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[Metroid Killer]

Well based on the responses here, I might have reason to be guilty of being PR-bloated, lol!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403704

I honestly think the OT I made was reasonably "bloated," but back then I got replies similar to those in the AC thread.

That's a really nice OT, the only thing I would change was having max 800pixel width images. I just dislike have images stretch the page for me making it slightly bothersome to read the text. But that is a minor problem compared to text-in-images and irrelevant info piling up in the OP.

Oddly enough, I think that is the case for the Assassin's creed game before this one.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=410426#2

Jesus, that's amazing hahaha

 

[flyinpiranha]

Discussion should be the point, but elaborate, multi-post OPs have made the threads more about the OP, the OP as an advertisement and people's appreciation of the quality of that piece of copy.

Keep in mind, I respond to Mistwalker's statement:


and if your OT is made to make the game recognized and successful, then yes its an advertisement

Actually elaborate OP's do nothing but help. All the information one could possibly need is there. It's the users that need to complain about it that cause the OP's to be more than what they are.

And going by that Mistwalker statement. Even discussing the game in a positive manner is considered an advertisement.

I think Forza 4 is an awesome game and recommend it for any racing fan (advertisement!)
Here's some art I made of Witcher because the game is so awesome I suggest anybody in the mood for an RPG to get it! (advertisement!)

Besides the text in pictures thing I think these are fine. This is supposed to be the forum of the most "hardcore" and I would expect things like that.

No, people have their strengths and interests and they will always coincide with some and not with others. It's pretty amazing that the effort is being frowned upon here. Hell, bitching about the AC OP probably brought more attention to it than it would normally have had ... we're ALL corporate shills! Any press is good press!

 

[Herbspiceguy]

When I see such elaborate OT's I can't help but wonder if the person who made it, did it to receive a copy of the game/goodies from the publisher. Has something like this ever been exposed here before?

 

[freddy]

If NeoGAF isn't getting paid for a thread like that there is something wrong.
Put that shit up as a paid editorial on a less popular site and see how much it costs.

 

[Yen]

When I see such elaborate OT's I can't help but wonder if the person who made it, did it to receive a copy of the game/goodies from the publisher. Has something like this ever been exposed here before?

A couple of guys got F1 2011 goodies for being so positive about the previous games/good OT/good neogaf league. Ironically, F1 2011 is so bug ridden and glitchy (on PC), no one on GAF is playing it.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

The Metal Gear Solid one was kinda cool (not that I read everything of it but anyway...). I usually just skim through the posts and stop if there are any pictures that catch my eye and start reading then. But the overall informational value is often like 1% so I guess I have to agree with the OP here.

 

[Wolfe]

I agree with the OP, I usually skip over most of the info in bloated OT's due to feeling overwhelmed by info while at the same time having no way of searching through said info outside of visually browsing it all by eye.

Granted you can still have too much bloat while keeping the text out of the images but it would go a long way to help things by being able to cntl+f the OP.


Also anything past the first or second post and I usually end up hitting the back button, I can find the info easier by opening a new tab and using google.

 

[Shurs]

If you have an "acknowledgement" section in your OT, you've gone too far.

 

[Boss Doggie]

You can still make a snazzy and informative thread without going overboard with all the huge images. Try to achieve a happy medium.

Yup!

The "OT people love good design!" argument isn't the most genuine argument in the world. Good design is in efficiency and compatibility. As it stands, the AC:R OT is completely incompatible with smartphone users and like with the previous AC:B thread will be unusable in about a year's time when the images die.

It also uses an awful lot to say very little that is useful.

Yeah. They pretty much are just praising for the effort and the "wow" factor, not so much as its efficiency and quality.

 

[enzo_gt]

If you have an "acknowledgement" section in your OT, you've gone too far.

What's wrong with crediting people for contributions? My UMvC3 thread has two text lines at the bottom to say thanks to the people who helped out in one way or another, what's wrong with that?

 

[Shurs]

What's wrong with crediting people for contributions? My UMvC3 thread has two text lines at the bottom to say thanks to the people who helped out in one way or another, what's wrong with that?

Well, to me, it just seems silly that people need to collaborate on an internet message board post.

People complain about bias and corruption within the game press often saying "I'll wait for GAF impressions instead." Yet here we have people working together to make what is, essentially, a free advertisement for a game they have no investment in.

Worse still, there are instances where people have gotten materials used in the OT directly from PR people representing the game.

