Epic Tier 3 Engineer
Banned
Except it looks fake. Never for a second did I think it looked somewhat believable, unlike Gollum or the prawns.Scullibundo said:
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Best CGI character?
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Nizz
Member
I need to see the Avatar movie to be able to truly judge the end result of the GGI, but from what I have seen, tops in my book is Davy Jones.
From how he looks, the look of his clothes/fabric, the animation, the eyes. The best I've seen so far. I'm planning on renting District 9 next week so I can finally see the work there.
From the pictures here the D9 aliens look damn good. Also, that shot of Neytiri looks incredible. You can see slight wrinkles, pores in her skin. But I want to see her in motion in the final film to judge.
Gollum also looks amazing still. And even though they're not flesh and blood, the Transformers look fantastic as well.
From how he looks, the look of his clothes/fabric, the animation, the eyes. The best I've seen so far. I'm planning on renting District 9 next week so I can finally see the work there.
From the pictures here the D9 aliens look damn good. Also, that shot of Neytiri looks incredible. You can see slight wrinkles, pores in her skin. But I want to see her in motion in the final film to judge.
Gollum also looks amazing still. And even though they're not flesh and blood, the Transformers look fantastic as well.
I don't know if the record still holds but...
The character of Aki Ross in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (USA, 2001) is composed of over 100,000 subdivided polygons; she has 60,000 hairs, each individually modelled and animated, taking up a quarter of the computer processing power, and 16 motion capture cameras were used to create and animate her body.
The character of Aki Ross in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (USA, 2001) is composed of over 100,000 subdivided polygons; she has 60,000 hairs, each individually modelled and animated, taking up a quarter of the computer processing power, and 16 motion capture cameras were used to create and animate her body.
Dahbomb said:I don't know if the record still holds but...
The character of Aki Ross in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (USA, 2001) is composed of over 100,000 subdivided polygons;she has 60,000 hairs, each individually modelled and animated, taking up a quarter of the computer processing power, and 16 motion capture cameras were used to create and animate her body.
WTF?! Didn't they have hair generator and simulators back then?
HAving watched Avatar and District 9, Na'vis remain the best realized character onscreen by virtue of the fact that there was not a single scene where blue feline creatures stood out as cg when they were interacting with humans.
As good as D9 was, some of the compositing was way off that the characters felt less believable.
As good as D9 was, some of the compositing was way off that the characters felt less believable.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
What?demon said:
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
1. I think somebody is confused about what suspension of disbelief means. It means the audience agrees to believe the impossible as long as the director agrees not to take that for granted. Example: with Star Trek, the audience agrees to believe in an alternative future in which we come in contact with humanoid aliens of every sort while traveling a multiples of light speed and exploring the galaxy, sometimes meeting godlike creatures. But time travel? FUCK YOU DIRECTOR!
2. The same goes for CGI. District 9 works because it's not distracting. It's humanizing The audience agrees to participate in a world populated with prawn, and the director agrees not to shit up the movie with over-the-top michael-bayshit. It's a phenomenal achievement and more directors should look to D9 for inspiration.
3. I think I'm going to make a thread about suspension of disbelief. It's one of my absolute favorite topics of film.
4. Here's my CGI tops, but each is qualified:
Best Character (best acting by a non-human character) - Gollum. Well acted, believable, easily hated (as intended). However, I hardly think this is the greatest achievement in CGI. Is it possible motion capture (as with Jar Jar) is used as a crutch? I dunno.
Best Visual Achievement (least distracting OR most technically impressive) - So many. At the time, Jurassic Park or T2000 takes this easily. I haven't seen JP in years though. Probably Davy Jones. I disagree completely with Benjamin Button. I thought the work was impressive, but still stuck in the uncanny valley in many, many shots (especially late in the film).
BEST OVERALL CGI CHARACTER - Christopher Johnson, District 9. Part of this is that he speaks his own clicky language, so the suspension is kept in tact and the audience doesn't focus on the mouth, but on the best CGI eyes of all time.* More importantly, he's inhuman enough that the uncanny valley is never approached, but rather, between his fantastically emotionally rendered eyes and the wonderfully compelling story surrounding his character, it's hard not to take Christopher Johnson more seriously as a character than most supporting actor Oscar winners in a random year. I may be overstating it slightly, but how far off until a CG character is included in the Best Actor or Best Actress nominees? Not far off, I'm guessing.
*I haven't seen Avatar yet.
2. The same goes for CGI. District 9 works because it's not distracting. It's humanizing The audience agrees to participate in a world populated with prawn, and the director agrees not to shit up the movie with over-the-top michael-bayshit. It's a phenomenal achievement and more directors should look to D9 for inspiration.
3. I think I'm going to make a thread about suspension of disbelief. It's one of my absolute favorite topics of film.
4. Here's my CGI tops, but each is qualified:
Best Character (best acting by a non-human character) - Gollum. Well acted, believable, easily hated (as intended). However, I hardly think this is the greatest achievement in CGI. Is it possible motion capture (as with Jar Jar) is used as a crutch? I dunno.
