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Boardwalk Empire - Season 4 - Sundays on HBO

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I'll never understand the Nucky hate. Is he the most interesting character on the show? No. Is he the most well acted? No. But Steve Buscemi does a great job, he can be playful, he can be serious, he can be creepy, he can be business like, he can be funny, he can even be intimidating. I'm always surprised to see press reviews that dub him the show's weak link, Nucky is at the center of a lot of brilliant writing in the show, for instance his exchange with Narcisse in the finale.
 
all i know is Bugsy Moran was mention and he should be 100 times worse then capone since he's supposedly a constant repeated thorn on his side and more of a hot head then capone is from what i read.
 

Kadayi

Banned
I'll never understand the Nucky hate. Is he the most interesting character on the show? No. Is he the most well acted? No. But Steve Buscemi does a great job, he can be playful, he can be serious, he can be creepy, he can be business like, he can be funny, he can even be intimidating. I'm always surprised to see press reviews that dub him the show's weak link, Nucky is at the center of a lot of brilliant writing in the show, for instance his exchange with Narcisse in the finale.

I'm sorry but Buscemi is many things but intimidating is not one of them. They needed someone with some weight and gravity to play the role (the guy he's based on was a bruiser of a man). Compare and contrast Buscemi with Brian Cranston. Despite playing a guy with terminal lung cancer Cranston was able to make Walter White actually feel intimidating when he was in full on Heisenberg mode.

I'm not sure who I'd have cast in his place instead, but I do know that the fight between the brothers ages back in the greenhouse in season 2 or 3 was pretty much slapstick comedy. The notion that Nucky could actually take his brother was hard to take seriously, especially in light of the recent fight between Eli & Knox. At least with Chalky Vs Buck the shows producers did the right thing and actually acknowledged that Buck would easily overwhelm Chalky.

Love Buscemi, but the shoe doesn't fit.
 

Wilbur

Banned
I think Buscemi's very good in it but it's not what he's best at; reservoir dogs and Fargo are him at his best. Ghost world was a more reserved performance but that and Boardwalk let him shine best when there's comedy. He gets some very funny lines in BE to be honest, the one about Eli being arrested for cancelling a meeting was hilarious.
 

~Devil Trigger~

In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
I'm sorry but Buscemi is many things but intimidating is not one of them. They needed someone with some weight and gravity to play the role (the guy he's based on was a bruiser of a man). Compare and contrast Buscemi with Brian Cranston. Despite playing a guy with terminal lung cancer Cranston was able to make Walter White actually feel intimidating when he was in full on Heisenberg mode.

I'm not sure who I'd have cast in his place instead, but I do know that the fight between the brothers ages back in the greenhouse in season 2 or 3 was pretty much slapstick comedy. The notion that Nucky could actually take his brother was hard to take seriously, especially in light of the recent fight between Eli & Knox. At least with Chalky Vs Buck the shows producers did the right thing and actually acknowledged that Buck would easily overwhelm Chalky.

Love Buscemi, but the shoe doesn't fit.

you need to open your mind. I think it was completely believable Nucky taking on his brother. Just cuz someone is a big mouth doesnt make em tougher, which is what I think work with Buscemi's Nucky well, he's not prototypical but still commands scenes well. Plus Eli and Knox were trying to kill each other, from the beginning of that fight i knew one of them were not gonna make it. The brother fight was just that... a brother...
 

Kadayi

Banned
you need to open your mind. I think it was completely believable Nucky taking on his brother. Just cuz someone is a big mouth doesnt make em tougher, which is what I think work with Buscemi's Nucky well, he's not prototypical but still commands scenes well. Plus Eli and Knox were trying to kill each other, from the beginning of that fight i knew one of them were not gonna make it. The brother fight was just that... a brother...