I'm on board with the notion that an OT need not be longer than a single post.

 

[Scrow]

incase you hadn't noticed, the assassin's creed revelations OT went up today:
not safe for those prone to carpal tunnel in their mousewheel finger

look at that monstrosity. i thought OTs were supposed to be things of utility, with the original post serving as a concise primer, laying out all the useful and essential information for anyone with a wayward moment to click on them; not masturbatory odes to the greatness of every last mitigating detail of a game.

when i click on an OT i'll want to find release/pricing details, a spattering of reviews and footage, and perhaps a tastefully concise blurb or bullet list highlighting some of the major innovations/selling points of the title. what i don't want is some catch all media dump which reads like the OP found a folder some PR rep left on a train and decided to type it all up verbatim, leaving any useful information marooned in a sea of extended universe fluff.

moreover, this kind of yawning fanboy rubbing material only serves to set up a sycophantic worship tone for the rest of the thread, stifling rational debate. how dare anyone criticize a king in his own palace?

here's how it should be done, courtesy of stump. level headed, concise and actually useful:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=351801
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449987

i did also enjoy the couple of times that OTs have been granted "roast" privileges, neutralizing the usual worshipful narrative of most OTs. but with fanthing tensions as taut as they are, i foresee many faded usernames should that ever become the standard.

agreed 100%.

 

[Korey]

Why not have a 2 post limit for the OT post? That way authors can be more creative within that restraint and can get information conveyed in the most concise way while giving room for some fancy stuff

 

[enzo_gt]

Well, to me, it just seems silly that people need to collaborate on an internet message board post.

People complain about bias and corruption within the game press often saying "I'll wait for GAF impressions instead." Yet here we have people working together to make what is, essentially, a free advertisement for a game they have no investment in.

Worse still, there are instances where people have gotten materials used in the OT directly from PR people representing the game.

I'm on board with the notion that an OT need not be longer than a single post.

Are you against banners period then, in case someone who wants to write an OT is not particularly graphically inclined and needs help with banners?

To be frank, a lot of people do OTs for the fun and hype within them and hating on people working with the rest of the GAF community to organize something cool or even ways of organizing GAF events or meet ups seems kind of silly.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

People complain about bias and corruption within the game press often saying "I'll wait for GAF impressions instead." Yet here we have people working together to make what is, essentially, a free advertisement for a game they have no investment in.

I can't really get on board with this specific criticism. There's nothing wrong with genuine enthusiasm, and it's not anybody's perogative to suggest that such enthusiasm is anything more than that without some actual proof. To be specific, enzo put a lot of subtle humor into that UMvC3 OP that is by GAF for GAF, and anyone into Marvel on this forum appreciates it.

Not that that enthusiasm can't be better directed in many cases.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Are you against banners period then, in case someone who wants to write an OT is not particularly graphically inclined and needs help with banners?

To be frank, a lot of people do OTs for the fun and hype within them and hating on people working with the rest of the GAF community to organize something cool or even ways of organizing GAF events or meet ups seems kind of silly.

The whole argument is silly. No one is harmed in any single way by them yet a complaint exists because baw too much info/its like PR ect. The arguments are paperthin. I dont like them so they shouldnt exist.

If someone wants to invest that time and effort into making an OT then let them. No one is forced to read the OT. Alot of users are being overly negative about OT's which is offensive to be honest. iNvidious01 did a great job with the AC:R OT and people are ridiculing his "work" if anything thats less acceptable then a large OT.

"but its like PR ect" arguments dont work either. Official game guides exist should GameFAQs stop allowing FAQ's? So what if its like PR how does it effect any of you?.

 

[Irish]

Hey, guys, did you know that some dudes on GAF actually give money to developers and play their games and whatnot. Such consumerist whores.

 

[Metroid Killer]

If someone wants to invest that time and effort into making an OT then let them. No one is forced to read the OT.

So no one is allowed to critize an OT because a user has invested time and effort into it? We should just ignore all the users saying that text-in-images is a bad choice for OTs, that relevant info should be a priority, etc.?

A thread like this is excellent, it gives the forum a place to discuss what people like and dislike about OTs, instead of having the actual OTs being shit up with complaining posts (see early Bruceleeroy OTs).

And speaking of Bruceleeroy his new OTs are really great, and that is partial due to a lot of the criticism he recieved from making huge OTs. Hopefully iNvidious01 learns something from this thread.

