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Are Publishers REALLY Considering Dropping Xbox Support( DF Clips)
- Thread starter onQ123
- Start date
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
John Linneman made an interesting point: there are indie games that have sold only a couple of dozen of copies on Xbox. That’s bad. But how many copies were sold on other platforms? Can’t have been that many either.
Fredrik
Member
Interesting video, it’s like reading a forum discussion, just without console warriors trying to trigger people. But I like that DF do this since it might wake up MS. Because as it is the platform is dying. I said awhile back that 2026 is too late for a new generation console and I stand by that, in 2026 Xbox as a console will be dead, that’s just how it is. If it can be resurrected depends on how the next console is.
And regarding game purchases, I for one has bought in total 1 game on Xbox this generation. Indie or AAA doesn’t matter. I play through Gamepass, if a game isn’t there I buy on PC. And now that I don’t have a Gamepass sub I have outright moved over to PC and Steam instead.
How can this be fixed?
3 steps is needed…
1. Exclusives
Real console exclusives.
It’s annoying as hell if you want to play elsewhere but it does work if you want people to buy games. Look at Sony’s numbers.
2. Delayed Gamepass release
Doesn’t have to be years, a couple months is enough. Even 1 month can be enough if combined with the point below.
3. Lower price day 1 and include bonus content
Instead of selling an expensive premium edition 5 days earlier, lower the price during 1 month and include bonus content. That way you catch both those who’re looking for a cheap entry point and those who like bonus content.
And regarding game purchases, I for one has bought in total 1 game on Xbox this generation. Indie or AAA doesn’t matter. I play through Gamepass, if a game isn’t there I buy on PC. And now that I don’t have a Gamepass sub I have outright moved over to PC and Steam instead.
How can this be fixed?
3 steps is needed…
1. Exclusives
Real console exclusives.
It’s annoying as hell if you want to play elsewhere but it does work if you want people to buy games. Look at Sony’s numbers.
2. Delayed Gamepass release
Doesn’t have to be years, a couple months is enough. Even 1 month can be enough if combined with the point below.
3. Lower price day 1 and include bonus content
Instead of selling an expensive premium edition 5 days earlier, lower the price during 1 month and include bonus content. That way you catch both those who’re looking for a cheap entry point and those who like bonus content.
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gothmog
Gold Member
A new console isn't going to save Xbox. None of those things you suggest is going to do it. They probably need to embrace third party status and focus on ensuring quality of the games they do have. Do that and maybe in a few years they could think of new hardware.
Gamepass is a lost cause but they are in too deep at this point to drop it.
Gameplay Gods Bless
Member
It's a business if it doesn't make business sense because the chances of seeing a return on investment are low based on your data then no game is gonna be ported. This has happened to every console maker including Sony with the PS3, PSP and Vita. Nintendo with the N64, Gamecube and Wii U, Microsoft with the OG Xbox and Xbox One.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
The idea that 3rd party games will run on every machine, was not a given.
There are some people here who had lived in an era of 3rd party games on every major platform, for all their lives. But some of us old folks remember when this wasn't always so.
There are some people here who had lived in an era of 3rd party games on every major platform, for all their lives. But some of us old folks remember when this wasn't always so.
Fredrik
Member
Why do people buy Playstation consoles?
Because of console exclusives.
Why do people buy games on Playstation instead of playing through PS+?
Because of delayed PS+ releases.
Why do people play Early Access games?
Because people want to be there day 1 and the price is lower.
Why do people purchase premium editions?
Because people want bonus content.
Everything can be fixed.
Edit: Also, why would third party status help them selling new hardware???
Makes no sense. You think Sony will sell more hardware if they start releasing their games on Xbox and do day 1 PC releases?
And Nintendo, you think they’ll sell more consoles too if Zelda, Mario, Metroid goes to all platforms?
Exclusivity matters. It’s that one thing that could save a platform when everything else goes wrong. Or kill it when it’s not there.
