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[Mandark]

Some excellent perspective from McCarthy over at NRO. (skip it if you're not a conservative wingnut)

fixed

When Max f'n Boot has to be the voice of reason, it's probably time to find a new calling.

 

[SUPREME1]

They were showing pics of her from her younger days.. late 80s, early 90s.. Very pretty woman. Did she have children?

What happened to her husband? Is he still in the picture? I know he was jailed and all that, but wasn't he released?

What a shame..

 

[Atomic]

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Benazir Bhutto died as a result of a fractured skull after hitting her head on part of her car's sun roof, not as a result of a bullet or bomb shrapnel, a spokesman for Pakistan's Interior Ministry said Friday.

Nothing entered the opposition leader's head, said spokesman Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema.

At a news conference, Cheema showed images of Bhutto in a car, standing up through an open sunroof, looking out at the crowd as she was about to be driven away.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/pakistan.friday/index.html






The Pakistani Interior Ministry said Friday the suicide bomber who killed Benazir Bhutto has been identified as belonging to a militant group with links to al Qaeda, Pakistan's GEO TV reported.


An Italian news agency says al Qaeda's Ayman al-Zawahiri began planning the Pakistan killing in October.

There was no sign the group has claimed responsibility for the attack on the Pakistan opposition leader.

The U.S. State Department lists Lashkar-e-Jhangvi as a terrorist organization and said it had links to the Taliban. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf banned the group in 2001.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/28/bhutto.dhs.alqaeda/index.html

 

[scorcho]

it seems a bit fishy as it contradicts the earlier reports. according to what i read there were two/three audible shots fired before the bomb exploded. also, no one bothered to conduct an actual autopsy, as it seem the Pakistani government tried to expedite everything and literally shove her out of the hospital and back to her family. and while there are obvious reasons why religious extremists would target Bhutto, this seems all too tidy for the government and the army.

 

[SUPREME1]

Lol. Riiight.


She gets shot in the neck, collapses into the car.. and she dies from bumping her head on the way back into the car?

Ahhh.. NO.


Concusion, maybe. Death? No.

She was shot in the neck and a bomb went off near her, but she dies from a knock on the head? Especially considering she probably went limp after being shot, which would have lessend the impact to the head.


Lol, this is something I've come to expect from the White House. But it isn't even them saying so?

 

[scorcho]

some in the blogosphere are thinking the same thing - http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2007/dec/28/al_qaeda_did_it

I do not rule out Islamic radicals who are not part of the government as possible culprits. But they are not the only folks with motive and access. In fact, the Government of Pakistan’s rush to pin this on Al Qaeda smacks of scape goating. There are longstanding ties between Al Qaeda and elements of the military and the intelligence service.

 

[VanMardigan]

Lol. Riiight.
She gets shot in the neck, collapses into the car.. and she dies from bumping her head on the way back into the car?
Ahhh.. NO.

No, the force of the blast made her head crash against a lever for the sunroof inside the car. The bullets missed, so did shrapnel, but the blast force itself knocked her head into a lever, which cracked her skull (among other things). Probably just as she was ducking into the car, which corresponds with what the photographer was saying (about the shots being immediately followed by the blast).

 

[Azih]

Lord, conspiracy theories would be the worst thing for Pakistan at the moment, if Musharraf had any sense he would let all kinda of international investigators crawl all over the place.

 

[140.85]

t"let's throw together a bunch of half-truths so we can bash brown people"

that article is offensively fear-mongering claptrap, fuck

fixed

HEY, I KNOW...LETS BOMB 'EM

:lol

When Max f'n Boot has to be the voice of reason, it's probably time to find a new calling.

Thank you. That and the TNR responses are interesting reads although they get some stuff wrong and I disagree with their conclusions.

 

[HomShaBom]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2be_1198873248

 

[FightyF]

:lol

I don't think it's funny. Such blatant ignorance shouldn't be tolerated, and shouldn't be the basis of anyone's opinion.

 

[whytemyke]

I don't think it's funny. Such blatant ignorance shouldn't be tolerated, and shouldn't be the basis of anyone's opinion.

given the person who posted the article I don't think anyone actually expects high-level debate regarding, you know... anything.

 

[140.85]

I don't think it's funny. Such blatant ignorance shouldn't be tolerated, and shouldn't be the basis of anyone's opinion.

Zero tolerance of opinions you disagree with? Wow.

Anyway, my apologies for my brevity. The reason I find it funny is because the responses are so typical. Identifying our enemy is racism, trying to keep a sober view of a dangerous world is fear-mongering, almost any desire to destroy evil (if you believe in such a thing) is "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" neocon wingnuttery, etc. etc. (oh no wait chickenhawkery, there we go).

