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[kevm3]

Nice try, but the people who went through the test were.... drum roll, audiophiles.

By the way, the discussion is only about electronics. Loudspeakers do have noticeable differences.

These are the kind of setups the guys at Matrix HiFi use for their blind listening tests: http://matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec.htm

So in other words, pretty much all receivers sound the same and a low-tier $70 Sony would sound the same as your Yamaha?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

So in other words, pretty much all receivers sound the same and a low-tier $70 Sony would sound the same as your Yamaha?

Told ya already, any decently designed electronic will sound the same - there's a point beyond which our ears can't make the difference. Receivers, pre+amp combos, whatever... once you match the outputs you won't notice a difference unless you reach the point where there isn't enough watts for the sound pressure you want.

There's people out there doing blind tests and the result is always the same.

Of couse I understand that's a hard truth to swallow after dropping god knows how much money into 100 watts but...

Heck, if you wanna go really deep about it, Roger Russell one of lead designers at McIntosh and a terrific engineer has a really comprehensive write up on his page why specialty speaker wire is meaningless. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[Alucrid]

Before I upgrade my bookshelf speakers to monitors I'm probably going to grab a sub first. Mainly because I don't have the room to go ahead and buy an amp and monitors at the moment. What should I be looking at? Probably want 10-12 inch and definitely something that will be able to keep up with a fairly expensive set of monitors for the future.

 

[kevm3]

Before I upgrade my bookshelf speakers to monitors I'm probably going to grab a sub first. Mainly because I don't have the room to go ahead and buy an amp and monitors at the moment. What should I be looking at? Probably want 10-12 inch and definitely something that will be able to keep up with a fairly expensive set of monitors for the future.

Around how much are you looking to spend on the sub?

 

[Alucrid]

Around how much are you looking to spend on the sub?

Probably around half the price of what I'm going to want to spend on monitors I guess...~600? Can be more if the quality is that substantial.

 

[kevm3]

For a musical sub, around that price I'd wait for a used Rythmik to come up.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1298235656&/Rythmik-F-15-

That one is $700 for a 15 inch sub. I have the F12G. If you search around, you can probably find one for around $550 to $600. Rythmiks have a reputation as one of the most musical subs around, especially for the price.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1193109

 

[Alucrid]

For a musical sub, around that price I'd wait for a used Rythmik to come up.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1298235656&/Rythmik-F-15-

That one is $700 for a 15 inch sub. I have the F12G. If you search around, you can probably find one for around $550 to $600. Rythmiks have a reputation as one of the most musical subs around, especially for the price.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1193109

Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and keep my eye out for one then. What edge does the 15'' have over the 12''?

 

[kevm3]

Thanks for the info. I'll go ahead and keep my eye out for one then. What edge does the 15'' have over the 12''?

The main difference between the 15" and the 12" is the 15" is more efficient due to the bigger drivers, so you will be getting more output at a given output level. The 15" has more output overall. I have the F12G which has a different driver and allows you to crossover at a higher level.

Here is a quote direct from the website:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/selection_guide.html

The main difference between our 12" and 15" subwoofers are size and output. Both have the same amount of power. Due to the larger radiating area of the 15" driver, 3 dB more output on continuous signals can be achieved. Dynamic output for short bursts can be as much as 5 dB greater. For bass frequencies, a difference of 5 dB will sound almost twice as loud*.

Multiple 12" subwoofers may also be preferred for their room integration. Not only are they smaller and fit more easily into available space, multiple subwoofers can also be placed to better optimize interaction with room standing waves. Some in fact use 3 or more subwoofers for this purpose.

Do 12" drivers sound faster than 15" drivers?

Prior to the release of our finished subwoofers, we found our 12" products had a slight sound quality edge on the 15" subwoofers. However, better 15" drivers have bridged the gap. As a result, sound quality is no longer a reason to choose a smaller sub. We recommend that customers base their choice on other factors.

 

[Alucrid]

The main difference between the 15" and the 12" is the 15" is more efficient due to the bigger drivers, so you will be getting more output at a given output level. The 15" has more output overall. I have the F12G which has a different driver and allows you to crossover at a higher level.

Here is a quote direct from the website:

Okay, thanks for that. I think I'll look for 12" then just because I won't be using these in very large rooms for the next few years.

 

[The Lamonster]

Best 2.1 PC speakers in the ~$150-200 price range. GO!

anyone?

 

[Nemo]

I use a bunch of KRK monitors at work, mp3s sound clear as hell through them. Love it. Haven't tried games tho

 

[nitewulf]

anyone?

a bit above, but these are your best bet.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?p=swan-m200mkii&products_id=80, this 2.0 is much better than many 2.1 systems.

 

[giga]

anyone?

