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AP: NFL finds it probable that Patriots deliberately deflated balls

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Q

Quotient

Member
Cybit said:
Based on the value of the colts balls and how close they were to each other; statistically (and this was pointed out on page 9); it would have been very unlikely that the other Colts balls would have differed much. Also, they ended up testing 12 Patriots balls (the one that was intercepted and also tested to be under 12.5; but wasn't put into the table).

Note; they did have a professor (and the old head) of Physics at Princeton also doing the scientific analysis. I promise you none of us are going to point out an issue the prof hadn't already seen.
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It sounds like you are one of the few who read the appendix.
 
S

spyder_ur

Member
Crisco said:
But Ted Wells and co. didn't just ask Brady to hand over his cell phone. They offered him the opportunity to go through the records himself, with his own lawyers, and produce only the messages relevant to the investigation. Instead he gave them nothing at all. False equivalencies in that article.
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Brady would have been a total moron to give up his phone in any capacity and would have been rightfully excoriated by the Player's Union. Look at what it did for Incognito when he 'cooperated'.

He had nothing to gain by doing so.
 
Q

Quotient

Member
Crisco said:
But Ted Wells and co. didn't just ask Brady to hand over his cell phone. They offered him the opportunity to go through the records himself, with his own lawyers, and produce only the messages relevant to the investigation. Instead he gave them nothing at all. False equivalencies in that article.
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Even if Brady handed over what he and his lawyers thought was relevant data, the investigator would probably still note he was uncooperative, as they can't be sure Brady didn't censor anything before handing it over.

Either he handed everything over to the investigator, or he declined, i don't know if the other option was really viable.
 
Z

Zvonimir Boban

Banned
forgeforsaken said:
The key word there is recalls. The fact remains that the data was not actually logged. Also it presumes the refs were infallible in this instance where elsewhere in the report it shows instances where they had made mistakes, i.e. the Jets game and the K-ball from the Colts game.
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A) They were all on the bottom end of the allowed range, unless you are calling Walt Anderson a liar?

widely recognized as exceedingly meticulous, diligent and careful.Multiple witnesses noted that Anderson is one of the few referees who personally tests the inflation levels of game balls prior to the game
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B) Bill Leavy and his crew were in charge of the Jets game, not Walt Anderson. Just because one set of refs are clownshoes, doesn't mean they all are.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
forgeforsaken said:
The key word there is recalls. The fact remains that the data was not actually logged. Also it presumes the refs were infallible in this instance where elsewhere in the report it shows instances where they had made mistakes, i.e. the Jets game and the K-ball from the Colts game.
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The issue here is that they already assume best case scenario for the Patriots in this situation - that the balls were at the lowest legal limit. Otherwise, you're assuming that the ref flat out missed that the balls were inflated lower than the legal limit from the get go. While that's not impossible - that is somewhat unlikely (especially seeing as they did get the Colts balls right); and in concert with the NE footballs going missing, and then the person who walked off with them repeatedly changing his story on what happened - makes me go with Occam's Razor on this one.

I mean, tbh - the bigger issues is that this has probably been going on for a while, and Brady was still dumb enough to bald-faced lie about it. Had they openly said they prepared the footballs and our bad if it dropped a little too low, they would have gotten the Carolina / Minnesota penalty and moved on with life. Instead they doubled down, accused the NFL on being on a witch hunt, and then got caught (by NFL standards) screwing around and trying to lie about it.
 
Acerac

Acerac

Banned
Hunter S. said:
Waiting for the NFL to make a decision is getting annoying. I want real talk, not just speculation.
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Meh, doesn't matter. We're gonna sit our starters til Brady's back and win out the rest of the season once he is. If the NFL wants to extend our preseason then it's not like we gotta count it either.

The result at the end is gonna be the same anyways, we're gonna go undefeated (in every real game) and all the haters will continue wishing they were us.

Stay salty. <3

Being a NE fan is fun as hell. I don't know why I didn't try it sooner.
 
H

Hunter S.

Member
KingGondo said:
The fact that they didn't have a decision ready before they released the report is ridiculous in and of itself.
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Yeah, as it would be simple to do both at the same time. Instead we have to deal with more people writing stuff like, if you care about the issue and the game, think that the rules of the game should be enforced, and think the Patriots should be punished, you are just a jealous, hateful person.
 
H

Hunter S.

Member
Acerac said:
Meh, doesn't matter. We're gonna sit our starters til Brady's back and win out the rest of the season once he is. If the NFL wants to extend our preseason then it's not like we gotta count it either.

The result at the end is gonna be the same anyways, we're gonna go undefeated (in every real game) and all the haters will continue wishing they were us.

Stay salty. <3
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Reading comprehension would help here. I said actually having an official judgement would be nice. This is my first post on the issue since February
 
A

ampere

Member
To be fair it isn't fair that Goodell has to predict public reactions! How was he supposed to know people didn't like Ray beating the shit out of his fiance?
 
C

chadskin

Member
forgeforsaken said:
This group used science to definitively prove that second hand smoke doesn't cause cancer too. They're a shop that one typically goes to when you need science to show a predetermined result, not when you are trying to determine what actually happened. Amongst various other things in the report, it's a bit of a head scratcher why that agency was chosen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponent_(consulting_firm)#Questioned_neutrality
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Consulting firm is criticized by an opposing party. News at 11.

ciaossu said:
There's also the issue with the way wet footballs were tested in the report. The report is relatively flimsy science just applying the Ideal Gas Law and saying QED. The fact of the matter is that you won't be able to replicate the conditions exactly, so to make a claim that you definitely prove the PSI drop was impossible is not reasonable.
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The report is not "just applying the Ideal Gas Law", they have done a load of tests on other physical, environmental and usage factors as well. See Appendix 1.