For me this is true ignorance.

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Been watching that liveleak vid, cant see shit really, reading somewhere they recon she hit her head ducking and died because she hit her head, all very bizarre.

 

[FightyF]

Zero tolerance of opinions you disagree with? Wow.

It's not only that I disagree with it, but reality does as well.

So if someone wants to write a piece of fiction, so be it, I'm cool with that.

But when that person wants to portray this fiction as fact, THEN I take issue with it.

Anyway, my apologies for my brevity. The reason I find it funny is because the responses are so typical. Identifying our enemy is racism,

The enemy has already been identified, very clearly and succinctly. The definition of the enemy on the part of neocons IS racism because it is BASED ON IGNORANCE.

trying to keep a sober view of a dangerous world is fear-mongering, almost any desire to destroy evil (if you believe in such a thing) is "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" neocon wingnuttery, etc. etc. (oh no wait chickenhawkery, there we go).

Anyone asking for someone to "kill" over 40% of Pakistan's population is a fucking retard. Nevermind those other labels, "fucking retard" fits the bill perfectly.

For me this is true ignorance.

If I find something to be contradictory to reality, I'm not ignoring it, I'm dispelling it and telling you that it has no merit.

The article you posted has no merit. The article Mandark posted sums up why, perfectly.

Yes, bin Laden scores 46 percent approval, but Bhutto, a symbol of opposition to the Islamists, scored considerably higher—63 percent. And: “Seventy-five percent of poll respondents said suicide bombings are rarely or never justified.”

So to label 46% of Pakistan's population as people who deserve to die, while considering all those other facts revealed in that poll, is completely illogical.

 

[monchi-kun]

Been watching that liveleak vid, cant see shit really, reading somewhere they recon she hit her head ducking and died because she hit her head, all very bizarre.

concussion at most...but then again we'll never really know

 

[ItAintEasyBeinCheesy]

Has the makings of a good conspiracy.

 

[VanMardigan]

Been watching that liveleak vid, cant see shit really, reading somewhere they recon she hit her head ducking and died because she hit her head, all very bizarre.

That's not really what the "official" explanation is now. It's a misunderstanding of what the Pakistani government is saying, which is that the blast crashed her head against a lever for the sunroof. I already explained it above, but maybe a quote will gather more attention:

President Pervez Musharraf's government also said Bhutto was not killed by gunshots or shrapnel as originally claimed. Instead, it said her skull was shattered by the force of a suicide bomb blast that slammed her against a lever in her car's sunroof.

 

[scorcho]

140.85, so ignoring ignorance is further ignorance? how delicious!

 

[CrushDance]

Lord, conspiracy theories would be the worst thing for Pakistan at the moment, if Musharraf had any sense he would let all kinda of international investigators crawl all over the place.

Why? It's his country. It's their country. They can do whatever they want, we all understand that this is a sensitive issue, but this isn't something that other countries should be involved in.

All countries have had assassinations, this isn't the first. I'm sure the Pakistani people will figure something out. This may be the catalyst for change.

 

[devilscallmedad]

Why? It's his country. It's their country. They can do whatever they want, we all understand that this is a sensitive issue, but this isn't something that other countries should be involved in.

All countries have had assassinations, this isn't the first. I'm sure the Pakistani people will figure something out. This may be the catalyst for change.

Azih there has a point, the popular opinion here among the public is that Musharaf/Chaudary's of Punjab were involved and people really won't trust an investigation by the local authorities.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Musharref prob did it.

My first thought when i heard she died.

Al Qaeda my ass.

 

[bob_arctor]

My first thought when i heard she died.

Al Qaeda my ass.

Militants, Bhutto aides allege cover-up

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - An Islamic militant group said Saturday it had no link to Benazir Bhutto's killing and the opposition leader's aides accused the government of a cover-up, disputing the official account of her death.

Bhutto's Pakistan Peoples Party accused the government of trying to frame Mehsud, saying the militant — through emissaries — had previously told Bhutto he was not involved in the Karachi bombing.

________________________________________________

Identifying our enemy is racism

…(Rudy Giuliani has) the knowledge and judgment to attack one of the most difficult problems in current history. And that is the rise of the Muslims. And make no mistake about it, this hasn’t happened for a thousand years. These people are very, very dedicated. They’re also very smart, in their own way. And we need to keep the feet to the fire and keep pressing these people ‘til we defeat them or chase them back to their caves, or in other words, get rid of them.

