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ARROW Season 3 |OT| Welcome to the New Age
- Thread starter Clevinger
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Wiktor
Member
It feels a bit like you're not complaining about women, but about what kind of show this is to be honest. This is a superhero show with one lead, not ensemble show. If everybody could do everything without Oliver there would be no need for superhero. It's the same thing with males in this show. Unless you're a villain you just won't be able to compare. In fact, as far as good guys go Arrow has far more strong women in their ranks than males.
Expecting Moira to use her intellect and resources to eliminate threat from Merlyn would be ridiculous and an example of bad writting after it was established just how big of a threat he was. Moira was strong and independent and regularly tried to push her own agenda using whatever mean necessary. Just because she didn't always succeed doesn't make her weak, especially considering she was a human going against people who become more than that.
Nope. Black Canary is a strong and independant female character. She's not tied directly to Ollie and has her own life that she is dealing with on her own. It's not say she's unstoppable or can do everything herself, but she can do things herself.
What major task has Moira done that didn't require the aid of someone else or wasn't motivated by her being a mother? What is her truly independent accomplishment? What is her agenda beyond "Keep kids safe"? The show goes out of it's way to define Moira as a product of her family and not much that I can think of more.
And I don't accept that 'there's just no way she can do this' excuse. It's fiction, anything can happen, you just have to put it in the right context. They could have set something up before, given him another weakness or pressure point. Or hell, have Moira go (or pretend to go) psycho, telling her that she will personally kill thea before she risk her facing the truth. It's on the spot and not perfect, but for this show, it doesn't have to be. It'd definitely be an independent solution.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I was thinking the other night that they could bring Cyrus Gold back as Grundy but it'd probably be on The Flash. Don't remember if the timing would work out that well but it seems like there's about 24 hours (Flash pilot kinda spoiler
judging by how it was handled in the pilot unless Barry took a trip to Starling and back that day
Wiktor
Member
I don;t think of it as excuse. I see it as a good reason not to do it. There's nothing wrong with playing to your genre's strenghts. Of course, it's always nice to see somebody try something different. Even if they ultimatelly fail that failure often is quite interesting. But that's not what this genre is about and those types of attempts should be just very very rare exceptions from the rule. Otherwise you risk loosing a large part of what makes superhero comics unique and entertaining.
I don't think that's how art works. Being creative and turning weaknesses to strength is what art is about. There are plenty of stories that go in contrast to what the genre is traditionally about and succeed. You are supposing that a superhero story where the characters are deep and multilayered and where it's philosphical or has social commentary is possible, but shouldn't be attempted because they're doomed to fail somehow, or that it will hurt the medium to have it done too much.
I think the problem is that you look at genre's as a roadmap that writers follow. That's not how I think it works. Writers don't say "I'm going to write an X story, taking no risks with anything.' Writers as far as I know just try to write good stories, however they can. Genre's are just the result of certain things being a certain way because that's the way it usually works when certain tropes are used together. The roads didn't appear before man walked in the forest. The roads are there because man walked through a forest that way enough times.
So, what your concerned about, it's never going to happen. The medium will learn new tricks and grow from it, but superhero stories aren't going to stop being superhero stories for it.
Wiktor
Member
And tell me...exactly what male characters you could say the same thing about in Arrow besides Oliver? Diggle? Nope. Chesthair? Definitely not. Walter? Lol. Deadshot is pretty much the only strong male outside of Oliver.
If you look at good guys camp women outmatch men easily. Even if you discount Moira on the grounds of her being driven by motherly role, you still got Shado, Sarah, Helena, Amanda and Nyssa.. On male side you have pretty much only Oliver, Deadshot and a possibility of Roy upgrading to respectable level.
Seems like a terrible idea. Makes Merlyn turn from a supervillain into a small weak evil man, undermining the whole first season in the process.
Sure, it would be nice to see Moira neutralize someone, but Merlyn? Too much out of her league.
Also, that threat could have logically resulted in only one thing: Merlyn killing Moira on the spot.
TacticalFox88
Banned
"Strong female characters"
*sigh*
Why can't they just be great strong characters in general? So long as we have this divide it'll always be this way.
*sigh*
Why can't they just be great strong characters in general? So long as we have this divide it'll always be this way.
Wiktor
Member
Turning weaknesses to strenghts isn't tthe only thing art can be about though.