Best Visual Achievement (least distracting OR most technically impressive) - So many. At the time, Jurassic Park or T2000 takes this easily. I haven't seen JP in years though. Probably Davy Jones. I disagree completely with Benjamin Button. I thought the work was impressive, but still stuck in the uncanny valley in many, many shots (especially late in the film).
BEST OVERALL CGI CHARACTER - Christopher Johnson, District 9. Part of this is that he speaks his own clicky language, so the suspension is kept in tact and the audience doesn't focus on the mouth, but on the best CGI eyes of all time.* More importantly, he's inhuman enough that the uncanny valley is never approached, but rather, between his fantastically emotionally rendered eyes and the wonderfully compelling story surrounding his character, it's hard not to take Christopher Johnson more seriously as a character than most supporting actor Oscar winners in a random year. I may be overstating it slightly, but how far off until a CG character is included in the Best Actor or Best Actress nominees? Not far off, I'm guessing.
*I haven't seen Avatar yet.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
demon said:
Of course. But reading this thread tells me that it DID need to be said.
PantherLotus said:
The "uncanny valley" is never approached because the term exists only to describe the threshold at which characters start to behave and appear repulsive despite looking like a human. Christopher and other cgi aliens benefit from their inherent lack of any immediate human likeness, thus carry their own threshold of believability by which we accept their existence as a character. It irks me to no end when people misuse the word, especially when referring to videogame characters..
the "uncanny valley" is just hypothetical and I think the term can loosely be applied here. Besides, the term was invented (afaik) before CGI even existed, so maybe the definition should be updated a bit. It basically refers to something approaching human-like realism just close enough where the 'unrealisms' become disproportionately off-putting because they stick out a lot more in the context of trying to look human. Your brain crosses over from thinking of it as an impressive looking non-human to a fucked up looking human. Not that the Na'vi approach that, but they are modeled and animated with hyper-detail, with many very human-like qualities...too many in some people's opinion. If they were any other kind of creature, modeled and animated with the same level and quality of detail, I think they would come off as more believable because there wouldn't be that part of your brain thinking, "it kinda looks like me, but...not even close".adelante said:
That's why the prawns come off as more realistic and believable looking to me. Aside from the fact that they're bipedal, have two eyes, etc, they are made to look and act much more alien (non-human) than the Na'vi. I was honestly pretty disappointed to see that Avatar went the Star Trek route of making their alien designs look like humans in costumes, but I suppose in the end it makes the characters easier to relate to and the movie is better off for it. But in a discussion purely about CGI characters, I gotta deduct points.
ZephyrFate
Banned
i'm gonna say Aki Ross still holds the bar
with Christopher Johnson just a smidge behind that
with Christopher Johnson just a smidge behind that
Raging Spaniard
If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
You cannot possibly mention Aki, the times have moved on. For instance, yes she looks nice in photos, but her expressions were EXTREMELY limited and the animation was not nearly as good as some newer examples. No range.
The new bar is Avatar.
The new bar is Avatar.
Barkley's Justice
Member
Scullibundo said:
i thought this movie's graphics sucked and was not convincing.
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Dahbomb said:I don't know if the record still holds but...
The character of Aki Ross in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within (USA, 2001) is composed of over 100,000 subdivided polygons; she has 60,000 hairs, each individually modelled and animated, taking up a quarter of the computer processing power, and 16 motion capture cameras were used to create and animate her body.
I actually think Sid looks more real. There are parts in the movie that astonished me. He looked like a real person for split seconds. Aki, not so much.
davy jones for me. avatar characters (judging purely from the trailers, i understand that you can get "used to them" in the movie) and benji button (which i did see) both tumbled into the uncanny valley for me. it's mostly a "skin texture"/"skin motion" issue for me, like how the skin would stretch and be lighted. aliens/dragons/dinosaurs (a la JP) don't have this issue as much, since their skin has different texture depending on the area, at least the way it was imagined. imaginary creatures or imaginary visualizations of creatures are inherently easier to do. the day we actually clone an adult t-rex will be the day we all say Jurassic Park looks fake as hell.
... or it'll be WOW, OUR VELOCIRAPTOR OVERLORDS LOOK JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE JP MOVIES
... or it'll be WOW, OUR VELOCIRAPTOR OVERLORDS LOOK JUST LIKE THEY DID IN THE JP MOVIES
Epic Tier 3 Engineer
Banned
Well then someone needs to remove the bar, because I feel like I'm watching a Pixar film.Raging Spaniard said:
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Benjamin Button has the most realistic humans. They are pretty much perfect.
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
adelante said:
I'll ignore your basic misunderstanding of the uncanny valley (which can absolutely be applied to videogame characters) and say that you missed the point. I said he never approached it because he's an alien.
nelsonroyale
Member
Personally, I think the "aliens" in avatar definitely look cartoony...I'm beginning the despise the lack of imagination in extra terrestrial designs, they look so generic...freakish, blue humanoid elves. The aliens in District 9 look amusing, but pretty corny at the same time. Definitely fit the film, but are not in the same page as great designs such as Geiger's Aliens.