 

[scorcho]

there really is zero incentive in Musharraf ordering her killing. the international opprobrium he'd face would be harsh and her death really wouldn't serve him such a large benefit. there are a wealth of actors within the Pakistani military who hated her guts and stood to lose their power/status with a Bhutto presidency. any of them could've called the hit, and Musharraf deserves some blame for refusing to provide Bhutto, who was an obvious assassination target, with adequate security support.

a friend of mine (an Afghani lawyer who's well versed in the region) said it wouldn't even be beyond the pale to find out that Sharif was involved in her murder, as he stands to gain the biggest success in the elections now.

edit: John Deady is amazing. Rudy's the only candidate who will drive muslims back to their caves!

 

[Mandark]

If it were someone within the military or PML-Q, then Musharraf might decide a cover-up is in his best interests, even if he had no knowledge beforehand.

I don't think he'd want to make the case that hey, factions within my power base were responsible, but you should still support me and those institutions. That wouldn't be an easy sell.

 

[bob_arctor]

Identifying our enemy is racism

Asked if he stood by his remarks, John Deady replies:

I most assuredly do. I've been very concerned about this Muslim thing for quite awhile. The average American does not know beans about what the Muslims are about. I am talking about the Muslims in general. I don't subscribe to the principle that there are good Muslims and bad Muslims. They're all Muslims.

/end derail.

 

[scorcho]

more derail!

He's (Guiliani) got I believe the knowledge and the judgment to attack one of the most difficult problems in current history and that is the rise of the Muslims, and make no mistake about it, this hasn't happened for a thousand years. These people are very dedicated and they're also very very smart in their own way. We need to keep the feet to the fire and keep pressing these people until we defeat or chase them back to their caves or in other words get rid of them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/video/2007/dec/27/primaries.rudy.guiliani

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

more derail!



http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/video/2007/dec/27/primaries.rudy.guiliani

that was awsome

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

more derail!



http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/video/2007/dec/27/primaries.rudy.guiliani

:/

 

[APF]

I'm no Muslim, says Barack Obama

PLEASANTVILLE, Iowa - A day before he will fly back to Chicago to spend Christmas with his family, a voter asked Barack Obama to explain his "Muslim background" - an Internet-fed fallacy that continues to dog his campaign.

Becky Michael, 58, accepted Obama's assurances Saturday that he is Christian. But her reasons for asking showed the trouble the rumor can cause the Illinois senator.

"It's not so important that he is a Christian, although I'm very thankful he is," said Michael. "But it's very important that he's not a Muslim."

[...]

Asked by Michael to define what being a Christian is, Obama said, "Somebody who believes in Jesus Christ as our lord and savior."

"I'm so glad," Michael replied.

After talking with Obama, Michael, who was wearing a white sweatshirt with the words "I believe in Angels" on it, told the Daily News she "appreciated his honesty, his forthrightness."

"I'm glad I got an answer because the Middle East is being run by the Muslims. And their kind of freedom is not the freedom that America has fought for all our lives, and I want to know that the next President of the United States, if it's Barack Obama, will be fighting for the freedom that America has fought for."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2007/12/23/2007-12-23_im_no_muslim_says_barack_obama.html

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2007/12/23/2007-12-23_im_no_muslim_says_barack_obama.html

more awsomenessism

 

[scorcho]

while i'm sure every candidate has their own pockets of bigots/racists/pimps as supporters, it should be noted that the person bob and i are quoting is co-chair of New Hampshire Veterans for Rudy, making the statements a bit more noteworthy.

 

[APF]

Still, a large amount of Obama supporters have claimed that highlighting any links he may have to the religion would be a "smear campaign."


Edit: unless of course, it allows Obama to claim it gives him some miraculous insight into how "those people" think...

 

[scorcho]

are they taking issue with claiming links (which obama himself has acknowledged), or the sensationalist garbage masquerading as the truth?

edit: maybe a topic for another thread?

 

[cashman]

a friend of mine (an Afghani lawyer who's well versed in the region) said it wouldn't even be beyond the pale to find out that Sharif was involved in her murder, as he stands to gain the biggest success in the elections now.

My dad also has this theory.

 

[ronito]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/29/us/politics/29check.html?_r=1&hpid=1&oref=slogin

Mr. Huckabee said Friday that “we have more Pakistani illegals coming across our border than all other nationalities, except those immediately south of the border.”

 

[bob_arctor]

are they taking issue with claiming links (which obama himself has acknowledged), or the sensationalist garbage masquerading as the truth?

edit: maybe a topic for another thread?

Man. What the fuck is wrong with people?

 

[APF]

Those Oprah forums are worse than here. Neither the Obama folks or the anti-Obama folks come across as particularly uh... sane.

