Astral Dog
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Are you serious?
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Belgian woman, 24, granted right to die by euthanasia over suicidal thoughts
- Thread starter neojubei
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Are you serious?
Jesus christ what a sick shit thing to say. Depression effects all ages, and she has been suffering it most of her life. Depression can be one of the most debilitating things you'd ever experience if it's severe enough. I hope to fucking God you never have to go through it. Have some goddamn empathy. I hope you come back and say it was just a joke and you were being sarcastic, because that was just a sick and twisted comment.
I am not a psychologist or a psychiatrist or any sort of expert on mental health.
But from reading the original story, and the interview with the woman in question that was posted later in the thread, it sounds to me like she has severe OCD. "Harm OCD" as it's referred to. She is plagued by thoughts of suicide that she cannot escape. She doesn't have suicidal intent and she would not act on these thoughts independently. But there is no relief and the endless onslaught of these thoughts has driven her into depression and made her life unmanageable.
So it's actually a bit of the reverse of what's been discussed - she is not plagued with suicidal thoughts because she's depressed. She's depressed because she cannot escape an endless parade of suicidal thoughts.
OCD has been successfully treated through CBT alone or combined with medication. I'm going to assume that CBT was tried but unsuccessful for this person.
Based on this, which I totally admit is a lot of conjecture on my part, I can understand why the woman in question wants to die. Living with wave after wave of horrifying, intrusive, unwanted thoughts of suicide for decades sounds like a living hell.
You've truly outdone yourself. Congrats, I guess.
But from reading the original story, and the interview with the woman in question that was posted later in the thread, it sounds to me like she has severe OCD. "Harm OCD" as it's referred to. She is plagued by thoughts of suicide that she cannot escape. She doesn't have suicidal intent and she would not act on these thoughts independently. But there is no relief and the endless onslaught of these thoughts has driven her into depression and made her life unmanageable.
So it's actually a bit of the reverse of what's been discussed - she is not plagued with suicidal thoughts because she's depressed. She's depressed because she cannot escape an endless parade of suicidal thoughts.
OCD has been successfully treated through CBT alone or combined with medication. I'm going to assume that CBT was tried but unsuccessful for this person.
Based on this, which I totally admit is a lot of conjecture on my part, I can understand why the woman in question wants to die. Living with wave after wave of horrifying, intrusive, unwanted thoughts of suicide for decades sounds like a living hell.
You've truly outdone yourself. Congrats, I guess.
User 479360
Banned
Seriously. What the fuck was that?
I just read an article in the New Yorker about similar cases in Belgium, not sure if its been posted here:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/22/the-death-treatment
Mostly about the aftermath and the seeming lack of debate about it in Belgian society
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/22/the-death-treatment
Mostly about the aftermath and the seeming lack of debate about it in Belgian society
Can we please stop saying "well, the medical professionals agreed to it" as if that somehow waives all criticism?
Mental health professionals are not infallible. There's a long history of mental health doctors abusing and neglecting their patients. I have experienced it firsthand.
How many people defending this decision have actually suffered severe mental illness?
That slope has already been crossed. Nazi Germany and various other governments already have a history of sterilizing and executing the mentally ill (Action T4) by declaring them incurable.
Mental health professionals are not infallible. There's a long history of mental health doctors abusing and neglecting their patients. I have experienced it firsthand.
How many people defending this decision have actually suffered severe mental illness?
That slope has already been crossed. Nazi Germany and various other governments already have a history of sterilizing and executing the mentally ill (Action T4) by declaring them incurable.
I hate it when people say that there's always help or since that you made it through there's always an answer for someone else. There isn't always. Not everybody gets out of depression. Not everybody is able to find help or even have that possibility. Some people are just trapped and can't find an answer no matter how much they want to.
excelsiorlef
Member
She wants it and three doctors over the course of a long process agreeded repeatedly.
Sup!
Yeah sterilizing and executing folks against their will
You know who are treating mentally ill people like they're invalids incapable of making decisions for themselves in this thread? Spoilers it ain't the people supporting her decision.
OuterLimits
Member
I did read a British study that showed Ketamine showed great results but it was a small sample size. Some were feeling better within a single dose in the study. Hopefully more tests are being done on the drug.
Definitely a sad story.
Definitely a sad story.
I sincerely hope Laura wasn't stuck in a mental hospital for that 1.5 waiting period. Those places are literal prisons.
And that contradicts what I've said how...?
I know exactly what it's like to be treated like I'm incapable of making a decision for myself so don't give me that ****. Honestly, that is so insulting.