The problem is that superhero stories are inherently silly. You can't escape that. That's an simply a constant quality of the genre, like comedy being funny or action movies having..well..action. For superhero story to work the viewer must be willing to ignore some illogical elements and just go with the flow. And this will always taint the psychological depth of characters and the weight of social commentary. It doesn't mean you can't overcome it, but it's still fighting against the nature of the genre.
And if you do attempt those things it will always be at expense of action heavy entertainment. There's no going around it. Every issue has only so many pages. Superhero stories are mostly good dumb fun and there's nothing wrong with it. As I already said, I don't have problems with some people attempting to do more. But if everybody would attempt it, then there would be no longer place for that good dumb fun and that's not something you can find in many non-superhero comics. So it's would be bassicaly like wiping out an entertainment form. I can get deept and social commentary from countless other comic books, can't say the same about dumb fun action.
See, now you're speaking my language, because you're hitting on an important point: Sexism doesn't just hurt women. It hurts men too. Slade is a vastly less interesting character than he would have been because his motvation is reduced to "You stole mah woman!"
But as to your question, Diggle has had a few episodes to himself, and has defied olliver on mutliple occasions, and works for his own reasons. Felicity, in comparison, works for a vague sense of justice and because she's hot for Ollie, and FAR more development is spent on the latter than the former, despite them having fairly identical roles (in that they're both support, they just manifest it differently) within the team. Walter is a minor character, but if we're including minor characters, lots of villains, like Vertigo and the dollmaker and various villains work for their own motives and agendas, independantly.
It's not about being wholly autonomic that you are like unto a god that doesn't need to interact with anyone at all, but just that you can be defined by more than just your relationship with someone else. Slade as he existed in season 2 entirely defined by his shallow and pathetic one sided romance with Shado, who herself is not defined by much except as an emotional pressure point between Yao Fe, Ollie and Slade.
This is only true if you believe Moira to be an inherently weak character, which is the whole problem here.
"I've hired an assassin that is ordered to kill Thea if I don't check back with him every week with a special code I know. So you can kill me, and thus kill your daughter, or you can fuck right off."
And look, even if you can find a hole in this particular strategy, that's not the point. It doesn't have to be perfect to work, just like how Moira's gambit to Slade by offering herself didn't need to work. Slade could have (and really should have) killed Thea regardless of her sacrifice, but it worked because the characters here are fucking idiots. Even if there is a hole here, that does not make this not a viable option for the writers to take just to make Moira truly independantly strong, rather than just strong by association.
Okay....yes, they're silly, but that's not the limitation of Superheroes as I see it.
Watchmen, the comic I see as the best the medium can offer, is silly as fuck. It has a naked blue god whose girlfriend is leaving him. It has a giant squid that brains all off new york. It has all the traditional aspects of superhero comics that comics are mocked for. It has 'dumb fun' as you call it. And it's still stands head and shoulders above most works of art, comics or otherwise.
Silliness isn't a limitation, it's an element, to be used in various ways. The limitations I refer to are the implausible aspects of superhero stories that involve questioning how Batman can get around an entire frikken city in one night. That's not silly, it's just an impossible aspect you have to buy. Even watchmen falls prey to these conventions, because there is no reason someone shouldn't have been able to just put a bullet in Rorschach's head at any given point in his career. That's what makes superheroes unworkable in the same sense as the soprano's or breaking bad, which are shows that live dramatically and on the edge of realism, but the vast majority of occurences that happen are plausible and could happen.
And there is silliness in the soprano's as well. I can name more examples from breaking bad, but I recall some scenes of Soprano's that are just ridiculous, even from the opening. Like how Tony was having the time of his life running over some guy who owed him money or whatever, having the time of his life. That was simultaneously hilarious and horrifying, just like how the giant squid is both silly and pure horror.
Because it would be an act of denial to pretend that characters in arrow are on a level playing field. Granted, I don't like the terminology, because there's strong (as in well written) and strong (as in powerful and possessing their own agency within the context of the story) and they mean different things. I wouldn't say most characters in arrow are particularly well written, male or female, but the males are predominantly more powerful and independent than females. Females are victimized far more often, and so on. To try and pretend that there is no difference in how the show handles genders is just being willfully blind. If it didn't, yeah, I would just be complaining about the lack of quality writing and not paying attention to the gender roles, but that's not the case.
