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[jmood88]

The agenda that's pushin for diversity. Which in thiscase actually means the death of actual diversity and reducing race, gender, sexual orientation to nothing but a set of clothes that should have zero influence on the characters themselves.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

I feel like this aproeach is just shooting yourself in the foot. Increased diversity should happen, but it can be done in a way that actually makes the stories better. Because it allows you to not just increase the diversity in terms of characters, not just textures you put on their models.

Again, why should non-white characters have further justification for their existence than white ones?

I think you've lost some part of the thread. We were talkin about alternate history, not real fantasy setting. With alternate history you are using real world societies and cultures. You can stil do whatever you want, as long as you make it logically sound. You have to do the same for every other element of the fictional setting, no reason why you can't do the same with ethnicities. Especially since using real world as basis you can draw from incredibly rich source of actual non-white cultures and histories. Seems a lot better than just taking white characters, setting the skin shade slider down and pretending it's ok.

You can't create a world where you're introducing a historical and unrealistic aspects, then claim that a non-white character is somehow the least realistic part of such a scenario. We keep putting white characters in situations where they don't belong with no such requirement that there be a deep reason for they exist, so there's absolutely no reason why that should exist for non-white characters.

 

[Scipio]

It could be an interesting character and certainly not completely historically incorrect, but good points were made too e.g. This Order is an ancient organization which are always even today white men clubs.

Personally, I don't find them lack of black people jarring, because to me that's not essential about portraying Victorian London (because 19th century London isn't there same as present London or 19th century Louisiana). But of course I'm no expert on this period of time but to say that they would be like an alien... Well that's just ignorant.

This all doesn't change te fact that I'm not interested in this game.

 

[Wiktor]

Again, why should non-white characters have further justification for their existence than white ones?

Because they were much more rare part of the society you're used as basis for alternate history. It' not "non-white characters" that deserve justification. It's the non-native characters that do. Skin color has nothing to do with it. White characters need it just as much justifications when they're placed in stories that take place in different ethnic settings. When asian authors are putting white characters in their stories they most of the time do explain their history and how they got to be in the new place. It's just good fiction.

You can't create a world where you're introducing a historical and unrealistic aspects, then claim that a non-white character is somehow the least realistic part of such a scenario. .

It only becomes the least realistic part of the setting when every other non-historical element is explained, while the ethnic state of society isn't. It's just seems weird. You're creating elaborate alternate reality where everything has it's place and source and you're not willing to allow ethnic differences the same courtesy as you provide for geopolitical situation of technological level? Why?

We keep putting white characters in situations where they don't belong with no such requirement that there be a deep reason for they exist, so there's absolutely no reason why that should exist for non-white characters.

When you put white characters where they don't belong without justification it's a bad fiction. Character being white isn't any excuse for that. It's just plain lazy..

 

[xevis]

When you put white characters where they don't belong without justification it's a bad fiction. Character being white isn't any excuse for that. It's just plain lazy..

This has already been debunked. It has been debunked in two ways:

1. The story being told is not a historical dramatisation; it's high fantasy dressed up in Victorian-era clothing. If you can suspend your disbelief enough to accept werewolves and future weapons then you should also be able to accept that in this alternate universe there can also be non-white people in London.

2. Your justification about "good writing" is misguided. Adding detail for the sake of detail (or "world building") is not good writing. It's printed tripe. Details are important, yes, but only insofar as they help to support and develop the central narrative. Anything else is extraneous and should be omitted. See also Tom Bombadil.

Look, if you genuinely find the idea of non-whites in fantasy London so jarring that you cannot accept it -- at least not without requiring the narrative to bend over backwards and explain to you how this bizarre and alien state of affairs came to be -- then perhaps it's time to stop looking at the "writing" for the source of the problem and start reflecting inwards.

 

[Wiktor]

Look, if you genuinely find the idea of non-whites in fantasy London so jarring that you cannot accept it -- at least not without requiring the narrative to bend over backwards and explain to you how this bizarre and alien state of affairs came to be -- then perhaps it's time to stop looking at the "writing" for the source of the problem and start reflecting inwards.

