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[BadWolf]

Decided to play it again after a long break and started another infinite climax run, up to CH14 now. Doing no items and just using the parry accessory.

Man, this isn't very fun. Witch Time makes the game easy but at the same time the enemy AI seems to be designed around it because the only time they truly seem to be open to attack is during Witch Time.

Outside of it, even if you hit them when they are recovering from a move or whatever, there is always a very high chance they will just instantly recover out of hit stun and parry you or do some invincible attack that just flat out interrupts your string. Looking to hit them when they seem exposed is pretty much pointless it seems so attack strings become useless. So what it comes down to is just cheesing the game by spamming stuff here and there and just using dodge offset to be able to let out a weave attack to do decent damage, which kind of looks silly after a while and reminds me of Ninja Gaiden which favors spamming invincible attacks.

Guess the game is just meant to be played with WT to be enjoyed properly. Even Kamiya pretty much always made sure to activate it via dodge before going for a combo in his playthrough.

DMC4's DMD mode felt a lot more enjoyable and balanced.

 

[gdt]

If i go back a few chapters, can i complete an Alfheim portal and then just exit out of the chapter? Or do i need to finish the chapter to save my rings and rewards?

 

[mrmickfran]

If i go back a few chapters, can i complete an Alfheim portal and then just exit out of the chapter? Or do i need to finish the chapter to save my rings and rewards?

The alfheim saves the moment you step out of the portal.

 

[Retro_]

Decided to play it again after a long break and started another infinite climax run, up to CH14 now. Doing no items and just using the parry accessory.

Man, this isn't very fun. Witch Time makes the game easy but at the same time the enemy AI seems to be designed around it because the only time they truly seem to be open to attack is during Witch Time.

Outside of it, even if you hit them when they are recovering from a move or whatever, there is always a very high chance they will just instantly recover out of hit stun and parry you or do some invincible attack that just flat out interrupts your string. Looking to hit them when they seem exposed is pretty much pointless it seems so attack strings become useless. So what it comes down to is just cheesing the game by spamming stuff here and there and just using dodge offset to be able to let out a weave attack to do decent damage, which kind of looks silly after a while and reminds me of Ninja Gaiden which favors spamming invincible attacks.

Guess the game is just meant to be played with WT to be enjoyed properly. Even Kamiya pretty much always made sure to activate it via dodge before going for a combo in his playthrough.

DMC4's DMD mode felt a lot more enjoyable and balanced.

Use some different weapons and moves. There are weapons that stagger super armor enemies and moves that can put enemies that can parry your attacks in a state where they can't like trips, stomps or launches. Certain enemies are only really vulnerable to bigger stuff once you break their armor etc.

I don't think the enemies are designed and balanced around Witch Time so much as they are around the player character being able to freely dodge cancel all of her strings at any point. So to highlight that as a focus not all enemies can just be freely combo'd like a DMC game once you land a hit(where that is a focus of that series). They break out and counter attack and the player has to react to that as they have the means to do so with their dodge and resume their offense where they left off with dodge offset.

It's really weird to say that enemies are designed around Witch Time since Witch Time basically ignores all of the unique properties of each enemy's design. Enemies with super armor are now vulnerable to hitstun, enemies that shake off grabs can now be pulled, enemies on fire can now be hit freely, enemies that shake out of launches can now be launched and combo'd and weight differences between enemies sort of disappear.

Enemies are only balanced in Witch Time in the sense that it turns them all into the same enemy

That said my favorite way to play NSIC is with Bracelet of Time. It's kind of like playing the prototype version of Bayo where Witch Time was a toggle that used magic. It gives me something to do with Magic as I don't really use torture attacks and it allows certain weapons to be more viable in the mode like the whip.(Can flash Witch TIme on and pull some of the bigger enemies like Fearless and Fairness and both G&G pairs)

 

[BadWolf]

Use some different weapons and moves. There are weapons that stagger super armor enemies and moves that can put enemies that can parry your attacks in a state where they can't like trips, stomps or launches. Certain enemies are only really vulnerable to bigger stuff once you break their armor etc.

I don't think the enemies are designed and balanced around Witch Time so much as they are around the player character being able to freely dodge cancel all of her strings at any point. So to highlight that as a focus not all enemies can just be freely combo'd like a DMC game once you land a hit(where that is a focus of that series). They break out and counter attack and the player has to react to that as they have the means to do so with their dodge and resume their offense where they left off with dodge offset.