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to checking out Avatar, and district 9 was awesome...especially the mech design
Edit:
What the hell? The Navi really remind me of Kemari from FFX
Having said that, I am very much looking forward to checking out Avatar, and district 9 was awesome...especially the mech design
Edit:
What the hell? The Navi really remind me of Kemari from FFX
silverbullet1080
Banned
I don't know how anyone can argue against Christopher being the being the greatest CGI character. Avatar is better from a technical standpoint, sure. But in terms of design and execution in the movie, he both looks and feels so real far and beyond anything else achieved so far.
silverbullet1080
Banned
I desperately need a link to that video.civilstrife said:
In the last pic, the robot is rendered in real-time, but the entire scene is CGI.
Tricky I Shadow
Banned
Yep, just as I said earlier in this thread, after seeing AVATAR in IMAX 3D the Navi are clearly in a league of their own, its not even up for debate if you ask me.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
silverbullet1080 said:
You are wrong. The Na'vi are far more believable once you spend time with them. Especially from an acting standpoint.
Having just seen Avatar last night, I'm going to have to give it to the Navi (however you spell it)
don't care which one. I like Jake, Neytri and Sigourney Weaver.
The fact that they are humanoid makes the CG task even more difficult. Perhaps because they are furries means the 'uncanny valley' effect is masked, but not once did I think they were cartoon characters (well, maybe the first ten minutes or so). But after that you completely buy them as real 'people', and thats an amazing acheivement.
Gollum was cool too, but IMO the closeness of the Navi to humans means they had a harder target to be 'realistic' - gollums a little more monsterish
Although IMO avatar had an advantage which is not much interaction with humans. You kind of have Navi scenes and Human scenes. There is some towards the end of the movie, but its fleeting and so can mask FX errors like compositing etc.
So for integration into the movie I'd go with District 9 or LOTR. But for character - which was the OP question - the Navi
don't care which one. I like Jake, Neytri and Sigourney Weaver.
The fact that they are humanoid makes the CG task even more difficult. Perhaps because they are furries means the 'uncanny valley' effect is masked, but not once did I think they were cartoon characters (well, maybe the first ten minutes or so). But after that you completely buy them as real 'people', and thats an amazing acheivement.
Gollum was cool too, but IMO the closeness of the Navi to humans means they had a harder target to be 'realistic' - gollums a little more monsterish
Although IMO avatar had an advantage which is not much interaction with humans. You kind of have Navi scenes and Human scenes. There is some towards the end of the movie, but its fleeting and so can mask FX errors like compositing etc.
So for integration into the movie I'd go with District 9 or LOTR. But for character - which was the OP question - the Navi
UltimaPooh
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"I told you they were tricksy I told you they were false."
MisterAnderson
Member
nib95 said:
My vote.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Solo said:
SORRY I CANT HEAR YOU SOLO!
JimiNutz
Banned
If Brad Pitt in Benjamin Button counts, then him!
If not, it has to be Gollum/Smeagol. Sure the bar has been passed in terms of visuals since then (Avatar clearly wins in this department) but Serkis' performance was absolutely breathtaking and therefore far more entertaining.
Also honourable mention to Christopher in D9
If not, it has to be Gollum/Smeagol. Sure the bar has been passed in terms of visuals since then (Avatar clearly wins in this department) but Serkis' performance was absolutely breathtaking and therefore far more entertaining.
Also honourable mention to Christopher in D9
demon said:
I think the phenomenon was originally identified during the development of robots that mimicked humans in both appearance and behaviour and the term never needed redefining because CG characters share the same factors that contribute to their uncanniness: "If its clearly not human then its human-like characteristics will stand out and appeal to us. But if the object is almost but not quite human, its non-human characteristics is all we're gonna see."
You're right about the range of acceptibility between the prawns and the Na'vis but "uncanny valley" remains irrelevant here because both characters are stylized creations that don't fall victim to the hypothesis. Having said that, a less revolting or more stylized design shouldn't necessarily translate into the character feeling "more real". Just because the Na'vi possess some exaggerated human likeness doesn't mean its remarkable photorealism should be overlooked. The aliens are only as good as worlds they interact in and rightly so because the setting and characters around them contribute a great deal to their believability. Personally, I find that D9's aliens falls a bit short because of certain scenes that weren't composited well enough to take me out of the experience. Where Avatar excelled is its beautifully-realized, completely crafted fictional setting where neither the Na'vis nor humans looked out of place.
And yet you described Christopher as "inhuman enough" as if to imply that the character possess some degree of human traits apart from it having a general humanoid appearance. Like I said, in the case of D9 the uncanny valley was never approached by virtue of stylistic character design alone. Viewers have no problem finding the prawn aliens believable because they were presented very well as such with photorealistic qualities (material textures, lighting, etc). My bad if I misunderstood your statement, but you could've just said "he's a freakin bug so the uncanny valley is never approached". Oh and I never said the phenomenon doesn't exist in videogames.PantherLotus said:
DieNgamers
Member
The Na'vi are a completely new level of CG. No doubt about it.
BobsRevenge
I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
... Dude, District 9's last act was all Michael Bay shit. It screamed Michael Bay.PantherLotus said:
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