I don't require "the narrative to bend over backwards". Unless you consider small bits of background info to be "bending backwards" and if you do then maybe you should ask yourself why you're feeling so emotional about the subject that you're attemping to create a storytelling taboo.

Anyway, I'm out. The discussion is getting a bit to heated for me.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Don't bother arguing with someone who frequently expresses his aversion to diversity

 

[Riposte]

1. Who cares? Games have shitty writing to begin with.

Don't agree with the idea that it would be "bad writing", but this is the worst way to approach it. "Videogames are trash, they should be trash in a way I will tolerate, too bad person who actually likes them". This sort of cynical disdain in conjunction with a "progressive motive" is a surprisingly common sentiment and does little to dispel the "outsider trying to change them" image people have and feel defensive towards. It's quite different from the idea of someone playing a game, liking it, but wishing there were more (realistic) skin colors in the worlds they've come to love. Versus "It's all garbage anyway, how could anyone care?"

 

[xevis]

Don't agree with the idea that it would be "bad writing", but this is the worst way to approach it. "Videogames are trash, they should be trash in a way I will tolerate, too bad person who actually likes them". This sort of cynical disdain in conjunction with a "progressive motive" is a surprisingly common sentiment and does little to dispel the "outsider trying to change them" image people have and feel defensive towards. It's quite different from the idea of someone playing a game, liking it, but wishing there were more (realistic) skin colors in the worlds they've come to love. Versus "It's all garbage anyway, how could anyone care?"

I feel you're misrepresenting me here but still, I take your overall point. Touche.

As an aside, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about why game narratives are so often derided, but... that sounds like another thread.

 

[ppor]

Bump, thought this was relevant. People complaining about black Stormtrooper in new Star Wars film. I swear racists find any excuse to complain about minorities in film/tv/games.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=943039

 

[Lime]

I apologize for bumping this, but I didn't think it was relevant to make a new thread about it. I read this Gamasutra blog post today by developer of Elsinore, which depicts 16th century Denmark with Ophelia from Hamlet being signified as a person of color. The blog post deals with historical accuracy, the argument against it, and how the Order failed to represent the true diversity of its historical setting.

Most people, designers and writers included, get their mental image of historical periods from film. This is normal and expected. Unfortunately, Hollywood has a strong tendency to "white-wash" history. The point of a historical film frequently isn't to be true to its source -- it's to sell tickets. Remaining "true to history" often gets booted in favor of casting already-popular caucasian stars who are sure to bump up box office profits on name recognition alone. After all, a producer once joked to me, who would go see a movie about Noah's Ark if it starred a bunch of no-name Arab actors? The recent controversy over Ridley Scott's Exodus also reflects this issue; the more diverse the cast, the more difficult it is for a film to obtain funding, so we tend to see historical movies trend towards white, straight male-centric narratives.

Far more frequently, so-called "historically-influenced" games like Dishonored, Bioshock or The Witcher release with a fully white, straight, mostly-male cast, with town squares dominated by white NPCs. But if you look at the real world counterpart for each of these games, the accuracy of their worlds quickly disintegrates. Most historical games, for example, are centered around cities: short of an Iron Age pre-sea-travel game, every city of a substantial size should have some natural mingling of culture, ethnicity, race, and value systems. Far too often these historically-influenced games try to "handle" racial diversity by erasing it completely.

In choosing a historical period for your game, you choose a blank canvas full of potential. Rather than immediately applying the version of history which Hollywood has handed down to us and calling it "accurate," creators should strive to be reflective of actual history. That involves rethinking some of the assumptions we make about the people who lived and died long before us.

Many of the diverse voices from history have been intentionally and maliciously erased by our precursors over time, but in the age of information -- where Google Scholar is a couple keystrokes away -- there's little excuse left to hide behind.