As for Syphers' argument, I agree they should've included that test, wouldn't have hurt certainly. In real-world terms, it would really only work in favor of the Pats if the 4 Colts balls were significantly more dry and all 11 (or 12) Pats balls were significantly more wet. I find that rather unlikely.

In contrast, it could also work out against the Pats: Since the Pats balls were measured first, the effect of evaporative cooling - all things being equal - would've had less of an impact on the Pats balls than on the Colts balls that were measured minutes later.

KingGondo said:
The fact that they didn't have a decision ready before they released the report is ridiculous in and of itself.
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It was an independent report done by someone outside of the NFL. I would've been more concerned with the report's independence if they already had a decision ready by the time it got released.
 
Q

Quotient

Member
The whole Ray Rice incident was so stupid. The NFL shouldn't mandate behavior, it should be the clubs, and let the public court system institute punishments. They only behavior the NFL should be responsible for is conduct on the field. Ray Rice is scum for punching his girlfriend, but the courts left him off easily, i don't see why he shouldn't play football, especially if the Ravens had no problem with it.
 
Q

Quotient

Member
chadskin said:
It was an independent report done by someone outside of the NFL. I would've been more concerned with the report's independence if they already had a decision ready by the time it got released.
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That doesn't mean Wells wasn't keeping Goodell updated on his findings/progress. I know this is all conjecture, but i do think Goodell knew the conclusion and perhaps some details prior the publishing of the report.
 
F

forgeforsaken

Member
chadskin said:
Consulting firm is criticized by an opposing party. News at 11.
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They've been criticized for years though. LA Times article is from 2010

chadskin said:
It was an independent report done by someone outside of the NFL. I would've been more concerned with the report's independence if they already had a decision ready by the time it got released.
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It was a commissioned report. I don't think there's any reason they couldn't have held off releasing the report to the public until they knew what punishments they might pursue.
 
C

chadskin

Member
Quotient said:
That doesn't mean Wells wasn't keeping Goodell updated on his findings/progress. I know this is all conjecture, but i do think Goodell knew the conclusion and perhaps some details prior the publishing of the report.
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He did, Schefti reported as much after it was released to the public:
Ted Wells transmitted his report to Commissioner Goodell and the New England Patriots earlier today.
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But we're talking hours here, not days or weeks.

forgeforsaken said:
They've been criticized for years though. LA Times article is from 2010
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I get the criticism of the past but what matters is whether the report they've done here is scientifically sound or not. With the exception of how they tested wet balls, Syphers says they've done well and otherwise I haven't seen much, if any, meaningful criticism leveled specifically at Exponent's work.

forgeforsaken said:
It was a commissioned report. I don't think there's any reason they couldn't have held off releasing the report to the public until they knew what punishments they might pursue.
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Then things would probably leak about the report, with incomplete/out-of-context nuggets of information feeding conspiracy theories of the NFL's attempt to cover it all up and people would similarly complain about Goodell. So, between the two, I prefer the way they've done it this time as it gives everyone a chance to get the full picture.
 
Q

Quotient

Member
chadskin said:
He did, Schefti reported as much after it was released to the public:


But we're talking hours here, not days or weeks.
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I am suggesting that Wells was keeping Goodell updated on the progress of the report during the 100 days. I'm not suggesting that Goodell received the full report earlier, only that he was most likely aware what the conclusion, and perhaps some details, was going to be.

EDIT: In regards to Exponent: I'm really surprised they choose this firm considering its history.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Quotient said:
I am suggesting that Wells was keeping Goodell updated on the progress of the report during the 100 days. I'm not suggesting that Goodell received the full report earlier, only that he was most likely aware what the conclusion, and perhaps some details, was going to be.

EDIT: In regards to Exponent: I'm really surprised they choose this firm considering its history.
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They probably wanted the engineering / physics background that Exponent had when it came to air pressure and such. It's a good card to have to be able to say "NASA hired these folks to investigate the Shuttle disasters".
 
C

Caja 117

Member
Cybit said:
They probably wanted the engineering / physics background that Exponent had when it came to air pressure and such. It's a good card to have to be able to say "NASA hired these folks to investigate the Shuttle disasters".
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Or they are probably good at cover-ups


/jk
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
cdyhybrid said:
Nah, they're probably breaking a dozen other rules that they haven't been caught for yet.
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I figure the entire NFL does it; sort of like pot. They say getting caught for pot is about passing an intelligence test (actually getting caught) more so than them caring about whether players actually smoke it or not. Feel like it is the same thing - the Patriots are getting punished for being dumb enough and arrogant enough to keep cheating brazenly and dumb enough to get caught (again).
 
H

hom3land

Member
Cybit said:
I figure the entire NFL does it; sort of like pot. They say getting caught for pot is about passing an intelligence test (actually getting caught) more so than them caring about whether players actually smoke it or not. Feel like it is the same thing - the Patriots are getting punished for being dumb enough and arrogant enough to keep cheating brazenly and dumb enough to get caught (again).
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Besides spygate (which I would argue they weren't hiding). When else have they been cheating?
 
E

Elwood Blues

Member
Brady is going to be suspended for two games. Graphic footage from inside the bathroom where the balls were being deflated will then be released mysteriously to go along with the already seen footage from outside the bathroom. Brady will then be suspended from the league indefinitely and later will be released by the patriots. Goodell will then go on a tour of a factory that makes footballs, cry about it, a factory worker will make a statement saying she thinks Goodell is sincere and now realizes that deflating footballs is bad regardless of it being caught on tape or not.
 
L

LyleLanley

Banned
"Filed to ESPN: Tom Brady suspended four games, Pats lose 1st round pick in 2016 and a 4th in 2017, and team fined $1 million, per source:" - @AdamSchefter

Oh
 
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