I know it simply by looking at my own actions. I don’t play MS games on Xbox anymore. I don’t play Sony games on Playstation anymore. But I do play Nintendo games on Nintendo consoles. If I definitely need a specific platform to play a game I really want to play, then I’ll invest in that platform.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
midnightAI
Member
They are saying for Xbox to survive they should drop hardware and Gamepass and go third party publisher/developer only. It's a valid option to be honest.Edit: Also, why would third party status help them selling new hardware???
Makes no sense. You think Sony will sell more hardware if they start releasing their games on Xbox and do day 1 PC releases?
And Nintendo, you think they’ll sell more consoles too if Zelda, Mario, Metroid goes to all platforms?
Exclusivity matters. It’s that one thing that could save a platform when everything else goes wrong. Or kill it when it’s not there.
I know it simply by looking at my own actions. I don’t play MS games on Xbox anymore. I don’t play Sony games on Playstation anymore. But I do play Nintendo games on Nintendo consoles. If I definitely need a specific platform to play a game I really want to play, then I’ll invest in that platform.
Mibu no ookami
Member
This is definitely an element or a factor, but I think it's actually not true.
People generally buy PlayStation because of an ecosystem: The controller, PSN, their game library.
There isn't much Microsoft can do at this point to turn the tide on that.
- Would be difficult to replicate the PS controller without alienating core Xbox fans.
- You can't replicate PSN: Trophies, game saves, friends lists
- You can't import a game library
Even the part you mentioned about exclusives is difficult to impossible to replicate. Sony has spent decades building its 1st party studios, to the point where they've attempted the ability for these studios to be able to work on more than one project at a time and even that has seen struggles.
Microsoft can't put nearly as much into studios and projects because the returns aren't there and GamePass destroys that calculus as well. This is something Jim Ryan warned about but was largely mocked about.
If Microsoft were to put 200 million into a game, there is almost no way they get a return out of that game with the game being on GamePass. Especially if it is a single-player non-GaaS game. So that boat has sailed. This is particularly troublesome for original IP.
In the last generation Sony came out with Ghost of Tsushima, Bloodborne, Day's Gone, and you can even give them the nod for Detroit Become Human. Add Spider-Man to that list and it just gets a bit ridiculous.
Microsoft hasn't had a single success in this arena at even the level of Bloodborne or Detroit Become Human. They also rebooted God of War. Even if Microsoft partnered with Quantic Dream, their games wouldn't sell nearly as well without the backing of Sony.
Microsoft generally hasn't come out with a worthwhile single player franchise since Gears of War on the 360 and that was made by Epic. The franchise launched in 2006... That's nearly 20 years without a flagship IP.
DF continues to push the console war and reject the notion that it is over. You can see how sad puppy John Linneman is here. GamePass and PC GamePass destroyed Xbox.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Publishers literally already only support Xbox because MS pays them to, this is not new news lol
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
I guess that depends on what you paid for gamepass. If you paid $15 for 3 years, plus the one game, that's equivelent to buying $600 in games. (9 games) Even if you paid half that, it's $300 on games (4.5 games) at the consoles half life which really isn't that bad. The ps4 for instance had a console attach rate of 9.6 per console sold. That would put it in the same ballpark.
I have had gamepass all along, but I still buy some games. Mostly a few months after they come out, but still a purchase.
As to your points, they really aren't wrong, except I'm not sure a delayed gamepass would be accepted at this point. If they lose 70% of thier subs, and one of the biggest selling points for this gen, would it still be worth it?
As to lower prices on games, I'm on board with that, same with no paid early release.
Killjoy-NL
Member
It's over. Why do this to yourself?
Astray
Gold Member
The big issue with Xbox as a brand is that a fan likely won't be able to figure out what's the business plan needed to fix it, and Xbox execs aren't innovative enough to find ways to truly change the game to one where they are on top (and when they do try, they flop hard, see Gamepass).