It's really weird to say that enemies are designed around Witch Time since Witch Time basically ignores all of the unique properties of each enemy's design. Enemies with super armor are now vulnerable to hitstun, enemies that shake off grabs can now be pulled, enemies on fire can now be hit freely, enemies that shake out of launches can now be launched and combo'd and weight differences between enemies sort of disappear.

Enemies are only balanced in Witch Time in the sense that it turns them all into the same enemy

That said my favorite way to play NSIC is with Bracelet of Time. It's kind of like playing the prototype version of Bayo where Witch Time was a toggle that used magic. It gives me something to do with Magic as I don't really use torture attacks and it allows certain weapons to be more viable in the mode like the whip.(Can flash Witch TIme on and pull some of the bigger enemies like Fearless and Fairness and both G&G pairs)

The point of NSIC I felt was to take away WT so never bothered with that accessory as a result.

But yeah, I just have the last boss fight left (fuck the motorbike, harrier and dumb shit instant death QTEs btw) on this second run and am of pretty much the same opinion as before. I even looked up vids on youtube to see a different way to play but nope. Keeping your distance (or staying in the air) to whiff stuff while shooting bullets/missiles and going for a weave attack is the way to go, and using dodge offset when needed. Pretty much every enemy can be handled in this way.

The fact that every enemy counters you almost right away and does an invincible attack to get out of hitstun is a very silly design decision. The fact that they do this even when attacked while vulnerable is even sillier.

DMC functions like a fighting game, if you open them up or get in when they are vulnerable then you can do business. Which is how it should be and works in most other games as well like MGR, God Hand etc. as well.

 

[Retro_]

The point of NSIC I felt was to take away WT so never bothered with that accessory as a result.

Well it takes it away from getting it on a dodge for free, which is probably the biggest reason people see it as a crutch. You get it so easily.

Bracelet of Time isn't much better considering how easy it is to build magic(with Bayonetta anyways) but at least you have to think about it. One of the things I'm most interested in seeing with the sequel is how adding Bullet Climax as a meter option will change NSIC mode for me.

The fact that every enemy counters you almost right away and does an invincible attack to get out of hitstun is a very silly design decision. The fact that they do this even when attacked while vulnerable is even sillier.

I think you're exaggerating here.

Yeah enemies don't get staggered as often as they do on lower difficulties, but they can still be launched and tripped or stomped. and not every enemy is even capable of countering your attacks...

DMC functions like a fighting game, if you open them up or get in when they are vulnerable then you can do business. Which is how it should be and works in most other games as well like MGR, God Hand etc. as well.

uhhhh. You should go play those games again.

MGR is filled with enemies that ignore hitstun and counter attacks. only in that game you don't have a reliable dodge move and have to deal with unblockables, poor audio cues(and inconsistent visual ones) and a bad camera.(which exacerbates the issue with your weaker defensive options in that they require a directional input in relation to the enemy's position onscreen)

God Hand also has enemies that need to be launched in order to deal damage and some that need to be guard/poise broken in order to launch.(which isn't really much different than having to break the armor of certain enemies before they can be launched)

 

[BadWolf]

I think you're exaggerating here.

Yeah enemies don't get staggered as often as they do on lower difficulties, but they can still be launched and tripped or stomped. and not every enemy is even capable of countering your attacks...

Not at all, I was hoping that that would be the case but I'm pretty sure I have been countered by almost every enemy that isn't one of those flying or really heavy types. Even those very basic first angels you fight with the pole do this. Dodged forward right through its swing and hit it while it was in recovery and a hit or two later got interrupted by a counter into an invincible attack.

The bigger versions of those minor angels, G&G, Fearless & whatever, those armored/shield guys, Joy etc. all do it too.

So taking into account that the normal hits easily get countered and interrupted and that they don't do too much damage to begin with (its all loaded onto the finisher), their use is pretty much nullfied. Which comes back to the issue of ranged and weaves being where its at in this mode.

uhhhh. You should go play those games again.