 

[Flying Wonkey]

Click username > Edit Options > then disable this option.

viola

If you don't see anything in the OP just ask stuff in the thread. Will agree though that typed out OT are better for search purposes however.

 

[Mistwalker]

Well, to me, it just seems silly that people need to collaborate on an internet message board post.

Fans collaborate on a lot of things. This message board is one of the ways gamers have to express themselves and be a part of a shared-interest community. GAFFers working with that simple, limited form of expression available to turn a game release into an event...I don't know if it's silly but I bet those guys have a lot more fun. And maybe they even learn a thing or two in the process. Collaboration for mutual excitement? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

People complain about bias and corruption within the game press often saying "I'll wait for GAF impressions instead." Yet here we have people working together to make what is, essentially, a free advertisement for a game they have no investment in.

How do you feel about people who wear t-shirts of their favorite band? I know, right? The shills.

Seriously though, this is a site for people who like games. I think waiting for general impressions, particularly from fans (who can be the most critical) is reasonable enough.

Now, in cases where the posters are directly related to a firm or receiving direct compensation, that does muddy the waters a bit. So long as there is transparency, though, we're all capable of using our heads...right?

Anyway, conspiracy-theorizing aside, I think it's awesome when gamers collaborate on projects, even silly little ones like OTs. I went and ordered Skyrim after checking its thread, and am enjoying the hype immensely.

 

[MisterHero]

Oh no, people are gathering on the internet to discuss a game they will/might/really enjoy with other people.

The only thing I could agree with are giant, browser window-filling images

But looking at the Assassin's Creed thread, I do find it useful to explain all the crap that's going on in the game, especially if you didn't play the earlier versions, or explain the retailer-exclusive DLC BS, and other stuff

Even having a lot of images doesn't bother me. Old gaming magazines used to use a ton of screenshots and it helped you SEE what they were EXPLAINING.

 

[Twinduct]

Hey, guys, did you know that some dudes on GAF actually give money to developers and play their games and whatnot. Such consumerist whores.

They should totally be branded! So us purist could avoid mixing!
#OccupyEvilLore

 

[InsaneZero]

If you don't see anything in the OP just ask stuff in the thread.

I shouldn't need to modify my own settings to view a single damn thread, and asking for things that are in the OP will have people telling you "READ THE OP DUMBASS" along with some backseat mod telling me that not reading the OP is bannable.

 

[VanWinkle]

Seriously though, i hope he got paid for that Assassins Creed OT, because that looks like it took a full work week to do, lol.

 

[Shurs]

Fans collaborate on a lot of things. This message board is one of the ways gamers have to express themselves and be a part of a shared-interest community. GAFFers working with that simple, limited form of expression available to turn a game release into an event...I don't know if it's silly but I bet those guys have a lot more fun. And maybe they even learn a thing or two in the process. Collaboration for mutual excitement? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

How do you feel about people who wear t-shirts of their favorite band? I know, right? The shills.

Seriously though, this is a site for people who like games. I think waiting for general impressions, particularly from fans (who can be the most critical) is reasonable enough.

Now, in cases where the posters are directly related to a firm or receiving direct compensation, that does muddy the waters a bit. So long as there is transparency, though, we're all capable of using our heads...right?

Anyway, conspiracy-theorizing aside, I think it's awesome when gamers collaborate on projects, even silly little ones like OTs. I went and ordered Skyrim after checking its thread, and am enjoying the hype immensely.

Buying a t-shirt to support your favorite band is one thing. I'd say a more apt analogy would be if someone created their own fansite for a band they like.

I feel that 5, 10, 15 post OTs are ridiculous.

It's my opinion that when PR people or community managers contribute to OTs that we've crossed the line into stealth marketing, which is something I thought was frowned upon.

 

[Rufus]

Seriously though, i hope he got paid for that Assassins Creed OT, because that looks like it took a full work week to do, lol.

I want your job.

 

[Taoofberg]

I think it's fine people are critical of OT styles they personally don't like and I support the OP's use of social pressure to influence the board into creating less opulent OTs.

That said, I saw a few people calling for official restrictions and I think that would be detrimental. To give a specific example, sometimes ridiculous excess seems warranted; hopes regarding the Saints Row 3 OT crashing browsers made me laugh, but I completely agree that it would fit the game for that OT to be completely over-the-top.