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/KatieChi...cally_Accuratequot__Diversity_in_Elsinore.php

 

[superseohyun]

i can play a game where feudal japan ninja and samurai battle each other using crazy moves or monsters from Japanese legend all day but as soon as a white western guy pop into this game out of no where i will roll my eyes. Is this racism deep inside me?

 

[Crossing Eden]

I apologize for bumping this, but I didn't think it was relevant to make a new thread about it. I read this Gamasutra blog post today by developer of Elsinore, which depicts 16th century Denmark with Ophelia from Hamlet being signified as a person of color. The blog post deals with historical accuracy, the argument against it, and how the Order failed to represent the true diversity of its historical setting.

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/KatieChi...cally_Accuratequot__Diversity_in_Elsinore.php

That person had a point about Dishonored, buuutt concerning Witcher and Bioshock, racism is huge plot point in Witcher and Bioshock, Witcher in particular is set in an area inspired by medieval Northern Europe, of which people of other ethnicities were very rare outside of trading areas like naval ports, the majority of the racism is against elves, who either live in ghettos or the woods. And Bioshock is set in a cities where "only the best and brightest of the human race may dwell." Considering the time period it makes sense that the leader would very rarely consider black people to be the best and brightest of the human race. In Infinite this is expanded further because you see the civilians refer to African Americans as savages, and they're all relegated to servants. That tudio did a great job with addressing the topic in that game and portraying a racist city. That blog post seemed to miss the point entirely when it complains about "white npcs mostly in town squares." Ofc, because the black people are in the bathroom cleaning the floor. You can even hear one talking intelligently, and as soon as you get close to him he pretends to talk as if he's illiterate. They most certainly took into account how they can depict racial issues.

 

[Wiktor]

That person had a point about Dishonored, buuutt concerning Witcher and Bioshock, racism is huge plot point in Witcher and Bioshock, Witcher in particular is set in an area inspired by medieval Northern Europe, of which people of other ethnicities were very rare outside of trading areas like naval ports, the majority of the racism is against elves, who either live in ghettos or the woods. And Bioshock is set in a cities where "only the best and brightest of the human race may dwell." Considering the time period it makes sense that the leader would very rarely consider black people to be the best and brightest of the human race. In Infinite this is expanded further because you see the civilians refer to African Americans as savages, and they're all relegated to servants. That tudio did a great job with addressing the topic in that game and portraying a racist city. That blog post seemed to miss the point entirely when it complains about "white npcs mostly in town squares." Ofc, because the black people are in the bathroom cleaning the floor. You can even hear one talking intelligently, and as soon as you get close to him he pretends to talk as if he's illiterate. They most certainly took into account how they can depict racial issues.

That article seems terribly ignorant when it comes to Witcher. Maybe even a bit racist (altough not intentionally), because it assumes slavic culture doesn;t exist and French/British medieval era was the only one that ever existed, when it's a culture that has it's share of discrimination and still suffers from it to this day in western world (altough to much lesser degree).

What he writes is like complaining a game set in fantasy version of China isn't full of white and black characters or that African fantasy story isn't filled with asians and caucascians.

 

[……forgetit]

Isn't The Order supposed to take place in Victorian England? I don't mean fantasy Victorian England, but Victorian England as we know it. I may be wrong, but I thought that the plot of the game was that werewolves and vampires and whatnot exist and always have, and that "The Order" is a secret society that fights these monsters throughout the ages. Because of this, the setting of The Order is Victorian England and it's therefore excusable that everything besides the monsters (which in the cannon of the game exist on the same planet that we live on) reflects the reality of that time. Alternatively, a game like Dishonored features a fantasy setting based on Victorian England but has the freedom to make any changes it wishes because it's not actually Victorian England. This is similar to most fantasy games (Dragon Age, Skyrim) in that they're based on Medieval Europe but aren't actually in Medoeval Europe and don't need to abide by racial divides that existed at the time.

Okay, I'm about to shock you, and a lot of other people in this thread....ready? Here it goes. There actually were black people in Victorian England, heck there were black people in england all the way back to the 1600s, but the population boomed during the trans Atlantic slave trade. They were around, mainly at port cities, but they were their.