That response that Laura wrote is word for word how I feel. I'm only 2 years younger than she is. I feel like killing myself almost all the time. It's been that way since childhood.
I ended up abandoning professional help entirely and doing my own research. Everything I've learned so far on my own has been so immensely helpful to me. I've made more progress in a few months by myself than I have with years of "professional" psychiatric care.
I feel nothing but sympathy for this woman. The system has failed her so terribly. Belgium should not be praised for this. This isn't "progressive". This is the status quo. Society would rather be rid of the mentally ill than take the time to help us get better.
Nice to know I'm not alone here.
Have you tried doing some reading up on personality disorders? If you haven't, I highly recommend doing so. It helped me a lot.
And that contradicts what I've said how...?
I know exactly what it's like to be treated like I'm incapable of making a decision for myself so don't give me that ****. Honestly, that is so insulting.
That response that Laura wrote is word for word how I feel. I'm only 2 years younger than she is. I feel like killing myself almost all the time. It's been that way since childhood.
I ended up abandoning professional help entirely and doing my own research. Everything I've learned so far on my own has been so immensely helpful to me. I've made more progress in a few months by myself than I have with years of "professional" psychiatric care.
I feel nothing but sympathy for this woman. The system has failed her so terribly. Belgium should not be praised for this. This isn't "progressive". This is the status quo. Society would rather be rid of the mentally ill than take the time to help us get better.
Nice to know I'm not alone here.
Have you tried doing some reading up on personality disorders? If you haven't, I highly recommend doing so. It helped me a lot.
The difference between this decision and those by Nazis is this one was sparked by the patient's own desire. The doctors did not go out of their way to make sure this woman would die, and in fact tried to help her until the very end.
While I haven't read much about this my opinion is that if I were to decide to kill myself where I live, there's very little in terms of ways to do it that's guaranteed to work without leaving you in incredible pain or failing, or both.
Sounds like she's already living with one of those already as it is, don't judge so harshly what you do not understand or can't comprehend.
You're not at all wrong, but I've suffered through a hefty depression myself and I have never been able to communicate just how hellish and debilitating the disease it really is. I personally am convinced you cannot have a real sense of what depression is like without having suffered from it yourself.
You're missing one important point, Nazi Germany would have kept her alive to experiment on her with all kinds of painful therapies like people are suggestion to do to her in this very topic.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah. People think it's just being sad. I don't even mind the sad parts. The parts that get to me are the days where you physically can't even operate like a basic normal being because you lack any kind of motivation or willpower to get on with life.
excelsiorlef
Member
You were saying you shouldn't trust a doctor just because they are a doctor, sure fine, but there are three of them in this case who know her and everything a hell of a lot more than you do and she's bee an active and willing participant in the whole thing. So to say well doctors can suck, yes sure, but three of them in a case where the woman is a willing participant? Unlikely that the doctors are bad.
I was giving that shit because a vast majority of the people opposed to this are basing it off her not being mentally capable of making that decision. Assuming she is so sick she can't make decisions for herself.
So this has nothing to do with her and everything to do with your experiences. Look I also had awful experiences with mental health doctors, I had one try to prescribe medication to make me not transgender, but they are not everyone and this is a case of three doctors working closely with her for a long while. That you or I had bad experiences does not mean she did. Also it's great that self treating yourself helped but if you think that should be the norm you'd see a rise in suicide not a decrease. I've also been frequently suicidal but neither you or I would have likely gotten through this program, want to know why? Because all it would have take is one moment of change of mind during the process and she'd have had her clock reset, just saying this shouldn't happen would be enough of doubt to not qualify for this process
Not enough sympathy to respect her wishes though and that's my sticking point, no one respects her wishes. She's not asking for help to live, like I or many other suicidal people have, she's asking to relieved of her lifelong pain and to do so with dignity and without pain.
She has the service of three doctors who over the course of 18 months checked in on her frequently to make sure this was what she wanted to do, if they wanted to get rid of her they'd have just let her do it a soon as she asked. They clearly want her to live but are respectful of her wishes and want to help her that way.
What is your honest to god solution for her?
Some say she can't make her own decisions, so what then? If she can't look after herself the only real option is an institution. So great instead of letting her die with dignity we lock her up and let her live in pain and without freedom.
Deny her and let her go free in the world? Ok sure but guess what she's just gonna go do it herself. So great now she's going to do it one of the more messier painful routes, maybe it'll work and no one gets traumatized or maybe now she ends up crippled and in more constant pain, only now unable to do remotely anything about it.