I think your main problem is expecting HBO/FX quality out of CW
you have no one to blame but yourself
Okay, first off, I'm demanding quality that they are incapable of delivering. I know I'm not, because at various points in the show, they HAVE delivered it. They've done various moments of reveal, foreshadowing, action, what have you right. I know they can write good female characters because they wrote Black Canary. I just want that quality to be spread more evenly through the show
Second, I don't think it's solid logic. I've stopped expecting the show to take off for a while. I know what it is. I am just calling it out on what it is.
in response to that post I'm just gonna quote this
get this gaming side nonsense out of here. who cares if its a female or male? what makes it even better is that the men are worse off in this show, but of course you're white knighting.
get this gaming side nonsense out of here. who cares if its a female or male? what makes it even better is that the men are worse off in this show, but of course you're white knighting.
This. I honestly enjoyed season 1 more than season 2, season 2 looked awesome with Slade and the first few episodes, and then it just went to... nothing. Arrow does a good job of disguising filler, and when you're watching the episodes, it's fun and entertaining Arrow, but later on you step back and say, "So what the fuck happened during those 24 episodes? And you can pretty much summarize that in one sentence and start to pick out all the plot holes and the stupidity."
Still looking forward to season 3 though because like you said, the show is just fun, even if it does kind of suck in retrospect.
Yep, same exact feeling. I still watch the show, get excited, and in the moment it's awesome. Then I sit down and think... and it falls apart lol. I think for season 3 I'm just going to stop trying to nitpick or over-analyze and just enjoy the action and the goofy drama.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Are we there yet?
Wreck-It Ralph
Member
When did they play the "Welcome to the New Age" song in Arrow? I don't remember ever hearing it. But then, it was probably the first time I ever heard the song, so I just didn't take notice of it.
I remember hearing it in the pilot of The 100. That was exactly the point that I turned that show off.
I remember hearing it in the pilot of The 100. That was exactly the point that I turned that show off.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Wreck-It Ralph
Member
In season 1? Why are we just now using it as the thread title then?
because there was a period where the season 2 thread went collectively insane making Radioactive memes
Still gives me the chills.
the_firewithin
Member
Be gone with you. Swag Wilson alone was better then entire s1
BronsonLee
Member
I missed this. And I want to see it again.
Also goddamnit Veelk you did this with my Arrow thread too, get your own!
PHOENIXZERO
Member
I think this is the last one he made but there were a few previous versions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99S3ZWCf2ps
EDIT: Check his channel for the rest of them.
The female is there to note that one is talking about female characters specifically in the context of a conversation.
This is a seriously asinine complaint every time it comes up. This isn't "creating a divide;" it's basic language at work.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
I'm not gonna comment on the rest, but I feel the necesity to do it on this one.
I don't think that particular flashback is to show how of a good mother Moira is. Rather is to show how much she loves her sons, to the point of doing anything in her hand to protect them. One of her phrases in that flashback is:"As mothers we'll have to do what's necesary to give our sons the best" (something like that), she's trying to do what's best for his son, or rather what she believes is the best for his son, since she knows letting Oliver keep that relationship and try to raise his son, could led to a very unhappy live for everyone involved. Hell you can see at the end of the flashback, how much relieved is Oliver knowing he's not going to be a father.
I think the show never stops drawing Moira as a very cuestionable human being, but also is very consistent on that very thing: She loves her sons above all. She might not be a good mother in the strict sense of the word, but she will protect them by any means necessary, even with questionable methods and decisions.
The flashback presents that duality on Moira perfectly.
If that was the intention, then the scene is utterly pointless, because it offers no new insight on her character. We already know she defines herself as a mother pretty much exclusively. We've known it since the show began. The scene, for the purposes of conveying the information you suggest, is worthless. All it does is add an example of how far she will go.