<150

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?products_id=89
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUXJCO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

<200

http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-2
http://cgi.ebay.com/M-Audio-BX5a-bx...ltDomain_0&hash=item45f4aaac17#ht_2881wt_1141

<250

Two of these: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GoyIVZ...ack-grille.html?tp=186&source=pjn&subid=18097 + http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00026BQJ6/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Or some other cheap vintage or Sherwood receiver.

 

[kevm3]

If you're in need of a power conditioner, this is a very sweet deal: APC S15 for $250 new shipped... This unit is normally priced at $1,500:

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/reviews/753163336/#Reviews

I went ahead and purchased it... Want to make sure my equipment is protected while hopefully avoiding a serious degradation in sound quality like I experienced when using one of those surge protectors I purchased at Wal-Mart. We'll see.

 

[The Lamonster]

a bit above, but these are your best bet.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?p=swan-m200mkii&products_id=80, this 2.0 is much better than many 2.1 systems.

<150

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php?products_id=89
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000MUXJCO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

<200

http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-2
http://cgi.ebay.com/M-Audio-BX5a-bx...ltDomain_0&hash=item45f4aaac17#ht_2881wt_1141

<250

Two of these: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-GoyIVZ...ack-grille.html?tp=186&source=pjn&subid=18097 + http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00026BQJ6/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Or some other cheap vintage or Sherwood receiver.

Thanks guys, I'll probably get something in February. Think I should come back and ask again at that time? Or does speaker technology not move that fast?

 

[kevm3]

Thanks guys, I'll probably get something in February. Think I should come back and ask again at that time? Or does speaker technology not move that fast?

Speaker technology doesn't really change all that fast, so as long as they still have those, you should be fine.

 

[thesoapster]

Nice try, but the people who went through the test were.... drum roll, audiophiles.

By the way, the discussion is only about electronics. Loudspeakers do have noticeable differences.

These are the kind of setups the guys at Matrix HiFi use for their blind listening tests: http://matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec.htm

Right.

I only tested my two amps (both which I use) on the same pair of speakers. I can hear the difference between them, *shrug*

 

[whatsinaname]

Any suggestions for active 2.0 for the computer in the 200$ price range? Am looking to move from the Swans M10. (A2 and Bx5A are two sets I am considering.)


(Also, anyone looking to buy a used Swans M10 set?)

 

[Archer]

What does GAF think of Orb Audio?

Quality audio? Or merely eye candy?

 

[Dice]

I don't know about their sound but they are ugly.

 

[kevm3]

Finally will have a chance to add tubes to my system. I recently purchased a used Kora Hermes tube DAC. I will finally get to see what all the fuss is about. Can't wait to compare with my current DAC.

 

[Veritas_]

Quick question to anyone who might know more than I do.

I've been looking around at upgrading my PC speakers. (Using BOSE Companion 3's currently) And I've narrowed my choices down to a few, including the Klipsch Promedia 2.1's. I also just noticed that they're on sale at Best Buy, and out of stock on the Klipsch site. Being something like 10 years old at this point, I figure they're do for an update/replacement eventually. But they've also gone on clearance before a couple of times.

I know Logitech just discontinued their Z-2300's (now replaced by the Z623, wasn't considering either of these anyways) so maybe there's a round of refreshes going on?

Curious to hear your advice or thoughts.

Also,

Any suggestions for active 2.0 for the computer in the 200$ price range?

Have you looked at the Swans/HiVi D1080MKII08? -LINK- Considering that you have the M10's, I figure you have, but I wanted to ask anyways.

I'd love to pick up the M10's, but my desk is too small.

 

[Jeramii]

iam using those babys

fucking love everything about them. Hama Kardon Soundstrick II

love these also. i have mine hooked up to an airport express so i can airplay to my kitchen. they are located on top of my cabinets to give me nice filling music to listen to while i cook. its nice because they are out of danger, and there are no visible wires. just these nice, distraction free speakers that blend right in.

 

[mr stroke]

Quick question to anyone who might know more than I do.

I've been looking around at upgrading my PC speakers. (Using BOSE Companion 3's currently) And I've narrowed my choices down to a few, including the Klipsch Promedia 2.1's. I also just noticed that they're on sale at Best Buy, and out of stock on the Klipsch site. Being something like 10 years old at this point, I figure they're do for an update/replacement eventually. But they've also gone on clearance before a couple of times.

I know Logitech just discontinued their Z-2300's (now replaced by the Z623, wasn't considering either of these anyways) so maybe there's a round of refreshes going on?

Curious to hear your advice or thoughts.

Also,



Have you looked at the Swans/HiVi D1080MKII08? -LINK- Considering that you have the M10's, I figure you have, but I wanted to ask anyways.

I'd love to pick up the M10's, but my desk is too small.