It sounds weird as fuck, I know, but their biggest problem has been listening too much to the Timdogs and NeoGAF posters while not actually looking at what gamer actions have been telling them for over a decade at this point.
It sounds weird as fuck, I know, but their biggest problem has been listening too much to the Timdogs and NeoGAF posters while not actually looking at what gamer actions have been telling them for over a decade at this point.
Killjoy-NL
Member
Well, listening to Gaf is arguably the dumbest thing a company or developer can do.
So what you say makes sense.
Astray
Gold Member
If you look at how Phil Spencer spoke and acted throughout his tenure, you will see that he is firmly rooted in that console warrior mindset.
ResilientBanana
Member
Xbox has only sold close to 27-30 million series consoles. Thats not good for them. I don’t think Xbox should die, there’s plenty of good reasons for them to sell consoles. But they need to go back to their roots and sell 1 SKU that’s amazing and does things no other console can do.
GHG
Member
The amount if units sold is only half the story in this situation.
Under usual circumstances that amount of units would be fine, but if very few people on the platform are actually purchasing games then the proposition becomes entirely different from a developer/publisher perspective.
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Hudo
Member
I think the PS5 has proven that this is not the biggest factor because the PS5 is selling well while having the weakest first-party lineup (still) in Playstation history.
People buy Playstation mostly because all of the third-parties will be there. And that has actually been one of the core business pillars of Playstation since day one.
And nowdays, also being locked into the Playstation ecosystem plays a significant role.
ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
I think that cumulative damage to Xbox is done already (especially brand erosion outside of US and the digital library factor), so the only way to save face and earn money is to embrace 3rd party and stop posturing about hardware.
Xbox will get there eventually, but for corporate culture that Phil created it's very hard to admit defeats. Hence the silly words from Bond about biggest leap in hardware history.
There is also a fact that Dragon Ball: Sparking Zero by BamCo was delisted from Xbox Store 2 weeks ago without any word from the MS or the Bandai, so at least some publishers are already skipping the platform, I guess.
Xbox will get there eventually, but for corporate culture that Phil created it's very hard to admit defeats. Hence the silly words from Bond about biggest leap in hardware history.
There is also a fact that Dragon Ball: Sparking Zero by BamCo was delisted from Xbox Store 2 weeks ago without any word from the MS or the Bandai, so at least some publishers are already skipping the platform, I guess.
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BlackTron
Member
Yeah, like play an exclusive game that can't be played anywhere else. I agree with all of
Fredrik
's points about the steps MS would need to take to return to a healthy console ecosystem, but if anyone thinks or hopes they're actually going to do all that, it's delusional. They're on a different path now.
geary
Member
Digital library and community (in the sense where my friends are). That the reason MS failed...
Give people the possibility to add freely on Xbox library the games bought on PS4/PS5 from 3rd party and you'll see against real competition.
Xbox lost the battle last generation and people, whatever the proposition of Xbox for this gen would be, will not let the their old library on PS4 to die there. That's why they bought a PS5.
The exclusive argument is good for console warring and twitter crazies, but has not the weight in the purchase of a console as people think.
Give people the possibility to add freely on Xbox library the games bought on PS4/PS5 from 3rd party and you'll see against real competition.
Xbox lost the battle last generation and people, whatever the proposition of Xbox for this gen would be, will not let the their old library on PS4 to die there. That's why they bought a PS5.
The exclusive argument is good for console warring and twitter crazies, but has not the weight in the purchase of a console as people think.
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Duchess
Member
Richard Leadbetter has been doing this sort of gaming analysis work and reporting for over 20 years.
geary
Member
I think they have way more expertise than 90% of the people that comment on this forum or twitter.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
I guess the biggest leap comment will only look silly if it's not the biggest leap. What if they manage actually pull off something revolutionary? (maybe something AI or scaler related that really is better than the competition)
Ok I know it's unlikely, but none of us work in MS's research lab.......