 

[effzee]

oprah has forums? WTF?

anyway im not sure who is behind this but i would assume that it is Al Qaeda or some group related to them. they warned her b4 she came to pakistan they would kill her since she is seen as a american agent. they tried to kill her in karachi. musharaf even cancelled a event of hers earlier because of inadequate security.

seriously musharaf does not stand to gain anything from this. he was on his way to forgiving all charges against her and doing a power sharing deal. if anything this is horrible for him because now his country is rioting (the scene in my city of karachi is terrible) and the intl community is on pakistans ass now as if they ever cared.

my dads been on the phone with our fam in karachi and they are saying all of the damage in pakistan from the rioting and looting...more than half of it is in karachi. they are scared to go out and ppl are dying.

 

[Link1110]

oprah has forums? WTF?

They're like GAF only the soccer moms complain about the low NPD numbers for the latest Oprah Book Club entries and argue endlessly about how Ford makes better suvs than GMC.

 

[140.85]

Attack of the straw men total. Please link to where I defended this poor Deady fellow Bobby.

 

[fse]

did anyone watch the vid where see says bin laden was murdered?
wow, if true...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4TeYyHt3JZ4

 

[scorcho]

TPM has done a really nice job picking up observations on the assassination -

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/062262.php

while not conclusive evidence alone that bullets struck Bhutto, the quick veil and hair movement, along with the limp fall following the shots is pretty damning to Pakistan gov't denials.

and for a possible reason why Pakistan gov't officials seem really concerned with the minutiae of her death -

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/062222.php

The bonk on the head theory is ridiculous on many levels, not simply on that of implausibility, but because it makes her a potential object of ridicule, mockery and the manner of her death somehow ignoble. That would be a pretty harsh take, certainly; but they seem to play pretty rough over there.

 

[Analog Bandit]

Bhutto's son new leader of PPP
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/world/asia/30cnd-pakistan.html?ref=world

Great more corruption.

 

[Shoho]

they just killed the best leader in all of the middle east. she could have accomplished so much. I cant believe that her 19 year old son is going to be the new candidate for the elections. whats her party thinking?


poor goddam kid. his mother just died... his mom who happened to be the most inspiring middle eastern politician in god knows how many years... and now he has to carry that entire weight too. its so unbeliveable unfair. poor goddam kid. 19 years old. f**k it man. no people deserve that.
Im not religious but I will pray for this kid. I hope he can handle it and that he wont get assasinated.



benazir bhutto requested more security you know. she accused the goverment of willingly doing to little about the security. its probably the saudi goverment thats behind it. i dont believe thats its Al-Quida(havent they been wiped out by now?)

 

[bionic77]

When was it decided that Benazir Bhutto was the best leader of the Middle East?

And when did Pakistan become part of the Middle East?

 

[Enron]

they just killed the best leader in all of the middle east. she could have accomplished so much. I cant believe that her 19 year old son is going to be the new candidate for the elections. whats her party thinking?


poor goddam kid. his mother just died... his mom who happened to be the most inspiring middle eastern politician in god knows how many years... and now he has to carry that entire weight too. its so unbeliveable unfair. poor goddam kid. 19 years old. f**k it man. no people deserve that.
Im not religious but I will pray for this kid. I hope he can handle it and that he wont get assasinated.



benazir bhutto requested more security you know. she accused the goverment of willingly doing to little about the security. its probably the saudi goverment thats behind it. i dont believe thats its Al-Quida(havent they been wiped out by now?)

facepalm.jpg

 

[Shoho]

When was it decided that Benazir Bhutto was the best leader of the Middle East?

And when did Pakistan become part of the Middle East?

you think its part of the far east?



I think the far east is places like = malaysia, indonesia, korea, china, japan, burma, cambodia, thailand, india.



I dont know if benazir was the best leader of the middle east. I guess I personally think so. I cant think of a woman(which does not put the odds in her favor since she is living in that part of the world) who has accomplished as much as her, on her terms.

It really looked like to me that she wanted to create stability and peace.

 

[Analog Bandit]

you think its part of the far east?



I think the far east is places like = malaysia, indonesia, korea, china, japan, burma, cambodia, thailand, india.



I dont know if benazir was the best leader of the middle east. I guess I personally think so. I cant think of a woman(which does not put the odds in her favor since she is living in that part of the world) who has accomplished as much as her, on her terms.

It really looked like to me that she wanted to create stability and peace.

South East = malaysia, indonesia, burma, cambodia, thailand.
South Asia = India, Pakistan

 

[scorcho]

benazir bhutto requested more security you know. she accused the goverment of willingly doing to little about the security. its probably the saudi goverment thats behind it. i dont believe thats its Al-Quida(havent they been wiped out by now?)

so it really is a killer...with a conscience?