I like how different OTs can be from each other, particularly when they reflect the tone of the game they represent. Creating a rubric for what can/cannot be in an OT might lead to a heap of bland threads, or it might bring a simple consistency that makes it easier to find information about a new game. I can't say, which is why I am glad this debate exists.

 

[Zing]

The forums encourage text-in-images. There is a character limit for each post. This can be worked around by using the images loophole, as only the URL counts towards the limit.

As a courtesy, OT should be limited to a single post. These multi-post OT with almost zero actual text are useless.

 

[Evlar]

As someone who's created few OT's myself, including the rather unwieldy Halo Reach OT, I mostly agree with the OP here. I think the OT is a place to provide all the basic information about a game, and/or links to where people can find what they want, in an attractive an organized way, as a way to kick off the discussion about a game and provide a reference for those unfamiliar with it.

I'm also a big believer in updated OPs, with news/updates at the top for those following the game (not to replace new news for new information, of course).

Personally, I think the recent Skyrim thread set a pretty good bar in terms of content, organization and presentation. It's comprehensive without being bloated. My original Reach thread was a bit bloated, but I scaled it back over time in subsequent OT's. There's something to be said for restraint.

The Halo Anniversary thread I post tomorrow is one post, and is pretty compact, a trend I plan to keep up for all subsequent OT's. It's a fine line to walk between informative and overwhelming, and I think expanding the content beyond one post starts to cross that line, at least for myself.

I agree with most of this. Limiting yourself to one post for the core information (introduction, release date, platform information, "the story so far", a few screenshots, etc.) is a handy guideline for when you might be crossing the line from "useful" to "unwieldy". The point about updating the OP should be stressed. I do read OPs in threads long after a game is released if I've been given reason to expect important post-release information is there (and, critically, easy to find). I think that Skyrim OP is just about right except it may suffer from lack of updates in the future (just guessing, since it seems close to the character limit already, but I may be mistaken on that). That's why I think it's a good idea to reserve the second post strictly for reviews and any lengthy update information that may need to be pasted in, particularly on these review-embargoed games.

 

[faridmon]

You know, I would have Disagreed with you since I sort of liked the BF3 one.

Then, I saw the ASSCreed Rev one. God, what a mess.

 

[stupei]

The forums encourage text-in-images. There is a character limit for each post. This can be worked around by using the images loophole, as only the URL counts towards the limit.

As a courtesy, OT should be limited to a single post. These multi-post OT with almost zero actual text are useless.

Or the person creating the OT could say fewer pointless things.

There is an entire post dedicated to fan art under the guise of presenting the potential "future" of the series. I mean, I think it's fan art? I don't know because the post dedicated to it doesn't actually explain where it comes from, funny enough. I mention this because I assume most people in this thread aren't even aware of it because even the people who praised the thread most likely didn't get that far.

There's also a post dedicated to linking to wikipedia entries for every single piece of media ever released for the series in chronological order. What's interesting about this is that it's one of the very last posts yet it could have easily replaced most of the posts in the middle which serve as a blow by blow recap of the other games. This would have been informative, helpful, more visually pleasing as it's far less cluttered, and easier to navigate -- all while keeping text as text.

But then what do I know, people with criticisms of the OT's structure haven't bothered to read it, right?

 

[Gomu Gomu]

For what it's worth: I agree with you OP.

 

[Mistwalker]

Buying a t-shirt to support your favorite band is one thing. I'd say a more apt analogy would be if someone created their own fansite for a band they like.

Fair enough, but what is the harm in a fansite? So long as there is transparency, of course.

I feel that 5, 10, 15 post OTs are ridiculous.

It's my opinion that when PR people or community managers contribute to OTs that we've crossed the line into stealth marketing, which is something I thought was frowned upon.

Completely agree here.

I think Taoofberg makes some good points as well, about the danger of imposing official restrictions. We've had all manner of OTs and clearly many of them were indeed learning experiences for their creators. The Assassin's Creed topic is such an extreme deviation that it's led us here, and a lot of good advice--from veterans and others--has been posted already.

Rather than hardline rules to be obeyed, perhaps there could be guidelines for consideration? It IS hard to imagine an OT requiring more than two posts, if enough thought and planning goes into it...I think plenty of both went into the AC:R topic but the poster's priorities were obviously in other places.