Force her into every experimental treatment ever in the hope that maybe....MAYBE..... one day she'll want to live, evemn if that takes decades or never happens? Awesome let's just force years of pain on someone just in case.
maquiladora
Member
They are helping by granting her request. This is what she has been asking for, for years.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not what I would consider 'helping'.
excelsiorlef
Member
maquiladora
Member
Keeping her alive against her wishes while she continues to suffer is a worse option I think.
This case is very tragic but this is ultimately what she has been asking for. And the doctors who are familiar with this case have agreed that her request should be granted.
Wow for all the stupid shit people get banned over i hope you get some time as well. Do some reading and find out that this emo has been suffering for a 20 something years. Also you dont get to come on Belgium us we get many shit wrong but atleast gay marriage has been legal for over a decade now. Totally unrelated but that 'come on belgians' shit just gets me.
CadetMahoney
Member
Not surprising.
In Belgium you don't have to be terminally ill to commit suicide (legally), which is how it should be if you're for legal assisted suicide.
In Belgium you don't have to be terminally ill to commit suicide (legally), which is how it should be if you're for legal assisted suicide.
Humans can only be killed by trains? I was complaining about it being selfish, so why on earth would I want this?
excelsiorlef
Member
You know what i selfish asking someone to live indefinitely in abject and constant pain just so you won't feel sad.
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
It's one of the leading methods used here:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws.english/News/1.1872544
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...in_Belgium_1998-2009_incidence_and_prevention
I agree.
She has an non-terminal illness and the state should be trying to help her through it. If she really chooses to kill herself, that's her right and I'm certainly not judging it. But I also don't believe in giving up on people in cases like this, and I just worry this sets a precedent where people with suicidal tendencies end up dead instead of being helped.
If the state is to enable her choice to die, there has to be an airtight system of checks in place for it. It should only ever be a last, LAST resort.
And what makes you think that she's failed those checks?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
How much more airtight can you get than requiring three doctors to individually conclude that she is mentally capable of making this decision, and setting up the consent process so that it requires sustained consent over an 18 month period where even a single withdrawal restarts the process?
Miles Quaritch
Member
So the system they have in place now?
She has an incurable illness. A terminal, but curable illness can't get you euthanasia until it becomes incurable.
Because nothing pairs with depression as well as impulsivity.
Prax
Member
I think it's sad that she's been in so much pain that she has decided from a quite logical standpoint that she's had enough, but at least it gives her friends and family a more healthy mourning period together (and even small chance at reconsidering).
I can't say whether or not it's the right thing or if the procedure used to permit the euthanasia is rock solid, but this area is very grey. I think it's okay to feel some sort of ambivalence or sadness about it all, but humans in general make all sorts of permanent decisions for themselves that we may not agree with for ourselves, and I figure this is her life and her journey, and this is how she chose to live it to the end after careful consideration, so I guess the rest is up to her and her allies and doctors.
It's possible she could have just planned some wild adventure/extreme sport trip and "died doing what she loved" thing that we celebrate and glorify at times, but because this is a more sombre way of going through it, we feel it's more wrong.. but for me, I'm more ambivalent. If this must be it and she's sure, then good luck on her journey.
I can't say whether or not it's the right thing or if the procedure used to permit the euthanasia is rock solid, but this area is very grey. I think it's okay to feel some sort of ambivalence or sadness about it all, but humans in general make all sorts of permanent decisions for themselves that we may not agree with for ourselves, and I figure this is her life and her journey, and this is how she chose to live it to the end after careful consideration, so I guess the rest is up to her and her allies and doctors.
It's possible she could have just planned some wild adventure/extreme sport trip and "died doing what she loved" thing that we celebrate and glorify at times, but because this is a more sombre way of going through it, we feel it's more wrong.. but for me, I'm more ambivalent. If this must be it and she's sure, then good luck on her journey.
Something something "I had depression so it makes me qualified to assess and judge another person's situation."
IISANDERII
Member
Great post.
Same here.
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
That's one way to see it. I've long been a proponent of this. Less rapists and other murderers, more functioning organs for those who can put them to good use. Imagine if people like Andreas Lubitz and Elliot Rodger had been euthanized before they came to do what they did.
Killing people before they could do something sounds a lot like murder, not euthanasia. Considering Rodger had no warning signs preventing him to buy so many weapons, I don't think you'd find someone to justify that murder.
Cizeta-Moroder
Banned
If euthanasia was well available, they would have voluntarily used the service. That's the point.
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