The only relevant new information is how absolutely damaging she is to her children specifically because of her love. That Ollie is relieved that he's not a father is irrelevent, because it was his responsibility to be one and it immoral to me to deny him that responsibility whether he wants it or not. As I said, I cannot emphasize enough how evil I view this action to be. This isn't questionable, ambiguous, debatable. This is flat out the worst thing I've ever seen her do. But I feel the scene is meant to emphasize how good a mother she is, if nothing else. If not a good person as a whole, she protects her children to the point of exiling her fucking grandchild, and I feel the fact that this scene is placed right before her noble sacrifice and with how receptively happy Ollie is shown to be (as well as the fact that she didn't 'force' the mother to accept the money or use any threats or whatever) is meant to convey that her mentality is a good and postiive thing. Plus, the fact that this random incident wasn't relevent to the season in any other way except to say something about Moira's character supports that. I don't think in their last moments of noble sacrifice, the writers intended to inform the audience 'oh, btw, Moira is a monster'. It just doesn't have that tone. Maybe it would if Ollie knew about it and was conflicted between hating his mother and loving her, but that's not the case.
Good parenting isn't this. It isn't protecting your children from any and all harm at all costs. That's just putting them in a cage where you refuse to let them grow up. It is teaching them useful skills that will get them through life. It is teaching them how to deal with hardships. It is teaching them how to stand for good things. It is teaching them how to hold compassion for others. And it is teaching them to take responsibiltiy for the decisions they make, so that they can learn from the bad and grow to make good choices. Good parents don't protect their children at all costs, because 'all costs' includes, paradoxically, hurting them and other innocents, as Moira has done time and time again.
But the show makes it out to be a good thing. Even when it harms the characters, it is meant to be a good thing because it comes from a place of love. Every time any character was hurt by some other character, the comforting line was "Yeah, X isn't perfect, but he/she loves you." It's what diggle told Thea when trying to convince her to forgive Moira. It's what Ollie says to Thea in an attempt to forgive Robert Queen for cheating on his family. It's what Tommy is told to have him try and think better of his father. It's clear that the show supports this mentality. I feel I made it clear that I do not buy this justification at all, but nowhere else moreso than here. That action was flat out disgusting, and it should be acknowledged as such. It's not to say that it makes Moira or whoever irredeemable characters (which I personally don't believe in) but there should be no ambiguity over actions like these: They are unquestionably, unambiguously wrong.
That scene really soured me on the whole show. I can take bad writing where the characters are just stupid and annoying. But now, when I think of this scene, I feel supporting this show would be supporting an ideal that is fundamentally immoral. And that, more than anything else, makes me want to stop watching.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Yeah, but she's dead now, so whatevs
I get no satisfaction from that. It's a fallacy that fans think the death of a character they dislike solves anything. The problems of the character are in the writing, not the character itself. And I can tell you this for sure, we'll get a "I am keeping you ignorant of something hugely important that you have every right to know because I love you" scene somewhere in Season 3 because it's the writer's MO. Moira just happened to be the worst propagator of it.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
I wonder how they're going to reduce Ras al Ghul's motives to "women in refrigerators" this season.
But seriously. Can't wait for this season to start.
But seriously. Can't wait for this season to start.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Jorok Goldblade
Member
"I once had a wife... my great love. She was... taken from me."
Oh God- Nolan beat them to the punch, didn't he?
"I once had a wife... my great love. She was... taken from me."
Wait... Was that seriously Ra's motivation in Begins? I can't remember. So even Merlyn's villain motivation is a Nolan ripoff?
Yall are shameless, Arrow writers.
One thing I think Arrow is doing right, something even Batman stories haven't done much of, is elaborate on the organization. We're getting information on the lower rungs of Ra's organization and I think that's cool.
But yeah, I will shit myself if Ra's motives aren't revealed to be "I'm doing this horrible thing because I'm driven by my love for my daughter/wife/sister/mother/someotherwoman." It'd be refreshing if he had his more comic faithful goals of just believing this is the way to make the world a better place in general.
The difference is that Nolan didn't make this the same motivation for every character he had. Batman is motivated by his parent's deaths and idealism, Joker is motivated by fuck knows what, Gordon is motivated by notions of justice, etc." Context matters.
Love for a female character isn't a bad motive my itself. It's just tiring in the case of Arrow because that's the overwhelming motivation for most of the characters.
But yes, the DK saga is also guilty of damseling women and some sexism. It's just easier to ignore because the quality of writing is much higher and it's far less frequent.
A lot of Arrow is just the writers cribbing stuff from Batman stories, including wholesale villains, since Arrow's rouges gallery is sparse.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
Arrow has two good villains on his own - Count Vertigo and Merlyn.
Everybody else is borrowed from Batman or the Teen Titans.