 

[Anteater]

I'd also like to add that it's a plague that every new release gets like 7 different threads opn the frontpage in the week of release. Like right now there are 5 or 6 MW3 threads on the frontpage. Is that really needed ? It seems like people nowadays are just falling over themselves to create threads for every single little piece of information just to be the first, even if they stole that info from other posters.

Yea they usually create a separate thread for different topics related to the same game to not bloat up the OT, I wonder if this really started because of those graphical debates, I remember people were complaining that all people do are talking about the resolution or something, so there's usually a new thread on the "comparison" or resolution talk.

I don't know if it's necessary, but I guess some of the threads gets locked or they will eventually be dead after a while. I do see a new trend of multiple threads on the same game, "review thread", "graphical comparison thread", "OT", I think there's also the "Performance" thread for some PC games, and then there're always the vs thread between 2 games.

I don't mind them but I remember seeing like 3-4 threads on battlefield3 on the same page at one point :lol, and there's the UC3 threads

 

[Skilletor]

But then what do I know, people with criticisms of the OT's structure haven't bothered to read it, right?

You just don't know it's relevant because you don't know everything about the series. If you did, you might understand!

 

[blame space]

are you guys familiar with megathreads and the systematic deterioration of conversation quality

 

[Fersis]

Be happy OP im taking out most of the images and stuff from the KOFXIII |OT|

 

[T.M. MacReady]

That AC thread is ludicrous.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

*Came in expecting an OT for a game called Bloated, PR paste-bin*

*Leaves disappointed*

 

[Parallax Scroll]

The forums encourage text-in-images. There is a character limit for each post. This can be worked around by using the images loophole, as only the URL counts towards the limit.

We could ban usage of this loophole.

 

[Infernodash]

Heh, poster takes time to craft a cool OT, entitled gaf wants less effort and less grandness. Whats on the agenda to complain about next?

 

[Warm Machine]

I just read through every line of the Halo Anniversary OT because I wanted to as I'm very interested in the game. I'm sure someone has read through the Assassins Creed one because they wanted to as well.

 

[Oppo]

I think the real answer is to put the basics on the OP post (1 post) and then simply say: I've made this huge repository AC:R info, and click here to see it (link it). If you're going to go to all that trouble why then shoe-horn it into GAF? Just make a custom page and host it somewhere.

That way the mobile browsers don't get murdered, no one has to fight with BBCode, lots of room for everything, and it's opt-in.

Don't have a huge problem with viewing big OTs on the desktop, as Page 2 is a click away, but man, you just get destroyed trying to see that page on 3G.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Heh, poster takes time to craft a cool OT, entitled gaf wants less effort and less grandness. Whats on the agenda to complain about next?

Shitty posters who don't bother to read a thread full of interesting discussion and instead broadly characterise every single poster in a thread with an awful post somewhere after page 10. I can send you a PM when it's made if you like, but it won't have any pictures sorry :\

 

[Volcynika]

Heh, poster takes time to craft a cool OT, entitled gaf wants less effort and less grandness. Whats on the agenda to complain about next?

I'm sure you've read through this entire thread. I believe it 100%!

 

[Infernodash]

Shitty posters who don't bother to read a thread full of interesting discussion and instead broadly characterise every single poster in a thread with an awful post somewhere after page 10. I can send you a PM when it's made if you like, but it won't have any pictures sorry :\

I guess the shoe fits. I don't see the OTs as a problem, there are those that do. "valid" reasons aside, the roots sounds like belly aching. Sorry the truth hurts so much.

 

[Chiggs]

People who make these OT's are designers at heart. They love making things (me included) and perhaps learn new tricks along the way when making new OT's.

Its a big skill to have, if you work in this business of designing would you dare say to them that it is sad that they make pointless box art or instruction manuals or even poster adverts and the like...I am quite offended by this quote

RDreamer well said

So, are the creators of these OTs using them in their portfolios?

 

[Infernodash]

I'm sure you've read through this entire thread. I believe it 100%!

I summed up the argument within 5 pages. Reading through 24 pages is unnecessary for me to confirm what I already know.

 

[Yeef]

I'm sure you've read through this entire thread. I believe it 100%!

I have! So there!

(it's easier when you first see when it's still only 1 page )

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I guess the shoe fits. I don't see the OTs as a problem, there are those that do. "valid" reasons aside, the roots sounds like belly aching. Sorry the truth hurts so much.

If you ignore valid reasons, then there are no valid reasons. Truth hurt much, sheeple? :smug