If you breathed hard on Buscemi he'd fall over. He's never sold a scene where he's tried to talk or act big with anyone either in BE or anything else for that matter. He's great at the one liners, raised eyebrow & droll stuff sure, but he's so physically inconsequential that the notion of him intimidating anyone, let alone beating them in a fist fight is hard to take seriously. The fisticuffs he had with the guy up in New York over the actress was equally insipid.

Originally the intention was to cast James Gandolfini for the part because he had physical presence, but they opted out on it because they felt there was too much carry through from Tony Soprano and it being another Gangster role. Now I think they were wise not to go with that option because of the carry through, but in terms of physicality that's more what the role requires. They needed a bear of a man, someone who could be gentlemanly, but also someone who could actually put the fear of god into people if he wanted to.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
If you breathed hard on Buscemi he'd fall over. He's never sold a scene where he's tried to talk or act big with anyone either in BE or anything else for that matter. He's great at the one liners, raised eyebrow & droll stuff sure, but he's so physically inconsequential that the notion of him intimidating anyone, let alone beating them in a fist fight is hard to take seriously. The fisticuffs he had with the guy up in New York over the actress was equally insipid.

Originally the intention was to cast James Gandolfini for the part because he had physical presence, but they opted out on it because they felt there was too much carry through from Tony Soprano and it being another Gangster role. Now I think they were wise not to go with that option because of the carry through, but in terms of physicality that's more what the role requires. They needed a bear of a man, someone who could be gentlemanly, but also someone who could actually put the fear of god into people if he wanted to.

Stephen Graham would've made a great Nucky, and the guy who plays his brother Ralph (Domenick Lombardozzi) would've likewise been a fantastic Al. Graham is amazing, but he doesn't have the physical presence Capone had in real life (he was a gigantic and overweight guy, Graham is neither, while Domenick is).

Just my personal observation.
 
Stephen Graham would've made a great Nucky, and the guy who plays his brother Ralph (Domenick Lombardozzi) would've likewise been a fantastic Al. Graham is amazing, but he doesn't have the physical presence Capone had in real life (he was a gigantic and overweight guy, Graham is neither, while Domenick is).

Just my personal observation.

Al wasn't huge by any means (5'10"), but yeah Graham is pretty small (5'5"). I think Graham kills it as Capone though, so entertaining to watch.

Not sure if it was Marty or Terence or both, but it did come out that they originally wanted Alec Baldwin to play Nucky. I assume that would've probably resulted in a significantly different character than the one Buscemi plays.
 
I think Buscemi's very good in it but it's not what he's best at; reservoir dogs and Fargo are him at his best. Ghost world was a more reserved performance but that and Boardwalk let him shine best when there's comedy. He gets some very funny lines in BE to be honest, the one about Eli being arrested for cancelling a meeting was hilarious.
This is why I love him. His interactions with Eddie and his new guy are usually hilarious.
 

Dany

Banned
Bring back Esther Randolph. And Katie. Oh poor Katie. She must have been devastated to learn of Owen's demise.

I still miss Owen.

Mr. Sleater.

Mrs. Thompson.


;_;
tumblr_mdr2xw3EXU1qaio2lo1_250.gif


tumblr_mdr2xw3EXU1qaio2lo3_r2_250.gif



GAH ;(
 
I miss Owen as a character but as soon as he started fucking Margaret I didn't care what happened to him.

I don't think so, man. The sound of the kids freaking out upstairs is what made that fight scene so brutal -- the agent would likely have killed the entire family if he offed Eli.

It was definitely the most satisfying. Hearing the cold thuds of the punch on the agents face got my blood pumping. You felt every hit and the emotion behind it. It was crazy powerful.
 

Dany

Banned
I don't think so, man. The sound of the kids freaking out upstairs is what made that fight scene so brutal -- the agent would likely have killed the entire family if he offed Eli.

Seriously, i kept wonder if his wife was still on the stairs, it was just brutal all around
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Al wasn't huge by any means (5'10"), but yeah Graham is pretty small (5'5"). I think Graham kills it as Capone though, so entertaining to watch.