MGR is filled with enemies that ignore hitstun and counter attacks. only in that game you don't have a reliable dodge move and have to deal with unblockables, poor audio cues(and inconsistent visual ones) and a bad camera.(which exacerbates the issue with your weaker defensive options in that they require a directional input in relation to the enemy's position onscreen)

God Hand also has enemies that need to be launched in order to deal damage and some that need to be guard/poise broken in order to launch.(which isn't really much different than having to break the armor of certain enemies before they can be launched)

Think you might want to go and re-play MGR because it does have a very reliable dodge move. Not only is it effective due to all the invincibility frames but you can parry during its animation and it does the same thing dodge offset does (though iirc it is more advanced since you can move and do other stuff before continuing your attack string). And to be honest it has some of the most obvious visual cues, to the point where they colored them so you know when to parry or to dodge an unblockable.

As for God Hand, it was built with the guard break mechanic in mind so you want them to guard just so you can break it and go in for the big damage and combos (you do critical damage when they are guard broken). So a lot of players map moves that force enemies to guard (like the machine gun punches) just so they can break it. Not only that but you can force that weakened/juggle state via timed counter hits as well. The mechanic is very much balanced.

 

[Retro_]

Not at all, I was hoping that that would be the case but I'm pretty sure I have been countered by every enemy that isn't one of those flying types. Even those very basic first angels you fight with the pole do this. Dodged forward right through its swing and hit it while it was in recovery and a hit or two later got interrupted by a counter into an invincible attack.

No you're exaggerating. I just booted up the game just to make sure my memory was correct and was able to complete multiple punch chains with the pistols on Applauds without getting parried.

and it's not so much a parry as it is them adopting a blocking stance and you triggering it. and I believe it can only be triggered from the front but it's hard to verify because they do it so infrequently. They also don't appear to be able to do it once their armor is broken. and there's some weapons like Sai Fung where I didn't get a single block at all.

I just learned more about the game in 5 minutes of experimenting than you did in an entire playthrough I guess.

Think you might want to go and re-play MGR because it does have a very reliable dodge move. Not only is it effective due to all the invincibility frames but you can parry during its animation and it does the same thing dodge offset does (though iirc it is more advanced since you can move and do other stuff before continuing your attack string).
.

It has quite a bit of recovery at the end and being able to parry cancel, while nice, doesn't help you when you're hit by something you can't parry.(or can't see because of the camera) Like rockets, bullets, lasers, gorilla grabs etc

Also dodge offset is kinda useless in MGR because Raiden's enders are so bad and IIRC can't be dodge cancelled. (It's good for pincer blades I know. That's it)

but this isn't about MGR. I think it's a bad game and I've said as much in multiple threads. We're drifting away from your original point here and I don't want to talk about it anymore.

And to be honest it has some of the most obvious visual cues, to the point where they colored them so you know when to parry or to dodge an unblockable.

Right but they're inconsistent in that there are moves that can be parried that aren't colored like the gekko stomp, as well as there being moves that are unblockable without yellow cues. and certain moves when parried do damage anyways etc

As for God Hand, it was built with the guard break mechanic in mind so you want them to guard just so you can break it and go in for the big damage and combos (you do critical damage when they are guard broken). So a lot of players map moves that force enemies to guard (like the machine gun punches) just so they can break it. Not only that but you can force that weakened/juggle stay via timed counter hits as well. The mechanic is very much balanced.

I'm not saying that God Hand's system isn't balanced. I'm just saying that you can't break guard and go into your light ground chain without expecting the enemy to recover, which seems to be your complaint about Bayonetta. That you can't punish enemies with light attacks after finding an opening

but we've established that you're grossly exaggerating here so this discussion is moot.

 

[BadWolf]

No you're exaggerating. I just booted up the game just to make sure my memory was correct and was able to complete multiple punch chains with the pistols on Applauds without getting parried.

and it's not so much a parry as it is them adopting a blocking stance and you triggering it. and I believe it can only be triggered from the front but it's hard to verify because they do it so infrequently. They also don't appear to be able to do it once their armor is broken. and there's some weapons like Sai Fung where I didn't get a single block at all.

I just learned more about the game in 5 minutes of experimenting than you did in an entire playthrough I guess.

Let me guess, you loaded up that graveyard stage? 5 minutes indeed.

Right but they're inconsistent in that there are moves that can be parried that aren't colored like the gekko stomp, as well as there being moves that are unblockable without yellow cues. and certain moves when parried do damage anyways etc

How much hand holding do you need exactly? I'm surprised they even did the color thing.