As to dragon ball, the couple last games didn't exactly do so well on any console, not sure anyone really cares that much......
I'm not sure why anyone says they can't save face. If they do manage to build and deliver some true AAA games that are exclusive, people will start to want Xboxes. It's that simple.
It's been that way in every generation, on every console. Software drives sales, not repuations. What did Nintendo's reputation do for it in terms of Wii U sales? Or MS's very solid repuation coming off Xbox 360?
Sure brand recognition and loyalty plays a part, but how much do you want to bet all the Sony fans would jump ship faster than you can say Kratos if GOW, GT7, Spiderman, Uncharted, and The Last of Us were all suddenly xbox exclusives?
Nintendo fans would switch in a heartbeat if Zelda and Mario, Animal Crossing and Pokemon were suddenly xbox exclusives and on the new xbox portable only. Suddenly the Nintendo logo wouldn't be enough to buy a switch over an xbox. You get the idea.
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ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
Or, it will be the biggest leap. Technically. Because they will transform Xbox to custom PC sticker. Just imagine Alienware Xbox with 5090.
See? Not a lie. Just bending the information a bit.
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I Love Rock 'n' Roll
Member
It has been somehow "dead" for XBONE for the last 10 years. Support has been dropping a loooooooot since 360 (and the very very very abyssal launch In Europe that DF just does not want to remember did not help at all. I really think this impact game devs FAITH towards MS - this and Kinect for that price), but it's now getting a lot worse.. DF is a decade late, just saying! It was written since PS4.
I feel sorry for XBOX gamers. The "only way" to fix this is for MS to pay to get every 3rd parties games port to XBOX to ensure devs get pay for their job since the attach rate is not that great and is going to be a lot worse in the next months/years. MS would only buy time like that since it's not going to attract new gamers, but only keep actual fans a little more before they all move to PS.
Game Cube had 621 games, PlayStation 2 had 3427 games - that's 5 times more games on PS2 than GC, that means for 1 game on GC you get more than 5 on PS2. Bringing that point only shows how bad the situation was on GC...
I feel sorry for XBOX gamers. The "only way" to fix this is for MS to pay to get every 3rd parties games port to XBOX to ensure devs get pay for their job since the attach rate is not that great and is going to be a lot worse in the next months/years. MS would only buy time like that since it's not going to attract new gamers, but only keep actual fans a little more before they all move to PS.
Game Cube had 621 games, PlayStation 2 had 3427 games - that's 5 times more games on PS2 than GC, that means for 1 game on GC you get more than 5 on PS2. Bringing that point only shows how bad the situation was on GC...
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Fredrik
Member
It’s not a valid option, it’ll kill Xbox as a platform. They could possibly do like Sony and keep releasing their exclusives later on other platforms. But even that is a risk, I don’t play on Playstation today because of the PC ports, my PS5 is a bluray player now.
As I said Gamepass needs to be reworked, it needs be worse there than buying, delayed releases, and as I said they can add content when you buy. They were on the right track with the early premium editions, I went in like that for Starfield (but on Steam but that’s the PC day 1 thing). Making games more expensive is dumb, they should have a lower price and bonus content 1st month when you purchase.
Delayed Gamepass releases will be accepted when there is no alternative. People will moan for 2 weeks and then preorder the games on the store instead, especially if they add content you can’t get on Gamepass.
Use the 5 days early editions they started doing this gen, release them 1-3 months earlier. Can keep the ”Day 1 on Gamepass” slogan like they still do lmao
I don’t do anything to myself I already play everything on PC, this is about how to not bury Xbox as a platform like MS are currently doing with their crap decisions. I understand that they try to spread out to handhelds too now. That’ll likely fail too without the changes I listed.
Third party games were there on Xbox as well and people still bought a Playstation instead. It’s because of the exclusives. And as said, now that the exclusives are on PC I jumped the ship just like I did with Xbox. But Sony still use delays to lure people in. For their sake, let’s hope they don’t change that.