Not sure if it was Marty or Terence or both, but it did come out that they originally wanted Alec Baldwin to play Nucky. I assume that would've probably resulted in a significantly different character than the one Buscemi plays.

Right Capone was quite a bit taller, but by huge I meant that he was a lot fatter too. They try to bulk up Graham with extra clothing, but like I said, it's the actor who plays Ralph that's the solid ringer for the real Capone.
 
I always though the guy who plays George Remus looks more like Al Capone in real life than Stephen Graham.

I still love Graham as Capone though.

Edit: Got all the Boardwalk Empire dvds for ten bucks a pop, thanks Black Friday!
 

Kallor

Member
I always though the guy who plays George Remus looks more like Al Capone in real life than Stephen Graham.

I still love Graham as Capone though.

Edit: Got all the Boardwalk Empire dvds for ten bucks a pop, thanks Black Friday!

I got the Blu-ray-DVD-Digital set for$16 each. Hoping the series get two more seasons at least.
 

Saty

Member
Let me start out with the necessary politeness: Thank you for the reply. I'm glad you are willing to continue to engage us. No, that's not sarcasm; I'm dead serious.
And thank you for at least trying to lay out your point of view.

You're objecting to there being some sort of happenstance that leaks the existence of the plot against Nucky, but they saying that you'd have preferred that Gaston Means -- whose interference was also happenstance -- have been the reason that the plot was revealed? I can't know, obviously, but I suspect that if Nucky had gotten himself out of it with the help of Means you'd have been lodging essentially the same complaint, no? Something along the lines of "why did the plot's existence have to be handed to him by Means?".

I'm not sure how you understood that. I specified that Means tipping off Nucky was already too convenient (escaping the FBI's watch and calling Nucky) but even letting that slide, Nucky should have then acted on that information and started a shakedown to find the mole. What he did though was a short chat with Eli and Will and nothing more til Eli's wife gift-wrapped Nucky the person. (i'm not even going into how stupid it was for Knox to visit Eli in his house).

I'm disappointed you've centered on this and haven't commented of why Nucky must be saved or the method in which shows does so.

So what i ask of you or anyone else for that matter is to try to help me and reconcile two facts:

1. Boardwalk Empire is frequently lauded with praise by most posters here in regards to writing and plotting, and is seen as one of the best TV shows on air.

2. Boardwalk Empire has repeatedly showcased poor writing and plot development\resolution. Those faults are probably of the worst kind a narrative could make.

Examples: This last episode counts as the 4th time the show's main character has been spared of death or incarceration in the 11th hour by events that could only be referred to as 'luck', 'happenstance' or 'coincidence'. The main character in all four instances was a passive entity that had no inkling of it's impending doom and which played zero active part in its survival. Thing just happened to the character instead of it taking initiative; crucial information fell to to its lap which it didn't seek for or instigate.

It's baffling to me that i should be the one defending the notion that having your main character saved by a string of coincidences that would have Eli's wife blabber too much at dinner and practically give up the mole signed, sealed and delivered is a bad form of writing and immensely undesired and unsatisfying resolution to the plot. You are the ones who should make a case why Boardwalk Empire should be considered a well-written show in light of the show's bad writing habits.

In this bizarro world, i'm the one who's ridiculed. Every one you would have been the first to raise the same criticism as mine on any other show that would have displayed the same writing weakness BE so apparently does. But for some reason, on this show, it doesn't happen. I don't recall many people even saying 'i enjoy it despite this' or 'i agree, but i still like x y z'. Boardwalk Empire's faults just go unmentioned and unrecognized. There is an elephant in the room that isn't discussed.

Do i really need to explain why the way Nucky realized who is the mole is frustrating? Do i really need to explain they botched that? It's amazing how easy it is to come with better way for Nucky to find out as it seems part of the season was built for that. Eddie's arch was a perfect setup for what should have happened in the last 1-2 episodes.

