagerating how "demanding" the precision of controls is going to be. Move your sword left - right - horizontal swing. Up to down- vertical. At most you might have to swing at a 45 degree-ish angle at times. Push shield forward - shield bash, etc. Sure it may feel more natural in the right hand, but the left hand swap won't change much. Left to right in the right hand is very similar to left to right with your left hand. Putting a sword in your left hand when its in the right hand on screen i don't think is gonna change much. It's not bowling or golf where your orientation is completely different. Link looks forward, you look forward.

It's not anywhere near 1 to 1 or is the game going to demand it. It's gonna have a shit load of gimmicky enemies that involve swinging horizontally when you need to, vertically when you need to, etc. Woop-dee-doo. As long as you don't have issues like the press conference has, then you'll be fine. Wave your arm like an idiot horizontally, vertically or in 45 degree angles and it appears at least you'll be able to get through the demo no problem. Maybe things will get more demanding in terms of aiming as the game progresses, but I doubt it.

 

[gerg]

It's mind boggling how anyone with even a mild understanding of the facts can take Nintendo's side here.

Because I honestly don't see a moral side to this issue.

And I'm not taking Nintendo's side inasmuch as I do agree that it would be better for this game to be more inclusive, and I do agree that there are pragmatic reasons for including a left-handed mode. I just want to maintain Nintendo's right to release a game without a left-handed mode.

I was going to write more, but I don't have time to waste trying to rationally explain things to someone who people who dismiss arguments as strawman and reductio ad absurdum, and then jump into ad-hominem without provocation.

I apologise if I offended you. I should not have made the unfounded ad hominem argument.

- I appreciate the unique and uncommon detail of Link being left handed.

And what if I don't? I'm not sure that this is a particularly strong argument.

It should be at least the target of any developer to pay attention to the needs of common "problem groups" like left-handed or colorblind people as long as it remains reasonable and manageable - and including a mirror mode in one of the biggest video game releases or an alternative color scheme in a puzzle game is reasonable.

So you agree that there are pragmatic reasons for including a left-handed mode, like I have been saying for a while?

Edit: I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that I agree that, in this case, Nintendo should include a left-handed mode for the game, but for reasons other than the general maxim that "all games should be as inclusive as possible".

Edit2: And this is an argument you didn't engage in, ruby_onix - if we agree that Nintendo should include a left-handed mode on the basis of "as being as inclusive as possible", should Kinect be denied release because people who are wheel-chair bound can't enjoy it? Of course not. And I think that the reason this is the case is because we would argue that it is not "reasonable" to do so for Microsoft: there is no universal law governing when and when it isn't reasonable to incorporate others. And so, each case must be taken on an individual basis, which is why I agree that Nintendo should include a left-handed mode inasmuch as it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to do so but not because they should always try to be as inclusive as possible.

Edit3: And in that sense I was actively wrong to deny that this was a moral issue.

Edit4: And so, in that sense, I think I would actually claim that my previous stance of "maintaining Nintendo's right" to release a game without a left-handed mode is wrong, and too vague for the issue at hand. I doubt you'll read this, but I do mostly agree with you.

 

[Branduil]

If there's anything that Princess Bride taught me it's that it's entirely possible to be skilled at swordfighting with your off hand.

 

[Branduil]

I would have much more of a problem using the Analog with my right hand then I would slashing with my right.

Yeah I tried a couple times to play MP3 with the Wiimote in my left hand and while I was slightly more accurate, I was moving around like a drunken fool.

 

[Dali]

Link is always different, yet the same. And artists/designers DID conclusively say that Link was left handed in Twilight Princess. Then marketing came in and suggested that they screw 10% of the population so they could better appeal to the other 90%. Do you honestly believe that Link is right handed in Spirit Sword because it was a radical and divergent artistic decision? Please. Your defense of art is laughable.

And this doesn't make even the smallest amount of sense to the lefties? Actually when looking at gamers who play Zelda that percentage is probably even more skewed in favor of righties. I just don't get the outrage. Lefties are just outside of Nintendo's target demographic. They don't need your money. Or at least the trouble and expense of making you happy has been deemed not worth it. Get over it and either don't play, or play like the lefties at E3 and suffer the "visual disconnect".

Guess what? Big, tall, short, fat, etc people have trouble finding clothes that fit. They are oftentimes uncomfortable in some cars and restaurants. The world just doesn't seem like it was made for you sometimes. Well, because it wasn't. It blows my mind how someone can live their entire life a lefty and still feel such a sense of entitlement.

 

[Cheerilee]

I apologise if I offended you. I should not have made the unfounded ad hominem argument.

Yeah, I'm sorry I got a bit heated too. Thanks for the PM.

Because I honestly don't see a moral side to this issue.

And I'm not taking Nintendo's side inasmuch as I do agree that it would be better for this game to be more inclusive, and I do agree that there are pragmatic reasons for including a left-handed mode. I just want to maintain Nintendo's right to release a game without a left-handed mode.