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Astray
Gold Member
The biggest problem with this is: What if they make a 10/10 fully exclusive game and people still don't buy into their platform?Yeah, like play an exclusive game that can't be played anywhere else. I agree with all of
At this stage it's clearly much better to just start off the process of gamemaking with 3P in mind.
YOU PC BRO?!
Member
Why would publishers consider dropping Xbox support? Considering PC dev typically utilises DX12 then porting is a breeze. There have been numerous stories of PC developers getting the Xbox version of a game in a playable state easily in a matter of days. In fact, thats actually the problem... Xbox support is so easy to implement that it is often an afterthought. That likely explains why multiple Xbox Series only technologies haven't been implemented i.e. SFS, DirectML etc.
Angry_Megalodon
Member
If you like JRPGs and Asian games, in general, you need a Playstation. And now the mobile gacha giants are porting to PS5 and skipping XBOX, too. Those games are bigger than anything on the XBOX exclusive catalog. They are not first-party, but still, you can't play them on any other console, only PC. So yes, it's a big factor for console gamers.
It's not about only third parties but third parties + and everything else.
Killjoy-NL
Member
It's futile though. There is no coming back.
ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
Anecdotical, yes, but I personally know two people that are not gamers but bought PS5 just to play Genshin and Star Rail on a bigger screen with a controller.
BlackTron
Member
I disagree that it is so far gone to ever come back. Even Nintendo came back from Wii U. The problems can be sorted, they just lack the awareness or competence to do so. The only way left to solve the problem is to sidestep it by doing what they do best instead, being a third party software company.
Astray
Gold Member
Nintendo changed the game completely with a massive risk that paid off (Nintendo Switch).
They also had a fuckton of brand equity because even during the Wii U days they didn't lose a step in game design.
Microsoft simply doesn't have the IP or brand equity that Nintendo has, and they barely take any real risks since the Xbox One failed.
midnightAI
Member
Of course it's a valid option, yes, as a platform that wouldn't exist any more, but XBox is more than just a platform, they are a publisher and game developer. Sega still exists due to games rather than platform. And I still play on PS5 so I don't have to wait 1-2 (or more) years to play their big exclusives, it's been a bit of a drought from the heavy hitters but that's about to change second half of the gen.It’s not a valid option, it’ll kill Xbox as a platform. They could possibly do like Sony and keep releasing their exclusives later on other platforms. But even that is a risk, I don’t play on Playstation today because of the PC ports, my PS5 is a bluray player now.
They have gone too far with Gamepass and I feel it is much too late to change, it will not go down well with gamers if changes are made to their current model that affects how they get games (such as delayed releases especially if that exact same game is available on other platforms day one). The perception that games are 'free' on gamepass is a huge draw, without that they will lose most subs.
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ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
1. They had 3ds along with Wii U to support the company
2. Wii U games were so good that Switch ports of Wii U library carried the Switch for almost 3 years.
Honestly, I still kinda regret selling my Wii U. It was dorky and strange, but packed with terrific games.
Killjoy-NL
Member
Xbox isn't Nintendo though.
Nintendo had the handheld-market on lock and made a hybrid.
Xbox doesn't have anything to use as leverage.
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Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
Disagree with most of this.
The Switch wasn't a massive risk, imo. It was a doubling down on what had been their most successful part of their business - handheld gaming. Perception may vary, but the Switch is a portable console that also does TV out. Well, except for the Switch consoles that are handheld only.
Your mileage may vary on brand equity, but their brand equity didn't save the Wii U, a massive flop. Their games were there, just like they were with Switch. Moreso on switch, but mostly because the Wii U was dropped so quickly.
Microsoft's brand may not be in as good a spot as it was, but they still do have big game IP to draw upon and given that they've recently bought half the games publishing industry, can draw upon that as well.