After Eddie was absent for a whole night and then died, Nucky couldn't but suspect Eddie sold him to the feds. Their years upon years of friendship couldn't shake that feeling out of Nucky's mind that's being set-up by him. Nucky recognizing it himself in Tampa was a step, but that was quickly shoved away in favor of a sexual encounter.

So now, when another possibility of a mole comes up they could have easily built on Eddie's case.
You can even have the same dinner, the wife says what she says. Nucky hears it and is piqued. Now, the writers can take it two ways.

1. After the incident with Eddie where Nucky chided himself for thinking he could have ratted on him, he refuses to be suspicious of his brother and lets it go. He puts his trust in Eli and in the end of the episode he is betrayed by him and arrested. I don't think i need to specify how that advances Eli's and Nucky's characters and how it changes the dynamics, relationships and the rest of the show.

2. After the incident with Eddie, Nucky still can't help but suspect a plot against him when things smell fishy. No matter how he tries, he can't. Even if those suspicions are directed towards his brother. He hears the wife and dinner and takes note. He later confronts her and threatens\pressures her to give more info (maybe id-ing Knox picture\portrait). They show that Nucky values his safety and the safety of his business the most, even above family ties.

Any of these two directions would have been far superior to what we got, would have furthered characters, would have been a major fork in the road, would have been of high importance and consequence, fitting a season's finale.

What we actually got was a pathetic afterthought of a solution that treated two of the season's biggest arcs as a nuisance that just needed to disappear with little thought about how.


Another example: The show pits Nucky and Eli against each other. Nucky gets him alone and is now facing a major decision - do i kill my brother or not. How does BE resolve that situation? Is it by Nucky committing either way? No, they take the decision out of his hands and have someone interrupt the scene for no merit. If you want Eli alive then why not have Nucky reluctantly leave him so? Why is this confrontation tied up in the least interesting and in the cheapest manner? Why not use that moment to further shape Nucky's character? How is the actual solution that the writers picked can be seen as a 'good' one?

--
So i ask you. How am i to reconcile this discrepancy (if at all)? Seems to me as the seasons go buy the elephant grows larger and the room grows smaller.
 

RaidenZR

Member
Lots of text.

I don't have time this second to respond to your whole post, but you do bring up good points and I do think it warrants further off-and-on-season discussion.

However, I just wanted to chime in and say I think you're making a bigger deal out of the dinner scene (where June mentions the insurance salesman) than I would, personally. I didn't read it the same way as you at all... I saw it as June joking at her husband's expense (they've established this exists and that Nucky frequents their family dinners), then we see Eli overreacting and giving his own ass away (also well-established at this point). This has more to do with Eli just being fairly stupid and struggling with the guilt/betrayal issues again.

In summary: Less about Nucky's luck or any reoccurring happenstance, and more about Eli being a self-tormented moron.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
Ratsky, how come you focus so much on female characters? Strong interest in women of this era? I guess that's a safe assumption.

Mmm, I don't know. I think it's because most of the time I find their stories to be more relatable than the guys'. Also, seeing the women's point of view of the 20s (and their relation to the crime world and the men who run it) is inherently more interesting to me than watching another straightforward gangster story play out for the millionth time. Boardwalk Empire feels like a much more original and unique show when the women (or Harrow) are front and center.

Haven't posted much in this thread for this season, but it seems like there's much less misogyny in here compared to previous years.

Yes, well, the roles and importance of the female characters have been drastically reduced this season, so there's not much for people to complain about.

And yeah, Paz ain't coming back.

Never say never!
 

Socreges

Banned
I don't have time this second to respond to your whole post, but you do bring up good points and I do think it warrants further off-and-on-season discussion.

However, I just wanted to chime in and say I think you're making a bigger deal out of the dinner scene (where June mentions the insurance salesman) than I would, personally. I didn't read it the same way as you at all... I saw it as June joking at her husband's expense (they've established this exists and that Nucky frequents their family dinners), then we see Eli overreacting and giving his own ass away (also well-established at this point). This has more to do with Eli just being fairly stupid and struggling with the guilt/betrayal issues again.