I would say that left-handedness is as serious of a discrimination issue as any other situation involving a repressed minority, it's just not as visible as some of the more popular battles. Everyone has a moral responsibility to confront these kinds of problems, to an extent (nobody's asking anyone to lay down in front of a tank or anything like that). Nintendo has shown a frequent awareness of this issue (they've talked about it since the NES D-pad), so I think it hurts more when they toss it aside. I was willing to buy their "fixing TP after the fact is too hard" line, but straightening out SS would've been easy as pie if they actually gave a crap.

And I think whatever right they have to ignore the issue and make a game without a left handed mode evaporates with Zelda. Zelda Wii brings the issue of hand-dominance to the forefront, and it was entirely a left handed mode before they changed it.

Just to mention a bit more on my personal beef here, I think it's the artistic compromise. As I mentioned, I'm adapted, so I had no troubles with TP Wii, but if a left-handed mode was available it would be the definitive Link, and I'd play it that way because I could and I think it would be a truer Zelda experience, not because I'd have to.

Fake Edit: I see that as I was typing, you posted and considered more. I'll leave what I wrote, but on the subject of Kinect and wheelchairs, I would say that as long as Microsoft seriously considered the situation, they're fine, even if they couldn't come up with a solution, or found the solution too difficult. Nintendo fully considered the problem, brainstormed, found a number of dirt-easy easy solutions (the first time around), but didn't use any of them (the first or second time around), either because they're complete assholes or because they forgot about the issue the instant people stopped asking them about it. At this point I'm strongly leaning towards them being assholes who love to spout meaningless hot air about how caring and considerate they are.

 

[gerg]

Yeah, I'm sorry I got a bit heated too. Thanks for the PM.

No worries. : )

I would say that left-handedness is as serious of a discrimination issue as any other situation involving a repressed minority, it's just not as visible as some of the more popular battles. Everyone has a moral responsibility to confront these kinds of problems, to an extent (nobody's asking anyone to lay down in front of a tank or anything like that).

I just don't think you can easily call it "discrimination", especially if you want to convey all the negative baggage that word carries with it. Here Dali brings up a good point: some chairs aren't always designed for particularly fat people. Is that discrimination? I don't think so.

As I have said, I think you need to take a much more pragmatic approach to the problem: I think you'll arrive at the same conclusion, but without resorting to very large claims.

Nintendo fully considered the problem, brainstormed, found a number of dirt-easy easy solutions (the first time around), but didn't use any of them (the first or second time around), either because they're complete assholes or because they forgot about the issue the instant people stopped asking them about it. At this point I'm strongly leaning towards them being assholes who love to spout meaningless hot air about how caring and considerate they are.

I'm strongly leaning to the idea that they probably want to complete the game first and then see if they can spend some extra time on it to support a vocal minority without hitting their planned release date.

 

[faridmon]

As right handed man, i say why doesn't Nintenod just reflect everything in Zelda: SS so more left handed person who are sensitive could enjoy? its not it requires tons of work they did the same bloody thing with TP.

I can understand Dragona/lyre or whoever else is complaining as the main problem is not whether they can adopt or not, but why would they need to adopt when Nintendo can bloody just flip it around?

and the DS stuff is more issues.

 

[Tiktaalik]

It's a real shame since Nintendo was really progressive in adapting mirrored controls for the Virtual Boy controller which was waaay back in ye olde 1995.

 

[Anonymous Tipster]

It's a real shame since Nintendo was really progressive in adapting mirrored controls for the Virtual Boy controller which was waaay back in ye olde 1995.

And look how that helped them then!

You lefties had your chance!

 

[mantidor]

Yeah I tried a couple times to play MP3 with the Wiimote in my left hand and while I was slightly more accurate, I was moving around like a drunken fool.

Corruption is a very interesting example. I can't aim accurately with the right hand even if my life depend on it, so remote went to the left hand, as always. One funny thing though is that the gestures are done by Samus with the left hand, so for brief moments I was, I'm not kidding, shocked when I felt suddenly immersion in the game. This is how righties feel with the remote all the time I thought to myself, when you see your action replicated it adds another level of immersion. And this was a game that had all this gestures more like gimmick than as the main gameplay mechanic. We are getting a subpar experience.

But you just adapt, is a bit insulting all the people telling us to adapt, because we do exactly that, every single day. It's the contempt of Nintendo's attitude that pisses people off, specially when the solution is not as hard as they are making it out to be. The interviewer should've asked more about why they need to make two models of everything, at least it would have given us some insight into how deep and precise the sword controls and gameplay are going to be, because if its just horizontal/vertical slashes there's no need to duplicate anything.

 

[Oblivion]

Look, I'm really sorry about Nintendo not implementing a left handed option for you 'people'. I feel your pain, I really do.

But I'll be damned if I'm gonna have MY civil rights violated in order to accommodate you freaks of nature! GROW UP.

 

[830920]

As a leftie I don't see what there is to complain about. I had that problem with TP since I want to control the character with my left thumb I had to place the Wiimote in my right hand, it only took a couple of hours to get precise with the controls and now I will never have that problem again.