You'd be insane to say that Call Of Duty, Fallout, Halo aren't resonant brands. One of them is the one of the biggest gaming brands in the world and the other two are... Oh hang on, two of the biggest gaming brands in the world - they're both big enough that they made successful TV shows using the IP.
Ultimately, you may not like Xbox or their games, but there are plenty of ways that Microsoft could improve Xbox's fortunes by leverage the valuable IP they have in their stable.
Fredrik
Member
What if Returnal sold like 500k? Oh wait, it did. Maybe it’s at a million now, haven’t seen numbers. But do you see Sony close the studio or stop doing exclusives? No. They know that exclusives is why you buy into their ecosystem. It doesn’t even matter that they haven’t released that many new 1st party games yet, people still invest because they know the games will come, eventually. Same thing with Nintendo.
The day Microsoft announce that they’re a third party publisher is the day Xbox as a platform dies, not just the hardware but Xbox as a future service and launcher and whatever plans they have for next decade+.
This generation is over but there is still time to correct things for next generation.
Desprado123
Member
Xbox is the same phase where PC was in 2006-2010, where many developers did not consider PC ports and skip PC release but now PC is the first priority.
Things changed due to multi reason for PC.
1) Steam going digital.
2) MS shifting from DX9 to DX11 in 2009
3) AMD and Nvidia drastically changed their GPU architecture.
4) Going to 64 bits.
5) Intel and AMD going multi core CPUs.
6) Slowly all the porting shifted on PC
7) AMD made all console architecture similar to PC.
My point is that were multi companies involved to chuck out PC from worse phase 2006-2010 to now Golden era but Xbox does not have that luxury unless developers shift their focus totally on Xbox.
Things changed due to multi reason for PC.
1) Steam going digital.
2) MS shifting from DX9 to DX11 in 2009
3) AMD and Nvidia drastically changed their GPU architecture.
4) Going to 64 bits.
5) Intel and AMD going multi core CPUs.
6) Slowly all the porting shifted on PC
7) AMD made all console architecture similar to PC.
My point is that were multi companies involved to chuck out PC from worse phase 2006-2010 to now Golden era but Xbox does not have that luxury unless developers shift their focus totally on Xbox.
Fredrik
Member
No, Xbox is a platform, nothing more or less, and that’ll die through a 3rd party publisher move.
You’re talking about Microsoft Game Studios. That’ll obviously still exist. However, they’ll likely get rid of some smaller studios that don’t make much money that was there just to get other genres on the platform, like that studio there was noise about recently with the community manager that hate white male gamers. Snip snip on that one. But nobody think Microsoft will exit gaming at this point.
Tommi84
Member
They just literally spent SEVENTY BILLION DOLLARS on ONE game studio...
And yoi are telling they csn't put money into games?
W11d
Member
There is some overlap with pc players buying consoles just for exclusives, but majority of console gamers don't give a shit about pc and only choose between ps and xbox.
winjer
Gold Member
That is all wrong. First off, PC is not the first priority for most developers. For some, it is, but that is the exception.
But the reason why now there are so many more console ports to PC, is that consolers now use an X86 CPU with an OoO frontend.
And consoles are also getting more PC games ported to them, because now PCs and consoles share most dev tools, middleware, etc.
They're butchering the original news with this deflection suggesting it was a low selling indie. The original news from GDC/Gi.biz that they're discussing doesn't make it seem like a low selling indie studio is what they're referring to.
“The phrase one major company who released a big game last year said [was], ‘I don’t know why we bothered supporting it’."
" and now you’ve got third-party publishers going, ‘we’re putting in a lot of effort trying to create a Series S version and an X version of a game when, to be honest with you, for us the market is PC and PS5"
“The phrase one major company who released a big game last year said [was], ‘I don’t know why we bothered supporting it’."
" and now you’ve got third-party publishers going, ‘we’re putting in a lot of effort trying to create a Series S version and an X version of a game when, to be honest with you, for us the market is PC and PS5"
ShaiKhulud1989
Gold Member
And it was probably BamCo.