In summary: Less about Nucky's luck or any reoccurring happenstance, and more about Eli being a self-tormented moron.
Which ones? I'm curious. I love discussion of Boardwalk's merits and shortfalls, but I've admittedly given up hope on Saty since his arguments are so insipid and contrived. He'd imagine these problems that on the surface may seem to be cogent arguments, but he'd always (deliberately?) ignore important facts in order to make the complaint possible.

I'm sorry but no one watches at least two full seasons of a show that they complain about at length at the end of every episode without having some sort of agenda. I gave the guy a chance but it's become increasingly obvious that he gets something out of this dynamic. If this forum didn't exist, I think he might actually enjoy the show!
 

Saty

Member
Which ones? I'm curious.
If i may say so myself the main ones are:

1. Finding about the FBI's plan and elimination of the threat should have been the result of Nucky's diligence; not being handed the solution. The way he would have gotten the information should have harnessed and called back to Eddie's arc instead of totally disregarding it.

2. Eli's fate should have been determined entirely by Nucky once they put the two in that situation rather than by Will barging in.

3. Knox should have never visited Eli in his home. Isn't that the purpose of meeting in the restaurant? What if Nucky was to make a surprise visit? Why if any other person who works for Nucky and knows Knox came in? There's a reason why such meetings don't take place in the informant's house. All that for the cliche 'look how it easy it for me to get to your family, so you better deliver' intimidation. That's a stupid and basic mistake for someone in Knox's position and that turned out to be the lazy and cheap manner the writers used to shut the plan down.

--
Don't worry, i've expressed my disappointed with the finale in other circles as well. I've taken the back seat in this season's discussion actually. I was far less active than in S3, partly because this season did fair somewhat better, but the last two episodes and especially the finale brought back the show's ugly side with a vengeance that couldn't go unmentioned.
 
Just ran through the last 4 eps. What a great run to a great finale. Lots of really tense scenes throughout.

RIP Harrow. What a heartbreaking end to a great and tragic character.
 
Just got through to watching this and HARROW! :(

What a kick in the balls, 'Hey look he's alive and on the train!"

"lol nope!"

Goddamn this show. Sometimes I think the only person who will survive in this show will be Micky Doyle (which would be hilarious).
 

mr stroke

Member
Finally got around to marathoning the last 5 eps and what a great finale as always.


Anyone know how long HBO plans on keeping the show around, I can't imagine there is much story left other than 1-2 more seasons?
 
Deadwood
Dan dority
Fight

You know your TV fights. Deadwood's was fucking great...

Don't agree with the Nucky or better yet Buschemi hate. The role is about power (not literally) & fear not being a supreme bad ass. Its worked for me so far.

And this week needs to end so the finale isn't on HBO as much. I've seen the ending 7-8 times now, so good yet so sad...Depresses me
 
Finally got around to marathoning the last 5 eps and what a great finale as always.


Anyone know how long HBO plans on keeping the show around, I can't imagine there is much story left other than 1-2 more seasons?

Well season 4 took place in 1925 and prohibition ended in 1933. So they've still got quite a lot of time to fill in if they want to go till the end of the era. Personally, I think one or two more seasons is enough however.
 
Well season 4 took place in 1925 and prohibition ended in 1933. So they've still got quite a lot of time to fill in if they want to go till the end of the era. Personally, I think one or two more seasons is enough however.

I thought season 4 took place in 1924? If they want to end the show with the end of prohibition they're going to have to do some pretty hefty time jumps then in the next two seasons, considering Winters has said he hopes the show lasts 6 seasons. It'll be exciting to see what happens though.
 
I usually shy away from posting stuff from dubious sources, but I thought I'd throw this one out there since it's the off season and we don't have a ton of other content to discuss until casting starts rolling in the Spring.