I'm not saying that God Hand's system isn't balanced. I'm just saying that you can't break guard and go into your light ground chain without expecting the enemy to recover, which seems to be your complaint about Bayonetta. That you can't punish enemies with light attacks after finding an opening

Sounds like you haven't played God Hand much.

but we've established that you're grossly exaggerating here so this discussion is moot.

lol

 

[Jintor]

 

[Retro_]

Let me guess, you loaded up that graveyard stage? 5 minutes indeed.

Stage 6 Verse 3 actually as that one has every type of melee Applaud and Affinity in one encounter.(I decided I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that the enemies get harder the deeper you get in the game, even though I'm not necessarily sure that's true, so I didn't do prologue.)

Replayed it about 4-5 times. Can count the number of counters on one hand. Number of invincible moves is even easier.(Like I said enemies aren't "staggered" as easily, so they can attack through your light hits. but that's not the same thing as being invincible. They still take damage and with offset dodging to get out of the way is no different than continuing your string)

About how deep do I have to go before your observations about balance, that I've never heard of in the 4-5 years that the game has been out, actually appear?

How much hand holding do you need exactly? I'm surprised they even did the color thing.

It'd be better without the colors in my mind. At least that way you wouldn't need to assume the game was giving you bad information to figure things out.

Sounds like you haven't played God Hand much.

Haven't played it in years. But like I said it doesn't matter in this discussion as I can't reproduce any of your observations about Bayonetta to begin with. I'm not being countered right away and I haven't experienced any "invincible attacks"

I mean if you didn't have fun with NSIC that's one thing. Tons of people don't like it and prefer the game with Witch Time. but I mean when you step in and say incorrect things about balance to justify it that give people room to call you out on it.

 

[BadWolf]

Bro just let it go. Like I said, staying away and going for weaves was the most effective way to play the game on NSIC. That's the conclusion I came to playing myself and watching others on youtube out of curiousity. Disagree? Oh well.

Anyway, just beat it.

Didn't use items, special weapons (nunchuks, lasers, light saber etc.) and only the parry accessory. It was fun but could have been better than just taking the Hard difficulty and taking WT away.

QTEs are probably some of the worst I have encountered in the genre.

The game is just so stylish overall, great characters. Little Cereza is probably the cutest and most well done kid I have seen in a game yet. And still hoping Jeanne gets her own game some day.

My bad

 

[vicoakland]

Playing Bayonetta on PS3 is better than not playing Bayonetta at all.

I hope so. Quick 2014 update from a new PS3 disc buyer here.

-the Dual Shock 4 does not work with PS3 Bayonetta, the R2 button doesn't register
-if you start the game with the DS4 and then try to use a DS3, it may still not work. I had to erase my save file and start over clean with a DS3 for some reason.

I knew there was an update, but out of curiosity I wanted to see how this disc played without it.

Popping the disc in, game flashed a "loading" message multiple times in the opening cinematic and the BlueRay laser made loud noises constantly. Getting to the actual gameplay, this was much worse, if anything. Totally unacceptable, really, and I can understand why people were/are upset.

Left the disc in, thinking it might auto-patch overnight (PS+), but it did not.

So next morning I downloaded the update manually, and, again, w/o the HD install, the game was still constantly "Loading..." until I actually Installed it to my HD. (Basically, I'm not sure the update actually does anything w/o installing to HD.)

Once installed to my HD there was a significant improvement vis a vis the "Loading..." messages. Game still flashes "Loading..." (even during opening cinematics for some reason) but this seems to occur 10x less frequently and, when it does, it's for a shorter duration. Same with BlueRay laser...it still acts up, just less frequently. Overall, the game still flashes "Loading..." and interrupts, but it is just shorter, more in the background, and much less frequent.

Post-install, on first glance, PS3 Bayonetta performs somewhat similar to DmC on PS3, but that's just a first impression. ie. It seems quite playable.

The digital download (which is currently $20) may be preferable here, given that it is going to install to the HD directly, and save your BlueRay all that wear and tear. On the other hand, I got a nice version of the disc-version complete for less shipped.

I haven't played through the game but something is telling me I'm in for a similar situation to the US-version of Onimusha Dawn of Dreams for PS2, ie. the "somewhat broken version of a game that's better elsewhere."

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or off base.