I had the Klipsch Pro Medias and while they sound good for PC speakers, I advise against them. Most of the Pro Media systems have shitty amps(check the huge thread at HardOcp)
and will die on you(mine did)

I would suggest spending a tad more for some monitors

I went from the Pro Medias to a pair of M Audio monitors+a cheap sub and it sounds night and day different. So much cleaner and louder

 

[kevm3]

Anyone in need of a high quality DAC?
I'm selling the Audio-GD DAC19 MK3 for $335, paypal fees and shipping included. A used one most recently sold on Head-Fi for $450:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/526066/fs-audio-gd-dac-19mk3-110v-with-pmd100

so this is a fantastic offer.

Read a review here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/435669/review-of-audio-gd-dac-19mk3

VERY nice DAC, but I just recently upgraded, so I'm letting my speaker brethren get a shot at it first before I put it up on the headphone side and eventually head-fi or emotiva forums.

 

[Death Dealer]

By the way, the discussion is only about electronics. Loudspeakers do have noticeable differences.

But amplifiers have measurable differences.

Speakers and room acoustics are undoubtedly more important than amplification. But in a sufficiently revealing system, amps do impart subtle differences to the stereo sound. I can tell the difference between a 300B single ended triode and a solid state MOSFET.

As James Bongiorno said, it's not just the specs but the character of the distortion. For example, one amp with lower THD may sound worse than another "lesser'' amp if due to topology, it can't maintain precise phase accuracy. An amp with a slow slew rate may sound sluggish and leave an overhang to a low bass tempo. One amp with less damping factor may not as precisely control a woofer as another, even if they are both playing at the same dB. Sometimes it not even a matter of which is better, but what you like. A slightly deeper soundstage versus an amp that has slightly more treble "air".

I wonder how many people that claim ALL amps sound the same at equal volume have ever A/B'ed equipment in a well set up, truly "Hi-Fi" system. Not just some ad hoc test with unfamiliar equipment in a room with decent but not state of the art speakers. Like the other guy said, sometimes you have to know what to listen for.
It's all about synergy.

I am skeptical towards the value of high end digital sources. I think a $500 SACD player should theoretically sound 95% as good as a $10,000 Wadia. Much of that I think is simply over-engineered.

Analog on the other hand, demands you throw a lot of money at it. A $500 record player doesn't come close to a $5000 one.

 

[nitewulf]

analog is electro-mechanical, so precision matters. the more precisely enginereed the more accurate the sound...from the stylus/cartridge/tonearm to the platter/drive mechanism. it really amazes me at times, how such a high resolution system was conceived so long ago, and works so well given how many moving parts are involved, and how fast and accurate the system has to be working together in order to achieve high quality sound.

and yeah, i absolutely agree with your amp assessments, bandwidth and THD never tell the whole story, bandwidth doesn't indicate pace/speed/dynamics.

 

[Veritas_]

I had the Klipsch Pro Medias and while they sound good for PC speakers, I advise against them. Most of the Pro Media systems have shitty amps(check the huge thread at HardOcp)
and will die on you(mine did)

I would suggest spending a tad more for some monitors

I went from the Pro Medias to a pair of M Audio monitors+a cheap sub and it sounds night and day different. So much cleaner and louder

Thanks, I'll look into it.

 

[kamspy]

What does GAF think of Orb Audio?

Quality audio? Or merely eye candy?

I installed a set for a neighbor of mine. His wife didn't want big speakers, so he calls me go Bose shopping. I laugh for a while and then we ordered some Orb. It's pretty good stuff if speaker size is a factor. Not to say that it's bad, but that's the only time I'd recommend it.

 

[Raistlin]

What does GAF think of Orb Audio?

Quality audio? Or merely eye candy?

Matters the usage I suppose, but I don't think they're worth it. I tested a set for a living room scenario and couldn't live with them. Very directional, and can't hit low enough to get a blend with a sub unless you don't mind a 20Hz or more gap.

It's possible a 2.1 near-field scenario would work, though you can do better for the money. They are pretty as hell though.


See this threadhttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383837 for a high-level recount of my Orb Audio journey.

 

[kamspy]

Is there a better "cube" alternative?

 

[Raistlin]

Oh on a related note, I have a used pair of Tannoy Reveals (the original blue active monitors with the 6.5-inch woofer) en route for my upcoming workstation build

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/tannoyreveal.htm

 

[Raistlin]

Is there a better "cube" alternative?

I'm sure there are better values, though they probably won't look as nice.


The issue here is that at such sizes there are fundamental laws of physics one must contend with. No matter which alternative you go with you will be giving up performance versus a bigger speaker. That isn't to say you need a huge speaker - but that small just doesn't hack it.