And Vertigo is just a Druggie Joker rather than the Dr. Doom-esque villain he is in the comics.
I'll laugh my ass off if Bane shows up and says "I will break the Arrow!"
call_kotaku
Member
I gotta say, even though Arrow S2 is incredibly similar to the plot of DKR, I was way more frustrated at the plot contrivances and general stupidity in that movie than in Arrow, I guess because Nolan movies take themselves very seriously but Arrow is just schlock performed by super attractive people.
Everything from after the Bane fight was just a downhill slide, and the second half of S2 of Arrow after the Deathstroke appearance took a similar dip in writer IQ, but it didn't make me roll my eyes constantly. The reveal of the villains' secret motivations were equally stupid and both undercut their character development up to that point, but the final Deathstroke confrontation in S2 was much more engaging than the final Bane confrontation in DKR.
I guess it shows how much more forgiving I am of TV.
I'm a fairly regular defender of TDKR, actually. It's flawed, I won't deny that....but the stupidities and contrivances aren't worse than a lot of the stupid stuff that happened in BB and TDK.
What your describing is part of the general 3 act structure, where the hero is beaten and reaches their lowest point.
Bane's motivations (and I fucking hate it when people assume that he was in love with Talia. There was nothing suggesting that except people's natural tendency to assume that people of opposite sex that aren't related must be fucking) may have not been elaborated on, but it served as a good mirror to Bruce's own method of operations. The same way Batman, Alfred, Lucius and Gordon work with Bruce, Bane embodied all those things to Talia (and why I reject the suggestion that they're love interest to each other. Bane knew her from as a child, and I'd rather that the love he feels for her be paternal), and when Talia's motivations were revealed and keeping in mind how TDKR was about Bruce saying goodbye to each of his associates and alter ego, she served as strong foil to the Bruce's journey though the 3 movies. And it's not like we ever get a deep reason for why Alfred loves Bruce except for the obvious: he is his surrogate father. If Bane and Talia are the dark mirror to that, I can accept that he just sees himself as her father.
TDKR's fault is not any of the content for the most part, but the lack of care to presentation. The actual build up and confrontation between Batman and Bane was very engaging for me, but the action choreography was awful. Arrow didn't make me care enough about the characters to care about their confrontation, but on a purely visual level, Arrow beats out Batman's fighting easily. Talia is a perfectly fine villain, but everyone just posts that stupid gif of how she dies to dismiss any argument that she could have merit as an antagonist. I agree, that death scene was awful (the editing of the movie in general was a major problem) and Nolan deserves to be called out on how he fell asleep on that part of the job but Talia and Bane work better as villains in terms of content than people give credit for,
In comparison, Deathstroke's connections are primarily their love for women and to a lesser extent the fact that Ollie is trained by him. It would have been better if they focused more on the latter, because it symbolically represents Ollie's growth in strength and as a Hero. They tried to do something like that regarding the whole no kill thing, but given that Slade never really cared about him stopping killing. That was just another uncertainty he wanted to use to hurt Ollie in any way he could, however pettily. If he found out Ollie had trouble choosing between pancakes and waffles as his favorite breakfast, he'd sneer with distain and lecture about his lack of resolve and how weak he is. The fact is that if Slade was going to go this far over Shado, she needed to have been more than just the asian chick Ollie was porking while on the island for it to be meaningful.
Like, off the top of my head, what if shado and Slade were together instead. We go into his backstory about how few people have accepted him, but Shado does and is one of the few. And instead of people going along with the notion that Ollie holds any responsibility, it really is just the miracuru that twisted Slade's mind into blaming him. Ollie's antagonism with him then turns into him putting down a sick friend, who he struggles on whether Slade is to blame for his actions or if it's the Miracuru that drove him insane. And this way, his emotional grief is more legitimate than him going nuts over a random crush. It would be a struggle between forgiveness and prevention, because Slade's innocence due to his insanity is a legitimate issue vs the damage he is causing. In addition, they can use the insanity to do cool things like have him comment on how he disapproves of Ollie's no kill rule, even though he has no reason to care if Ollie kills or not, which a twisted way of him saying he wants Ollie to end him while emphasizing the teacher-student element.