This is sourced off of 4Chan, but apparently the poster has posted some inside info in the past. In any case, take it with a grain (a shaker?) of salt. Via Warming Glow:
According to this source, the next season of Boardwalk Empire will likely be its last. Even more distressing is the fact that it will probably only get eight to 10 episodes to wrap up. Showrunner Terence Winter is apparently anxious to move ahead on his other project, a 1970′s rock n’ roll drama for HBO with Martin Scorsese and Breaking Bad’s George Mastras, which will star Bobby Cannavale as Mick Jagger. The number of episodes in next season of Boardwalk is not, however, official:
It’s not official yet. It’s just rumblings I’ve heard throughout the office. First it was 10 episodes, then maybe 9 and now I believe they’ve settled on 8. This probably won’t be announced for some time until HBO figures out their schedule and budgets I’m sure but I’ve been told that 5 will be the last season.
Could be real or it could be a bunch of bullshit. I guess we'll find out sometime next year. There's also a few hilarious/cringe-worthy stories about Paz de la Huerta and Michael Pitt via the link as well as some info on Winter's next project.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
I usually shy away from posting stuff from dubious sources, but I thought I'd throw this one out there since it's the off season and we don't have a ton of other content to discuss until casting starts rolling in the Spring.

This is sourced off of 4Chan, but apparently the poster has posted some inside info in the past. In any case, take it with a grain (a shaker?) of salt. Via Warming Glow:Could be real or it could be a bunch of bullshit. I guess we'll find out sometime next year. There's also a few hilarious/cringe-worthy stories about Paz de la Huerta and Michael Pitt via the link as well as some info on Winter's next project.

It better be bullshit.
 
Could be real or it could be a bunch of bullshit. I guess we'll find out sometime next year. There's also a few hilarious/cringe-worthy stories about Paz de la Huerta and Michael Pitt via the link as well as some info on Winter's next project.

Eh, five seasons is a fine run for any show.

Really funny stories about Paz/Pitt.
 

RatskyWatsky

Hunky Nostradamus
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if those stories were true. I would, however, be disappointed if it only received an 8 episode order though. There's just too much story left to wrap up in 8 episodes. Don't be cheapskates HBO!

On Paz:

She would come drugged up to set. Would walk around naked (not that that’s a bad thing), she would
shave her pu**y
in front of crew, she had her
period one time
and asked the AD (assistant director) for a tissue for her
“pu**y”
and then she left said
bloody tissue
on set and in the bathroom. This one time she made a PA go into the bathroom with her and made the girl PA hold her hand while she took a sh*t.

holy shit!!

On Pitt:

[Pitt was] late a lot (this costs production money), [he had] trouble remembering lines (they had to reshoot an entire scene because he couldn’t remember his lines…this costs production money), [was] constantly questioning his character’s storyline, tried to change dialogue a lot, would wander from the set, got into a little fist fight with William Forsythe during the Jimmy death scene, etc. They had plans for him and Angela’s character [to move to New York] but they pretty much just got tired of him.

Wow. Damn. Jimmy and Angela in New York would have been really great.

A few more interesting tidbits:

They changed Willie twice. They didn't think the original Willie could handle this seasons storyline. They brought in a new Willie. Had him film Episode 1. HBO didn't like him. They brought in another Willie. Re-shot all of the Episode 1 scenes with Willie with this new one. The one you see now is the final form of Willie.

Season 3 they were seriously considering keeping Gyp but they just couldn't think of a realistic way to do so.

Harrow's people are more than likely done. Gillian, might be too but too early to tell.
 

Saty

Member
I want to believe. Would explain why they stupidly disposed of Darmody - the actor didn't leave them any choice.
 

megamerican

Member
I like Boardwalk but it never recovered after losing Darmody. Those examples of his behavior do not seem outrageous, especially in Hollywood terms. I remember hearing a lot worse rumors about Gandolfini.

I would be fine with ending the show next season. The 70s music industry show sounds more interesting quite frankly. But it you describe anything as Mad Men meets Boogie Nights it's bound to sound good.
 
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