I would say I'm happy with my Mirage setup (at least the OMD portion) at this point. The price point is pretty compelling, and while large compared to the Orb, they are pretty small compared to most other cabinets. Quite stylish too. The main issue is whether or not you have somewhere to properly locate the center speaker.


What kind of build are you looking at? Stereo? Surround? What room, stands, etc?

 

[kamspy]

I'm sure there are better values, though they probably won't look as nice.


The issue here is that at such sizes there are fundamental laws of physics one must contend with. No matter which alternative you go with you will be giving up performance versus a bigger speaker. That isn't to say you need a huge speaker - but that small just doesn't hack it.

Of course. I use to get the "cube sized" request quite a bit when helping people pick out their gear. I usually went with Orb or Mirage given the restriction.

I'm not looking right now. I use B&W with a REL sub.

EDIT: You went from Rockets to Orb. No wonder.

 

[Fuzyfrog]

I love Tannoys. Got DC1's as my surround speakers.

Anyway I need some new Desktop self powered speakers.

Im thinking the Audioengine A5's and my work is the NZ supplier for them......


Anyone got any better ideas.

 

[Raistlin]

EDIT: You went from Rockets to Orb. No wonder.

Well - not permanently Eventually I'll have my dedicated setup up and running.

That said I may actually dump the Rockets unless by the time I complete my basement I think I'll be moving within a few years. Then I'll consider keeping them for an extra room. I'm planning to move to some high-efficiency, pro audio for the dedicated theater. ie - acoustically transparent screen with theater speakers. Not feeling the 'audiophile' speakers for cinema usage anymore.

I love Tannoys. Got DC1's as my surround speakers.

Anyway I need some new Desktop self powered speakers.

Im thinking the Audioengine A5's and my work is the NZ supplier for them......


Anyone got any better ideas.

See post 982

 

[Fuzyfrog]

Ohh didnt notice the Tannoys were self powered.
Will have to have a listen to them.



Anyone else here use Naim?
Thinking bout finally upgrading my Naim system to a new one but its hard to justify the money when my old system works perfectly.


Ill post some pics of my three setups when i get a chance.

 

[kevm3]

What are you thinking of upgrading to from the Naim?

 

[kevm3]

The Kora arrived and hooked into my system. So far I'm loving the more expansive midrange of the tubes. I'm going to let this settle in my system more before more thorough impressions.

 

[Veritas_]

Finally broke down a pulled the trigger on these bad boys.
Swan/HiVi D1080 MkII

I'll post impressions and photos when they arrive in a week or so.

 

[kevm3]

Too bad this thread is a goner. Looks like it wasn't meant to be.

 

[Winged Creature]

Time to create a new thread dedicated to highend audio, not PC speakers?

 

[Vicetrailia]

I just got some swan m10's, pretty happy with them

So can I hook this up to a TV?

 

[whatsinaname]

So can I hook this up to a TV?

That is what the rear panel looks like.

Standard RCA L/R in. The speaker set comes with an RCA to 1/4" plug cable that I use to connect these to my computer.


Also, if you are looking for a used set, I might be selling mine. Message me if you are interested.

If you want them new, www.theaudioinsider.com is your best bet.

 

[Dice]

I can't wait to get my DAC so my M200MkIIIs can make sweet speaker love to my ears.

 

[Veritas_]

Got my D1080MKii 08's in yesterday.... and I've seriously underwhelmed. I've double checked everything, connections, flat EQ, tried different positions, etc. They have this hollow boxy sound that's just awful. I'll give them another couple days to see if there is some sort of dramatic burn-in effect, but otherwise these are going straight back. Friggin' sucks that I wasted so much time and money on this.

I'm a little upset.

Edit: I want to try getting a usb-DAC, but I don't want to shell out another $100 for everything to still suck. Do they really make that large a difference? (Using a 2010 iMac for output)

 

[Dice]

I want to try getting a usb-DAC, but I don't want to shell out another $100 for everything to still suck. Do they really make that large a difference? (Using a 2010 iMac for output)

They don't make crappy speakers good. They unleash the beast inside awesome speakers.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

getting the right speaker set up is hard, there are some great ones out there but in all reality...a great pair of headphones is way easier to get godly sound . All i can advise is take time to work out speaker placement, match the power ratings for the speakers and the amps output per channel. I myself like self powered speakers at this point but thats not neccessary. Only other thing i can say is if you have reference monitors on your mind they will sound flat or neutral or in other words accurate but should be able to handle certain channels being amped to provide a better sound for playback so you can rock out. another thing is crossover frequency is picky so if you got a sub woofer theres no set value or frequency thats standard for allllllllll set ups , experiment.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

This is what I use!

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKhvQKsQ7EI

 

[Darkatomz]

They don't make crappy speakers good. They unleash the beast inside awesome speakers.

But the D1080 MkII's aren't crappy speakers...