Instead, it's all about how Slade had his woman taken away from him, a woman he barely interacted with, so he spends the whole time trying to inflict the same pain on him. It's simple revenge and there's nothing surrounding it to make it more interesting. The struggle Ollie has with the blame of Shado is too asinine to invest in. His mentorship with Ollie and his interest in Ollie's no kill rule is not emphasized enough to be meaningful. And the fact that he goes about his revenge so wishy washy takes away from his menace. I'll happily take Bane and Talia over him.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Well, the new Vertigo is the first legacy villain we've come across, which is cool.
It'd be really cool if the second Vertigo is eventually imprisoned or killed, and then we get a third Vertigo, who is basically this dude:
call_kotaku
Member
Yeah, I don't disagree that DKR wasn't any more blatant about contrivances or plot stupidity than any other comic book movie, but it was just much harder to overlook because the movie had nothing else going for it. I really resent the portrayal of Talia in that movie because it confuses and negates a lot of the excellent build-up for Bane, and also because her performance was lackluster and uninteresting. She has none of the screen presence or charisma of Ra's in BB, or Joker/Harvey Dent in TDK, or even Merlyn and Slade in Arrow, so it became really hard to care about her motivations or her decisions. I guess the movie made perfect emotional sense and made me care up until that point, because afterwards everything that happened earlier just felt pointless and none of Batman's achievements really mattered. I guess the main point is that, would DKR have been a better movie if Talia wasn't in it?
The bat-copter was by far the most offensive thing in it, though. Not because it violates physics or whatever, but because it solely existed so the writers wouldn't have to think about how Batman gets from one plot point to the next because he has a magic bat-carpet. The worst part is that it didn't even look cool or do anything badass.
With Slade, I feel like what the showrunners wanted to go for was Mirakuru amplifying your negative emotions and Shado's death was just an excuse for Slade to act in a destructive manner, but nothing in the setup or execution was really convincing in that respect. I think a lot of that would've been fixed if the decision Oliver made was obviously cowardly or weak, because Slade would've had a legitimate reason to feel betrayed and Oliver would've had a character arc in order to overcome Slade by combating his own guilt instead of just defeating him by punching him a bunch of times. Manu doing everything with confidence and swagger really did help in allowing people to overlook just how stupid Slade's motivations were, though.
Nope. Talia is an important part of the story, and you take her away, the parallels between them change. From there, there's no telling what kind of shape the story will take with Bane as the main antagonist or if it'd be better. I will agree that they should have found a better actress for Talia, but that's it. It feels like she and Hardy were chosen just because Nolan likes working with them rather than that they fit the roles. Also, in no way is Bane's achievements lessened for the fact that he is working under Talia, unless you similarly think Alfred, Lucious, and Gordon are pathetic for working with Batman.
And what TDKR had going for it is that it is the first story I know of that ended Bruce's stint as Batman where he gave up being Batman willingly, which is I feel is the perfect ending for him to have. The movie never forgot that no matter how badass being batman was, no sane person would ever actually want to do it, and that ultimately lead to a more mature telling of the stories than most of them are.
Can't agree with you there. The Batwing (They call it the Bat in the movie. I don't know why, it's the Batwing.) was awesome.
If they were going for that, they shouldn't have had every character agreeing that Ollie was the one who holds responsibility for Shado's death. He doesn't, but the show doesn't seem acknowledge that. The best they offer him is that he was in a shitty position where there was no right choice, but that's different from saying he isn't at all to blame whatsoever.
Slade even lost his swagger once he became deathstroke. Before, he emoted and felt like someone who just talked with an awesome accent. After Miracuru, he just talks in this hushed, tense monotone voice all the fucking time, even in normal situations, so what was once swag became silly. He's got permanent Batman voice. Dude can't order a coffee without it sounding like he wants to rip the waiter's throat out. It's hilarious, but it's not intimidating anymore due to overuse.
haha, same.
"I once had a wife... my great love. She was... taken from me."
Wait... Was that seriously Ra's motivation in Begins? I can't remember. So even Merlyn's villain motivation is a Nolan ripoff?
Yall are shameless, Arrow writers.
WarrenMax007
Member
Your loss. The 100 gets so good. First 3 episodes are pretty meh, then it improves a little and second half of the season is very very good.
Cornballer
Member
- THR: 'Arrow' Boss Tackles 10 Big Season 3 Questions *some spoilers*
After reading that I am still looking forward to the crossover the most.
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